Re: The inability to lactate

[Guest guest]

> So now I'm wondering - is it possible the

> increasing inability to breastfeed

> found in America is simply a byproduct of

> inadequate mammary development

> caused by inadequate nutrition during puberty?

I think you are right, Lana. Byron s talks about the effects of

bad nutrition in both utero and at puberty, and it makes all the sense

in the world that it would then affect fertility and lactation. Very

sad.

[Guest guest]

Lana-

> So now I'm wondering - is it possible the increasing inability to

> breastfeed

> found in America is simply a byproduct of inadequate mammary

> development

> caused by inadequate nutrition during puberty?

Somewhat OT, but I'm reminded of the time a few years ago when I

suggested that mammary development surely has a physiological purpose

and then got slammed left and right for sexism and for projecting my

own (imagined) preference for humungous breasts onto nutritional and

health issues. Which is to say, I expect that you're basically right,

though I'm not sure that the problem period is necessarily restricted

to puberty, though it could be.

-

[Guest guest]

,

> Lana-

>

>> So now I'm wondering - is it possible the increasing inability to

>> breastfeed

>> found in America is simply a byproduct of inadequate mammary

>> development

>> caused by inadequate nutrition during puberty?

>

> Somewhat OT, but I'm reminded of the time a few years ago when I

> suggested that mammary development surely has a physiological purpose

> and then got slammed left and right for sexism and for projecting my

> own (imagined) preference for humungous breasts onto nutritional and

> health issues. Which is to say, I expect that you're basically right,

> though I'm not sure that the problem period is necessarily restricted

> to puberty, though it could be.

LOL!

And I remember warning you early on in that thread that you were

stepping into some deep doodoo with your comments which I think

encompassed both butts and breasts <weg>

..

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist

[Guest guest]

> > Somewhat OT, but I'm reminded of the time a few years ago when I

> > suggested that mammary development surely has a physiological purpose

> > and then got slammed left and right for sexism and for projecting my

> > own (imagined) preference for humungous breasts onto nutritional and

> > health issues. Which is to say, I expect that you're basically right,

> > though I'm not sure that the problem period is necessarily restricted

> > to puberty, though it could be.

>

> LOL!

>

> And I remember warning you early on in that thread that you were

> stepping into some deep doodoo with your comments which I think

> encompassed both butts and breasts <weg>

> .

>

Haha, I remember the breasts/buttocks thread well...good times!

I think the theory most accepted today is that larger breasts evolved

through sexual selection, which is a wholly separate process from

natural selection. If this is true, it would suggest that there may

not in fact be a physiological purpose for larger breast size.

However, extent of mammary (gland) development and breast size (fat

and other tissue included) are not the same.

Tom

[Guest guest]

-

> And I remember warning you early on in that thread that you were

> stepping into some deep doodoo with your comments which I think

> encompassed both butts and breasts <weg>

I think Heidi brought up butts, actually -- her position was that

breasts were the result of sexual selection to mimic butts once our

ancestors started walking upright and butts became less prominent, and

therefore she believed that mammary tissue development had no

functional purpose. I'm not sure that the debate ever extended to the

functional characteristics (or lack thereof) of full butts. <g>

-

[Guest guest]

On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:18 AM, Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

> -

>

>> And I remember warning you early on in that thread that you were

>> stepping into some deep doodoo with your comments which I think

>> encompassed both butts and breasts <weg>

>

> I think Heidi brought up butts, actually -- her position was that

> breasts were the result of sexual selection to mimic butts once our

> ancestors started walking upright and butts became less prominent, and

> therefore she believed that mammary tissue development had no

> functional purpose. I'm not sure that the debate ever extended to the

> functional characteristics (or lack thereof) of full butts. <g>

I'm not sure it did either and I might be wrong but I seem to recall

you suggesting that flat butts may be a result of improper nutrition.

If you did you certainly have more courage than I do <g>

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist

[Guest guest]

-

> I'm not sure it did either and I might be wrong but I seem to recall

> you suggesting that flat butts may be a result of improper nutrition.

> If you did you certainly have more courage than I do <g>

Well, inadequate nutrition and/or absorption and so on. I don't

remember saying that, but it seems likely. Rationally speaking, I

don't see why it should be particularly controversial, either. Many

health problems and physical deviations from the ideal stem from

inadequate and improper nutrition, and nowadays there's probably not

one of us who doesn't have some of both.

-

[Guest guest]

,

> -

>

>> I'm not sure it did either and I might be wrong but I seem to recall

>> you suggesting that flat butts may be a result of improper nutrition.

>> If you did you certainly have more courage than I do <g>

>

> Well, inadequate nutrition and/or absorption and so on. I don't

> remember saying that, but it seems likely. Rationally speaking, I

> don't see why it should be particularly controversial, either. Many

> health problems and physical deviations from the ideal stem from

> inadequate and improper nutrition, and nowadays there's probably not

> one of us who doesn't have some of both.

Surely you know whenever you start talking about a woman's anatomy in

what some might consider less than a flattering way (small breasts,

flat butts), whether publicly or privately, you are stepping into deep

doodoo. That is just the way of the world.<g>

In a brief glance at that thread, thought it was mighty

interesting how many women on the list at the time were saying how

their husband supports them even though (presumably) they have small

breasts.

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist

[Guest guest]

-

> Surely you know whenever you start talking about a woman's anatomy in

> what some might consider less than a flattering way (small breasts,

> flat butts), whether publicly or privately, you are stepping into deep

> doodoo. That is just the way of the world.<g>

Well, the assumption generally seems to be that anyone making such

comments (a) must be doing so in a disparaging way, and ( is

arrogantly assuming that he or she himself or herself is physically

perfect, and I suppose that's true often enough to make the assumption

understandable, but it strikes me as rather absurd to be discussing

Price's findings -- detailed, after all, in a book called " Nutrition

and PHYSICAL Degeneration " -- and yet avoid talking about a whole

class of physical characteristics and consequences.

> In a brief glance at that thread, thought it was mighty

> interesting how many women on the list at the time were saying how

> their husband supports them even though (presumably) they have small

> breasts.

It's too bad people take an essentially academic discussion

personally. And anyway, as I'm sure I pointed out at the time, though

any given individual might be strongly attracted to a particular

trait, people overall largely cover the spectrum.

-

[Guest guest]

> I've read several pieces of literature that describe how the mammary

> glands

> (and the breast's fat tissue) begin to develop at the onset of puberty and

> how important this development is to future lactation abilities. I didn't

Actually, it goes back farther than that. Mammary tissue development occurs

when the woman is being carried by her own mother in the last few weeks of

gestation. So if you were born prematurely, your likelihood of having

hypoplastic breasts (underdeveloped mammary glands) or other nursing

problems rises. It's a double-whammy because many cases of prematurity are

caused by malnourishment and then you also don't get the benefit of those

last few weeks gestation where much of the breast tissue development occurs.

However, due to some independent factors, women who were themselves

premature at birth can actually produce too much milk, too. Then you also

have to factor in iatrogenic causes. In short, it's much more complicated

than just one factor, although the issue of nutrition can be a significant

contributor on many levels to the inability to nurse.

KerryAnn

http://www.cookingtf.com/ - American and Australian TF Menu Mailers

http://www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods forum

[Guest guest]

KerryAnn,

> However, due to some independent factors, women who were themselves

> premature at birth can actually produce too much milk, too. Then you also

> have to factor in iatrogenic causes. In short, it's much more complicated

> than just one factor, although the issue of nutrition can be a significant

> contributor on many levels to the inability to nurse.

And here I was all this time thinking that you were some mean old

unsympathetic woman who had no heart or understanding for women who

had trouble nursing. In fact, based on other exchanges I have seen

elsewhere you were supposedly so mean and so greatly lacked in

understanding you had to be banned from certain corners of the WAP

world <weg>

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist

[Guest guest]

> And here I was all this time thinking that you were some mean old

> unsympathetic woman who had no heart or understanding for women who

> had trouble nursing. In fact, based on other exchanges I have seen

,

I'm not old. I've been 29 for two years, and I plan to stay that way! LOL!

KerryAnn

http://www.cookingtf.com/ - American and Australian TF Menu Mailers

http://www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods forum

[Guest guest]

What happens to the breasts during pregnancy to prepare for milk

production? How important are these changes versus the changes made

during puberty and before birth?

I know breasts use a lot of iodine. Could iodine deficiency play a

large role?

[Guest guest]

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:38 PM, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> KerryAnn,

>

>> However, due to some independent factors, women who were themselves

>> premature at birth can actually produce too much milk, too. Then you also

>> have to factor in iatrogenic causes. In short, it's much more complicated

>> than just one factor, although the issue of nutrition can be a significant

>> contributor on many levels to the inability to nurse.

>

> And here I was all this time thinking that you were some mean old

> unsympathetic woman who had no heart or understanding for women who

> had trouble nursing. In fact, based on other exchanges I have seen

> elsewhere you were supposedly so mean and so greatly lacked in

> understanding you had to be banned from certain corners of the WAP

> world <weg>

And in case some of you don't know the history behind this comment,

I'm only joking in my characterization of KerryAnn.

--

In the religious perspective, none of us " owns " his own body. Rather, we are the

stewards of them, and God is the ultimate " owner " of each of us. But

this concerns only

the relation between man and Deity. As far as the relationship between

man and man,

however, the secular statement that we own our own bodies has an

entirely different

meaning. It refers to the claim that we each have free will; that no

one person may take

it upon himself to enslave another, even for the latter's " own good. "

- Walter Block

[Guest guest]

-

> And in case some of you don't know the history behind this comment,

> I'm only joking in my characterization of KerryAnn.

And here I was about to give you a stern reprimand for making personal

attacks. Damn.

;-)

-

[Guest guest]

> What happens to the breasts during pregnancy to prepare for milk

> production? How important are these changes versus the changes made

> during puberty and before birth?

Milk glands do grow some during pregnancy, but not nearly to the rate and

extent they do at the end of gestation when your mother was carrying you.

It is a common report that women make more milk with subsequent babies due

to the growth in size and number of the milk glands from pregnancy, along

with the benefit of having experience and more confidence.

> I know breasts use a lot of iodine. Could iodine deficiency play a

> large role?

I believe it can definitely play a role, however how large of a role that

plays is anyone's guess. I honestly think it is not wise to bank on any one

strategy to fix a problem, but to take a combination approach in case the

theorizing is incorrect.

KerryAnn

http://www.cookingtf.com/ - American and Australian TF Menu Mailers

http://www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods forum

[Guest guest]

,

> ...it strikes me as rather absurd to be discussing

> Price's findings -- detailed, after all, in a book called " Nutrition

> and PHYSICAL Degeneration " -- and yet avoid talking about a whole

> class of physical characteristics and consequences.

I hear you loud and clear. I think however many took issue with the

perceived idea that small breasts and fully functioning breasts were

somehow interconnected nutritionally.

>> In a brief glance at that thread, thought it was mighty

>> interesting how many women on the list at the time were saying how

>> their husband supports them even though (presumably) they have small

>> breasts.

>

> It's too bad people take an essentially academic discussion

> personally. And anyway, as I'm sure I pointed out at the time, though

> any given individual might be strongly attracted to a particular

> trait, people overall largely cover the spectrum.

Yup, I agree (though I have yet to meet a man who says he is attracted

to flat butts), but given the body image atmosphere in America and

probably a good chunk of the world, there was no way you were getting

through that discussion without getting roiled from all parts <weg>,

which is really the only point I was making..

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist