Re: POLITICS: Greedy Zionists Bankers

[Guest guest]

Sharon, I'm not sure that comparing Obama to Hitler is the smartest

comparison. Obama is clearly for tolerance of other races. Why do

you think he would be an agent of intolerance of other races? What's

your evidence?

Mike

[Guest guest]

Sharon, if you're saying that you think Obama will start putting white

people into concentration camps...I'll never be able to take anything

you say seriously ever again. Is that what you're saying?

Generally, I stay out of political discussions here. However...this

was too stupid to allow. This doesn't mean I disagree with you on

everything, Sharon, but...we do disagree on this. and I'm right.

Mike

[Guest guest]

This is absolutely disgusting, and the reasoning is about as bankrupt

as it gets.

No further comment is necessary.

> Found at:

>

http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2008/10/german-lady-remembers-and-speaks.html

>

> In Germany, when Hitler came to power, it was a time of terrible

> financial depression. Money was worth nothing. In Germany people lost

> homes and jobs, just like in the American Depression in the 1930s,

> which we have read about in Thoene's Shiloh books.

>

> In those days, in my homeland, Adolph Hitler was elected to power by

> promising " Change. " He blamed the " Zionists " around the world for all

> our problems. He told everyone it was greedy Zionist Bankers who had

> caused every problem we had. He promised when he was leader, the

> greedy Zionist bankers would be punished. The Zionists, he promised,

> would be wiped off the face of the earth. So Hitler was elected to

> power by only 1/3 the popular vote. A coalition of other political

> parties in parliament made him supreme leader.

>

> Then, when he was leader, he disgraced and expelled everyone in

> parliament who did not go along with him. Yes. Change came to my

> homeland as the new leader promised it would. The teachers in German

> schools began to teach the children to sing songs in praise of Hitler.

> This was the beginning of the Hitler Youth movement.

>

> It began with praise of the Fuhrer's programs on the lips of innocent

> children. Hymns in praise of Hitler and his programs were being sung

> in the schoolrooms and in the playyard. Little girls and boys joined

> hands and sang these songs as they walked home from school. My brother

> came home and told Papa what was happening at school. The political

> hymns of children proclaimed Change was coming to our homeland and the

> Fuhrer was a leader we could trust.

>

> I will never forget my father's face. Grief and fear. He knew that the

> best propaganda of the Nazis was song on the lips of little children.

> That evening before he said grace at the dinner table, he placed his

> hands upon the heads of my brothers and me and prayed the Living Word

> upon us from 1:4-5.

>

> 'Now the Word of the Lord came to me, saying,

> " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

> and before you were born I consecrated you;

> I appointed you a prophet to The nations. "

>

> Soon the children's songs praising the Fuhrer were heard everywhere on

> the streets and over the radio. " With our Fuhrer to lead us, we can do

> it! We can change the world! "

>

> Soon after that Papa, a pastor, was turned away from visiting elderly

> parishioners in hospitals. The people he had come to bring comfort of

> God's Word, were " no longer there. " Where had they vanished to while

> under nationalized health care? It became an open secret. The elderly

> and sick began to disappear from hospitals feet first as " mercy

> killing " became the policy. Children with disabilities and those who

> had Down syndrome were euthanized.

>

> People whispered, " Maybe it is better for them now. Put them out of

> misery. They are no longer suffering.And, of course, their death is

> better for the treasury of our nation. Our taxes no longer must be

> spent to care for such a burden. " And so murder was called mercy.

>

> The government took over private business. Industry and health care

> were " nationalized. " (NA-ZI means National Socialist Party) The

> businesses of all Jews were seized. (Perhaps you remember our story in

> Berlin on Kristalnacht in the book Munich Signature)

>

> The world and God's word were turned upside down. Hitler promised the

> people economic Change? Not change. It was, rather, Lucifer's very

> ancient Delusion leading to Destruction. What began with the

> propaganda of children singing a catchy tune ended in the deaths of

> millions of children.

>

> The reality of what came upon us is so horrible that you in this

> present generation cannot imagine it. Our suffering is too great to

> ever tell in a book or show in a black and white newsreel.

>

> When I spoke to Bodie about some of these things, she wept and said

> she could not bear to write them. Perhaps one day she will, but I

> asked her, " who could bear to read our suffering? " Yet with my last

> breaths I warn every Christian and Jew now in the name of the Lord,

> Unless your course of the church in America is spiritually changed

> now, returning to the Lord, there are new horrors yet to come.

>

> I trembled last night when I heard the voices of American children

> raised in song, praising the name of Obama, the charismatic fellow who

> claims he is the American Messiah. Yet I have heard what this man

> Obama says about abortion and the " mercy killing " of tiny babies who

> are not wanted.

>

> There are so few of us left to warn you. I have heard that there are

> 69 million Catholics in America and 70 million Evangelical Christians.

> Where are your voices? Where is your outrage? Where is passion and

> your vote? Do you vote based on an abortionist's empty promises and

> economics? Or do you vote according to the Bible? Thus says the Lord

> about every living child still in the womb.

>

> " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

> and before you were born I consecrated you. "

>

> I have experienced the signs of the politics of Death in my youth. I

> see them again now. Christians! Unless you stand up now, you will lose

> your freedom of religion. In America priests and preachers have

> already lost their freedom to speak openly from their pulpits of moral

> danger in political candidates. They cannot legally instruct you of

> which candidate holds fast to the precepts of scripture! American law

> forbids this freedom of speech to conservative pastors or they will

> lose their " tax exempt " status.

>

> And yet I have heard the words of Obama's pastor Damning America! I

> have heard the words of Obama damning and mocking all of you in small

> towns because you " Cling to your religion. " But I am a woman whose

> name is unknown. My life is recorded as a work of fiction. I have no

> fear of reprisal when I speak truth to you from the pages of a book.

>

> I have no fear for myself, bur children, I tremble. I tremble at the

> hymns to a political leaders which your children will sing at school..

> (Though even now a hymn or a prayer to God and our Lord Jesus is

> against the law in public school!) t for all of you and for you

>

> Your vote must put a stop to what will come upon America if Barack

> Obama is elected. I pray you will personally heed this warning for the

> sake of your children and your grandchildren. Do not be deceived. The

> Lord in 1:7-8 commands every believer to speak up!

>

> " Do not say, 'I am only a youth,' for to all whom I send you, you

> shall go, and whatever I command you, you shall speak. Do not be

> afraid of them for I am with you, declares the Lord! "

>

> --

> Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

> to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

> will have plenty to eat.

> Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

>

>

[Guest guest]

This isn't a matter of 'smart'. This is a matter of either insanity,

or outright racism. I am utterly offended by the junk that she is

posting.

> Sharon, I'm not sure that comparing Obama to Hitler is the smartest

> comparison. Obama is clearly for tolerance of other races. Why do

> you think he would be an agent of intolerance of other races? What's

> your evidence?

>

> Mike

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

LOL.....well, hard to argue with someone who is " right " . No, I don't

think he'll put people in concentration camps. I do think there are

parallels to some disturbing trends in the idea of " change " and blaming

" bankers " or the " federal reserve " , or people thinking that the power even

lies with those entities. I think that is too often used for fear-mongering

and the issue is more complex than that. I do think there are powers at

work much higher than Obama OR McCain and they're just the front-men

presenting messages to control or direct the masses.........but that too

often leads to the " illuminati " , or " one world order " , and those are roads

I'm not interested in going down.......

Do I think that Obama might pull out of Israel? Yes, I'm leaning that

direction, but there's not enough " real " information - only parallel

situations to analyze........

Sharon

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM, michael g <tropical@...> wrote:

> Sharon, if you're saying that you think Obama will start putting white

> people into concentration camps...I'll never be able to take anything

> you say seriously ever again. Is that what you're saying?

>

> Generally, I stay out of political discussions here. However...this

> was too stupid to allow. This doesn't mean I disagree with you on

> everything, Sharon, but...we do disagree on this. and I'm right.

>

> Mike

>

>

>

--

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

[Guest guest]

Just keep analyzing, LOL.

> LOL.....well, hard to argue with someone who is " right " . No, I

> don't

> think he'll put people in concentration camps. I do think there are

> parallels to some disturbing trends in the idea of " change " and

> blaming

> " bankers " or the " federal reserve " , or people thinking that the

> power even

> lies with those entities. I think that is too often used for fear-

> mongering

> and the issue is more complex than that. I do think there are powers

> at

> work much higher than Obama OR McCain and they're just the front-men

> presenting messages to control or direct the masses.........but that

> too

> often leads to the " illuminati " , or " one world order " , and those are

> roads

> I'm not interested in going down.......

>

> Do I think that Obama might pull out of Israel? Yes, I'm leaning that

> direction, but there's not enough " real " information - only parallel

> situations to analyze........

>

> Sharon

>

> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM, michael g <tropical@...>

> wrote:

>

> > Sharon, if you're saying that you think Obama will start putting

> white

> > people into concentration camps...I'll never be able to take

> anything

> > you say seriously ever again. Is that what you're saying?

> >

> > Generally, I stay out of political discussions here. However...this

> > was too stupid to allow. This doesn't mean I disagree with you on

> > everything, Sharon, but...we do disagree on this. and I'm right.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> >

> >

>

> --

> Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

> to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

> will have plenty to eat.

> Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

>

>

[Guest guest]

You need to study your history. Bush #2 was the one who stopped all

diplomatic efforts in Israel as soon as he came into office. Clinton

was the one making the diplomatic effort in Israel. He tried hard.

Anybody who knows their history knows that you need both diplomacy and

a powerful military to deal with problems. " Speak softly and carry a

big stick " . Bush refused to speak at all, and that doesn't work. Of

course, he's a giant idiot, so no surprise there.

Mike

>

> Do I think that Obama might pull out of Israel? Yes, I'm leaning that

> direction, but there's not enough " real " information - only parallel

> situations to analyze........

>

> Sharon

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I will. And you just keep being so offended and not contribute any

original thinking, Gene.

Sharon

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote:

> Just keep analyzing, LOL.

>

>

--

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

[Guest guest]

Sharon-

> Yes, I will. And you just keep being so offended and not contribute

> any

> original thinking, Gene.

ly, I think Gene's shown a good deal of restraint in the face of

this sort of odious tripe. And how exactly does posting someone

else's filthy Obama=Hitler smear constitute original thinking, anyway?

-

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:46 PM, michael g <tropical@...> wrote:

>

> Anybody who knows their history knows that you need both diplomacy and

> a powerful military to deal with problems. " Speak softly and carry a

> big stick " . Bush refused to speak at all, and that doesn't work. Of

> course, he's a giant idiot, so no surprise there.

>

> Mike

And you think Obama is going to build up a strong military? The

Iraqis support McCain from what I've been reading. If you have other

material showing that Obama is pro-military, I'd love to read it.

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/30/iraqis-prefer-mccain-over-obama/

Sharon

>

> >

> > Do I think that Obama might pull out of Israel? Yes, I'm leaning that

> > direction, but there's not enough " real " information - only parallel

> > situations to analyze........

> >

> > Sharon

> >

>

>

--

Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will have plenty to eat.

Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

[Guest guest]

If original thinking connotes the trash that you're posting, then I'm

glad I'm not an original thinker.

> Yes, I will. And you just keep being so offended and not contribute

> any

> original thinking, Gene.

> Sharon

>

> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Gene Schwartz

> <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> > Just keep analyzing, LOL.

> >

> >

>

> --

> Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

> to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

> will have plenty to eat.

> Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

>

>

[Guest guest]

The Iraqis overwhelmingly want us out of Iraq. There should be no

debate here at all. We invaded them, killed 1,000,000+ of them, are

bragging that we've brought them democracy - well, any reasonable

interpretation of democracy would have us leaving.

Unfortunately, Obama IS a hawk on foreign policy. The military budget

should be cut drastically. We should not be spending obscene amounts

of money 'spreading democracy' around the world. The U.S. doesn't care

one bit about democracy.

> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:46 PM, michael g <tropical@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Anybody who knows their history knows that you need both diplomacy

> and

> > a powerful military to deal with problems. " Speak softly and carry a

> > big stick " . Bush refused to speak at all, and that doesn't work. Of

> > course, he's a giant idiot, so no surprise there.

> >

> > Mike

>

> And you think Obama is going to build up a strong military? The

> Iraqis support McCain from what I've been reading. If you have other

> material showing that Obama is pro-military, I'd love to read it.

>

> http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/30/iraqis-prefer-mccain-over-obama/

>

> Sharon

>

> >

> > >

> > > Do I think that Obama might pull out of Israel? Yes, I'm leaning

> that

> > > direction, but there's not enough " real " information - only

> parallel

> > > situations to analyze........

> > >

> > > Sharon

> > >

> >

> >

>

> --

> Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

> to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

> will have plenty to eat.

> Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

>

>

[Guest guest]

According to NPR, McCain wants to add about 125 thousand service

members, and Obama wants to add about 100 thousand. I think Clinton

may have overdone the military cutbacks. We didn't need a smaller

military, we needed a different one. The military that was designed

around the Cold War meganuke arms race is not one that can handle the

threats of today, which are very different.

Mike

>

>

> And you think Obama is going to build up a strong military?

[Guest guest]

Iraq wasn't a threat. Afghanistan wasn't a threat. We should cut the

military drastically.

> According to NPR, McCain wants to add about 125 thousand service

> members, and Obama wants to add about 100 thousand. I think Clinton

> may have overdone the military cutbacks. We didn't need a smaller

> military, we needed a different one. The military that was designed

> around the Cold War meganuke arms race is not one that can handle the

> threats of today, which are very different.

>

> Mike

>

> >

> >

> > And you think Obama is going to build up a strong military?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

I have great sympathy for those who suffered at the hands of Hitler.

I especially relate to the fear that Hitler used to take and hold

power. I've felt that fear these past 8 years under bush/chaney.

I've never felt so afraid of what had and is happening to our nation.

What I fear most is the viciousness against Obama - intolerance at

it's finest!

I just finished reading Obama's book " The Audacity of Hope " and I urge

you to read the chapter on Faith instead of getting all of your news

from web sites designed to use FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) to

shape your world.

I was a Hillary supporter and liked McCain 8 years ago. I decided

that I needed to know this new guy, Barack Obama, and figured that

reading his books would be a great way to learn the truth from his own

words, not just sound-bites and internet slander.

I voted for Barack Obama because he is caring, thoughtful, rational,

introspective, emotionally intelligent, multi-cultural, and passionate

about changing our disfunctional political system. His 2nd book

logically lays out his beliefs and ideas.

If you want to know the real person, read the book.

From my heart,

Sherry

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Idol <paul.idol@...> wrote:

> Sharon-

>

>

> ly, I think Gene's shown a good deal of restraint in the face of

> this sort of odious tripe. And how exactly does posting someone

> else's filthy Obama=Hitler smear constitute original thinking, anyway?

>

> -

>

Hi,

I found the " odious tripe " interesting in its parallels between their

financial woes and ours - between their banks and ours.

The woman who wrote the article was sharing her real-life perceptions

and experiences from an anti-Obama perspective. While I didn't post

any comments about the article, and instead some are assuming you know

what I intended from it, (so much for an open posting policy), my view

is any name could be used to fill-in-the-blank where Obama's name

occurs in the article. The real issue to me are the historical

parallels behind the banking industry and the oppression of Jews.

I don't see any clear answers for Israel or Palestine in Obama's

offerings. didn't help with his comments made in

France.....

Sharon

>

[Guest guest]

As a 'real life' Jewish person, I also resent your misappropriation of

Jewish oppression to post your drivel. There is absolutely NO

connection between the Nazis and Barack Obama, however your twisted

logic may want it to be so.

I also didn't see any suggestion of censorship, like you imply. You

can post your nasty garbage, and then people can comment on it, or

ignore it.

> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Idol <paul.idol@...>

> wrote:

> > Sharon-

> >

> >

> > ly, I think Gene's shown a good deal of restraint in the face

> of

> > this sort of odious tripe. And how exactly does posting someone

> > else's filthy Obama=Hitler smear constitute original thinking,

> anyway?

> >

> > -

> >

> Hi,

> I found the " odious tripe " interesting in its parallels between their

> financial woes and ours - between their banks and ours.

>

> The woman who wrote the article was sharing her real-life perceptions

> and experiences from an anti-Obama perspective. While I didn't post

> any comments about the article, and instead some are assuming you know

> what I intended from it, (so much for an open posting policy), my view

> is any name could be used to fill-in-the-blank where Obama's name

> occurs in the article. The real issue to me are the historical

> parallels behind the banking industry and the oppression of Jews.

>

> I don't see any clear answers for Israel or Palestine in Obama's

> offerings. didn't help with his comments made in

> France.....

>

> Sharon

>

> >

[Guest guest]

On 11/2/08, michael g <tropical@...> wrote:

> Sharon, I'm not sure that comparing Obama to Hitler is the smartest

> comparison. Obama is clearly for tolerance of other races. Why do

> you think he would be an agent of intolerance of other races? What's

> your evidence?

On a personal level, I don't see any of the grotesque dementia that

characterized Hitler in Obama. However, there is a cult of

personality about Obama, and that is similar.

The question is, what is required for fascism?

I think it is the following:

-- Fear of a common enemy, generally terrorism.

-- Willingness to sacrifice liberty for safety.

-- Willingness to temporarily suspend constitutional principles.

-- Cult of personality around a leader.

Bush laid the ground for the first three. Bush established ALL of the

infrastructure necessary for literal totalitarianism in America.

Obama supplies the last part.

However, what we don't know is how connected either Obama or McCain

are to the actual people laying down all the fascist infrastructure.

This seems primarily to be the domain of the neocons, so McCain

worries me more on this point. That said, I think the globalists, who

are more in line with Obama, tend to enjoy the neocons developing this

infrastructure because then they can use it for their own ends and not

be blamed for it.

So, in conclusion, I would say vote however you want but put no trust

in princes or in any mortal man.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

> I do think there are

> parallels to some disturbing trends in the idea of " change " and blaming

> " bankers " or the " federal reserve " , or people thinking that the power even

> lies with those entities.

You don't think that bankers or the Federal Reserve has any power?

The bankers essentially own the country, if not the world, and the Fed

is one of their main instruments of power. I don't see Obama

agitating to get rid of the Fed. If he was, I'd be campaigning for

him.

> I think that is too often used for fear-mongering

> and the issue is more complex than that. I do think there are powers at

> work much higher than Obama OR McCain and they're just the front-men

> presenting messages to control or direct the masses.........but that too

> often leads to the " illuminati " , or " one world order " , and those are roads

> I'm not interested in going down.......

There's very little if any evidence that the Illuminati still exists.

The new world order is openly talked about, although interpreting what

people mean by it is a complex task and different people mean

different things.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Nov 2, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Masterjohn wrote:

> On 11/2/08, michael g <tropical@...> wrote:

> > Sharon, I'm not sure that comparing Obama to Hitler is the smartest

> > comparison. Obama is clearly for tolerance of other races. Why do

> > you think he would be an agent of intolerance of other races? What's

> > your evidence?

>

> On a personal level, I don't see any of the grotesque dementia that

> characterized Hitler in Obama. However, there is a cult of

> personality about Obama, and that is similar.

>

There is a 'cult of personality' about Obama, in the same sense as

there was one 'about' Hitler? And the fact that some people are

enamored with Obama's personality, is similar in an important sense to

the worship of Hitler? That's just sloppy logic. There was a 'cult of

personality' around Clinton, and around Kennedy, and there

was one about Reagan. Were these all " similar " to what happened

with Hitler?

>

>

> The question is, what is required for fascism?

>

> I think it is the following:

>

> -- Fear of a common enemy, generally terrorism.

> -- Willingness to sacrifice liberty for safety.

> -- Willingness to temporarily suspend constitutional principles.

> -- Cult of personality around a leader.

>

You're really asking what is required for people to agree to fascism,

from a context in which their environment is not fascist, right?

Obviously, a cult of personality, or even any of your other

requirements are not required for fascism.

>

>

> Bush laid the ground for the first three. Bush established ALL of the

> infrastructure necessary for literal totalitarianism in America.

> Obama supplies the last part.

>

That is just pure idiocy, plain and simple. I can't believe that you

continue to post stuff that is so incredibly logically bankrupt.

Perhaps there is another requirement that you forgot - desire of the

leader to establish a fascist state. The semblance of democracy in

American has always served the government well. We can 'spread

democracy' and tout our freedoms, etc. They have long realized that

this minimal democracy functions better than pure fascism. To what

degree fascism could actually be put in place here without huge

dissent, given our history, is really debatable. After a point, if our

government became truly totalitarian, the propaganda wouldn't work any

longer...

But the notion that Obama supplies the last element required for

fascism, without there being any evidence at all that he is a

fascist, is just irresponsible drivel.

>

>

> However, what we don't know is how connected either Obama or McCain

> are to the actual people laying down all the fascist infrastructure.

> This seems primarily to be the domain of the neocons, so McCain

> worries me more on this point. That said, I think the globalists, who

> are more in line with Obama, tend to enjoy the neocons developing this

> infrastructure because then they can use it for their own ends and not

> be blamed for it.

>

> So, in conclusion, I would say vote however you want but put no trust

> in princes or in any mortal man.

>

>

>

> Chris

>

>

[Guest guest]

I usually don't post on politics for this group, but I feel too compelled not

to. I moved to

Israel as a child and spent 21 years there. My immediate family is still there.

In addition, a

close cousin of mine, who died recently, was a holocaust survivor. It sickens me

that folks

compare Obama to Hitler. This is due to right wing media instilling fear, the

same tactic

that has been used by Bush and Republicans for years. This is how they got the

support

from most Americans to go to war in Iraq. This is how they continue to get

Americans to

submit to things like the Patriot Act, the extreme security at airports and for

illegally

wiretapping and seeing phone records and for basically ignoring the

constitution.

Obama, on the other hand, is adamant about restoring respect toward the

constitution

and one of his mottos is " Hope, not Fear " . We can't let fear dictate our

actions.

I encourage you to watch the following video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=K2VFRt5W4FM

>

> > Sharon, if you're saying that you think Obama will start putting white

> > people into concentration camps...I'll never be able to take anything

> > you say seriously ever again. Is that what you're saying?

> >

> > Generally, I stay out of political discussions here. However...this

> > was too stupid to allow. This doesn't mean I disagree with you on

> > everything, Sharon, but...we do disagree on this. and I'm right.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according

> to conscience, above all liberties. - Milton, Areopagitica

> Deut 11:15 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

> will have plenty to eat.

> Check out my blog - www.ericsons.net - Food for the Body and Soul

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I usually lurk on this list, reluctant to post in part because of the

strong religious sentiments expressed by some posters here. As someone

who practices a faith that is not Christianity, I find that a little

off-putting, to put it mildly.

But I cannot believe the drivel I am reading here today. I have been

sitting at my computer slack-jawed in disbelief at the ignorance and

prejudice being played out, particularly by Sharon and , and I

thank Gene and Riki and a few others for your thoughtful responses. I

will try to be equally thoughtful and civil.

Folks, the future of our great nation will be hanging in the balance on

Tuesday. This election is extremely important for us all. Your

vote--that of each and every one of you--is too important for you to

allow others to think for you. Don't rely on second-hand information

about either candidate: go to the source!

It's probably too late to read either of Obama's books before Tuesday,

but I strongly recommend them, for giving you a better picture of who he

is, what values he holds, and what has shaped him as a person and a

political figure.

Go to his website: www.barackobama.com. Read what he has to say about

the issues. Read his plans for the future of our country.

From his website:

" On Israel

" Ensure a Strong U.S.-Israel Partnership: Barack Obama and Joe Biden

strongly support the U.S.-Israel relationship, believe that our first

and incontrovertible commitment in the Middle East must be to the

security of Israel, America's strongest ally in the Middle East. They

support this closeness, stating that that the United States would never

distance itself from Israel.

" Support Israel's Right to Self Defense: During the July 2006 Lebanon

war, Barack Obama stood up strongly for Israel's right to defend itself

from Hezbollah raids and rocket attacks, cosponsoring a Senate

resolution against Iran and Syria's involvement in the war, and

insisting that Israel should not be pressured into a ceasefire that did

not deal with the threat of Hezbollah missiles. He and Joe Biden believe

strongly in Israel's right to protect its citizens.

" Support Foreign Assistance to Israel: Barack Obama and Joe Biden have

consistently supported foreign assistance to Israel. They defend and

support the annual foreign aid package that involves both military and

economic assistance to Israel and have advocated increased foreign aid

budgets to ensure that these funding priorities are met. They have

called for continuing U.S. cooperation with Israel in the development of

missile defense systems. "

Here is the link to his full Israel fact sheet:

http://origin.barackobama.com/pdf/israelfactsheet.pdf/

, as someone else asked, what would be wrong with Obama being a

Muslim?

The fact of the matter is that he is a committed Christian, and you

would know that if you went to the proper sources and checked for

yourself. Here is a link to the facts on his faith, in the form of a

speech he gave a couple of years ago:

http://www.barackobama.com/2006/06/28/call_to_renewal_keynote_address.php

If the big url doesn't work, here's a tiny version:

http://tinyurl.com/2hl83g

If you have not been to his website to ready about his views on

defending our nation, here is the link:

http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/homeland_security/

And here is the link to his views on the economy, and what he actually

plans to do (not what others say he will do):

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/

Sharon and (and anyone else in the same camp), I've done some of

the homework for you. All you have to do is click on the links above.

Please educate yourself on what the man actually says he will do. Then,

do the same for his opponent. Read carefully what each of them says, and

then make an informed decision.

ee Meade

Burke, VA

[Guest guest]

On 11/2/08, Riki <therikster@...> wrote:

> I usually don't post on politics for this group, but I feel too compelled

> not to. I moved to

> Israel as a child and spent 21 years there. My immediate family is still

> there. In addition, a

> close cousin of mine, who died recently, was a holocaust survivor. It

> sickens me that folks

> compare Obama to Hitler. This is due to right wing media instilling fear,

> the same tactic

> that has been used by Bush and Republicans for years. This is how they got

> the support

> from most Americans to go to war in Iraq. This is how they continue to get

> Americans to

> submit to things like the Patriot Act, the extreme security at airports and

> for illegally

> wiretapping and seeing phone records and for basically ignoring the

> constitution.

> Obama, on the other hand, is adamant about restoring respect toward the

> constitution

> and one of his mottos is " Hope, not Fear " . We can't let fear dictate our

> actions.

I want to emphasize that I was not suggesting Obama is anything like

Hitler in his worldview or basic motivations, etc. Bush is closer to

Hitler in the sense that Bush has very literally laid down the legal

path to fascism in much the same way Hitler did in response to

basically the same stimuli (terrorism). The Patriot Act was only the

beginning of it.

The legal structure of fascism is already there. Obama does not need

to create it. The question is what Obama will do with the fascist

legal structure that Bush has put into place. I haven't heard

anything convincing from Obama that he will actually eliminate it. I

haven't seen him talk about the emergency measures placed in the last

year that allow the president to declare emergency without the consent

of congress, dissolve congress, and take over all private enterprises.

I have seen him be very supportive of the treasury secretary's

financial dictatorship.

I *hope* that when Obama wins, which I think he will, he will stave

off the development of this fascism. But I think exactly how it plays

out is up in the air. And the president himself doesn't run

everything. So it matters who gets into his cabinet. It is pretty

unlikely that he would be the first president to not have a cabinet

stuffed with Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg and CFR-associated

cabinet members. Reagan at least explicitly promised this, though

even he wound up with a cabinet stuffed to the hilt with members from

all three groups.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> Obama, on the other hand, is adamant about restoring respect toward the

> constitution

> and one of his mottos is " Hope, not Fear " . We can't let fear dictate our

actions.

This is a great illustration as to why we should ignore candidates' vapid

mottos and rhetoric and look at their *voting record* if we really want to

know what they will do once in office.

Obama restoring respect toward the Constitution? This is laughable. His

voting record speaks for itself.

He voted FOR the Patriot Act twice.

He voted in favor of warrantless wiretapping (spying on Americans).

He voted for a handgun ban in his state.

He's called for a national civilian *security* force that's as large and

well funded as the military (ironically he said this while in *Germany*

where the Stasi - national civilian security force - reigned).

The point is, Obama is hardly a Constitution candidate in this election.

And neither is McCain, who, I believe, also called for some sort of civilian

security force and also voted for the Patriot Act and against habeas corpus.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Candidates.htm

Neither one of these morons has my vote.

Suze

[Guest guest]

--- ee Meade <scottee1@...> wrote:

> I usually lurk on this list, reluctant to post in part because of

> the strong religious sentiments expressed by some posters here. As

> someone who practices a faith that is not Christianity, I find that

> a little off-putting, to put it mildly.

ee, thanks for posting the info links about Obama, though I doubt

that his detractors will read them

It's my experience that most people on this list are pretty set in

their ways. But I understand your concern, as I don't claim any

religion myself. However, I do find it interesting to learn about

religions, as most of them do have some good ideas. And hearing

different points of view here can sometimes turn up new ideas or ways

of looking at things that I haven't run across before. So, I see more

good than bad in this process.

In fact last weekend, I was so inspired by all the discussions here, I

made a blog post on " Spiritual Health "

http://stay-healthy-enjoy-life.blogspot.com/