Re: Re: immunologist whistleblower on vaccines - Bill & Melinda Gates F

[Guest guest]

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 5:04 AM, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> Sharon,

> My un-asked-for two-cent's worth is that " debate skills " is a waste

> of time - when you learn to argue the side you're assigned, you seem

> to develop more moral flexibility and " spin " skills than the ability

> to get down to the root/truth of things. I did debate in high

> school, and decided that " debating skills " are a waste of time.

> Sure, people can out-argue me, but since my point is hopefully less

> about winning than finding out the truth, I don't care. Debate is

> for politicians and lawyers, in my humble opinion.

Well it is an opinion I humbly disagree with for a number of reasons

(and this list is not by any means exhaustive).

1. I am not familiar with high school debate, I was too busy playing

sports, chasing girls, and being involved in student gov't to mess

around with such " geek " activities <g>, but I am familiar with

collegiate debate, and there you had to learn to argue both sides of

an issue, not just " spin " the side you were assigned. I have already

mentioned in another post why this is potentially a good thing, and

unless you are watching cable TV or listening to Republican or

Democratic " talking points, " spin isn't always a bad thing. It is just

an attempt by a given side to highlight their strong points while

minimizing their weak points. If you are aware of that, and debating

competitively makes you acutely aware of that, you won't be taken when

someone spins things favorably or negatively, nor will you be apt to

dismiss things on the basis of that spin, realizing that usually on

both sides there is more to what is being said.

2. There is nothing wrong with learning how to listen with precision,

speak (or write) in a coherent and straight forward manner, being able

to think quickly and accurately under pressure, learning to keep your

emotions under control when someone is disagreeing with you, and

otherwise keep from getting easily offended or even acting like a jerk

in the face of sometimes strong disagreement.

3. If you think debate competitions per se are to get to the truth of

matter, then you, IMO, missed the whole point of debate teams, which

in a competition, are NOT designed to do such a thing.

4. I haven't heard a real debate among national politicians in years,

and because we live in a media age, and because most differences tody

between politicians is on the margins, probably never will.

5. I am always leery when others say " you can out argue me but I am

more interested in the truth. " This in certain contexts has always

struck me as a cop out. If you have a good argument, bring it, in a

coherent fashion that everyone can understand. If you don't bring it

coherently, but still think you are right, you might want to figure

out why it can't be presented coherently. You might be right, but

truth, in my opinion, can stand the heat, and there is no premium in

presenting truth in a slipshod and incoherent fashion.

Please note that I am not saying that because someone doesn't have an

answer to every argument thrown their way that somehow makes them

incoherent, only that if they choose to enter into the exchange of

ideas ***debate style*** (meaning they are offering a position they

believe to be right in opposition to another position), they should

know their position and be able to adequately explain it, or be simply

willing to ask questions and learn from those who do know their

positions. They may in the end disagree with others, but it will be on

a more sound foundation than, " well they are just better at

argumentation than I am. "

--

Buffalo too, has beautiful summers but not this year. Cool and rainy.

For the first time in ten years, we never installed the air

conditioners. My line on all this is, somebody better do something

about global warming before I freeze to death. - Ostrowski

" If you're not on somebody's watch list, you're not doing your job " -

Dave Von Kleist