Re: Insecurity pro-legalisation of sex work lobby

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr Sunitha Krishnan,

Re: /message/9144

As you pointed out it really is a democracy! We would like to raise a few

questions on the issues raised by you! It is really interesting that you raise

the question of gate crashing! If sex workers themselves turn up for a protest

against their own lives... who is gate crashing whom?

Anyway... the issues.

1. We would like a clarification on what a `pro-prostitution group' means. We

were under the impression [by your own report] you were doing an anti -

trafficking exercise why did this become a pro or anti prostitution space?

As you know prostitution is a site where trafficking can take place but to

equate it to trafficking is quite ridiculous. This is like saying that we

should link trafficking as marriage when we deal with trafficking of women as

mail order brides, no? OR link domestic labour as trafficking when we deal with

trafficking of women for the domestic labour market OR link it with Adoption

when we deal with children being trafficked for adoption.

Would the strategy then be to ban marriage, domestic labour or adoption?

2. Insecurity? When life and livelihood is itself threatened, would you consider

it insecurity to counter an exercise that would take away livelihood, from the

people who themselves practice prostitution?

As a professional social worker i [ meena] would certainly counter any exercise

that would threaten my livelihood [happens to be social work] And I would

certainly have the right as a practicing social worker, do you not think?

3. Truth in your words and threatened by them? We do not believe that there is a

black and white truth. Thus we know that what we experience in life includes the

facts that you present as a universal truth.

We fight all kinds of violence in our everyday life and what you put out is but

one kind.

We fight back all kinds of violence in the street, the violence of

judgementalism in just one such fight - Why would we be threatened by it?

Asking us if we choose sex work is also an issue. In a moralistic world opting

for anything that is not the norm is deemed shameful and viewed with disgust.

In such a circumstance would we agree to choosing your disgust and shame? STOP

shaming us and you will see the difference! We have lived with shame that has

stigmatized, discriminated and marginalized us enough.

Why would we then want the ones we love to undergo such shame? We would like to

protest them as much as we can. We are not protecting them from sex work, we are

protecting them from your shame and disgust.

Let us fight trafficking into any site. That is the criminal offence. Not sex

work.

In solidarity,

Shabana Kazi and Meena Saraswathi Seshu.

VAMP / SANGRAM.

e-mail: <sangram.vamp@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear FORUM,

Re: /message/9165

I would refrain from answering in the order of questions asked by Meena ji, but

would like to state a few personal convictions which also is my organizational

stand.

As much as we consider trafficking for the purposes of prostitution as a form

of modern day slavery we also believe that prostitution is the oldest form of

sexual slavery and is essentially a form of male violence against women and

children.

I also believe that no woman or child chooses prostitution if she had a range of

options to choose from.It is more in the realm of survival for themselves and

their children that they are 'forced' to take this option.

And so I do not think there is any need to legitimise the inadequecy of the

state and system by creating a farce of 'right'...I strongly believe that

provision of viable and sustainable options with adequate healing mechanisms is

the need of the hour.

And the state should be obliged to provide that, and I condemn all efforts that

diffuses this reality.

I personally believe that even if stigmatisation, marginalisation and

discrimination is removed neither I nor you would want our own daughters or

sisters in " sex work "  we would aspire them to be doctors,engineeers,social

workers   or any number of other professions that is internally dignifying.

Morals is not in my opinion a hateful term.

Our fight is not against prostituted women...our fight is against the demand for

prostitution,,,our fight is against a crippled state and system which is unable

to provide adequate options...our fight is against all those efforts which is

bent upon legitimising victimisation of human beings and in the bargain denying

them what is rightfully theirs...we are not asking for favours we are asking for

restoration of rights by providing options.

Having worked with prostituted women and children for a few years now...I only

see disgust and shame at the way human beings continue to promote sexual

violence...and make efforts to legitimise it

Dr Sunitha Krishnan

Prajwala

e-mail: <sunitha_2002@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear FORUM,

e: /message/9165

Great discussion. There are lot other factos leads to prostitution.

The poverty is the majo cause of prostition in the under developed & developing

countries. Pleasure is not in anywhere in the ame of prostitution.

The elite people called that differently. But the people from the lower

socio-economic background selling their flesh for their and their dependants

food. " Food for Flesh " . As Dr. Sunitha Krishnan said that no one is ready to

send our families & relatives into sex work.

All of us know this is not accepted by the society, religion, values, morals

etc. So we dont want our people in this so called " Commercial Sex " It is not a

small industry but it is billion dollar industry.

Even many places we are getting women/MSM for Rs. 2 to Lakhs. If it is in Rs. 2

rate it is prostitution otherwise it is pleasure.

We can't raise our voice against the people who are working for the betterment

of people who are in the sex work. The legality is must for the same and it

would help the people who is in the job against the lagal issues, human right

issues etc.

So raise the voie for the people who is need. As we are humans and we have to

help our fellow citizen.

Thank You & Regards

Md. Mujeeb UR Rahman

Kerala - India

Mobile No: +91 94431 71752

Email: md.mujeeb@...

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunitha,

Re: /message/9176

I would really like to continue this discussion in the public realm, thus the

reply to everyone on this list serve.

The position that prostitution is sexual slavery is a position taken by a

section of non-sex workers about sex work. Besides issues related to sexuality

will always attract violent reactions be it within a commercial context or

outside of one. Some comments…..

1. As your experience informs your position so does mine. AND I really think

the crux of the matter is just this. We all have multiple experiences of this

complex and complicated reality. Prostitution is not a homogeneous space. Every

one in prostitution do not experience it as one single reality - be it

exploitation or otherwise. As life, it is complex and complicated and any single

and linear analysis is really injustice to people in prostitution and sex work.

2. When sex workers articulate that they do not believe that `exchanging sexual

services for money with multiple partners' is in and of itself sexual slavery or

sexual violence, I would like to give them the respect of knowing what they are

talking about and their lived experience. This in no way compromises my analysis

of the male role in any sexual encounter. The potential of any sexual encounter

turning violent in an unequal space is entirely possible within or outside of

commercial sex. The effort in such a case is not to stop the sexual encounter

itself but to strive for a space that is

respectful of women such that they are not subjects of sexual violence. Sex

workers from all over the world have taught me and told me repeatedly that such

a space exists in sex work and I have no reason not to believe them.

3. My own personal experience with child sexual abuse has taught me that sexual

violence and sexual exploitation is a reality. But I am not willing to extend

that experience by some unscrupulous men to all my sexual encounters with men.

Sex workers have taught me that there are good men and bad men and the only way

we as women can counter bad men is to strengthen our control of the sexual

encounter be it in a domestic or commercial context.

4. Slavery is for me, not in the sexual encounter with the male but is in the

conditions within which the encounter takes place again in both domestic and

commercial context. The rights approach helps sex workers fight the injustice of

a state and society that creates a space where in they loose control and expose

themselves to slavery. That is the fight not to be slaves, not to be exploited,

not to be oppressed and not to be marginalized by an analysis that only pushes

sex workers underground.

5. I have repeatedly said that the issue is neatly diverted by the

discussion of choice. Choice is a cruel construct. It assumes that

structural barriers do not exist and one is able to make a choice in

isolation. What most people do whether in sex work or not is to look at the

options available and opt for the most suitable to oneself. I deeply believe in

the ability of adult women to decide the best possible option for them. I

consider it disrespectful to deny women this ability, which is what happens when

we question if women would chooses sex work as work.

6. Would women choose to be discriminated, stigmatized and marginalized? We all

know they are subjected to all of the above. Yet they fight to be recognized as

sex workers and claim a space in the sun. How did this come about? I believe

that the rights discourse has given women the strength to come forward and tell

the world that they are sex workers and what they do to earn money is `work'.

They have come forward to tell the world that they are not passive observers of

their own lives but have some control of their life and destiny.

7. On the issue of whether I would like my sister or daughter to be in sex work

as against doctors, engineers etc that are `internally dignified'… I am really

perplexed by this question. My argument is that we have decided what is

`internally dignified' and anyone who breaks this is immoral according to our

standards. I do not want my sister or daughter to be something they do not want

to be. I will not judge them for any decision taken by them for whatever reason.

That is all I can promise. I would like them to hold their head high in whatever

they decide to do. I will teach them to fight violence

and exploitation be it domestic or commercial. For me morality is in the

struggle to be human. Our judgementalism and control of other people's lives is

immoral and unjust I think.

We need a struggle and a movement where women wherever they are and whatever

they decide to do with their lives are happy and can live with dignity.

In solidarity,

Meena Saraswathi Seshu.

SANGRAM.

e-mail: <sangram.vamp@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear FORUM,

Re: /message/9188

No one disputes the need for expanding women's employment options.

But encouraging economic opportunities for women is not contingent on

discouraging sex work. As a feminist and supporter of sex workers' rights

recently remarked - " Opening up new choices for women does not begin with

closing down those that they have already made. "

Contrary to perceptions, recognizing rights of sex workers is not incompatible

with efforts to reduce trafficking and/or exploitation.

In 2006, the Head of the Australian Government Office for Women reported to the

Committee on the Elimination of All forms of Discrimination against Women

(CEDAW) that legislation to decriminalize sex work had reduced exploitation of

women in sex work.

[1] Similarly, a recent review of New Zealand 's Prostitution Reform Act, 2003,

concludes that protection of legal rights allowed more sex workers to seek help

including assistance to exit by those who wished to leave sex work.[2] On the

other hand, there is no positive evidence that criminalization of male demand

for sex work has reduced human trafficking in Sweden.

Criminal law is not the best means of " protecting " women.

The Ministry of Women and Child Development could learn from its own legislative

experience with trafficking and domestic violence, addressed through the Immoral

Traffic (Prevention) Act, 1956 ( " ITPA " ) and the Protection of Women from

Domestic Violence Act, 2005 ( " PWDVA " ) respectively.

The former is a penal instrument to punish offenders. The latter provides civil

remedies including right(s) to residence, protection from violence, maintenance

and compensation, besides a host of services for aggrieved women.

The only " protection " under ITPA is police raids, rescue and

institutionalization. Few women including those trafficked seek such protection;

most, in fact, 'escape' it.

In contrast, an ever increasing number of women are claiming rights under the

PWDVA, with over 7913 complaints alone within one year of its enactment.[3] Yet,

Amendments to the ITPA continue to prioritize punitive over affirmative action.

 

Individual morality cannot be the basis for legislation. Sound public policy

must be founded on facts, rationality and evidence.

Notes

______________

[1] Available at

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/cedaw34/statements/AUSOpeningstatement.pd\

f

[2]Government of New Zealand , Ministry of Justice, Report of the Prostitution

Law Review Committee on the Operation of the Prostitution Reform Act, 2003,

May2008. Available at 

http://www.justice.govt.nz/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/plrc-r\

eport/report.pdf

[3] Lawyers Collective Women’s Rights Initiative, “Staying Alive; 1st

Monitoring and Evaluation Report; 2007 on the Protection of Women from Domestic

Violence Actâ€. Available at http://www.unifem.org.in/PDF/Complete.pdf

Tripti Tandon

Lawyers Collective HIV/AIDS Unit

63/2, 1st Floor, Masjid Road

Jungpura, New Delhi 110014. India

Phone: +91-11-24377101/02, 24372237

Fax: +91-11-24372236

www.lawyerscollective.org

E-MAIL: <tripti.tandon@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear Forum,

Re: /message/9213

After what Sunitha has already said I would just add one

concern.

Prostitution and sex-work, if allowed would also make pimps,

brothel owners, managers, traffickers legal workers of the same field. Sex work

brings more minors in the trade than adults. Sex-work lures uneducated,

uninformed girl children who then suffer from STD, HIV, and too many abortions.

Girl children in sex-work also suffer teenage motherhood which kills their

childhood.

We should fight against child marriage, child labour, child abuse in family,

children in commercial sex and all those activities that lead to abuse of

children.

Prostitution is a demand that brings in more and more girl-children into it and

the traffickers make the money.

Just because some women make money in prostitution, please do not generalize the

situation. Majority of women who live in brothels or even outside brothels but

in prostitution are poor and suffer from poverty. Those who make money are their

brothel owners.

Do not create and continue with prostitution just because they have to be

treated and kept under glare for HIV AIDS programme to go on.

The women who are there already, let them be there. Treat them, look after them

socially, humanely, legally and medically but making prostitution known as

sex-work please do not bring in more and more girl children into it.

In prostitution we create the platform for more abuse, more poor women with no

income and no other skill, more women who fail to return to their family and

become men and women earning from trafficking.

Many women today have become traffickers bringing girls, luring them to the

glitters of the cities and then taking their child-hood away. Keeping

prostitution on you cannot stop trafficking of children.

Please stop second generation prostitution and trafficking. Look after the women

who are already there but give them the opportunity to bring up their children

well. It is a state responsibility and the responsibility of those Who have

decided to work for them.

Indrani Sinha

Sanlaap India

--

Ms. Indrani Sinha

Executive Director

SANLAAP

38B Mahanirban Road

Calcutta 700029

Ph: +91 33 27021287

Fax: +91 33 28400286

E-mail: indrani.sanlaap@...

Please visit us at: www.sanlaapindia.org

[Guest guest]

Dear Forum members,

Re: /message/9224

Thank you for this lively debate on sex work as a profession.

I actually have a problem with understanding " sex work " .

I am a professional counsellor and have met several women who continue to live

with a man(in a marriage) who is physically, emotionally abusing them because he

has provided her a house to live in, food, clothes, children, a status in

society.

She provides sex because he may beat her if she refuses or he may leave her for

another woman or may not provide her all or any of the above. Sometimes these

women are coming from very affluent families sometimes not. Is she doing " sex

work " ? After all she is providing sex in exchange for something material or

status in society.

Seems to me that some of us -  the " good " , the " literate " and the " well

meaning "   people are labeling some people as " sex workers " and are accepting of

some others who are doing the same thing. Why are we discriminating?

Also, I have met men who sell sex to men and women though they identify

themselves as straight or gay. So, this is not an exclusively women's issue.

Why do we find it so hard to be non judgmental? Many of us with all good

intentions continue to discriminate. I believe in dignity of labour and

respecting people instead of focusing on what they do.

Counsellors/ therapists make a living out of other people's problems/

issues. Doctors and other Para medical staff make a living out of sickness and

illness, Models walk the ramp with all kinds of clothes, Actors do their their

thing.

But we don't seem to be having any moral issues with that. We believe we are

skilled in what we do but we refuse to believe that sex work involves certain

skills. I think they are skilled -Negotiation skills, decision making skills to

mention a couple and also i don't want to sound crude and blatant here but i

know sex work involves selling something specific like oral/ anal sex or other

things that i cannot mention here.

I think they have to be skilled in what they do or they are not going to have

anyone buying.

Magdalene Jeyarathnam

Director - Center For Counselling

18 Radhakrishnan Salai, 9th Street,

3rd Floor, Mylapore, Chennai 600 004

www.centerforcounselling.org

email- magdalene@...

telephone - 044- 42080810, mobile - 9884100135

[Guest guest]

Dear Friend,

Re: /message/9224

Well said. Why worry and give them names. We do not have to *legalise *or call

it *work* and make issues out of it. Making it *legalised work* we shall give

platform to *those* who are abusing them and making money out of them. I am sure

we do not want the same?

If there is a *minor (under 18 yrs of age) *she should be rescued and given

options in life. *It is a state responsibility.* If she is an adult, * she needs

to decide* what she wants to do. If she wants to come out I would and the state

should give her all the opportunities.* People (other than children) making

money out of her, living off her should be jailed.*

--

Ms. Indrani Sinha

Executive Director

SANLAAP

38B Mahanirban Road

Calcutta 700029

Ph: +91 33 27021287

Fax: +91 33 28400286

E-mail: indrani.sanlaap@...

Please visit us at: www.sanlaapindia.org

[Guest guest]

Dear FORUM,

/message/9225

What I will forever not understand is why we are hung up about sex work as work.

I never hear about livelihood alternatives for other unskilled

laborers who face horrendous abuses. Women have few options when they have not

had access to education. But we do not consider better livelihood options for

women working in factories, as

agriculturalists, vendors, house cleaners and as cooks.

Why is that? It's only because sex workers engage in

sex. Women's sexuality that is not 'controlled' clearly raises people's

anxieties.

I'm actually very concerned about the anti-trafficking models out there.

My research findings show that rescued girls are at grave risk at the hands of

anti-trafficking groups; their so-called rescuers. 'Rescued' girls are either

returned home to their original high risk situation or are placed in remand

homes where they are sexually exploited or otherwise imprisoned.

Our anxieties around women's unleashed sexuality have led us to place girls and

women at risk through these seemingly protective mechanisms. We need to bring

the anti-trafficking groups and HIV prevention groups together to figure out

better solutions.

We need to do better.

-------------

Magar (Dr.)

Research and Action for Change (REACH)

+919871419460

e-mail:<vbmagar@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

Re: /message/9224

I would like to thank for being a space that can help us have this

debate!

I would like to take this debate back to the issue of young girls, raids and

criminalisation. Why we are opposed to criminalisation as a method to stop young

girls from entering the trade?

We believe that prostitution is a system that exists in a society fraught with

inequalities.

Gender inequalities, economic inequalities, caste, class and race contribute to

a social fabric that is abusive of women's rights and the right of the girl

child, and to a culture that does not value the girl child. The girl child is

thus sacrificed at the altar of male dominated patriarchal systems that believes

they exist to be molded to accept a sexuality that is actually detrimental to

their health.

Abject poverty, drought, famine, and economic inequalities complete the picture.

While these structural issues are not the purview of this mail, they need to be

kept in mind while we search for a solution that is best for the `child in need

of care and protection'.

What is the best solution for a 'girl child in need of care and protection'?

A simplistic solution - such as raid and rescue- only offers patchwork relief,

and takes away the rights of the girl child by inflicting untold violence on her

in the process. The 'raid, rescue and rehabilitation' model blames the

community, pushing it to a corner of no return. Such strategies that have

violated the rights of the women in prostitution have not yielded good results

for generations.

Police are the most opressive arm of the state as far as women in prostitution

are concerned. neither the young girls nor the rest of the community trust the

police, so they react very negatively to such attempts.

We need solutions that strengthen the communities to come together and fight the

violence of trafficking for the purpose of prostitution. Be it of young

children, both boys and girls and adult women.

I really beleve that the more we criminalise this site of trafficking the more

the menace will go underground. The more `closed' the community - the worst is

the violence within it.

We need solutions that are long term and those that can be implemented

effectively. We need strategies that will strengthen women to resist being

pushed into those corners and build the will to reject the unacceptable and

illegal violation and sexual abuse of the girl child.

The collectivization of women in prostitution, which is a rights based approach,

is one such strategy. It creates a space for women in prostitution to

collectively look for solutions to their problems. It helps them to access

information and education about rights and to take informed decisions. It gives

them a vioce and freedom to access the law.

Criminalisation will only help the traffickers to conduct their buisness. The

more the clandestine atmosphere the more the exploitation of vulnerable persons.

 

The strategy to stop young girls/minors from entering prostitution is to

strengthen and educate women in prostitution to stop child sexual abuse.

Use of force, only pushes them underground and does not allow social workers to 

outreach them and educate them about the law.

To build collectives that will teach them dignity and strengthen them to stop

the menace of child trafficking and child sexual abuse.

Communities should be taken into confidence to ensure that minors do not replace

the ones rescued by the police.

To help collectives appoint `Traffickers Watch' to monitor persons who break the

law.

To educate women about their rights and help them fight for the same.

A last comment on the HIV programmes. It is incorrect to beleive that we

run HIV programmes to keep prostitution alive. Or that we argue for de-

criminalisation to keep the HIV funding alive.

Prostitution or sex work is not dependent on HIV funding nor is it dependent on

the activists/social workers who help run these programmes.

Sex work will be still here long after we and the HIV funding disappears. We

only want to ensure that it happens in a space and site that is free from

trafficking and traffickers and we all inhabit a world free of violence and

exploitation.

In solidarity,

Meena Saraswathi Seshu.

e-mail: <sangram.vamp@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear FORUM,

/message/9225

Hello! Actually I worry about `those' who make money out of sex workers and

their issues. Surely if we recognize sex work as work we can help create better

working conditions and stop the exploitation of sex workers and be better

equipped to fight traffickers?

If we as social activists can help state and society to accept sex work as work

then the areas where sex work is practiced can be extracted from the dark and

dingy spaces they have inhabited to date. I speak of the physical and the mental

space we have pushed them to occupy.

Sex workers have a right to live in a clean and healthy environment.

 

1. Free from exploitation.

2. Free from discrimination and stigma

3. Free from societal violence

4. Free from the accusation of being traffickers or associates of traffickers

5. Free to walk into a police station and file a complaint against `those' that

exploit them

6. Free to report abuse, sexual violence, exploitation mainly coercion, debt

bondage and slavery like practice.

7. Free to report children who are being sold for sex and otherwise

8. Free to access health care and ensure condom use

There are many benefits to de criminalisation. We need to strength the community

to fight injustice, by state and society, both within and from outside of the

communities. The best strategy for this is to strengthen sex workers to fight

back. Jailing a few unscrupulous persons is but patchwork.

 

In Solidarity,

Meena Saraswathi Seshu

e-mail: <sangram.vamp@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear FORUM,

/message/9225

Thanks to AIDS INDIA FORUM. the proficient views do help in enhancing

critical thinking.

It does make sense to analyze prostitution vis-A -vis Trafficking.

It also makes sense to relate prostitution with Child labour. It

also is important to discussion of sex work under the exploitation

and vulnerability lens and to talk of increased incidence of

unwanted pregnancies and unsafe abortions.

What did not make any sense at all was to say that HIV programme

thrive on prostitution. Prostitution and sex work is certainly not

put under glare for the sole purpose of fuelling HIV programmes.It is a bigoted

statement.

Regards,

Sudeshna Bhojia

Assistant Director

ICTC

Gujarat State AIDS Control Society

Ahmedabad

E-MAIL: <sudeshna_bhojia@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

Re: /message/9241

I am not going to for any long drawn discussion regarding this but i

just wanted to add some of my observations -

We choose to take up a job because it would help us survive - there

are many jobs we donot want to do, but we take up that job because -

there are no other jobs options that particular job pays us well,

we are happy doing that job, etc

Do we ask a sweeper a drainage clearner whether he orshe likes his

job ??

Do you ask the maid servant - how dignified she feels with her job ?

Regarding dignity - I would better do sex work and earn more than

work as a sweeper or drainage cleaner and get paid so little !

During my work i have interacted with a number of sex workers (both

male and female). I have closely interacted with female labourers, migrant

workers who have said that for a whole day's work of hard

labour they are able to only earn Rs. 60 to 80 whereas when they

agree to have sex with their contractors or other male labourers

their work load is reduced.

Additionally when they start doing sex work full time they manage to earn more

(Rs. 200 - 300)and have to give much less physical labour.

So if you are poor and not very educated - the only job options you have

involves hard labour (agricultural, construction, etc) and payments from such

work is also not very good.

But what if i want to earn more without putting in so much labour?

What if i donot have so much physical strength to do such hard

labour based job??

There was a suggestion that options such be provided - what kind of

options are you suggesting ?? - would you educate all women who are

poor and help them get a " DECENT " job which would pay them Rs. 200 -

300 (or more) per day ??

Even if you manage to do so - the women may want to earn more money

by doing sex work on the side - would you want to stop them from

doing that too ??

After all we all want to earn more, and earn comfortably - and not

by working our bones to the grave !!

Neither do i want to make baskets or prickle and sell them through

corporatives and earn a pittance

I have a body which i can sell any time any where and earn money

(comfortably with out too much physical labour).

Regards

Anupam Hazra

Kolkata

e-mail: <anupamhazra23@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear readers,

Re: /message/9241

I very much appreciate the continued and much needed discussion on HIV/AIDS,

sex-work, moral fabric of society and family values.

In this context I would like to ask everyone to consider the following

questions

1) Do you consider a sex-worker that is not able to negotiate protected sex the

cause of the spread of HIV or the most vulnerable to getting infected?

2) Does providing sex-workers the empowerment to refuse sex without condoms,

negotiate better conditions of work and living, provide them the dignity and

opportunities so that their children can get education, health care, etc. and

thus escape the fate of their parents decrease or increase the moral fabric of

society and family values?

3) Does providing empowerment and dignity to sex-workers decrease or increase

the chances for their rescue and rehabilitation?

I have asked many people these questions and the answers I have gotten after

people have had some time to think through them are

a1) most vulnerable

a2) increase

a3) increase

If these answers are indeed the consensus (hopefully I have not just talked to

like minded people), and if we accept that in the context of India even

criminalization of sex work will not stop or decrease its incidence (in the many

different, obvious and hidden, ways that have so carefully been explored in this

forum), then can we at least agree that the " harm reduction " approach is, if

nothing else, the first step to creating a better moral society with family

values?

Can the two camps not work together and agree that harm reduction is the first

step to the final desired solution? How does providing shade and water to a

dehydrated person on the street prevent someone else from providing her/him with

a house and a job?

I first wrote about this issue 5 years ago (see chapter VI in

http://t8web.lanl.gov/people/rajan/AIDS-india/MYWORK/Gupta_HIV_India.pdf )

and find the current debate very useful. At the same time I believe we need to

make real and serious scaling up of implementation of programs so that we can

address the urgent issues (i) reducing the incidence of HIV/AIDS and (ii)

creating a less exploitative society.

Sincerely

Rajan

e-mail: <rajan@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

Re: /message/9294

Anupam Hazra's response infact clearly reflects the " simplistic " view of the

choice/option of " decent " job that earns well.

The readiness to choose sexwork if it earns more, better and provides you with

comfortable earning. And resorting to doing " sex work by the side " in addition

to the hard less paying job which the woman is doing otherwise is an amazingly

fallacious, absolute naive and almost complete lack of understanding of the

reality of what she is talikng about.

Having worked (herself) with sexwork groups and women and seeing some of their

pathetic, exploitative and inhuman conditions anyone talking like that is not

only deplorable but also dangerous.

It is as if being a little thief is alright, killing once in a while (or jst for

fun) is OK if it lets me get on with my life. It is as if cheating one in a

while is justified, it is as if a little bit of corruption is OK, it is as if

telling lies is OK if it helps me gain a couple of hundreds for fulfilling my

desires and wishes!

 

The other argument of  " dignity " in maids work or sweeper or drainage cleaner and

feeling dignified is again a completely flawed way of looking at things.

Labour, whatever kind, is dignified if you do not have an a typical urbane look

down upon attitude on manual work. The dignity lies in the work ethic, work

culture and the worker upholding stance of doing once's well and not harming

anyone directly or indirectly and not feeling small just because it is hard,

difficult and earning lees than my neighbour or collegue.

Turning to " sex work by the side " is such an atrocious arguement, I am sure

the lobby which is pro sex work rights will also find it disgusting.

It is for the people who want shortcuts in life and are mesmerisied by the glam

and glitter of the sparking illusionary world of which I feel Anupam is a

victim. This is where the young college girls, the city slicker call girls,

bored rich women and women (same is true for men) who can not learn to live

within the boundaries of their needs and cloth. This is what drives to women

into voluntary prostitution.

Because it is easy, dangerous, quick money, gives a high, provides thrills and

gives you an escape from the so called had work life.

Anupam dear, life is hard and yet soft, life is limited and yet unlimited, life

is energy and yet energy draining, life is like that, but you just do not get

into sex work " by the side " or get into it because the maids job or the

Scretary'job or even the executive's job ar even a top level businesswomen or

actress job or even a top bureaucratic job or sometime even if your husband or

partner is not upto the mark in giving you the satisfaction you think you should

be getting.

This input, its content and its intent is infact potentially extremely

dangerous, the forum administrator has the right to put forward the opnions in

the basic argument of freedom of expression but I think the reason,

rationale and anybody in the right frame of mind would not be so naive, or brash

so as to sugggest it is OK to get into sex work " by the side " to earn a little

bit more!

Part time sex worker brigade! I shudder to even think on those lines.

Without being labelled and branded of being judgemental and being the moral

police brigade or the being from the consevative and orthodox generation of even

of being of a political color, I think the justification and rationalisation of

sex work on such flimsy ground does more dissservice to the good work being done

by people tryng to break the trafficking rackets.

Hopefully this will not be encouraging young girls (and even boys and men) to

think up of a sexwork as a part time earning option " by the side " !

Please!!!

 

Thanks

Dr Sanjeev Kumar

New Delhi India

e-mail: <sanjeevbcc@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

Re: /message/9241

I agree that we cannot discuss women in sex work and prostitution in a vacuum -

isolated from the experiences of other women and other workers.

If we must talk of choice, then yes, all 'choice' is circumscribed by

social, economic, political conditions - including the choices you and I make.

How can we believe that women do not 'choose' sex work, but that women 'choose'

to be domestic workers, vegetable vendors, construction workers, rag pickers?

Why are we not able to see that all people 'choose' from among the range of

options available to them? Why can't we understand that many women come to sex

work for the same reasons and through the same routes through which they enter

any other work? Usually to earn a living. (Yes, of course, some are trafficked,

as they are into other sectors, but this does not take away from the fact that

many enter sex work merely to earn a living).

And if we believe in struggling for the rights of other groups of women and

other workers - domestic workers, vegetable vendors, construction workers, rag

pickers - why would we not fight for the rights of women in sex work?

This categorization of all other workers as 'workers' and sex workers

as 'not workers' is not just hierarchical, it effectively turns sex

workers into 'untouchables'. How can struggles for social justice discriminate

against one group of women - and one group of workers like this?

Why do we believe that they are not entitled to the same rights and dignities

as you and me?

Bishakha Datta

Point of View

e-mail: pointofview@...

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

Re: /message/9241

Ms. Bishakha has put some very cogent views about the need of seeing things from

the proper perspectives.

 

Some of us remain judgemental and compartmentalize issues of availability of the

options/choices in accordance with our tubular visions.

 

The universality of human rights is talked about in meetings and mentioned in

articles and deliberations. Any efforts for practising the same are segregated

as per our mental blocks or as per the convenience of the person.

Bishakha has definitely put  a brilliant point of view indeed!!!

Let us all start seeing things from those perspectives.

Regards and best wishes,

 

Rajesh Gopal.

Dr. Rajesh  Gopal,MD

Joint Director,

Gujarat State AIDS Control  Society (GSACS),

O/1 Block, New Mental Hospital  Complex,

Meghaninagar, Ahmedabad, Gujarat.

PIN 380016 Phone (O) 079-22680211--12--13,22685210 Fax 079-22680214

e-mail: <dr_rajeshg@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear FORUM,

 

This is in response to Mr. Sanjeev Kumar's posting Re: Insecurity

pro-legalisation of sex work lobby

Re: /message/9294

I do not see why sex work should be likened to theft: theft is universally

acknowledged as a crime across the world, sex work is not. (Trafficking is).

Sex work is not illegal per se in India, although aspects related to it are. It

is legal in some countries (Netherlands, Germany), decriminalized in others (New

Zealand), aspects of it are illegal in others: eg in Turkey, street prostitution

is illegal but prostitution through government regulated brothels is legal. In

the United Kingdom, prostitution is not formally illegal, but several activities

surrounding it are outlawed. In Canada, prostitution itself is legal, but most

other activities around it are not. In Brazil and Costa Rica prostitution per se

is legal, but taking advantage or profit from others' prostitution is illegal.

Many things rob workers of their dignity - one of them is the stigma of being

likened to a criminal (thief) when one is not. When one is merely working for a

living.

Also, all persons in the world - rich, poor, middle-class - seek to maximize

their earnings by making 'choices' within their context from those that are

available to them. if one can strip it of moral fervour, why would one not see

the 'choice' to earn more out of sex work (than domestic work, construction work

etc) as a rational economic choice in a particular context?

Why do construction workers supplement their incomes through sex work, as

several studies have shown? Not because sex work is 'easy money', but because

everybody needs to make two ends meet.

No work involving the body is 'easy' as such - not construction work,

not sex work, not ragpicking, nothing. Let's not build hierarchies of easy vs

hard (in addition to the hierarchies we have built around dignity) eg

construction work is 'hard' therefore dignified; sex work is 'easy money'

therefore undignified.

But similarly let's not do the opposite and assume that sex work is

'pathetic' and inhuman' when it's not - that's what millions

of sex workers have to say. Exploitative, yes, like every other industry in the

informal sector, where those in power dictate terms.

If we are really that concerned about the exploitations within sex work (as

opposed to sex work itself being exploitative), why aren't we trying to better

working conditions for the millions of women in it? Why aren't we trying to

ensure that they get a larger share of their earnings? That they work

standardized hours? That they face less violence: from the police, clients,

goondas etc? That they get health care and treatment? Instead of seeing them as

thieves wohy don't we feel they have the same rights as others working for a

living - to work free of exploitation?

As for the statement: " Part time sex worker brigade! I shudder to even

think on those lines " , all I can say is this: " Sure, shudder away,

while millions of women in construction and domestic work continue to slog part

time as sex workers. " That's the brigade.

Bishakha Datta

e-mail: <pointofview@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

Re: /message/9294

I want to respond to the posting on Anupam's response.

First, thank you Anupam. I think the difficulty is in dealing with the fact that

there are some persons out there in the wide world who turn to `sex work on the

side'. Yes it is possible. It is a reality, whether we like it or not. Whether

it fits our politics or not and whether we accept it or not.

 

I know many housewives who do `sex work on the side'. Not only for survival but

for some luxuries, some sex, some money and some for a living. There are many

persons who do all kinds of `work on the side'.

I think the discomfort about the concept `sex work on the side' for a few

luxuries is because there is a resistance to accept that sex work is work. The

discomfort stems from the fact that penetrative sex is used as a tool for

material and physical gains in many situations by a large number of persons.

Some in an overt manner and some camouflaged to suit the dominant norm of sex

and love.

 

I'm sure there are many persons out there who exchange sex purely for love or

exchange love purely for sex. Humans are complex and the expression of sexuality

is made more complex by controlling and dominant norms enforced by state and

society.

 

I can see two scenarios

Persons who use sex as a tool can only do so for the sole purpose of survival.

These persons should be understood and helped by society.

If survival is not the question then such use of sex and body as a mere tool,

would violate the concepts of sex and love, of decency and sacredness, of

acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Such persons should be looked down upon

and all policies to eliminate such behavior implemented. This is the reason why

one would equate such behavior to thieving, killing and other criminal behavior.

Thus the strategies to deal with sex work. Either treat the persons doing so as

victims or treat them as criminalsâ depending on the reasons for doing sex work.

The issue of `pathetic, exploitative and inhuman conditions' is most important.

The fact that most persons in sex work today are in deplorable working

conditions is the truth and we need to work to fight for non-abusive, better

living and working conditions.

The fight for dignity cannot be complete within such abusive conditions.

 

The fear of people opting for sex work comes from a worldview that conforms to

the dominant norm of controlled sexual conditioning and behavior. Those that

fight for the rights of sex workers fight for the right to sex work also.

In solidarity,

 

Meena Saraswathi Seshu.

SANGRAM/VAMP

e-mail: <sangram.vamp@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear forum,

/message/9303

We are thankful to the people who keep this discussion on sex work continuing.

We appreciate and totally agree with Meena Seshu's , Bishaka's and Anupam's view

in these discussions. As some discussions are about MSM as well, we as a senior

MSM CBO in Tamil Nadu would like to convey our view and facts.

 

The definitions used in this discussion to date make some key assumptions that

restrict our ability to understand wholly how sex work happens. This may be in

part a result of targeted intervention programming that has imparted extremely

limiting definitions of " high risk groups " and has led many to believe in overly

simplistic notions of what constitutes an MSM, a sex worker and sex work.

 

It is our experience that trade can occur at the time of a sex act without being

the prime reason or cause for the sex. It does serve as a motivating factor to a

lesser or greater extent depending on the situation and person, however pleasure

and love are also powerful motivating factors.

There are assumptions like sex work runs against love - sexual encounters in a

sex-for-trade context are meaningless and are only about making money. There are

instances where a group of MSM buys sex for their pleasure. They also sell sex

for money or other kind of things. They accept or reject partners according to

their wish.

Once they like and establish contact with a partner or new customer, many

reported that they do enjoy pleasure and also develop a relationship with that

customer.

 

We agree few or many may not have the choice of accepting or rejecting partners

as per their wish and could not practice their work in a safe environment. Also

few or many don't want to continue in the sex work.

This is not only in sex work. Many people in the world do not like or enjoy

their current job for various reasons and no doubt, they have their right to

quit their job and to choose (the) another one.

 

The point we want to illustrate is that there are people who enjoy sex work and

they believe that is a meaningful job for their life.

 

As many of us said in the earlier discussions, trafficking might happen in the

place where sex work happens. The anti trafficking activities and related

activists should focus only on combating the trafficking not the sex work.

The very important need is we should arrive on clear definitions between

trafficking and selling/ buying sex so that people who want to continue and want

to choose sex work will practice it in a respectful manner.

 

We strongly believe every individual should have the right to sell or buy sex.

 

P.Kannan,

Administrator,

Lotus Sangam

e-mail: <lotus_sangam@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear Forum,

Re: /message/9303

I think my posting touched a raw nerve by raising the " sex by the side " issue

given the reaction that it has generated. First of all, Meena, Gopa and Bishakha

and Anupam Hazra in the first place and of course let us not leave Sunita out

from the forum where it all started.

I think there are several issues here - sex work, legislation, sex by the side,

rights, dignity, and exploitation and trafficking among other related dimesions.

Many of them have been raised and points of views presented. I am not going to

get into that. But what I raised and the resposne to that is what I would like

take forward.

I think what is also forgotten or gets overlooked is the word " commecial " sex

work.

and we tend to erronously remain on the " work " issue. I think the more

contentious issue is the word " commecial " and its connotation.

And this is where the link to livilihood and work comes from. " Commecial " sex

work by its very expression mean there is " non commercial " sex work. So any sex

which happend between two martital partners, consenting partners, persons in

love where no " commercial " exchange or payoff are involved is non commercial

(this does not mean that in " non commercial " sex no exchange or game is not

played).

Tomorrow if wives and/or husbands and lovers and partners strate calculating

what could be value of the sexual exchange or favours or relational intimacy,

" work " , would have meant in term of commercial value or contribution to GDP or

per capita income for the person would start to make sense.

Of course there will be certification and quality issue of the sexual work

services provided. there will be training schools, specialisation short term

course in sexual artistry and porn star queens and porn models which will be

advertised and taxes paid.

There will be HR executives who will " test " knowledge and skills and

competencies in sexual prowess. There will be annual increment for commercial

sex workers, pension schemes for sex workers and of course they will undergo

health check ups and disease free certifications displayed in wooden frames hung

on the walls for better pricing.

There is suport price declaration for commercial sex workers where are no

buyers. Only people who can not sell their skills and earn their livilihoods

from their sexual services will marry because in marriage you will not only get

sexual service (even if they are average) but other perks and payoffs and of

course not to forget dignity and insurance and security.

Let us for one moment get away from the analogy of sex work with thieving,

crime, killing, pickpocketing (let us also rememeber these are difficult skills

not everyone has or is good at), let us look at blood donation - to

apropritively put the context- commercial blood donation vs voluntary

blood donation. There was money to be made by " selling blood " commecially. it is

my body, my blood so if I sell it for survival, or for a little extra by the

side, what is your problem.

Whether I buy drugs, cigarettes, alcohol or watch a cinema out of that money

what is your problem! or I need it for basic necessasities. I am dignified in

selling my blood as and when I want it. I have come to this

" work/proffession/occupation " by choice - I am not incapabale or phyically

disabled. But we banned " commercial " blood donation. We encourage " voluntary "

blood donation. It is respectable and even cosidered " noble " for us to donate

blood voluntarily even beyond " replacement " .

There are people who regularly donate blood without any commecial gain,

involvement or need. It saves lives. it is also availabe free to people who need

it but can not afford it at times. is this to say we have denied rights and

dignity to people who were using blood donation as a commercial activity. Have

we denied them their livilihood options. After all we choose what gives us

survival, pleasure and satisfaction.

Instead of working on conditions which force people to come to selling sex, or

working on people who exploit poor and vulnerable girls and women to come into

the flesh trade we want to dignify it by giving a legal status and make it as a

career option.

Who can deny that " noble " prostitutes " with a heart of gold " only exist in films

or in literature and not in real life.

Women in sex not only are and exploited lot but they also are exploiters. They

learn, prctice the tricks of the trade and use it on vulnerable, gullible, and

sometine naive and innocent clients.

Experineced prostitutes are clever, cunning and know how to trick, camoflague,

manipulate and use the dark and shadowy and nervous moments into monets and

feeling of release and ecstasy. 

The whole issue of having " sex by the side "  for making that extra buck or even

survival or making life less misrable or less difficult when you use as a tool

for favours or for the extras, or for undue advantages is deplorable.

Relationships and marriages are based on mutual trust, respect and caring and

sharing. Indiscretion or giving into lust or making the best of opportunity, or

just for fun  and thrill of it, or it was one night stand which will not make

nay difference in my relationship or marriage but hugely solve the problem I

think I was facing is not called " dignified " or " so what? " .

Remember " Indecent Proposal " and many such Indian versions. I also know it is a

reality and it happens sometime with the knowledge of the partner and sometimes

without. Some times it happens because of fantasy and some time because of a not

so fulfilling relationship.

But when it takes " commercial " manifestation then there is a problem. Sex

involves two people.

It is not just an activity, product or service or skill or commodity which can

sold. The regulation of sex and intitutionalisation of relationship into

marriage is not a exercise in normatives and control of sexuality, it is with

full knowledge, social sanction and understanding that both parties will abide

by the rules and respect the sanctity of the relationship not just with and

amongst themselves but accountable to the larger community and society.

So when you want approval for " sex by the side " and " why should boys have all

the fun "  and couch it in the high ground of dignity, livilihood and choice, it

surprises me.

Fighting against the very nature exploitative nature of sex trade, fighting to

eradicate it, minimise it, and helping people to get out of it and working

towards people not getting into it and fighting people aprocesses which force,

and exploit people to come to this trade is justified but it is not right to use

the platform to encourage, rationalise ( Sex by the side!) and glamorise sex

trade and provide it false and forged dignity and couch it with expression

like working for the cause of the sex workers and sex work!

Let us not emulate models and examples from the west or east or north or south

countries and use public health platforms for our petty politics and personal

agendas.

Do not make money and careers out of people's miseries and tragedies. Work

towards alieviating it and not making it viable, attractive and justified.

 

I know the debate is not over yet but that is the the beauty of touching a raw

nerve...

Thanks

Dr Sanjeev Kumar

New Delhi India

e-mail: <sanjeevbcc@...>

[Guest guest]

Dear Forum

Re: /message/9294

This is a personal view regarding the issue of legalisation of sex work. But,

contributions from you all would definitely make us see both sides of the coin.

I feel, sex should be legalised, but there should conditions attached to it, as

it is with any other trade. It might sound very inhuman,atrocious but we can't

close our eyes and presume that certain thigs have stopped existing.

I have seen situations were the government body has literaly demolished the red

light area and claimed to have cleaned up. But, is it really that simple? Sex

workers have now started visiting all the public places.

I feel there should rules made for them(sex workers). They should carry a health

card,visit a clinic monthly, authorised by AIDS group in that area.if anyone is

found to be positive for hiv,hbsag, should stop working etc etc. once a set of

rules are formulated, not only we can have check on this disease, we can also

treat those who suffer from any transmissible disease.

These sex workers might come forward on their own for any kind of treatment.

Anand Thakur

e-mail: <sidads@...>