Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 > >1. If you choose to call yourself an 'alcoholic' and choose to apply the > >term to yourself with the definition AA uses, then yes, YOU BELONG IN AA. > >2. However, if you reject the disease model of 'alcoholism' {whatever that > >may be, mind you} then you do not belong in AA. > > <snipped for relevance> > > I'd just like to respond to the statement above expressed in [1]. > > If someone calls themself an " alcoholic " , it does not mean they therefore > " belong in AA " . They would be calling themself that in ignorance, in the > mistaken belief that the term has some meaning. Since AA is ineffective, > and uses a made-up model that does not represent reality, one could argue > that anyone calling themself " alcoholic " is suffering from a mistaken and > artificial view of their behaviour and would instead benefit from being in > some educational setting where they can find out the accurate information > they need to resolve their problem, instead of the useless AA mythology. > The idea of " belonging in AA " I think, is pretty meaningless, it is like > " belonging in Scientology " . We are people with minds, can choose for > ourselves where to go and what to do. > > > Joe B. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- , baby, dont get, crazy. detours, fences, I get, defensive. all kidding aside Joe I think thats hogwash. Are you saying that AA does not serve a purpose? Are you an ex-grouper? If so, then you would acknowledge that the program is very effective for the 5% who choose to make a carreer out of it. Whether alcoholism is an actual disease or not is irrelevant to the fact that the 5% who actually 'get sober' and 'stay sober' in AA have convinced themselves that yes, it IS a disease. Having done that, they assume that it is this program of AA that keeps them 'sober' {ie; abstinent} one day at a time. Yes, I feel that it is all psychological myself but I certainly do not reserve the right to make fun of the people who choose it as a means to an end. It's like religion, really. You have to concede this point, dear fellow: There are people who were really, really, (i mean REALLY) fucked up on alcohol and now they are sober, as a result of AA. Just because the program wasnt my bag (mainly because I am not an 'alcoholic') doesnt mean it aint for somebody else. Everything that you said in your post is true; for you. But it's not true for someone else. So stop acting like a know it all. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 At 13:05 14/01/00 -0800, you wrote: >all kidding aside Joe I think thats hogwash. Are you saying that AA does not >serve a purpose? Are you an ex-grouper? If so, then you would acknowledge >that the program is very effective for the 5% who choose to make a carreer >out of it. I would have said so once. Now I don't think so. Some time ago, when I believed that the people in AA would not have been able to get sober without it, then I would have said it was successful for those people. I was one of those people myself for a number of years and I had the mental health problems that many " successful " AA and NA members seem to have, which I now attribute to the negative effect of the program itself. I subsequently fond out, as I slowly and painfully deprogrammed myself from all the superstitious bs and pseudoscience (or " the facts of alcoholism " as some would call it), that the claims commonly made in AA about its effectiveness, which are unquestioningly believed by its members and many others, do not stand up to critical examination. Couple this with the interesting view that because of its negative predictions AA attendance will actually lower your chances of staying sober, and then it doesn't look like so effective to me. Nowadays I think I stayed sober in spite of it, not because of it. >Whether alcoholism is an actual disease or not is irrelevant to the fact >that the 5% who actually 'get sober' and 'stay sober' in AA have convinced >themselves that yes, it IS a disease. Having done that, they assume that it >is this program of AA that keeps them 'sober' {ie; abstinent} one day at a >time. Yes, I feel that it is all psychological myself but I certainly do not >reserve the right to make fun of the people who choose it as a means to an >end. It's like religion, really. I don't see why we can't make fun of ignorance and foolishness. The 12 step philosophy is straight out of the dark ages; it is medieval nonsense with no basis in fact and it harms people. There is nothing sacred about it. >You have to concede this point, dear fellow: >There are people who were really, really, (i mean REALLY) fucked up on >alcohol and now they are sober, as a result of AA. Well so you say, but the evidence just isn't there. Having a number of people collectively keeping themselves sober who BELIEVE it is AA and God that is doing it doesn't prove that it IS AA and God that is doing it; it is a belief, not a fact. Believing it does not make it true. It is like saying- " We believe the world is flat and we would fall off the edges if we sailed too close to them. So we keep well away from the edges, and we haven't fallen off, so that proves we are right- it proves the world is flat " . At one time a lot of people thought like this, and I believe myself that the AA belief system works exactly the same way. > Just because the program >wasnt my bag (mainly because I am not an 'alcoholic') doesnt mean it aint >for somebody else. >Everything that you said in your post is true; for you. >But it's not true for someone else. Do you realise that sounds very similar to the AA statement, often heard from the good burghers of AA; " I only have my own experience to share and I know what works for me, I can't say what works for anyone else " . They would say this and usually very soon after would be lecturing someone on how to stay sober, how many meetings they should be going to, and how they gotta work those steps if they don't want to die drunk. >So stop acting like a know it all. When you are debating something, an ad hominem (personal and off the point) attack on the other person doesn't really help your case. And if I actually did know a bit more than you about this- what's so terrible about that? I don't know how much you've read of the really good critical evaluations of AA's " effectiveness " , but I could suggest some books if you were interested. Assuming of course you haven't already read them, Vince Fox's " Addiction, Change and Choice " is very good, also " Alcoholics Anonymous, Cult or Cure " by Bufe, and " The Real AA " by Ken Ragge. And " The Small Book " by Jack Trimpey is a riot, I have woken up the neighbours in the dead of night laughing out loud as I read that- but I wouldn't read that one first! He's a bit extreme. But mostly hits the nail on the head nevertheless. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 It looks folks like " the fez " is another group infiltrator or apologist who is trying to tell us what we can and cannot say abt AA., and trying to sneak AA orthodox thinking in as if it were fact. wonder why you choose to be ANONYMOUS fez? what might your reasons for that be I wonder? Fwiw, that of that 5% 73% still drink, but that's not the point. I will say abt AA what I damn well please, fez, and like GP, you can say what you like abt this list - SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 Pete: We can't chase everyone away from this list simply because the manner in which they disagree with someone doesn't agree with our delicate sensibilities. Was he a bit of a shit towards the end of his original post? Yes but..... ly handled it rather well. Re: Joe B. [ Warner] It looks folks like " the fez " is another group infiltrator or apologist who is trying to tell us what we can and cannot say abt AA., and trying to sneak AA orthodox thinking in as if it were fact. wonder why you choose to be ANONYMOUS fez? what might your reasons for that be I wonder? Fwiw, that of that 5% 73% still drink, but that's not the point. I will say abt AA what I damn well please, fez, and like GP, you can say what you like abt this list - SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Want to send money instantly to anyone, anywhere, anytime? You can today at X.com - and we'll give you $20 to try it! Sign up today at X.com. It's quick, free, & there's no obligation! http://click./1/332/1/_/4324/_/947908367/ -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! -- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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