Re: surgen recommends surgery

[Guest guest]

thanks you guys for your insight it's very helpful. the surgeon

I'm seeing is a neurosurgeon. I've been through physical therapy

it helped a little.

the surgeon says my 3 options are, live with the pain, spinal shots, or

surgery. hopefully i chose right. i have 3 weeks til it happens soooooo. i had a

heart attack 3 yrs ago when i was 45, this is scarier than that. LOL

--- Bennie wrote:

> My neurosurgeon actually is trained in spinal surgeries and also does the

neurostimulators. He had additional schooling in Spinal Surgeries so I picked

him over a orthopedic surgeon although both are good. I just wanted to share

that neurosurgeons do spinal surgeries and that is part of their training.

>

> I did have courses of physical therapy and water therapy (swimming in the

water), heat packs and ultrasound, way before I decided on spinal surgery so I

agree with trying these courses of treatment before surgery.

[Guest guest]

--- " davncar " wrote:

>

>> the surgeon says my 3 options are, live with the pain, spinal shots, or

surgery.

Those are NOT the only options, and that statement right there makes me

extremely suspicious of the quality and motives of that surgeon!

And by the way, those " shots " he's referring to are not even an FDA-approved

procedure and are extremely dangerous, and have been shown in reputable study

after reputable study to not work at all. Doctors do them to make money, no

other reason. Anyone who has had relief from them is because the doctor doing

them included a temporary anaesthetic in with the steriods to give the patient

an immediate and TEMPORARY " bump " of pain relief in order to convince them it's

working so they'll come back for more. That temporary bump isn't fixing

anything - you might as well take a pain pill and not have the risk of permanent

and much worse damage due to the shots.

So what are your other options? All the GOOD research shows that aggressive

physical therapy is the single best treatment for herniated/bulging disks. That

means getting an extremely knowledgeable therapist (someone with a Ph.D. in

physical therapy and with many years experience in treating this exact problem,

and who will make you work your butt off in therapy!) and going for several

months several times a week, and doing all the exercises very religiously at

home on the days between visits. My experience is that most therapists are not

trained well enough and aren't willing to really work with you. They hand you a

sheet of paper with some light exercises and turn you over to a tech and sign

you out after two weeks. That's not going to do it. You need someone who will

fight your insurance for you to keep you in therapy, and someone who will apply

every modality and work with you for the entire hour and a half you should be in

the appointment.

Second, " medical management " of chronic pain (meaning use of a variety of

differnt medications) IS a valid and appropriate option. Surgeons simply aren't

trained in medical chronic pain management. They fix immediate injuries, they

don't treat long-term pain. To treat chronic pain medically, you'll need an

expert in chronic pain management. This doesn't just mean " pain meds, " although

they're an appropriate option (and very safe with few side effects when properly

prescribed). It can also include medications such as seizure drugs (used off

label for nerve pain - I have great success with one of these for my neuropathy

caused by spinal problems), muscle relaxants, anti-depressants (again, used off

label for certain kinds of nerve pain), among others.

There are also other options that can be used in combination with these

treatments. Some people have great success with accupuncture for pain

management - at the very least it can treat the secondary muscle cramping that

results from nerve pain and that makes that pain worse. I find that deep tissue

massage also helps relieve the secondary muscle pain created from " guarding. "

There is a psychotherapy called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy that I found very

helpful - it doesn't suggest that the pain is " all in your head, " it simply

helps you find ways to cope that actually CAN reduce your pain levels. For

example, it works with patients to find ways to pace activities in a way that

doesn't make pain worse but allows the patient to enjoy everyday activities

more.

So there are other options besides the three sad little choices your doctor gave

you.

My recommendation is to seek several " second " opinions, including one from a

chronic pain management doctor, before escalating to surgery.

Another thing to keep in mind is that everyone here has mostly a bad opinion of

surgery because our surgeries (mine included) didn't work or made things worse.

If a person had a successful surgery that cured his/her pain, that person

wouldn't be on this group! So the answers you get here may be biased toward the

negative.

At the very least, I suggest that you ask your surgeon his success rate, then

ask him how he is defining " success. " Ask him how long he follows up with

patients to determine if their pain is relieved. Ask him specifically if he's

doing it to treat your pain or if he's recommending surgery to fix a structural

problem - most surgeons will admit that surgery is not done to relieve pain.

See whether or not you like those answers before you decide to go through with

this.

Cheryl in AZ

Moderator

[Guest guest]

> --- " davncar " <davncar4fun@> wrote:

> >

> >> the surgeon says my 3 options are, live with the pain, spinal shots, or

surgery.

>

>

Let me add one more thing. I know from my own experience, when you've been in

pain a while, it's so tempting to think that you could just have a surgery and

this would all be fixed and all go away and life will be just like it was

before. I know I felt that way. I just wanted it all to go away, and I trusted

the surgeon to be able to make that happen.

It didn't happen for me. The surgery made things much worse.

Now I'm not saying that you'll have the same outcome. But what I'm trying to

communicate is what I learned from the process - there's no " quick fix " to the

problem of herniated disks and the resulting chronic pain. It takes work, and

time, and effort. It takes going to a lot of doctors to find a group of them

that together can treat chronic pain appropriately. It takes going to physical

therapy and working your butt off in it, even if you have surgery, because the

therapy is necessary to recover function after the surgery. Even if you have

the surgery and your pain gets some relief, you'll have to manage this situation

the rest of your life - including managing weight, doing exercises, changing the

way you do things physically and changing the way you approach problems

mentally, etc etc to keep from reinjuring the location or managing the

continuing pain than can occur.

The good news is that it IS possible to live with chronic pain and have a good

life, but it doesn't happen quickly and it doesn't happen without a lot of hard

work and some amount of good luck. I was lucky that I had insurance and lucky

that I found great doctors who helped me - but it took a lot of work and time

(years!) to find those doctors after sifting through a bunch of really bad ones,

and it required that I suffered for several years to keep working without pain

management in order to keep that insurance. I was extremely lucky that I had a

job that gave me some flexibility about working from home or setting my own

hours so that I was able to keep working - - if I'd had to go stand in an

assembly line eight hours a day I never could have done it! But it was still

excruciating and the hardest thing I've ever done. But the result was worth it!

Life is better for me now than it has been in the last 10 years. I'll never be

free from pain, but I can manage it. There is hope.

The other lesson I learned is that life changes. Even a successful surgery won't

mean that life can go back the way it was. Even a successful surgery may not

mean the complete elimination of pain, and another injury down the road can put

us right back where we started in a heartbeat. But you learn to deal with it.

I used to feel like I'd hit a brick wall - the pain was the wall, and I couldn't

get over it. I felt helpless. But I learned that even if I couldn't get over

the wall, I could work my way around or under or even through that wall - I just

had to find a new way of approachig the problem. I've learned to adopt the

attitude that life happens and change happens, we just have to deal with it as

it does - no doctor can guarantee me that I'll stay in this good place, and I

know now that whatever happens I'm strong enough to handle it. I'll find a way

around, under, over, or through whatever wall life throws up in front of me.

Just be conscious of how much you want this surgery because of how much you want

for it to " all go away " and for life to get back to " normal. " That's perfectly

understandable. And surgery may be the right decision for you. But don't let

desperation make the decision for you. Take the time to get several opinions

from several doctors, try different options, and know that you made the choice

because it was right, and not just because you're hoping it will be the " quick

fix " that we all dream of but that just doesn't exist.

Okay, enough philosophizing for now. Hope you find something helpful here.

Cheryl in AZ

Moderator

[Guest guest]

Cheryl,

That's the P.T. I started out with, in my 20's, after she took all my info,

looked at my reports. Marked off a few exercises pre-printed on a sheet, sent me

to a corner to do them. I started, then came back to her, to ask for someone to

make sure I was doing them right & how many to do. What a nasty 'B* & *ch she was,

but sent over, I think was her sister who looked barely 16.

As I was doing the exercises, the 'girl' was staring into space, cleaning under

her nails, or whatever. I ask questions a lot, how am I going to find anything,

so I'd ask the 'girl' 'is this as far as I should move my leg'?, or whatever '?'

I had, I got a nasty answer back & my leg JERKED back to the right spot. This

person, the owner ruined P.T. for me, her name was also 'Cheryl', but her place

was the only one my Ins. would pay for.

I had to go to her ONLY for about 6yrs. She was going to do pool therapy with

me, until she found out I didn't have a pool. Even when I told her my sister had

a pool & that yr. we joined the YMCA, certain hrs. I could use the pool. I don't

know if it was cause she didn't like me or what her problem was, she still

should should of done her job.

Once when the 'Girl' was running the 'Tens unit' machine I think that's whats it

'called'? She asked me what I kind of 'job I had, when I told her I worked part

time, she answered...'The rest of the day you stay home & DO NOTHING'. THAT DID

IT FOR ME! Yeah I had the kool-aid house, 3 young kids, 2 of which went to a

'pre-school' thing, where the parents interacted, rescued Animals, cleaned house

after work until early in the morning. I DON'T CALL THAT..DOING NOTHING.

After I 'told' her a few things, she deserved them, I demanded to leave. This

was fighting & asking for the P.T. I thought I deserved, I didn't want someone

by my side at all times, tell me how many exercises to do, watch me a few times

to let me know I was doing them right, that's all. Or if I had a question,

answer it, not tell me 'keep working on that machine', that didn't answer my

question. Treat me fairly, as you do your other parents, especially the men, she

didn't leave their side.

One person who showed me how I doing the exercises wrong, how I should get out

of bed, a car, just took time with me. Was a person who was working there as

part of her schooling. Oh, by the way I HAVE been doing many of the exercises

wrong, for a long time, I got more out of that session then any other.

When Dr's say P.T., I cringe. Just had a Lady for a few wks., who came to my

house. I took one of my cats to the Vet that morning, he happened to call when

she was there. She said the call wasn't important...SHE WAS THERE. NOT IN MY

HOME! I took the call, all of 3 mins. Yes I know they have a schedule, but the

Vet thought my cat had Cancer, she can stop for 3 mins. This was just as

important to me, as she was. Sorry if everyone things I was wrong, Animals come

first in this house, especially mine.

> Cheryl wrote:

> Those are NOT the only options, and that statement right there makes me

extremely suspicious of the quality and motives of that surgeon!

[Guest guest]

Cheryl wrote:

> Just be conscious of how much you want this surgery because of how much you

want for it to " all go away " and for life to get back to " normal. " That's

perfectly understandable. And surgery may be the right decision for you. But

don't let desperation make the decision for you. Take the time to get several

opinions from several doctors, try different options, and know that you made the

choice because it was right, and not just because you're hoping it will be the

" quick fix " that we all dream of but that just doesn't exist.

Cheryl,

The only thing I can add to that is AMEN. Also, if a Doctor does say a surgery

can cure your pain, Run, as fast as you can away from him/her.

Spinal surgeries usually do not get rid of the pain and my Doctor emphasized

that. He said, we can give you more function and maybe take care of the numbness

but Degenerative Disc Disease is a process.

Chery knows from which she speaks of and this is a story repeated for many.

Thank you Cheryl for writing this so effectively, I felt as if were my story,

except for the auto accident that I just " HAD' to have on the way home from

physical therapy from my spinal surgery thus causing me another type of pain to

deal with.

Oh yeah, Davncar, your Doctor forgot medication therapy which is one of the most

effective ways of dealing with pain.

Bennie