Re: Suicidal Story Contributor

[Guest guest]

At 12:58 AM 12/30/99 -0800, Mike May wrote:

>Hi Jan,

> As far as I can remember, Dr. Bob died of old age.

As I remeber, Dr. Bob was getting quite old, though when he died ca. 1959

or 1960 it also of a smoking-related illness.

>I will have to look

>to confirm that one though. Bill died from emphasema, he was a

>cronic smoker.

As was I and as are a very large percentage of AA'ers.

>One of the reasons AA was started was because the Oxford

>Group believed that Alkies couldn't quit drinking if they still smoked.

And they probably still believed that even after AA had been around a

while. ;-)

>Also if you consider that AA teaches that you are not really sober if you

>use drugs, then Bill was not sober for the last ten years of his

>sobriety, as he used LSD many times to improve his concious contact with

>his higher power. Some higher power eh.

A few people, even in 12-step programs, consider nicotine and/or caffeine

to be drugs, and believe you're really not 'clean' until you quit these also.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

i would never imply anyone smoking is insane they way NA probably

would, but i quit smoking at 9 months sober, and tell you truth i

really felt mentally clearer and emotionally more at ease than i could

ever remember. i still say i never really was really totally " sober "

until i quit smoking.

on a note on smoking in AA, someone posted a study on some list wish

should that people who were followed in AA attendance over the years

something like 60% died from smoking related illness. of course this

was in one study, and it probably was made up of people from a previous

generation which generally smoked more any ways. i found it ironic that

they were so worried about dying from drinking, they ignored they were

killing themselves with the cigs.

ben bradley wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10852

> At 12:58 AM 12/30/99 -0800, Mike May wrote:

> >Hi Jan,

> > As far as I can remember, Dr. Bob died of old age.

>

> As I remeber, Dr. Bob was getting quite old, though when he died

ca. 1959

> or 1960 it also of a smoking-related illness.

>

> >I will have to look

> >to confirm that one though. Bill died from emphasema, he was a

> >cronic smoker.

>

> As was I and as are a very large percentage of AA'ers.

>

> >One of the reasons AA was started was because the Oxford

> >Group believed that Alkies couldn't quit drinking if they still

smoked.

>

> And they probably still believed that even after AA had been

around a

> while. ;-)

>

> >Also if you consider that AA teaches that you are not really sober

if you

> >use drugs, then Bill was not sober for the last ten years of

his

> >sobriety, as he used LSD many times to improve his concious contact

with

> >his higher power. Some higher power eh.

>

> A few people, even in 12-step programs, consider nicotine and/or

caffeine

> to be drugs, and believe you're really not 'clean' until you quit

these also.

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Not to mention lack of exercise, as well as adequate intellectual

stimulation. (use it or lose it, I say) I always thought it loony that

people put so much effort into fixing the roof of the delapitated house

(meaning attending to the drinking problem) while letting the walls and

foundation crumble (meaning ignoring other health issues)

Apple

>

> on a note on smoking in AA, someone posted a study on some list wish

> should that people who were followed in AA attendance over the years

> something like 60% died from smoking related illness. of course this

> was in one study, and it probably was made up of people from a

previous

> generation which generally smoked more any ways. i found it ironic

that

> they were so worried about dying from drinking, they ignored they were

> killing themselves with the cigs.

>

> ben bradley wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=108

52

> > At 12:58 AM 12/30/99 -0800, Mike May wrote:

> > >Hi Jan,

> > > As far as I can remember, Dr. Bob died of old age.

> >

> > As I remeber, Dr. Bob was getting quite old, though when he died

> ca. 1959

> > or 1960 it also of a smoking-related illness.

> >

> > >I will have to look

> > >to confirm that one though. Bill died from emphasema, he

was a

> > >cronic smoker.

> >

> > As was I and as are a very large percentage of AA'ers.

> >

> > >One of the reasons AA was started was because the Oxford

> > >Group believed that Alkies couldn't quit drinking if they still

> smoked.

> >

> > And they probably still believed that even after AA had been

> around a

> > while. ;-)

> >

> > >Also if you consider that AA teaches that you are not really sober

> if you

> > >use drugs, then Bill was not sober for the last ten years of

> his

> > >sobriety, as he used LSD many times to improve his concious contact

> with

> > >his higher power. Some higher power eh.

> >

> > A few people, even in 12-step programs, consider nicotine and/or

> caffeine

> > to be drugs, and believe you're really not 'clean' until you quit

> these also.

> >

> > -----

> > http://listen.to/benbradley

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan,

As far as I can remember, Dr. Bob died of old age. I will have to look

to confirm that one though. Bill died from emphasema, he was a

cronic smoker. One of the reasons AA was started was because the Oxford

Group believed that Alkies couldn't quit drinking if they still smoked.

Also if you consider that AA teaches that you are not really sober if you

use drugs, then Bill was not sober for the last ten years of his

sobriety, as he used LSD many times to improve his concious contact with

his higher power. Some higher power eh.

Mike

At 09:55 PM 12/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:

> Catching up on mail from weeks ago . . . Apple mentioned this

>tidbit: > It is interesting to note that the cause of Ebby's death was

>suicide.

>> The only woman who contributed a personal recovery story to the Big

>> Book also died of suicide. Bill as we know suffered from long-term

>deep

>> Does anyone know how Dr. Bob died?

>>

>> Amazing stuff isn't it?

>>

> She was the first female AA they say. Jan

> eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

>

[Guest guest]

" pittjan " wrote:

> Would that be Marty Mann? She was the first female AA they say.

Nope. Theyve done the same thing here as they did with Bob -

choose the first one who actually survived to depict as the first ever.

IIRC the first woman got her story in the BB, but then disappeared ans

was found a few years later in the morgue.

P.

[Guest guest]

" pittjan " wrote:

> Would that be Marty Mann? She was the first female AA they say.

Nope. Theyve done the same thing here as they did with Bob -

choose the first one who actually survived to depict as the first ever.

IIRC the first woman got her story in the BB, but then disappeared ans

was found a few years later in the morgue.

P.

[Guest guest]

mike may wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10850

> Hi Jan,

> As far as I can remember, Dr. Bob died of old age. I will have to

look

> to confirm that one though. Bill died from emphasema, he was a

> cronic smoker. One of the reasons AA was started was because the

Oxford

> Group believed that Alkies couldn't quit drinking if they still

smoked.

Woa? Really? Can you cite evidence? ~I can well believe it, and

hilarious it is too. Modern Xtians are often tough on smokers, so it

adds up - the puritanical Groupers were probably the same. Did they

disapprove of coffee too perchance?

> Also if you consider that AA teaches that you are not really sober if

you

> use drugs, then Bill was not sober for the last ten years of

his

> sobriety, as he used LSD many times to improve his concious contact

with

> his higher power. Some higher power eh.

thought that LSD could help ppl get the spiritual experience of

God he thought necessary for recovery. I think this shows his

incredible naivety, and also the extent of his critical ability to

assess his own belladonna experience. I think there was something

genuine about that experience, but it was probably much drug-enhanced.

P.

[Guest guest]

ben bradley wrote:

>

> A few people, even in 12-step programs, consider nicotine and/or

caffeine

> to be drugs, and believe you're really not 'clean' until you quit

these also.

Well they are, arent they? nicotine is a poison made by a plant to make

it less edible. Caffeine is similar to amphetamine.

The truth is that drugs arent necessarily the evil they are made out to

be - it depends on how their use is socially constructed, and this

construction has pretty well nothing to do with how dangerous the drugs

actually are. In the US, opiates and alcohol have traded places;

formerly heroin was freely available and alcohol was prohibited.

The following are death rates per day in the UK for various addictive

habits; the US rate will be abt 5 x these:

Tobacco: 300

Anorexia: 200

Alcohol: 100

Other Drugs: 7

You will note that Anorexia is pretty well ignored by most groupers,

who are usually derisive about eating disorders. Some will grudgingly

say " Ok, Eating Disorders may be tough but ppl actually DIE from

alcohol [or drugs] " unaware of the fact that Anorexia is the most

commonly fatal psychological disorder. If the other eating disorders

are added in, the figure will be in even higher.

P.

[Guest guest]

" dave " wrote:

>

> on a note on smoking in AA, someone posted a study on some list wish

> should that people who were followed in AA attendance over the years

> something like 60% died from smoking related illness. of course this

> was in one study, and it probably was made up of people from a

previous

> generation which generally smoked more any ways. i found it ironic

that

> they were so worried about dying from drinking, they ignored they were

> killing themselves with the cigs.

I've been told 80% by a rehab runner.

P.

[Guest guest]

I heard there's a bar which is nearby to one of the big rehabs (can't

remember which one), but they'll give you a free drink if you trade in

your chip or token. Apparently, they have all the chips & tokens

displayed prominently.

Apple

mike may wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10905

> Actually there are a few good books out there that tell about the

lies in

> AA. For years they hid the fact that the first 6 steps were written

by the

> Oxford group, also that they bought anything from the oxford group

into the

> AA program, because it might be harmful for the betterment of AA. On

other

> thing I noticed was that Bill W. used Ebby, who could never get hold

of the

> program As his Sponcer. If he showed at his house, bill usually gave

him

> money to go drink with, My kind of sponcer, give him a few buck and

send

> him on his way, that way you don't have to deal with your sponcers

> bullshit. I think all AA's should go to the bar now and pick a

sponcer.

> Mike M

[Guest guest]

" pete watts " wrote:

> The following are death rates per day in the UK for various addictive

> habits; the US rate will be abt 5 x these:

>

> Tobacco: 300

> Anorexia: 200

> Alcohol: 100

> Other Drugs: 7

>

> You will note that Anorexia is pretty well ignored by most groupers,

> who are usually derisive about eating disorders. Some will grudgingly

> say " Ok, Eating Disorders may be tough but ppl actually DIE from

> alcohol [or drugs] " unaware of the fact that Anorexia is the most

> commonly fatal psychological disorder. If the other eating disorders

> are added in, the figure will be in even higher.

>

> P.

>

Having experienced English food, I'm surprised that the death toll from

anorexia is not even higher. Simpy's makes me wick!

[Guest guest]

appledt-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10918

> I heard there's a bar which is nearby to one of the big rehabs (can't

> remember which one), but they'll give you a free drink if you trade in

> your chip or token. Apparently, they have all the chips & tokens

> displayed prominently.

> Apple

<laughs> The pub I hang out in gave me 4 free pints of beer for my

gold-plated 4-year " chip " . It now resides in the bottom of the tip jar

on the bar; when new people start working there they always want to

know what the hell it is.

[Guest guest]

Actually there are a few good books out there that tell about the lies in

AA. For years they hid the fact that the first 6 steps were written by the

Oxford group, also that they bought anything from the oxford group into the

AA program, because it might be harmful for the betterment of AA. On other

thing I noticed was that Bill W. used Ebby, who could never get hold of the

program As his Sponcer. If he showed at his house, bill usually gave him

money to go drink with, My kind of sponcer, give him a few buck and send

him on his way, that way you don't have to deal with your sponcers

bullshit. I think all AA's should go to the bar now and pick a sponcer.

Mike M

At 10:45 AM 12/31/1999 -0800, you wrote:

>mike may wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10850

>> Hi Jan,

>> As far as I can remember, Dr. Bob died of old age. I will have to

>look

>> to confirm that one though. Bill died from emphasema, he was a

>> cronic smoker. One of the reasons AA was started was because the

>Oxford

>> Group believed that Alkies couldn't quit drinking if they still

>smoked.

>

>Woa? Really? Can you cite evidence? ~I can well believe it, and

>hilarious it is too. Modern Xtians are often tough on smokers, so it

>adds up - the puritanical Groupers were probably the same. Did they

>disapprove of coffee too perchance?

>

>> Also if you consider that AA teaches that you are not really sober if

>you

>> use drugs, then Bill was not sober for the last ten years of

>his

>> sobriety, as he used LSD many times to improve his concious contact

>with

>> his higher power. Some higher power eh.

>

> thought that LSD could help ppl get the spiritual experience of

>God he thought necessary for recovery. I think this shows his

>incredible naivety, and also the extent of his critical ability to

>assess his own belladonna experience. I think there was something

>genuine about that experience, but it was probably much drug-enhanced.

>

>P.

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

They also came out with a study that said 1/3 of the population smokes

because they enjoy it, and that 2/3 of the population smoke to cope with

the child abuse they recieved growing up. Good thing alcohol isn't used to

cope with those things eh. I mean it cant be, because AA's never talk about

that, so it must be true.

Mike M

At 10:59 AM 12/31/1999 -0800, you wrote:

> " dave " wrote:

>

>>

>> on a note on smoking in AA, someone posted a study on some list wish

>> should that people who were followed in AA attendance over the years

>> something like 60% died from smoking related illness. of course this

>> was in one study, and it probably was made up of people from a

>previous

>> generation which generally smoked more any ways. i found it ironic

>that

>> they were so worried about dying from drinking, they ignored they were

>> killing themselves with the cigs.

>

>I've been told 80% by a rehab runner.

>

>P.

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Sneezing, wheezing, trouble breathing? If you have allergies or asthma, or

>want to breathe happier and healthier, we can help. Visit gazoontite.com

>for the products, information and services you need to breathe easier.

>http://click./1/396/1/_/4324/_/946666772

>

>-- Talk to your group with your own voice!

>-- /VoiceChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

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>