Re: Sober without AA?

[Guest guest]

Pete Watts wrote:

>A few years back I think I saw something from Chaz Bufe abt a study

>that showed that ppl 20+ yrs sober in AA were more likely to drink

>again than those out, but I cant remember details - if you read this

>Chaz, perhaps you remember?

Hi Pete,

What you're thinking of is the National Longitudinal Alcoholism

Epidemiological Survey, funded by the NIAAA and conducted

by the Census Bureau. Its results were published here:

Dawson, D. A. (1996). Correlates of past-year status among treated and

untreated

persons with former alcohol dependence: United States, 1992. Alcoholism:

Clinical and Experimental Research, 20, 771–779.

The conclusion that you refer to is that at 20 or more years since onset

of dependence (as defined by DSM), 80% of surviving, treated

" alcoholics "

were either abstinent or drinking nonabusively, while 90% of untreated

" alcoholics " were either abstinent or drinking nonabusively. In other

words,

twice as many treated as untreated formerly alcohol-dependent persons

were still drinking abusively 20 or more years after the onset of

dependence.

Of course, in the NLAES " treatment " included AA attendance, which

somewhat muddies the waters regarding the effectiveness of formal

treatment. But in any event this study at least suggest that treatment

(at least as has been applied in the U.S. for the last few decades) is

outright harmful.

NLAES is one of the most important studies out there for a number of

reasons. Stanton Peele and I discuss it at length in our upcoming book,

" Resisting 12-Step Coercion, " which should be in the bookstores by this

time next month.

Best regards,

Chaz

[Guest guest]

Hi Chaz;

Good to hear from you as always.

At one time I read that people with 5 years or more of abstinence,

who returned to addictive abusive drinking were VERY unlikely to

quit again and make it stick.

This now concerns me as after 9 years I drank at an extreme

rate(Two half gallons of whiskey would make it to the third day), for

a bit over a month Nov 14 to Dec 17, 99. I went into the hospital

and got medical detox. I couldn't believe with all my health

problems plus that kind of drinking for a month, they had me feeling

good as new in two days. I haven't drank, but it has been a tough

grind. My wife was on vacation, she jerked all our money out of the

bank and moved out and is divorcing me. Christmas Eve I got a

letter from my doctor saying the CTscan revealed lung cancer, I've

lost the use of my right hand and have broken cervical vertabrae,

cause unknown(I was sober) Went to sleep and when I woke up

the neck and hand wouldn't work. Function is returning to the hand

and I'm in PT for the neck. Preliminaries on the needle biopsy of

my lung are negative for any type malignancy and that was today

or actually yesterday.

This may sound strange, but the hardest to take of all was my 10

yr old Tomcat Mr Lynx had a siezure and died in the middle of all

this. Am I moaning and crying? Damn straight, but a little at a

time I'm winning. I have a bunch of account closed checks I'll be

prosecuted on and my wife is laughing. She'll be laughing from the

other side of her mouth when I put in evidence her sworn statement

to the bank VP that there were NO outstanding checks when she

closed the account. Let her ass sweat a bit. The Statement is

unequivocal and has no wiggle room. The bank VP will also testify

that I was not notified at my wifes request. What the hell it only

carries ten years and women always get probation anyway.

Bitter? Me? Bet yer ass pal.

Good to hear from you though

[Guest guest]

D. Hall wrote:

>At one time I read that people with 5 years or more of abstinence,

>who returned to addictive abusive drinking were VERY unlikely to

>quit again and make it stick.

I can't think of such a study, and that conclusion really doesn't sound

right. In general, the most important things in regard to drinking

behavior

are motivation and beliefs. In other words, if a person wants to

abstain--

or drink moderately--and believes that they can, they generally will

succeed, never mind prior history.

At the same time, long exposure to AA is sometimes--but not always--

an indication that attempts at moderate drinking might lead to trouble.

This has to do with the very destructive messages one gets at almost

every AA meeting: " one drink, one drunk, " " powerlessness " ,

and AA or " jails, institutions, or death. " Generally, the longer one has

been exposed to such crap, the harder it is to be free of it. Even if

one

consciously rejects it, those destructive whispers in the back of one's

mind will be there for a long time undermining self-confidence. For

that reason, folks who have been in AA for a while often find it easier

to abstain altogether than to moderate after leaving, and those who do

attempt to drink moderately are well advised to use a structured program

such as Moderation Management or DrinkWise.

In any event, don't worry too much about a relapse. If you want to

abstain,

you will--you already know how to do it.

>This now concerns me as after 9 years I drank at an extreme

>rate(Two half gallons of whiskey would make it to the third day), for

>a bit over a month Nov 14 to Dec 17, 99. I went into the hospital

>and got medical detox. I couldn't believe with all my health

>problems plus that kind of drinking for a month, they had me feeling

>good as new in two days. I haven't drank, but it has been a tough

>grind. My wife was on vacation, she jerked all our money out of the

>bank and moved out and is divorcing me. Christmas Eve I got a

>letter from my doctor saying the CTscan revealed lung cancer, I've

>lost the use of my right hand and have broken cervical vertabrae,

>cause unknown(I was sober) Went to sleep and when I woke up

>the neck and hand wouldn't work. Function is returning to the hand

>and I'm in PT for the neck. Preliminaries on the needle biopsy of

>my lung are negative for any type malignancy and that was today

>or actually yesterday.

>This may sound strange, but the hardest to take of all was my 10

>yr old Tomcat Mr Lynx had a siezure and died in the middle of all

>this.

Sorry to hear of all your recent misfortunes. I understand how you

feel about losing your cat. I've had mine, " Spot Bob, " for 13 years,

and I'd be very unhappy if anything bad happened to him. He almost

died four years ago (had to have his cancerous spleen removed),

and I felt as worried as if he'd been a family member. I know it

sounds ridiculous, but it's very easy to get attached to animals.

>Am I moaning and crying? Damn straight, but a little at a

>time I'm winning. I have a bunch of account closed checks I'll be

>prosecuted on and my wife is laughing. She'll be laughing from the

>other side of her mouth when I put in evidence her sworn statement

>to the bank VP that there were NO outstanding checks when she

>closed the account. Let her ass sweat a bit. The Statement is

>unequivocal and has no wiggle room. The bank VP will also testify

>that I was not notified at my wifes request. What the hell it only

>carries ten years and women always get probation anyway.

>Bitter? Me? Bet yer ass pal.

I understand this. As someone once noted, " Man cannot live by

bread alone -- revenge is also necessary. "

>Good to hear from you though

Likewise. Keep your chin up; things will probably get better.

Chaz

[Guest guest]

Hi Chaz;

Things already have gotten better. The biopsy of the lung revealed

no cancer, my right hand is improving and will recover, a nearly full

recovery is expected on my neck where I am taking physical

therapy.

I have a call in to The University of Iowa, where I was originally

treated for The Spinal TB. They have all the old records, scans and

x-rays to compare with the new, so that I think is my best shot.

I'm the only living person who was paralyzed by spinal TB and

recovered to walk again, how much luckier can a man get? This

type of thing has caused me one problem at times. A feeling of

invincibility when it comes to serious medical conditions. One of

the reasons my wife gave for leaving. She drove me to the biopsy

and on the way I told her " I don't think I have cancer, but if I do, I'll

beat it! " She went ballistic and asked me how many people I knew

that had beat lung cancer and I told her ME if I have it! Our

conversations tend to go like that these days.

If I can make a deal to skate by just paying those checks and fees

as I've been trying to do, I won't take the revenge. I can talk a hell

of a game about hurting people, but when push comes to shove, it

just ain't in me. I fully realize all I'd be doing would be making her

answer for her conduct, but even that doesn't play well in my heart

of hearts. I've covered for her before in these type situations and

one more won't kill me. Perhaps I'm being a coward about it all,

passing the job to the next guy, but that's the most likely way it

will come down.

However it comes down, I won't drink at it, I'll make the decision

and live with it right or wrong like most folks do.

Thanks Chaz

[Guest guest]

Ten years ago I had lung cancer and was told I had a 15% chance of

living two more years. I'm still here.

None of us is a statistic. I'm not and you're not. After the stuff

you've gone through before, you know you are damn tough. What were the

odds of your stopping for the nine years that you did?

I know what you mean about Mr. Lynx. My cat ( " Little Bit " )

died in August and it was very hard to take. My sympathies for the

loss of your cat and your wife.

" gary d hall " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11854

> Hi Chaz;

>

> Good to hear from you as always.

>

> At one time I read that people with 5 years or more of abstinence,

> who returned to addictive abusive drinking were VERY unlikely to

> quit again and make it stick.

>

> This now concerns me as after 9 years I drank at an extreme

> rate(Two half gallons of whiskey would make it to the third day),

for

> a bit over a month Nov 14 to Dec 17, 99. I went into the hospital

> and got medical detox. I couldn't believe with all my health

> problems plus that kind of drinking for a month, they had me feeling

> good as new in two days. I haven't drank, but it has been a tough

> grind. My wife was on vacation, she jerked all our money out of the

> bank and moved out and is divorcing me. Christmas Eve I got a

> letter from my doctor saying the CTscan revealed lung cancer, I've

> lost the use of my right hand and have broken cervical vertabrae,

> cause unknown(I was sober) Went to sleep and when I woke up

> the neck and hand wouldn't work. Function is returning to the hand

> and I'm in PT for the neck. Preliminaries on the needle biopsy of

> my lung are negative for any type malignancy and that was today

> or actually yesterday.

>

> This may sound strange, but the hardest to take of all was my 10

> yr old Tomcat Mr Lynx had a siezure and died in the middle of all

> this. Am I moaning and crying? Damn straight, but a little at a

> time I'm winning. I have a bunch of account closed checks I'll be

> prosecuted on and my wife is laughing. She'll be laughing from the

> other side of her mouth when I put in evidence her sworn statement

> to the bank VP that there were NO outstanding checks when she

> closed the account. Let her ass sweat a bit. The Statement is

> unequivocal and has no wiggle room. The bank VP will also testify

> that I was not notified at my wifes request. What the hell it only

> carries ten years and women always get probation anyway.

>

> Bitter? Me? Bet yer ass pal.

>

> Good to hear from you though

>

>