Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 It is my understanding that a lot of people have made them successfully with far less salt. Salt is really an acquired taste - personally I think a lot of the NT recipes could use a dash more. -Lana " There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:53 PM, thecupandcrumb <thecupandcrumb@...>wrote: > I am starting to ferment some veggies. I have the nourishing traditions > book, but I find that the recipes call for too much salt!! Yuck. Is > that much salt necessary for fermenting? > > I don't taste the veggie, all I taste is salt. Is it a preservative in > the recipe? I thought that whey was the preservative? If I cut the > amount of salt in half will it adversly affect the recipe? > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 Hi, I'm not sure about the veggies but for the beet kvass recipe I cut the salt in half and double the fermentation time - a much better tasting drink. For sauerkraut I don't really measure the salt and this, also, I leave out to ferment longer. I actually like Sandor Katz' " Wild Fermentation " more for fermenting veggies. He has a 5 lb cabbage to 3 tbsp salt ratio - as well as a longer ferment time. Also, he doesn't use whey. Hope this helps. Lynda --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 Salt is used to help protect the ferment from pathogens in the beginning. Too much salt will kill the probiotic bacteria (primarily Lactobacillus). Not enough salt and one runs a greater risk of spoilage. Lactobacillus and other good microbes can withstand some salt where other harmful microbes can't. One can use other things like whey or some of the previous ferment as a starter. Also an airlock helps. We are still doing a wild ferment because we rely on what is in our environment and in the food we choose to ferment. The process of fermenting is actually a decomposition (decay/rotting) that we find favorable. It is the organic acids (lactic acid and acetic acid) that serve as the preservative. Ed Kasper, LAc California Acupuncturist & Medicinal Herbalist www.HappyHerbalist.com > > I am starting to ferment some veggies. I have the nourishing traditions > book, but I find that the recipes call for too much salt!! Yuck. Is > that much salt necessary for fermenting? > > I don't taste the veggie, all I taste is salt. Is it a preservative in > the recipe? I thought that whey was the preservative? If I cut the > amount of salt in half will it adversly affect the recipe? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 --- thecupandcrumb wrote > > I am starting to ferment some veggies. I have the nourishing traditions book, but I find that the recipes call for too much salt!! Yuck. Is that much salt necessary for fermenting? I'm relatively new to fermenting myself, but the lactofermentation overview in NT explains that (1) salt is required to keep the veg from spoiling during the period between bottling and the start of fermentation and (2) the amount of salt can be reduced or eliminated [only] when whey is used. When whey is used, fermentation will start more quickly than without; when whey is not used, more salt is necessary to ensure that the food doesn't spoil before fermentation starts. If you're sensitive to salt, definitely use whey and the lower amount of salt suggested in the recipe (or experiment with even less). FWIW, I've found 1 T of coarse Celtic sea salt (+whey) per quart of cabbage just perfect for sauerkraut -- even not salty enough! And because the fermented veg is a condiment rather than a dish in itself, it can complement a food that is undersalted. Note that substituting a fine-grained sea salt (for coarse Celtic sea salt) likely will make the veg taste more salty. Also, colder temps mean that fermentation will be slower to start ... so personally, I'd not be inclined to reduce salt concentrations under such conditions. HTH, Pam, enjoying the opportunity to make her first post to the list! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 people on the Discussing NT group have found that if you leave the ferment in the fridge for a month or longer, the saltiness diminishes and the taste improves. --- In , " thecupandcrumb " <thecupandcrumb@...> wrote: > > I am starting to ferment some veggies. I have the nourishing traditions > book, but I find that the recipes call for too much salt!! Yuck. Is > that much salt necessary for fermenting? > > I don't taste the veggie, all I taste is salt. Is it a preservative in > the recipe? I thought that whey was the preservative? If I cut the > amount of salt in half will it adversly affect the recipe? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 > people on the Discussing NT group have found that if you leave the ferment in the fridge for > a month or longer, the saltiness diminishes and the taste improves. Yes, I once made a batch of kraut to which I added a lot of salt, and when I tasted it I'd thought I'd ruined it because it was so salty. Then I let it ferment, and a month or two later it tasted just right. Perhaps when you first add salt to the cabbage, it stays mainly in the liquid. During fermentation, the salt moves into the cabbage too, balancing out the concentration and making it taste less salty. Having enough salt is important! My most recent batch of sauerkraut did not get enough salt and it smelled rather rotten after a month and was too soft (but still edible, sort of). I added a lot more salt and put it in the fridge. Hopefully this will encourage the lactobacilli and the flavor will improve. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 Thanks for your replies. I think I am going to try using slightly less salt and increase the ferment time and see how that works. Yeah, the beet kvass really caught me off guard with the amount of salt in it. I guess, I was expecting a yummy fermented drink and it was like drinking salt water. I spit it out! I really want this to work and I know my kids will have nothing to do with it if it tastes yucky to me. > > I am starting to ferment some veggies. I have the nourishing traditions > book, but I find that the recipes call for too much salt!! Yuck. Is > that much salt necessary for fermenting? > > I don't taste the veggie, all I taste is salt. Is it a preservative in > the recipe? I thought that whey was the preservative? If I cut the > amount of salt in half will it adversly affect the recipe? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 Salt is dehydrating. Removes water from tissues. Part of its preservative feature, other preservative function is lowers the pH. These make it difficult for pathogens to take hold. As the ferment progresses (ages) it is transformed. Aging usually mellows out the harshness /sharpness of ferments. Wine, whiskey, cheese, vinegar are a few examples. Salt and organic acids are preservative - not sterilization. Fermentation does continue (even in the fridge). Chemicals (like sulphites) and treatment methods like pasteurization kill (sterilize) and stop active fermentation. These methods (sterilization) will give you a Kodak Moment / taste, quality etc. Preservatives life goes on. Happy Holidays To your health, Ed Kasper, LAc www.HappyHerbalist.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 I thought that cheese gets sharper as it ages, not more mellow. comments? > > Salt is dehydrating. Removes water from tissues. Part of its preservative > feature, other preservative function is lowers the pH. These make it > difficult for pathogens to take hold. As the ferment progresses (ages) it > is transformed. Aging usually mellows out the harshness /sharpness of > ferments. Wine, whiskey, cheese, vinegar are a few examples. Salt and > organic acids are preservative - not sterilization. Fermentation does > continue (even in the fridge). > > > > Chemicals (like sulphites) and treatment methods like pasteurization kill > (sterilize) and stop active fermentation. These methods (sterilization) > will give you a Kodak Moment / taste, quality etc. Preservatives life goes > on. > > > > Happy Holidays > > To your health, > > > > Ed Kasper, LAc > > www.HappyHerbalist.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 if the fermentation is slower to start in colder temps, wouldn't you want to add more salt instead of less since the salt is keeping the veg from spoiling until the start of fermentation? > > --- thecupandcrumb wrote > > > > I am starting to ferment some veggies. I have the nourishing > traditions book, but I find that the recipes call for too much salt!! > Yuck. Is that much salt necessary for fermenting? > > I'm relatively new to fermenting myself, but the lactofermentation > overview in NT explains that (1) salt is required to keep the veg from > spoiling during the period between bottling and the start of > fermentation and (2) the amount of salt can be reduced or eliminated > [only] when whey is used. When whey is used, fermentation will start > more quickly than without; when whey is not used, more salt is > necessary to ensure that the food doesn't spoil before fermentation > starts. If you're sensitive to salt, definitely use whey and the lower > amount of salt suggested in the recipe (or experiment with even less). > > FWIW, I've found 1 T of coarse Celtic sea salt (+whey) per quart of > cabbage just perfect for sauerkraut -- even not salty enough! And > because the fermented veg is a condiment rather than a dish in itself, > it can complement a food that is undersalted. > > Note that substituting a fine-grained sea salt (for coarse Celtic sea > salt) likely will make the veg taste more salty. Also, colder temps > mean that fermentation will be slower to start ... so personally, I'd > not be inclined to reduce salt concentrations under such conditions. > > HTH, > Pam, enjoying the opportunity to make her first post to the list! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 --- In , " carolyn_graff " <zgraff@...> wrote: > > if the fermentation is slower to start in colder temps, wouldn't you want to add more salt > instead of less since the salt is keeping the veg from spoiling until the start of > fermentation? > I would think that would be unnecessary. Most foods either have preservatives (like salt) added to keep them from spoiling, or need to be refrigerated to prevent spoilage, but not both. I've never added salt to my kraut-type ferments, and there's never been a problem with spoilage. I generally always ferment at room temperature. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 As the cheese ages, liquid evaporates, the cheese shrinks and hardens, and so the flavor is concentrated. As a ferment ages, the liquid portion only evaporates slightly if at all, and osmosis theoretically balances the salt concentration in the liquid and the cells of the foodstuff. So the cheese is saltier, and the ferment liquid less so on first examination by the tongue. Also, folks should know that many fermented and salted / dry aged products are traditionally rinsed before using. I can't eat kalamatas with out rinsing. . . .ditto many of the dried fishes and crustaceans from the Asian market. Kraut can be rinsed and soaked or gently warmed in white wine (afaik this is Bavarian kraut-nique). Desh ____________________________________________________________ Visa, MasterCard, AMEX & Discover. Compare Offers & Apply Online. Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2Oq3lyHByh6ydeWEwxzOyRI8ZrwmKP\ 31TokxLQKMqE2xCpY/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I wrote > > Also, colder temps mean that fermentation will be slower to start .... so personally, I'd not be inclined to reduce salt concentrations under such conditions. and carolyn_graff asked > if the fermentation is slower to start in colder temps, wouldn't you want to add more salt instead of less since the salt is keeping the veg from spoiling until the start of fermentation? Exactly my point -- that I wouldn't want to experiment with reducing salt at a time of year when risk of spoilage is higher. As a newbie to fermentation, I'm glad to hear that others have had good luck with room-temperature fermentation in cold temps. I'm in NH in a cold (65-ish degrees) house, but I put the kraut jars next to the radiator in the kitchen for a few days; how about (and others)? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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