Re: Preparing grains

[Guest guest]

,

> I'm trying to expose my family, friends and coworkers to a more

> traditional, whole foods diet. I developed 10 guidelines for healthy

> eating (similar to previous posts before) and I'm walking people

> through adopting one guideline each week. The first week was

> eliminating sugars from the diet. Next week will be eliminating

> improperly prepared flour. I was under the impression that phytic acid

> was bad and should be neutralized at all costs, thus I've been soaking

> and fermenting all of my grains. However, when I started to do more

> research over the last week, I've found many sources that say phytic

> acid can actually be helpful and grains were not necessarily soaked

> back in the day. I want to give people accurate information, and make

> the transition to a new and healthier lifestyle as easy as possible.

>

> What are people's thoughts on soaking grains (especially for bread

> baking)? Can phytic acid actually be helpful for preventing

> inflammation and colon cancer? And I've been religiously soaking my

> oatmeal, only to just read that oats contain low levels of phytates

> and don't need to be soaked...

Personally, I think the soaking advice is misguided. Phytic acid is

not the only issue with grains, and a 24 hour soak does not solve all

the problems of lectins, protease inhibitors, gluten, etc. The Swiss

of the Loetschental Valley, a group studied by Price in NAPD,

fermented their bread for **two weeks**. Other groups, IIRC, even

those who ate oats, fermented/soaked their grains for more than 24

hours as well. Some traditional groups would polish their rice for

example, or like the Thai only eat polished rice which a long ago WAPF

article actually said was a good thing. If Price's observations have

any meaning, and you choose to include grain in your diet, then the

only way to do so, IMO, is to eat grain that has been long fermented

or otherwise treated to make it a good food rather than a problematic

food. IMO, 24 hour soaking does not fit the bill..

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)

[Guest guest]

I have also considered that historically, folks would have been colonized

with the scoby that fermented their local grains, both from growing up in

a cooking area full of that scoby, to childish hands in the grains as

they soak and ferment (and tasting any souring doughs). . . .

additionally, how often would you heat leftovers to killing temperature

if you had no conception of germ theory? Rarely. So cooked porridges

would sit out, and be eaten without killing their scoby. It seems like a

hugely different gut terrain to me, in order to eat grains healthily.

Now, if someone could tell me how to do no grains on a low income, with a

carb-addicted 5 year old in the house. . . .

Desh

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[Guest guest]

> Now, if someone could tell me how to do

> no grains on a low income, with a

> carb-addicted 5 year old in the house. . . .

no grains: root vegetables as staples, peas, corn, veggie starch

carb-addicted 5 year old: " Little Sugar Addicts " by DesMaisons

if I were the 5 year old and you were my mom, and I knew what I know

now, I would beg and plead for you to provide food and education on how

to eat, and not be a slave to addictive destructive food all my life.

My own mom could not do this, she didn't know.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Desh,

> I have also considered that historically, folks would have been colonized

> with the scoby that fermented their local grains, both from growing up in

> a cooking area full of that scoby, to childish hands in the grains as

> they soak and ferment (and tasting any souring doughs). . . .

> additionally, how often would you heat leftovers to killing temperature

> if you had no conception of germ theory? Rarely. So cooked porridges

> would sit out, and be eaten without killing their scoby. It seems like a

> hugely different gut terrain to me, in order to eat grains healthily.

It seems to me if you remove the offending substances, by whatever

process, then it wouldn't much matter whether we have adapted to the

particular food in question. The substance we would need to adapt to

is no longer there or in a different form that we can handle. I'm not

denying the above, only saying that we can bypass that process. It

seems to me that is essentially what we do in cooking, transform a

food (like a root vegetable) that would otherwise be in a form that is

toxic to us, into something good and nourishing for us.

That is why I'm leery of concepts like evolutionary appropriate diets.

They do not take into account human ingenuity and technology, and our

ability to take things found in nature and " appropriate " them for our

benefit.

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)

[Guest guest]

Connie,

>> Now, if someone could tell me how to do

>> no grains on a low income, with a

>> carb-addicted 5 year old in the house. . . .

>

> no grains: root vegetables as staples, peas, corn, veggie starch

> carb-addicted 5 year old: " Little Sugar Addicts " by DesMaisons

Agreed, root vegetables as a staple: yams, sweet potatoes, peeled

white potatoes, cassava (tapioca starch), I wouldn't eat any corn

without nixtamalizing it. Depending on what is going on with your 5

year old certain fruits might be okay, especially the tropical ones

(pineapple, watermelon, mango, guava - I haven't decided yet if

bananas are worthwhile since you can't buy them tree-ripened), pumpkin

might be good also.

Desh, you seem like a very creative cook. I'm sure you could do a lot

with the above. Diets like this seem to be high in iodine, so

hopefully your 5 year old likes fish and/or shellfish.

Anyway, that is how I eat during the parts of the year when I am not

eating animal foods (with the addition of some other foods and oils

like avocado, fermented veggies/soy, homemade chocolate,

mac/palm/coconut oils, and all things coconut). I will also

occasionally eat some of the sprouted manna bread, polished rice, and

hopefully I will be able to mail order some two-four week fermented

bread. Of course those last three items are grains

> if I were the 5 year old and you were my mom, and I knew what I know

> now, I would beg and plead for you to provide food and education on how

> to eat, and not be a slave to addictive destructive food all my life.

> My own mom could not do this, she didn't know.

Very well said.

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)

[Guest guest]

so why the polished white rice? do you still soak it? what about brown

rice?

what do you all think about using sprouted grain flours? is this as

healthy as eating a sourdough product?

michael, is there any info i could look at on how to prepare breads

using a longer fermentation time?

thanks!

lisa

[Guest guest]

,

> Personally, I think the soaking advice is misguided. Phytic acid is

> not the only issue with grains, and a 24 hour soak does not solve all

> the problems of lectins, protease inhibitors, gluten, etc. The Swiss

> of the Loetschental Valley, a group studied by Price in NAPD,

> fermented their bread for **two weeks**.

Wasn't this two weeks of ageing after it was cooked? That seems

different than fermenting the dough for two weeks.

Price put a premium on freshly grinding grains, but he didn't seem to

think it very important to ferment them, since the biscuits he used in

his tooth decay reversal program for his patients were freshly ground

but not soaked.

Lectins are problematic if you aren't consuming or synthesizing enough

of the sugars that bind them, and perhaps if you are not producing

enough IgA antibodies to glom up the ones that have not been bound by

sugars. The lectins in wheat are bound by mannose and

N-acetyl-glucosamine. Someone once provided a reference that seemed

to suggest that if the grain was freshly ground, a short yeast

fermentation was effective in neutralizing the phytate, but my

recollection is we never obtained specific enough information to make

a conclusive judgment on this.

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> Price put a premium on freshly grinding grains, but he didn't seem to

> think it very important to ferment them, since the biscuits he used in

> his tooth decay reversal program for his patients were freshly ground

> but not soaked.

I think this may be one of the few things that Price didn't get

right. Many people seem to be able to tolerate quick-rise breads or

flat breads, but it also looks like many people do much better with

long fermentation of grains, especially for whole grains. And of

course, there are quite a few people who seem to have trouble with the

gluten grains, regardless of how they're prepared.

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Masterjohn

<chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> ,

>

>> Personally, I think the soaking advice is misguided. Phytic acid is

>> not the only issue with grains, and a 24 hour soak does not solve all

>> the problems of lectins, protease inhibitors, gluten, etc. The Swiss

>> of the Loetschental Valley, a group studied by Price in NAPD,

>> fermented their bread for **two weeks**.

>

> Wasn't this two weeks of ageing after it was cooked? That seems

> different than fermenting the dough for two weeks.

Right. I wasn't suggesting uncooked dough ferment for two weeks. The

bread from Bezian's which is fermented for at least two weeks and up

to four weeks in the refrigerator is done after baking. I might get

loose with my language sometimes but I think I usually say **long

fermented** and not long soaked.

> Price put a premium on freshly grinding grains, but he didn't seem to

> think it very important to ferment them, since the biscuits he used in

> his tooth decay reversal program for his patients were freshly ground

> but not soaked.

Funny I was just writing about that in another post. Personally I

think this is what in legal terms is known as " dicta " , i.e.

information that is just there with no real bearing on the issue. It

may not have adversely affected his treatment of tooth decay in young

children, but I will side with the Swiss in terms of how to eat grains

as a way of life.

> Lectins are problematic if you aren't consuming or synthesizing enough

> of the sugars that bind them, and perhaps if you are not producing

> enough IgA antibodies to glom up the ones that have not been bound by

> sugars. The lectins in wheat are bound by mannose and

> N-acetyl-glucosamine. Someone once provided a reference that seemed

> to suggest that if the grain was freshly ground, a short yeast

> fermentation was effective in neutralizing the phytate, but my

> recollection is we never obtained specific enough information to make

> a conclusive judgment on this.

Perhaps Mr. Saturated Fat on another list? :-)

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)

[Guest guest]

,

> I think this may be one of the few things that Price didn't get

> right. Many people seem to be able to tolerate quick-rise breads or

> flat breads, but it also looks like many people do much better with

> long fermentation of grains, especially for whole grains.

I would say that even for those who can " tolerate " quick rise breads,

they would do immensely better on long fermented grains, since damage

can be subtle and cumulative..

> And of

> course, there are quite a few people who seem to have trouble with the

> gluten grains, regardless of how they're prepared.

The anecdotal evidence seems to suggest otherwise when it comes to

long fermented breads. Such breads just are not accessible for most

folks but for those who try them with previous grain issues, they seem

to swear by them.

Of all the modern food groups in their natural state, grains, IMO, is

the group that needs to be approached with the most care (if at all),

and vegetables (the horror!) are a close second. I know, I know -

modern heresy to say the least.

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)

[Guest guest]

,

> so why the polished white rice? do you still soak it? what about brown

> rice?

Polished rice so as not to eat the bran. Bad stuff. Really.

Traditional groups didn't eat much soy unless it was fermented, they

didn't eat whole rice either. There is a reason for that.

> what do you all think about using sprouted grain flours? is this as

> healthy as eating a sourdough product?

Unless you start with very fresh grains I don't think any process can

rescue them, but I haven't seen any evidence that sprouted grains are

less healthy than a proper sourdough fermentation, BUT I haven't

studied this closely.

Here is how I see all of this, and I apologize in advance for my semi-rant.

Many folks read NAPD and kind of skip over the hard parts. So when

they read the chapter titled " Food is Fabricated Soil Fertility " its

like, " eh, I can't do anything about it " so they move on, although,

IMO, that is perhaps the most important chapter in the entire book,

and its not even written by Price, which shows how importance he gave

to the subject.

Or they read about the long fermented breads of the Swiss and move on

by that as well. " Two weeks? You gotta be kidding me! " Or notice that

Price didn't ferment his grains when working with some of his patients

so they conclude " it must not be a big deal. " Hmmm...so why would the

Swiss ferment for two weeks...cultural habit?

Or they read about the high carb diets of some of the African groups

and whisk the info away. Leaving aside that this belies the current

tendency to lump all carbs into the same category, silly statements

get made about how that couldn't be done today because most Americans

wouldn't use the same protein sources, like insects. Well excuse me,

why do we today have to utilize the exact same protein sources? After

all Price didn't teach that the key was to eat a specific food, only

to get the bodybuilding elements a specific food provides, which can

happen in many ways.

It wasn't that long ago that raw meat dishes were frowned upon by many

active WAPers. Who would want to do that? Turns out many of us do.

And somehow liver has been elevated to a god-like status, and all

those who oppose it will end up in nutritional hell.

Then you hear comments like avoid " stimulants " or alcohol.

Hmmm...maybe that is a good thing for some but you are not going to

draw such a sweeping conclusion for everybody by observing traditional

groups. Heck even animals have learned how to create their own

alcoholic brew, or drink milk as adults when the opportunities arise.

Okay, so all that to say that I think some things get said and

recommended because they are easy and fit with someone's personal

experience rather than the observations Price and others made. I think

the quick soak without the fermentation falls into that category.

> michael, is there any info i could look at on how to prepare breads

> using a longer fermentation time?

None that I am aware of, which kind of illustrates my point. The Bread

Dread link that Carolyn provided looks helpful, if you are willing to

buy the book for $38, which I would be if I was really into bread.

Plus he doesn't talk about fermenting bread long term but he does seem

to get it right in terms of getting a proper soak and the kind of

flour to use.

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)

[Guest guest]

I was just emailed from the WAPF group where I live in / Los

Gatos CA, about going in on an order of sprouted grain (spelt, rye or

wheat). I'm concerned about the starches turning into simple vegetable

sugars though. Isn't that hard on our insulin? Is it better not to

sprout first? Here's the web site of the company who makes the flour.

http://www.creatingheaven.net/eeproducts/eesfc/index.html

On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Masterjohn wrote:

,

> Personally, I think the soaking advice is misguided. Phytic acid is

> not the only issue with grains, and a 24 hour soak does not solve all

> the problems of lectins, protease inhibitors, gluten, etc. The Swiss

> of the Loetschental Valley, a group studied by Price in NAPD,

> fermented their bread for **two weeks**.

Wasn't this two weeks of ageing after it was cooked? That seems

different than fermenting the dough for two weeks.

Price put a premium on freshly grinding grains, but he didn't seem to

think it very important to ferment them, since the biscuits he used in

his tooth decay reversal program for his patients were freshly ground

but not soaked.

Lectins are problematic if you aren't consuming or synthesizing enough

of the sugars that bind them, and perhaps if you are not producing

enough IgA antibodies to glom up the ones that have not been bound by

sugars. The lectins in wheat are bound by mannose and

N-acetyl-glucosamine. Someone once provided a reference that seemed

to suggest that if the grain was freshly ground, a short yeast

fermentation was effective in neutralizing the phytate, but my

recollection is we never obtained specific enough information to make

a conclusive judgment on this.

Chris

Parashis

artpages@...

artpagesonline.com

[Guest guest]

Okay, now i have so many questions! I hope this comes through clearly.

i never know how to include comments from previous posters in my

posts, but here goes.

I thought i remember reading as someone here pointed out that Asian

cultures made the switch to white rice more recently and as a result

started having vitamin deficiencies?

Also, if bran is bad stuff isn't bran a part of all whole grains? do

we eliminate it through soaking or some other method?

>

> Polished rice so as not to eat the bran. Bad stuff. Really.

> Traditional groups didn't eat much soy unless it was fermented, they

> didn't eat whole rice either. There is a reason for that.

Okay, so fresh grains seem to be of utmost importance. I have been

grinding my grains but keep the flour in the fridge for up to a few

weeks, but it seems as though i should grind them fresh every time I

use them?

Has anyone looked into this issue of sprouted flours vs. sourdough breads?

> Unless you start with very fresh grains I don't think any process can

> rescue them, but I haven't seen any evidence that sprouted grains are

> less healthy than a proper sourdough fermentation, BUT I haven't

> studied this closely.

>

> Here is how I see all of this, and I apologize in advance for my

semi-rant.

>

> Many folks read NAPD and kind of skip over the hard parts. So when

> they read the chapter titled " Food is Fabricated Soil Fertility " its

> like, " eh, I can't do anything about it " so they move on, although,

> IMO, that is perhaps the most important chapter in the entire book,

> and its not even written by Price, which shows how importance he gave

> to the subject.

Is there anything we can do about the lack of minerals in the soil??

what do you all do?

>

> Or they read about the long fermented breads of the Swiss and move on

> by that as well. " Two weeks? You gotta be kidding me! " Or notice that

> Price didn't ferment his grains when working with some of his patients

> so they conclude " it must not be a big deal. " Hmmm...so why would the

> Swiss ferment for two weeks...cultural habit?

I just wanted to clarify about the long ferment time for sourdough

breads. so does one prepare the bread as usual and then let it sit in

the fridge continuing to ferment for several weeks?

> Then you hear comments like avoid " stimulants " or alcohol.

> Hmmm...maybe that is a good thing for some but you are not going to

> draw such a sweeping conclusion for everybody by observing traditional

> groups. Heck even animals have learned how to create their own

> alcoholic brew, or drink milk as adults when the opportunities arise.

okay, great! what kind of alcohol do you all consume?? what is the

best form? are there any conventional beers or wines that are acceptable?

Also, I do think that i am consuming too many grains. I generally have

a breakfast of eggs, meat, raw milk, and some sort of grain dish

either hot cereal, NT muffins, pancakes or waffles, or sourdough

bread. then i would say at least one other time during the day i eat

grain at another meal say a sprouted corn tortilla from food for life

or sourdough bread or rice. Do you all think this is too much?

So would potatoes fried in lard or butter be more acceptable than a

grain dish?

Do you all have any good recipes for sweet potatoes, potatoes or other

starchy vegetables? Grains just seem so much more appealing to me, but

maybe if i prepare the above vegetables in the right way, i would

enjoy them.

thanks!

lisa

>

[Guest guest]

I also forgot to ask whether buckwheat would be an acceptable food?

buckwheat is not a grain, right?

thanks,

lisa

>

> Do you all have any good recipes for sweet potatoes, potatoes or other

> starchy vegetables? Grains just seem so much more appealing to me, but

> maybe if i prepare the above vegetables in the right way, i would

> enjoy them.

>

[Guest guest]

Does anyone have this book???

thanks,

lisa

None that I am aware of, which kind of illustrates my point. The Bread

Dread link that Carolyn provided looks helpful, if you are willing to

buy the book for $38, which I would be if I was really into bread.

Plus he doesn't talk about fermenting bread long term but he does seem

to get it right in terms of getting a proper soak and the kind of

flour to use.

[Guest guest]

,

> I think this may be one of the few things that Price didn't get

> right. Many people seem to be able to tolerate quick-rise breads or

> flat breads, but it also looks like many people do much better with

> long fermentation of grains, especially for whole grains. And of

> course, there are quite a few people who seem to have trouble with the

> gluten grains, regardless of how they're prepared.

Other people claim the same about freshly grinding. Most people who

have talked about grains on this list haven't talked about freshly

grinding much. There are other groups of people who are not into

neutralizing phytate but are very into freshly grinding, and they say

similar things about doing much better with those grains.

But yes, Price may have overlooked the importance. My point was

mainly to give a counterpoint to the observation about the Swiss.

There is nothing clear about the importance of their 2-week ageing of

the bread, and they didn't seem to impress upon Price its importance.

It similarly isn't clear that Price is Right either.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> Right. I wasn't suggesting uncooked dough ferment for two weeks. The

> bread from Bezian's which is fermented for at least two weeks and up

> to four weeks in the refrigerator is done after baking. I might get

> loose with my language sometimes but I think I usually say **long

> fermented** and not long soaked.

I just wonder how much fermentation actually goes on when bread is

left out for two weeks. The bread is sterilized in the oven, and then

the crust basically seals the inside, partially anyway.

>> Price put a premium on freshly grinding grains, but he didn't seem to

>> think it very important to ferment them, since the biscuits he used in

>> his tooth decay reversal program for his patients were freshly ground

>> but not soaked.

> Funny I was just writing about that in another post. Personally I

> think this is what in legal terms is known as " dicta " , i.e.

> information that is just there with no real bearing on the issue. It

> may not have adversely affected his treatment of tooth decay in young

> children, but I will side with the Swiss in terms of how to eat grains

> as a way of life.

Price reported that some grains were fermented in some societies and

not others. For example, I'm pretty sure he wrote this about taro

root, without drawing any conclusions about the superiority of either

method. So, what does it mean if some of these groups fermented and

others didn't? Does the presence of fermentation automatically

achieve significance, despite contrary observations?

>> Lectins are problematic if you aren't consuming or synthesizing enough

>> of the sugars that bind them, and perhaps if you are not producing

>> enough IgA antibodies to glom up the ones that have not been bound by

>> sugars. The lectins in wheat are bound by mannose and

>> N-acetyl-glucosamine. Someone once provided a reference that seemed

>> to suggest that if the grain was freshly ground, a short yeast

>> fermentation was effective in neutralizing the phytate, but my

>> recollection is we never obtained specific enough information to make

>> a conclusive judgment on this.

>

> Perhaps Mr. Saturated Fat on another list? :-)

No, it wasn't him.

Chris

[Guest guest]

and

Something that has stuck in my brain was a talk that described the

traditional ways of cutting grain crops. In the old days they cut it

by hand and would tie it and let it sit in the fields to ferment. The

vision I get is a Van Gogh painting

Modern machines cut the crop, bale the straw and all the grain is

dumped in a bin... that long fermentation process in the field is

gone. This makes me want to grow some grain and cut it the old way

Sherry in Denver

> > Price put a premium on freshly grinding grains, but he didn't seem to

> > think it very important to ferment them, since the biscuits he used in

> > his tooth decay reversal program for his patients were freshly ground

> > but not soaked.

>

> I think this may be one of the few things that Price didn't get

> right. Many people seem to be able to tolerate quick-rise breads or

> flat breads, but it also looks like many people do much better with

> long fermentation of grains, especially for whole grains. And of

> course, there are quite a few people who seem to have trouble with the

> gluten grains, regardless of how they're prepared.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > so why the polished white rice? do you still soak it? what about brown

> > rice?

>

> Polished rice so as not to eat the bran. Bad stuff. Really.

> Traditional groups didn't eat much soy unless it was fermented, they

> didn't eat whole rice either. There is a reason for that.

>

Do you have any evidence that white rice is a traditional food? In my

studies of Chinese food/herb lore, the only difference that most

Chinese generally have talked about, historically, is that white rice

is more expensive, and is therefore associated with the wealthy. I

can point you to several resources in the traditional Chinese

food/herb category that talk about the value of brown versus white

rice. These specifically mention the social value of white versus

brown rice, and contrast it with the actual effect on health of each.

Brown rice also definitely has more b-vitamins and minerals. Where

are you getting your information? I suspect it's crap.

Mike

Mike

[Guest guest]

,

> Okay, now i have so many questions! I hope this comes through clearly.

> i never know how to include comments from previous posters in my

> posts, but here goes.

>

> I thought i remember reading as someone here pointed out that Asian

> cultures made the switch to white rice more recently and as a result

> started having vitamin deficiencies?

Hmmmm...I would like to see a reference for that. IIRC, WAPF published

an article on the Thai, who eat white rice regularly, that showed them

going out of their way to mill their rice.

Milling appears to go back to ancient times, even among groups we

would consider to be eating healthy traditional diets. Ah yes, here is

the quote I was looking for:

" In the early 1950's, a group of investigators from Cornell University

made a detailed survey of food habits in Bang Chan, a village in the

rice growing region twenty miles northeast of Bangkok.(2) They

determined that about four-fifths of calories came from rice in both

prosperous households and those less well off. A few of the families

still consumed home-milled rice, a method that removed most, but not

all, the bran and other nutrients. The vast majority, however, took

their rice to a local machine mill which returned the product to them

in the form of thoroughly refined white rice. Although the machine

mills are relatively new to Thailand, the practice of handmilling or

home pounding seems to date from ancient times, and was carried out

even though it involved a good deal of work. If brown rice was ever

used in Thai cooking, the memory of this custom is buried in

antiquity. The bran or polishings from handmilled rice were given to

chickens and other livestock, and never used for human food. In fact,

one peasant explained to investigators that the reason he continued to

hand mill, when machine milling was readily available, was that if he

took his rice to the local mill, the miller would keep the polishings

for himself, and rice bran made excellent chicken feed! "

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/thailand.html

> Also, if bran is bad stuff isn't bran a part of all whole grains? do

> we eliminate it through soaking or some other method?

It doesn't appear that traditional processing methods breaks the bran

down from rice, which may explain why the Thai give it to their

animals. A good sourdough bread fermentation should start with flour

where the bran has been removed.

I'm inclined to believe that fiber can in fact be a menace, especially

for those with digestive issues, and should be minimized.

http://www.fibermenace.com/

At any rate, fiber is at least overrated and certainly not a necessary

part of a healthy diet.

On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend having milled rice as a large

proportion of one's calories unless the diet was nutritionally

adequate in other ways. I eat milled rice on occasion, just like other

grains, and not as a regular part of my diet

>> Polished rice so as not to eat the bran. Bad stuff. Really.

>> Traditional groups didn't eat much soy unless it was fermented, they

>> didn't eat whole rice either. There is a reason for that.

>

> Okay, so fresh grains seem to be of utmost importance. I have been

> grinding my grains but keep the flour in the fridge for up to a few

> weeks, but it seems as though i should grind them fresh every time I

> use them?

You just won a brand new car! :-)

> Has anyone looked into this issue of sprouted flours vs. sourdough breads?

I actually like the idea of a sprouted bread that is subject to a long ferment.

>> Many folks read NAPD and kind of skip over the hard parts. So when

>> they read the chapter titled " Food is Fabricated Soil Fertility " its

>> like, " eh, I can't do anything about it " so they move on, although,

>> IMO, that is perhaps the most important chapter in the entire book,

>> and its not even written by Price, which shows how importance he gave

>> to the subject.

>

> Is there anything we can do about the lack of minerals in the soil??

> what do you all do?

You can try to influence things at the point of sale:

http://www.wolfrivernaturals.com/high-brix-farming-and-gardening.htm

or grow your own food: http://www.highbrixgardens.com/

>> Or they read about the long fermented breads of the Swiss and move on

>> by that as well. " Two weeks? You gotta be kidding me! " Or notice that

>> Price didn't ferment his grains when working with some of his patients

>> so they conclude " it must not be a big deal. " Hmmm...so why would the

>> Swiss ferment for two weeks...cultural habit?

>

> I just wanted to clarify about the long ferment time for sourdough

> breads. so does one prepare the bread as usual and then let it sit in

> the fridge continuing to ferment for several weeks?

That is one way, although Clive from the link Carolyn posted says that

just slows down the process rather than increasing the fermentation

activity, so that a few weeks is no different from a day or so

unrefrigerated. What might be helpful at this point is to get the info

directly from the guy everyone raves about and seems to be absolutely

nutty about fermentation:

http://www.yelp.com/biz/bezians-bakery-los-angeles

It might be good to encourage him to share his methods, even speak at

a conference. Here is one quote from the link:

" Bezian's sourdough bread is a slice of bread heaven. The best bread

eating experience of my life. Seriously, and I avoid carbs like the

plague.

" I saw the quirky dude from Bezian's at the Hollywood Farmer's Market.

I asked him, " can I tolerate your bread even though I have a wheat

allergy? " He replied, " do you want the short answer or the long

answer? " It was a sunny slow Sunday, I opted for the long answer.

The bread man knows his bread/nutrition. I can't even remember all of

the information he provided me -- total brain overload. It was quite

fascinating.

" Anyhow, I thought he was a quack. I didn't believe him. I thought he

was just trying to sell me his bread. I didn't want to be in bloated

hell. The woman behind me gave the bread dude a rave endorsement.

She practically had an orgasm describing how Bezian's bread

revolutionized her life. She too had a wheat allergy. I was sold.

The bread dude told me to avoid any loafs that contained cereals,

seeds, nuts, milk, beans, lentils and grass. I chose a mini kalamata

olive roll and pre-sliced loaf of sun dried tomato sourdough bread.

" Tart. Delicious. Joy. This bread is true unadulterated joy. I am

in love. I will only be eating Bezian's bread from now. My tummy had

no issues. Dare I say it, my stomach feels better. I've always had

tummy issues and this bread has changed my life. Revolutionary

Bread!!!!

" Do you understand how mind blowing this is???? I can eat mother

fuggin bread again (and I'm not talking about that cardboard gluten

free shit).

" Bezian's Bakery is bread heaven. Love the bread dude. He can't ever

stop baking!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or, I will weep daily. "

and another...

" If loving Bezian's micro-flora-enriched loaves is a crime, then

arrest me officer, for I am guilty, guilty, guilty.

" OK, so the guy who sells the stuff is a little nutty, and really,

really, reeeeeeeeally serious about his micro-flora (for fun family

reading, you can enjoy all his posters about how any bread other than

Bezian's will give you cancer and general extreme ugliness of the

digestive region).

" But damn, the man makes a kick-ass bread. I buy a loaf (usually the

kalamata olive kind, but sometimes I switch it up. I'm crazy like

that.) at the Pasadena or Hollywood Farmer's Market and make garlic

bread with it, and my dinner guests usually need a change of underwear

when they taste it.

" Whether or not it's a cure for the common cancer-causing bread, only

Mr. Bezian truly knows. Or not. But nonetheless, I'm definitely a

convert to this yeasty goodness. Mmmmm. "

>> Then you hear comments like avoid " stimulants " or alcohol.

>> Hmmm...maybe that is a good thing for some but you are not going to

>> draw such a sweeping conclusion for everybody by observing traditional

>> groups. Heck even animals have learned how to create their own

>> alcoholic brew, or drink milk as adults when the opportunities arise.

>

> okay, great! what kind of alcohol do you all consume?? what is the

> best form? are there any conventional beers or wines that are acceptable?

Wine, beer, scotch more infrequently, vodka on occasion. I don't know

if there is a best form. Probably depends on your particular health

profile. You probably need to be more careful with the distilled

spirits, as they do have a higher alcoholic content and I'm not

certain of their traditional use (although it turns out the Eskimos

were making " raw spirits " although I'm not sure how far back this

goes).

I would stick with the craft brewers for beer and boutique wineries,

although as far as beer goes your selection may be limited depending

on what part of the country you live in. So much will depend on your

own personal taste. Be forewarned, this is a world unto itself and

very fascinating.

> Also, I do think that i am consuming too many grains. I generally have

> a breakfast of eggs, meat, raw milk, and some sort of grain dish

> either hot cereal, NT muffins, pancakes or waffles, or sourdough

> bread. then i would say at least one other time during the day i eat

> grain at another meal say a sprouted corn tortilla from food for life

> or sourdough bread or rice. Do you all think this is too much?

Sounds like a really big breakfast to me :-)

Everyone is different but you might try eliminating grains for a few

weeks and see how you feel. And then if you want some slowly add back

only properly treated grains, and then just play it by ear.

> So would potatoes fried in lard or butter be more acceptable than a

> grain dish?

For me it would, but to each his own. And I would peel and soak the

potatoes before cooking.

> Do you all have any good recipes for sweet potatoes, potatoes or other

> starchy vegetables? Grains just seem so much more appealing to me, but

> maybe if i prepare the above vegetables in the right way, i would

> enjoy them.

I adore sweet potatoes and yams. You can make pies, side dishes, and

fries with them. With a big dollop of butter, some cinnamon and

nutmeg, they make a great addition to a meal.

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)

[Guest guest]

,

> I also forgot to ask whether buckwheat would be an acceptable food?

> buckwheat is not a grain, right?

>

> thanks,

Not it is not. But in my mind grains are not an issue per se, but

whether you can utilize them properly prepared. Some people **may**

have damaged their systems to such an extent that they can never

return to grains or much in the way of carbohydrates of any sort. I'm

not convinced that such damage is permanent but for practical purposes

for some people it may as well be permanent.

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)

[Guest guest]

I've been baking bread for many years, but most of them with plain yeast.

On occasion I've used out of date yeast by mistake, and ended up raising

the loaf for 2 days to get it lofty enough. So I can't help to wonder if

maybe the bacteria in their sourdough produced so little CO2 that it

required a 2 week ferment to become properly raised. Not to say that the

long fermentation isn't a benefit, just suggesting that maybe they were

doing it for texture reasons instead of health reasons and they got some

unintended good effects from it.

> Hmmm...so why would the Swiss ferment for two weeks...cultural habit?

>

[Guest guest]

--- lisa_mc_connell <mmlisa2@...> wrote:

> okay, great! what kind of alcohol do you all consume?? what is the

> best form? are there any conventional beers or wines that are

> acceptable?

, I like organic ale. It's fermented grains and has a long

traditional history. The only organic beer I've seen so far here in

Austin is Lamar Street organic pale ale from the Goose Island Beer

Company in Chicago, which I can get at Whole Foods. I only drink a

few beers on weekends, since alcohol is potentially addicting. But I

like the rich flavor of ale. I suspect it's better in nutrients than

most other forms of alcohol. Maybe Guinness will make an organic ale

one of these days

> So would potatoes fried in lard or butter be more acceptable than a

> grain dish?

Frying potatoes creates acrilamide, which is a suspect carcinogen that

forms when foods with protein and sugar are exposed to high heat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylamide

So, it's probably healthier to eat baked or boiled potatoes with lots

of butter and sour cream. A few people may have problems with the

glycoalkaloid poisons in potatoes, though most people seem to tolerate

the small amounts in just one or two potatoes. Most modern potatoes

have been bred to reduce the amounts of glycoalkaloids, which taste

bitter. I've read that it's best to cut out the eyes of the potatoes

to minimize the bad stuff and peeling the potato may further reduce

the nasties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycoalkaloid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine

It's interesting that deep-frying apparently reduces the

glycoalkaloids by moving them into the frying fat, so that may be a

trade-off with the acrilamide.

Maybe potatoes should be fermented too

[Guest guest]

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> Other people claim the same about freshly grinding. Most people who

> have talked about grains on this list haven't talked about freshly

> grinding much. There are other groups of people who are not into

> neutralizing phytate but are very into freshly grinding, and they

> say similar things about doing much better with those grains.

from what I've read, the main benefits from grinding fresh

grain are less oxidation of the PUFA and more phytase. I'm not sure

if the phytase is lost simply with the aging of the grains or if

grinding it to flour accelerates the loss.

> But yes, Price may have overlooked the importance. My point was

> mainly to give a counterpoint to the observation about the Swiss.

> There is nothing clear about the importance of their 2-week ageing

> of the bread, and they didn't seem to impress upon Price its

> importance. It similarly isn't clear that Price is Right either.

Yes, we still have a lot to learn. Too bad there's little funding for

this kind of work

[Guest guest]

,

> , I like organic ale. It's fermented grains and has a long

> traditional history. The only organic beer I've seen so far here in

> Austin is Lamar Street organic pale ale from the Goose Island Beer

> Company in Chicago, which I can get at Whole Foods.

Lots of beers are de facto organic, but aren't labeled as such. You

have to ask to know for sure.

> I only drink a

> few beers on weekends, since alcohol is potentially addicting.

Outside of very few foods, is there anything that isn't

**potentially** addicting? That said, from a physiological standpoint,

it is easy to avoid the " addictiveness " of alcohol.

> But I

> like the rich flavor of ale. I suspect it's better in nutrients than

> most other forms of alcohol.

Probably but I suspect the nutrient benefits of many alcoholic

beverages outside of the alcohol itself is negligible on the one hand,

and cumulative on the other (like red wine).

Also I don't think we always have to drill down to the micro-nutrient

benefit of everything we consume. A nutritionally adequate diet of

someone in good health should be able to allow them to enjoy some

things just for the sake of enjoyment, which may provide a

" nutritional " benefit all on its own. Outside of the alcohol I wonder

about the nutrient profile of the Eskimos raw spirits?

> Maybe Guinness will make an organic ale

> one of these days

Still won't like the stuff :-))

>> So would potatoes fried in lard or butter be more acceptable than a

>> grain dish?

>

> Frying potatoes creates acrilamide, which is a suspect carcinogen that

> forms when foods with protein and sugar are exposed to high heat.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylamide

Yeah but it is temperature dependent, and I'm suspicious of the

carcinogen argument, just because most of the carcinogens we are

exposed to are naturally occurring anyway. Which suggests to me the

body is more than capable of handling them in tolerable doses.

> So, it's probably healthier to eat baked or boiled potatoes with lots

> of butter and sour cream.

I thought baking was potentially problematic for acrylamide as well.

--

" We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever

spent before, and it does not work... I say after eight years of this

administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started

-- and an enormous debt to boot. "

- Henry Morgenthau (FDR's Treasury Secretary)