Re: Unheated Hydrolyzed whey protein

January 9, 2009

I am interested in learning more about whey proteins.

Is hydrolyzed whey OK?

I understand real protein is best, but is this stuff detrimental to

health?

Thanks.

Kim

January 9, 2009

They have discussed this a lot on the coconut oil forum I read.

Supposedly, it would be good for my husband to help him manage his

diabetes, but I still can't accept that it is so highly processed so I

haven't gotten any for him.

-PattyT

>

> I am interested in learning more about whey proteins.

> Is hydrolyzed whey OK?

> I understand real protein is best, but is this stuff detrimental to

> health?

> Thanks.

> Kim

>

January 9, 2009

I would not recommend any form of powdered protein. No matter how

gentle the processing there are two basic problems which can't be over

come.

First, once powdered, oxidation begins immediately and more and more

research is showing that oxidation of fats and proteins makes them

more dangerous to your health.

Second, even if the powdering process is perfect and the protein is

unaltered and you solve the oxidation problem for storage, you're

still dealing with a fractioned food. Some research indicates that

protein powders can contribute to osteoporosis while whole protein

from meat and milk does not.

Isolated whey protein is missing all the other good stuff in the milk.

And while some of it may not be strictly necessary for the direct

digestion of the whey protein itself, there certainly is a lot of good

things in raw milk.

Given a choice between isolated whey protein powder and raw milk, I

always choose the later.

Keep in mind I'm a person who used to eat a lot of powdered whey

protein so it's not like I'm not sympathetic to what you're trying to

achieve. If you're trying to increase your protein intake just eat

more meat and drink more raw milk. Also consider trying to eat some of

your meat raw. For eating raw liver I suggest lightly braising it for

about 60 seconds. I find this makes the liver far more palatable than

truly raw liver. 90% of the liver tissue is still in a raw state, but

the taste of the thin braised layer makes for much better eating.

Liver also appears to have a very positive impact on physical endurance.

Good Luck,

>

> Does anybody know where to find some? I think Thorne Research sells

it called Medipro

> at www.amazon.com but I'm not sure if it is non heated and derived

from unpasteurized

> milk. They won't tell me. They say it's proprietary. If anyone

can find out I will be your

> best friend.

>

> Metagenics sells it called Ultrameal whey protein, but they added

maltodextrine to it and I

> was personally only going to use Waxy Maize Starch instead. I don't

want added carbs.

>

> VP2 Whey protein sells " undenauted " hydrolyzed whey but they

pasteurize the milk it is

> derived from. Same with Designer Whey.

>

> Thank you,

> Holt

>

January 9, 2009

,

Would you have these same concerns about liverwurst (a sausage-like combo of

liver,

kidneys, etc.) and pemmican (a combo of pounded muscle meat / jerky and tallow).

I get

grass fed varieties from US Wellness Meats, but these are definitely processed

meats.

http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=821

http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=600

> >

> > Does anybody know where to find some? I think Thorne Research sells

> it called Medipro

> > at www.amazon.com but I'm not sure if it is non heated and derived

> from unpasteurized

> > milk. They won't tell me. They say it's proprietary. If anyone

> can find out I will be your

> > best friend.

> >

> > Metagenics sells it called Ultrameal whey protein, but they added

> maltodextrine to it and I

> > was personally only going to use Waxy Maize Starch instead. I don't

> want added carbs.

> >

> > VP2 Whey protein sells " undenauted " hydrolyzed whey but they

> pasteurize the milk it is

> > derived from. Same with Designer Whey.

> >

> > Thank you,

> > Holt

> >

>

January 9, 2009

Hydrolyzed whey is made for a specific purpose, post workout. It has the

highest absorption rate of any protein on the planet. You get a major boost in

your growth hormone. As soon as you're done with a workout or a strenuous

activity thus stuff will feed the cells right away. When you work out you break

down your muscles. The quicker you feed the the less muscle fibers are

metabolized and destroyed. Theoritically this means you gains several times

better results from your workout. You do not want any fat with this shake

because that will slow down the absorption. It's best to have it with waxy

maize starch, or a weaker alternative 50% maltodextrin 50% fructose.

Most powdered whey on the market is heated at 360 degrees farenheight. Which is

bad for you. I don't know enough about MSG but I think it might be caused by

heating? So MSG I would assume wouldn't be a problem if their is no heating.

When you intake powdered protein it depletes your body of b-vitamins and a

vitamins. Because of that I would recommend Metagenics Ultrameal or Thorne

Research Medipro as these have added vitamins to them.

The most NT friendly hydrolyzed whey I have found is Metagenics Ultrameal. This

whey is derived from raw milk, and has not been put through any higher heats.

Thorne Research I would assume is not heated but I am not sure. They say

their's does not contain msg. I personally would go with Medipro. You may also

want to look into Metagenic Pro-Gainer.

VP2 whey protein is unheated too while being powderized. They claim their's

still has immune factors from the milk. The milk it is taken from is

pasteurized.

Make sure to consume a slow digesting source of protein, carb, fat 20 minutes

later. Milk would be good afterwards, but not with the shake.

Get plenty of b vitamins and vitamin a from animals when having this shake. The

best source of this vitamin a is pastured liver and butter oil/ fermented cod

liver old from www.greenpastures.com. I don't know about liver but the butter

oil/fclo is high on vitamin d. It's important to have 1000-4000 iu of vitamin d

with a high consumption of vitamin a.

Another benefit of hydrolyzed whey is that it is very high in cystine and other

amino acids.

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2009, at 4:30 AM, " aikennutrition " <aikennutrition@...>

wrote:

I am interested in learning more about whey proteins.

Is hydrolyzed whey OK?

I understand real protein is best, but is this stuff detrimental to

health?

Thanks.

Kim

January 9, 2009

,

I suspected that's what you're trying to do as I've done it myself in

the past and I had good results. I don't know if the fat will really

slow down absorption of protein as the metabolic pathways are quite

different--have you confirmed this with your own testing?

I would avoid maltodextrin and fructose. Not only are they both

fractioned, but studies have shown reduced life expectancy from

fructose. You may be getting the immediate result you want, but at

what long term cost?

As for hydrolysis and MSG... MSG is a common form, but not the only

form, of free glutamate. Any hydrolized protein is likely to contain

some amount of free glutamate. Keep in mind the fact that fermented

dairy like kefir or yogurt will contain acid hydrolized whey protein.

Although I do not know to what degree this occurs.

If you want to get rid of the fat, use raw milk and separate the cream

before making the kefir or yogurt. I'd be curious to see how homemade

raw skim milk kefir performed against a whey protein powder. The

fermentation process would digest most of the lactose, the fat is

skimmed off and the degree of protein hydrolysis would depend on how

long you let it ferment.

I would do whatever you can to avoid protein powder. However like many

things, there may be no equivalent to whey protein isolate. And one of

the reasons may be that the powder really isn't good for us, even

though it does perform in a certain way. Then we have to make a

decision about what our goals are and what side effects we're willing

to live with.

Cheers,

>

> I am interested in learning more about whey proteins.

> Is hydrolyzed whey OK?

> I understand real protein is best, but is this stuff detrimental to

> health?

> Thanks.

> Kim

>

January 9, 2009

,

Can you please elaborate about which concern you are referring to and

how it applies to liverwurst and pemmican?

I don't believe liverwurst or pemmican noramlly contains hydrolized

whey protein.

Or did you mean to post this to the other thread started by in

which I mention pemmican?

Cheers,

> > >

> > > Does anybody know where to find some? I think Thorne Research sells

> > it called Medipro

> > > at www.amazon.com but I'm not sure if it is non heated and derived

> > from unpasteurized

> > > milk. They won't tell me. They say it's proprietary. If anyone

> > can find out I will be your

> > > best friend.

> > >

> > > Metagenics sells it called Ultrameal whey protein, but they added

> > maltodextrine to it and I

> > > was personally only going to use Waxy Maize Starch instead. I don't

> > want added carbs.

> > >

> > > VP2 Whey protein sells " undenauted " hydrolyzed whey but they

> > pasteurize the milk it is

> > > derived from. Same with Designer Whey.

> > >

> > > Thank you,

> > > Holt

> > >

> >

>

January 9, 2009

,

No, I replied to your message about whey protein. Maybe I was a little off base,

but I don't

know when " processing " meat or some other product (like milk or cheese) or

consuming a

" fractioned food " is harmful and when it is not. If we accept your statement

that powdering

protein is bad, I want to know what other forms of processing may be bad as

well.

My understanding is that jerky / pemmican means pounding a bunch of meat (after

separating out the fat) and to this is some way on the direction to having a

processed or

fractioned food.

It is all a matter of degree, so I don't know about the degree of processing /

fractioning

where we start need to worry about health effects.

Sorry for being confusing.

> > > >

> > > > Does anybody know where to find some? I think Thorne Research sells

> > > it called Medipro

> > > > at www.amazon.com but I'm not sure if it is non heated and derived

> > > from unpasteurized

> > > > milk. They won't tell me. They say it's proprietary. If anyone

> > > can find out I will be your

> > > > best friend.

> > > >

> > > > Metagenics sells it called Ultrameal whey protein, but they added

> > > maltodextrine to it and I

> > > > was personally only going to use Waxy Maize Starch instead. I don't

> > > want added carbs.

> > > >

> > > > VP2 Whey protein sells " undenauted " hydrolyzed whey but they

> > > pasteurize the milk it is

> > > > derived from. Same with Designer Whey.

> > > >

> > > > Thank you,

> > > > Holt

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

January 9, 2009

Yeah, after looking at it again I feel the best protein choices are Thorne

Research Medipro, or Asst sports VP2 whey protein. Of the two I would choose

Medipro. I would consider maybe just using Thorne Research hydrolyzed whey and

have Nutritional yeast 20 minutes later as that is high in b vitamins. Medipro

is the same but with added vitamins and minerals. I would have pastured liver,

and butter oil/fclo for breakfast.

I will personally go for a low fat diet. However, the fat I do have will be

nutrient dense. I will also eat a ton of fermented foods. The plan may be a

little high in protein. This is somewhat based on the diet of cultures in hot

altitudes. High carb, low fat, low protein with a high level of nutrients with

fermented foods.

This is what my postworkout shake would actually look like.

Www.Trueprotein.com I use a premade mix

75% Waxy Maize Starch

10% peptopro (for peptides)

10% BCAA

5% Leucine

With stevia and lemon for flavor

Put together my shake and add in a serving of Medipro and more waxy maize

starch. You want 66% of the blend to be Waxy Maize starch to shuttle the

nutrients asap. That would be 92g of WMS, and 46g of everything else.

20 minutes later have 3 oz of seabuckthorn berries, 1/2 oz. Coconut shavings,

and 1 oz. Nutritional Yeast.

From what I've been hearing fat slows down the absorption of protein. Which

defeats the purpose of a fast absorbing post workout shake.

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2009, at 11:33 AM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

,

I suspected that's what you're trying to do as I've done it myself in

the past and I had good results. I don't know if the fat will really

slow down absorption of protein as the metabolic pathways are quite

different--have you confirmed this with your own testing?

I would avoid maltodextrin and fructose. Not only are they both

fractioned, but studies have shown reduced life expectancy from

fructose. You may be getting the immediate result you want, but at

what long term cost?

As for hydrolysis and MSG... MSG is a common form, but not the only

form, of free glutamate. Any hydrolized protein is likely to contain

some amount of free glutamate. Keep in mind the fact that fermented

dairy like kefir or yogurt will contain acid hydrolized whey protein.

Although I do not know to what degree this occurs.

If you want to get rid of the fat, use raw milk and separate the cream

before making the kefir or yogurt. I'd be curious to see how homemade

raw skim milk kefir performed against a whey protein powder. The

fermentation process would digest most of the lactose, the fat is

skimmed off and the degree of protein hydrolysis would depend on how

long you let it ferment.

I would do whatever you can to avoid protein powder. However like many

things, there may be no equivalent to whey protein isolate. And one of

the reasons may be that the powder really isn't good for us, even

though it does perform in a certain way. Then we have to make a

decision about what our goals are and what side effects we're willing

to live with.

Cheers,

>

> I am interested in learning more about whey proteins.

> Is hydrolyzed whey OK?

> I understand real protein is best, but is this stuff detrimental to

> health?

> Thanks.

> Kim

>

January 9, 2009

,

What is your concern about fat? Eating fat will not make you fat.

Eating too many calroies is what makes you fat. Perhaps you should

read " Eat Fat, Lose Fat " . This groups is strongly pro fat and many of

us eat large amounts of it with no weight problems. Consider what the

Framingham Heart Study found, " In Framingham, Massachusetts, the more

saturated fat one ate, the more cholesterol one ate, the more calories

one ate, the lower people's serum cholesterol...we found that the

people who ate the most cholesterol, ate the most saturated fat, ate

the most calories weighed the least and were the most physically

active. " Dr Castelli 1992 (Director of the Framingham study)

Traditional foods in hot climates are high in fat. I know this

conflicts with " common knowledge " , but as is often the case, common

knowledge is simply wrong.

Stefansson writes about this in " The Fat of The Land " . Whites going on

Amazon expeditions had to make sure they provisioned enough fat or

their aboriginal guides would refuse to work. Pemmican is 80% fat by

calorie and was invented by Plains Indians as a summer food and was

used exclusively by workers in the fur trade all through the summers

with temperatures over 100F in the shade while carrying 90-270lb loads.

To better understand the physiological principles, think back to all

the times you've been in really hot weather, isn't it physically

draining? Especially if you're doing any amount of work. Fat is twice

as caloric by weight as protein or carbs. It also burns slower, so fat

in hot weather helps to provide energy so you don't feel drained.

You need to be careful about how much total protein you are taking in.

It is the least forgiving of the three macro nutrients. Too little and

you start to metabolize your own tissues which can lead to muscle

wasting. Too much and you'll get really sick. Diarrhea, distended

belly, feeling unsatisfied no matter how much you eat. So protein

intake should be limited to roughly 25% of total calories. As opposed

to fat which you can eat 80% of your calories from fat. Carbs can also

go well over 25%, although a low fat diet is dangerous for a host of

reasons.

Any fat you eat should be the highest quality you can find. Butter fat

and beef tallow are two excellent fats provided the animals are 100%

grass fed. Same goes for lard and mutton tallow as well. If you can

get unfiltered olive oil it's good in small amounts. All the PUFAs

should be avoided including Canola. Almost all vegetable oils are

highly refined and are the same as white flour and white sugar in that

they have had all their enzymes and other nutrients removed and are

likely to be oxidized to some degree.

Have you read Sally's Nourishing Traditions? It's an excellent book

that covers all this and much more. Plus it's a cook book.

Sincerely,

> >

> > I am interested in learning more about whey proteins.

> > Is hydrolyzed whey OK?

> > I understand real protein is best, but is this stuff detrimental to

> > health?

> > Thanks.

> > Kim

> >

January 9, 2009

I spent a few minutes looking and couldn't find any data about how

much hydrolyzed whey protein is in yogurt or kefir. I suspect the

longer the ferment the higher the degree of hydrolysis.

But I did find a study that indicated that yogurt is digested 3 times

faster than fresh milk. Thus yogurt or kefir may be an acceptable

alternative to hydrolyzed whey protein powder.

I would at least give it a try for a few weeks and see how it performs.

Aim, L 1982. Effects of fermentation on curd size

and digestibility of milk proteins in vitro of Swedish

fermented milk productK J. Dairy Sci. 65:509.

Cheers,

> >

> > I am interested in learning more about whey proteins.

> > Is hydrolyzed whey OK?

> > I understand real protein is best, but is this stuff detrimental to

> > health?

> > Thanks.

> > Kim

> >

January 9, 2009

This is where I gathered some of my knowledge when putting this plan togethet.

Read the very bottom of this page.

Www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/macronutrientland.org

Read the paragraph titled

Can Low Protein, High Carbohydrate diet be healthy?

It's almost at the very bottom of the web-page

Sorry I can't copy and paste, I'm using an Iphone and don't have access to PC

at the moment.

The basic point is you can consume a low protein, low fat, high carb diets. But

in order to do this you would need to eat nutrient dense fermented foods. One

of the biggest points to eat animal fat is to get the quinones, cholesterol, and

the vitamins a, d, and k. It's also beneficial to eat fats in the proper ratio.

That's something I may be off on. You also want to keep your saturated fat

intake atleast at 20%, but it's much healtheir to keep it to atleast 50% of

total fat intake or more.

I will be eating raw bovine liver and consuming butter oil/fclo, both very

nutrient dense. 8 oz of butter oil has concentration of 8 bottles of raw cream?

I think that is right On top of consuming moderate amounts of fat sources

such as macadamia nuts, raw kefir milk, raw cheese, sea buckthorn berries, black

currant seed oil, eggs, natto, oysters, whole oats, and raw butter.

I'm sure these African tribes consumed a lot more carbs and overall calories

than me. However, they were far more active than I am. They are also in a

hotter environment where they burn more calories because of the heat. If I were

a construction worker I would probably need to up my carbohydrate and fat

intake.

Here is my view, I'm using a bodybuilding approach. Why do most bodybuilders

eat moderate protein, low fat, moderate carbohydrates for the most part? It's

because we live in a sedentary society where even if you are active you're still

not burning as many calories as our hard working ancestors, many of which

couldn't go to college and afford not to work hard, and didn't have the modern

conveniences that make it to where we don't need to consume as much, such as air

conditioners, restaurant work, office work, etc. The greater percentage of

people that lift weights find it most effective to consume moderate protein, low

fat, and moderate carbohydrate. I'm still debating lowering my protein intake.

IMO most bodybuilders overwork their bodies and spend too much time in the gym.

The ones with the huge physiques usually rely on steroids and put a huge

negative debt on their bodies in the future. My strategy is to go short bursts,

high intensity, so I can conserve energy and calories. I base my regimen on

High Intensity Training. Their is evidence of individuals being highly

successful with this. I've deviated a bit from the principals of the teachers

of HIT. In my mind their closeminded to

Some of the concepts of nutrition. I found many nutrition weaknesses with Dr.

Arthur and Ellington Darden. They stray away from fermented foods, and

eat a lot of high heat meat and processed food such as store bought white and

wheat bread. only lived to 72. They focused on simplicity, intensity,

mind work and were conservative with their time. I'm not looking to be a

competitive bodybuilder, but to build a strong athletic " bodybuilding " physique

that is useful for any sport. Universailty.

The hydrolyzed whey protein may do some harm.

I will further my research with the long living people of the Hunza Tribes,

Vilcabamba, and the Georgians. Anybody recommend any books. I'll be ordering

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price, and I'm waiting for Dr.

Ron Schmidt's two books in the mail. His book, " Traditional Foods are your

Medicine " covers the eating habits of these particular cultures.

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2009, at 12:39 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>