Re: Unheated Hydrolyzed whey protein

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Okay, I have a question - if you're making your own raw

> > kefir/cheese/whatnot... why not just save the liquid whey for use in

> your

> > after-workout drink? Do you just not get enough of it from the amount of

> > dairy ferments you make at home?

> > -Lana

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The Masai live in a fairly hot area, and they ate (before beooming

more modernized) a very high-fat diet. The traditional Eskimo/Inuit

diet probably has the highest fat content of all traditional diets. I

agree that carbs are slightly more allowable in hotter weather. I

find that tropical fruits can make me have anxiety/panic attack

problems if I eat them when the weather is cold, but not as much when

it is warm. My panic attacks (back when I still had them, before

getting off the fruitarian diet regime. and before I started eating

more fat and supplementing with more minerals) were less of a problem

when eating cold weather fruits.

I think the TYPE of fat is also somewhat important. In general,

unless you live in a VERY extreme climate, it's probably not a bad

idea to get a wide variety of different types of fats, including

saturated, mono-unsaturated, poly-unsaturated, etc. There are

noticeable differences in the mix of the different types of dietary

fats available in very cold versus very hot climates. There are

others here who can comment on that better than me.

Mike

--------------------------------------------

I was referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in

macronutrient land. In general people in hotter regions didn't

consume as much fat as say people in cold regions where they consumed

alot of fat.

>

> I looked at the percentages on Adventures in Macronutrient land. On

average people consumed somewhere around 30% fat a day back in the

1900s. They were also several times more active because they had to

work harder too.

>

> I haven't ready it my self but I've heard the Hunza and the

Vilcabamba tribes don't consume that much fat during the hotter times

of the year. Is this true?

>

[Guest guest]

It also sounds like the conditions change based on what you have available to

eat and what knowledge the culture has of preparing food.

Some people (very few) don't eat at all for several years. Others can go months

without food. Other people are naturally good at conserving their energy so

they're not going to eat as much.

Ram Bomjon went half a year or more without any food. He sat and meditated. If

he did have anything it was a meager amount of herbs and maybe water. He's a

rinpoche. That's equivalent in attainment to maybe a dean of a university.

Thanks,

Dan Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2009, at 7:42 AM, " michael g " <tropical@...> wrote:

The Masai live in a fairly hot area, and they ate (before beooming

more modernized) a very high-fat diet. The traditional Eskimo/Inuit

diet probably has the highest fat content of all traditional diets. I

agree that carbs are slightly more allowable in hotter weather. I

find that tropical fruits can make me have anxiety/panic attack

problems if I eat them when the weather is cold, but not as much when

it is warm. My panic attacks (back when I still had them, before

getting off the fruitarian diet regime. and before I started eating

more fat and supplementing with more minerals) were less of a problem

when eating cold weather fruits.

I think the TYPE of fat is also somewhat important. In general,

unless you live in a VERY extreme climate, it's probably not a bad

idea to get a wide variety of different types of fats, including

saturated, mono-unsaturated, poly-unsaturated, etc. There are

noticeable differences in the mix of the different types of dietary

fats available in very cold versus very hot climates. There are

others here who can comment on that better than me.

Mike

--------------------------------------------

I was referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in

macronutrient land. In general people in hotter regions didn't

consume as much fat as say people in cold regions where they consumed

alot of fat.

>

> I looked at the percentages on Adventures in Macronutrient land. On

average people consumed somewhere around 30% fat a day back in the

1900s. They were also several times more active because they had to

work harder too.

>

> I haven't ready it my self but I've heard the Hunza and the

Vilcabamba tribes don't consume that much fat during the hotter times

of the year. Is this true?

>

[Guest guest]

People in warmer climates or seasons of the year eat more plant foods because

such

foods are more available. This " Bible Life " / pro-Weston Price site that

advocates a high fat

diet claims the Hunza ate a lot of dairy products in the winter, and that the

diet by calorie

terms was high in fat throughout the year. They did eat a lot of plant foods,

especially in

the summer. The site claims that the Hunza should not be used as a model of

health.

http://www.biblelife.org/hunza.htm

>

> The Masai live in a fairly hot area, and they ate (before beooming

> more modernized) a very high-fat diet. The traditional Eskimo/Inuit

> diet probably has the highest fat content of all traditional diets. I

> agree that carbs are slightly more allowable in hotter weather. I

> find that tropical fruits can make me have anxiety/panic attack

> problems if I eat them when the weather is cold, but not as much when

> it is warm. My panic attacks (back when I still had them, before

> getting off the fruitarian diet regime. and before I started eating

> more fat and supplementing with more minerals) were less of a problem

> when eating cold weather fruits.

>

> I think the TYPE of fat is also somewhat important. In general,

> unless you live in a VERY extreme climate, it's probably not a bad

> idea to get a wide variety of different types of fats, including

> saturated, mono-unsaturated, poly-unsaturated, etc. There are

> noticeable differences in the mix of the different types of dietary

> fats available in very cold versus very hot climates. There are

> others here who can comment on that better than me.

>

> Mike

>

>

> --------------------------------------------

>

> I was referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in

> macronutrient land. In general people in hotter regions didn't

> consume as much fat as say people in cold regions where they consumed

> alot of fat.

> >

> > I looked at the percentages on Adventures in Macronutrient land. On

> average people consumed somewhere around 30% fat a day back in the

> 1900s. They were also several times more active because they had to

> work harder too.

> >

> > I haven't ready it my self but I've heard the Hunza and the

> Vilcabamba tribes don't consume that much fat during the hotter times

> of the year. Is this true?

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Do you know anything about the Vilcabamba's? I've only done a little bit of

reading and it sound like they had quite a few centenarians in the past. Now in

days they have been somewhat modernized with fast food and electricity, so

they're getting modern diseases. The centenarians were reported to eat 1800 cal

diets with mostly vegetables, fruits, legumes, and grains. They had various

meats but it was not the staple of their diet. They would go some days without

eating anything. Their crops also had exposure to glacial runoff. I read a

wild claim on a site that their were tibetans that lived very long lives.

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2009, at 10:35 AM, " jeremyfox " <jeremytfox@...> wrote:

People in warmer climates or seasons of the year eat more plant foods because

such

foods are more available. This " Bible Life " / pro-Weston Price site that

advocates a high fat

diet claims the Hunza ate a lot of dairy products in the winter, and that the

diet by calorie

terms was high in fat throughout the year. They did eat a lot of plant foods,

especially in

the summer. The site claims that the Hunza should not be used as a model of

health.

http://www.biblelife.org/hunza.htm

>

> The Masai live in a fairly hot area, and they ate (before beooming

> more modernized) a very high-fat diet. The traditional Eskimo/Inuit

> diet probably has the highest fat content of all traditional diets. I

> agree that carbs are slightly more allowable in hotter weather. I

> find that tropical fruits can make me have anxiety/panic attack

> problems if I eat them when the weather is cold, but not as much when

> it is warm. My panic attacks (back when I still had them, before

> getting off the fruitarian diet regime. and before I started eating

> more fat and supplementing with more minerals) were less of a problem

> when eating cold weather fruits.

>

> I think the TYPE of fat is also somewhat important. In general,

> unless you live in a VERY extreme climate, it's probably not a bad

> idea to get a wide variety of different types of fats, including

> saturated, mono-unsaturated, poly-unsaturated, etc. There are

> noticeable differences in the mix of the different types of dietary

> fats available in very cold versus very hot climates. There are

> others here who can comment on that better than me.

>

> Mike

>

>

> --------------------------------------------

>

> I was referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in

> macronutrient land. In general people in hotter regions didn't

> consume as much fat as say people in cold regions where they consumed

> alot of fat.

> >

> > I looked at the percentages on Adventures in Macronutrient land. On

> average people consumed somewhere around 30% fat a day back in the

> 1900s. They were also several times more active because they had to

> work harder too.

> >

> > I haven't ready it my self but I've heard the Hunza and the

> Vilcabamba tribes don't consume that much fat during the hotter times

> of the year. Is this true?

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Calorie restriction is an interesting field of research. Most species

seem to have their lives extended, some time by a factor of 3!

Within this field, the focus has been on genes that get turned on when

calories are restricted. I don't enough about it to have an opinion.

But I do know the Dr. Howell's work with enzymes would seem to

indicate that you can extend your life by eating more enzymes rather

than having your body synthesize them.

There is a saying, " you can starve a horse faster feeding is straw

than nothing at all " .

Digestion is a physiologically expensive process.

Cheers,

> >

> > The Masai live in a fairly hot area, and they ate (before beooming

> > more modernized) a very high-fat diet. The traditional Eskimo/Inuit

> > diet probably has the highest fat content of all traditional diets. I

> > agree that carbs are slightly more allowable in hotter weather. I

> > find that tropical fruits can make me have anxiety/panic attack

> > problems if I eat them when the weather is cold, but not as much when

> > it is warm. My panic attacks (back when I still had them, before

> > getting off the fruitarian diet regime. and before I started eating

> > more fat and supplementing with more minerals) were less of a problem

> > when eating cold weather fruits.

> >

> > I think the TYPE of fat is also somewhat important. In general,

> > unless you live in a VERY extreme climate, it's probably not a bad

> > idea to get a wide variety of different types of fats, including

> > saturated, mono-unsaturated, poly-unsaturated, etc. There are

> > noticeable differences in the mix of the different types of dietary

> > fats available in very cold versus very hot climates. There are

> > others here who can comment on that better than me.

> >

> > Mike

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------------------

> >

> > I was referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in

> > macronutrient land. In general people in hotter regions didn't

> > consume as much fat as say people in cold regions where they consumed

> > alot of fat.

> > >

> > > I looked at the percentages on Adventures in Macronutrient land. On

> > average people consumed somewhere around 30% fat a day back in the

> > 1900s. They were also several times more active because they had to

> > work harder too.

> > >

> > > I haven't ready it my self but I've heard the Hunza and the

> > Vilcabamba tribes don't consume that much fat during the hotter times

> > of the year. Is this true?

> >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm glad you brought up seasonality. One hallmark of traditional diets

which doesn't get enough attention is scarcity. It is sometimes

inferred by discussions of " seasonality " . Scarcity is an inherent part

of " seasonality " . I would guess that some reduction in fat consumption

in the summer is probably due to displacement. There is just more to

eat in the summer so there is less room for fat.

In a modern context we see that whenever circumstances allow it,

people seek out fat. Meat consumption in China is a classic example.

As people's income rise, so does their meat consumption.

As for fat types, I would be very careful about how many

polyunsaturated fats you consume. The recommendation from WAPF is to

limit total intake to 4% of total calories and the ratio of omega 6 to

omega 3 should be roughly 1:1-2.5:1 range. Saturated and

monoumsaturated fats should thus make up the other 96%. A quick scan

of fat types in lard, beef/mutton tallows and other animal fats shows

that most are mostly saturated and monosaturated. Thus they are the

logical choice. Butter is 70% saturated, 30% monounsaturated.

As to the hot/cold climate aspect of fat consumption, I believe it to

be mostly an imaginary issue that's been repeated so many times that

people think it must be true. It's been mostly perpetuated by northern

Europeans much to their own suffering. Several accounts can be found

in " The Fat of the Land " .

A careful examination of what people actually eat traditionally will

show that much fat is eaten in the hottest parts of the world. Fried

chicken is popular in the south as are biscuits and country gravy.

Whether they're at the arctic circle or the equator, traditional

people generally ate the same amount and type of fats. The reasons are

manifold but the fundamental one is that human physiology is

essentially the same no matter where we live.

The principles that fat's higher caloric density and slower burn rate

some how will make you hotter than if you limit fat and replace the

calories with carbs instead is simply not supported by reality.

Go to the Amazon and try hire some native guides and tell them you're

not provisioning any fat because it's not appropriate for hot weather

and they will laugh at you while you sail down the river alone.

I suspect that two reasons why fat is important in hot climates are

first that it provides energy to counter the energy sapping effect of

heat. Also, since carbs burn faster than fat they would tend to

produce a " burst " of heat where the fat burns slower so the heat

release is more gradual. Whatever the mechanism, I'm convinced from

the research I've done that fat is just as important in hot climates

as cold as moderate.

:-)

Cheers,

>

> The Masai live in a fairly hot area, and they ate (before beooming

> more modernized) a very high-fat diet. The traditional Eskimo/Inuit

> diet probably has the highest fat content of all traditional diets. I

> agree that carbs are slightly more allowable in hotter weather. I

> find that tropical fruits can make me have anxiety/panic attack

> problems if I eat them when the weather is cold, but not as much when

> it is warm. My panic attacks (back when I still had them, before

> getting off the fruitarian diet regime. and before I started eating

> more fat and supplementing with more minerals) were less of a problem

> when eating cold weather fruits.

>

> I think the TYPE of fat is also somewhat important. In general,

> unless you live in a VERY extreme climate, it's probably not a bad

> idea to get a wide variety of different types of fats, including

> saturated, mono-unsaturated, poly-unsaturated, etc. There are

> noticeable differences in the mix of the different types of dietary

> fats available in very cold versus very hot climates. There are

> others here who can comment on that better than me.

>

> Mike

>

> --------------------------------------------

>

> I was referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in

> macronutrient land. In general people in hotter regions didn't

> consume as much fat as say people in cold regions where they consumed

> alot of fat.

> >

> > I looked at the percentages on Adventures in Macronutrient land. On

> average people consumed somewhere around 30% fat a day back in the

> 1900s. They were also several times more active because they had to

> work harder too.

> >

> > I haven't ready it my self but I've heard the Hunza and the

> Vilcabamba tribes don't consume that much fat during the hotter times

> of the year. Is this true?

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm under the impression that the only culture that has attempted to

embrace a low fat diet is our Western culture. And it's mostly talk.

If you look at per capita fat consumption according to the USDA we're

eating more fat than ever. From 1908 to 2006 fat consumption went up

243%. So as our incomes rose and availability improved, we clearly

ramped up our fat consumption.

The problem is that most of it is polyunsaturated and trans fat--both

of which are toxic even in relatively small amounts.

I can't imagine a culture where fat was readily available and it was

intentionally avoided. Look at ours, the press, doctors and

nutritionists are all telling us to eat less fat and we're largely

ignoring them.

Cheers,

--- In , <slethnobotanist@...>

wrote:

>

> ,

>

> > Carbs can also

> > go well over 25%, although a low fat diet is dangerous for a host of

> > reasons.

>

> Not necessarily. Depends on how you put it together. High carb/low fat

> in and of itself doesn't seem to be the problem, but the typical high

> carb/low fat diet in the west certainly is a problem.

>

> > Any fat you eat should be the highest quality you can find. Butter fat

> > and beef tallow are two excellent fats provided the animals are 100%

> > grass fed. Same goes for lard and mutton tallow as well. If you can

> > get unfiltered olive oil it's good in small amounts. All the PUFAs

> > should be avoided including Canola. Almost all vegetable oils are

> > highly refined and are the same as white flour and white sugar in that

> > they have had all their enzymes and other nutrients removed and are

> > likely to be oxidized to some degree.

> >

> > Have you read Sally's Nourishing Traditions? It's an excellent book

> > that covers all this and much more. Plus it's a cook book.

>

> IIRC, Sally Fallon makes a passing reference in the beginning of the

> book of one traditional group that thrived quite well on what we would

> consider a low fat diet.

>

>

> --

> " Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

> signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

> not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

> not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

> the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

> cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

> iron. "

>

> ~ Dwight Eisenhower

>

[Guest guest]

Are there any NT books that are respectable and talk about how people thrive on

low fat, low-moderate protein, and high (50-60% range) carbs, with all the food

properly prepared and much of it fermented? I'm guessing from the limited

information I read the Vilcabamba's fit this profile and they even went days

without eating. If the report was correct they had the highest rate of

centenarians of any culture.

I would have guessed the ratio would be 80% sat fat, 16% mono/miscellaneous fat,

And 4% poly fat.

Here's my planned fat intake

High vitamin butter oil 1/2tspn

Fermented Cod Liver oil 1/2 tspn

Black Currant Seed Oil 1 g

EPA/DHA 1.2g

84g natto once a week

1 cup raw milk

3oz pastured raw Liver

1/2 cup sprouted whole oats

1 oz Raw cheese or curds

1 tbl Raw butter

1/4 oz macadamia nuts (sprouted?)

1 grass fed free range egg

1 oz coconut shavings

And 1 oz oysters

This all comes out to about 74g of fat, 43 of which is saturated. 28 g is mono

and miscellaneous, and 3g are polyunsaturated. You think I should add some fat?

I guess I could make the rest of it Pemmican. Can I find some good quality for

cheap or would I need to make it myself from organic pastures meat? I have

about 180g of protein and 310g of carbs. Do I need to change this ratio?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2009, at 6:54 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

I'm glad you brought up seasonality. One hallmark of traditional diets

which doesn't get enough attention is scarcity. It is sometimes

inferred by discussions of " seasonality " . Scarcity is an inherent part

of " seasonality " . I would guess that some reduction in fat consumption

in the summer is probably due to displacement. There is just more to

eat in the summer so there is less room for fat.

In a modern context we see that whenever circumstances allow it,

people seek out fat. Meat consumption in China is a classic example.

As people's income rise, so does their meat consumption.

As for fat types, I would be very careful about how many

polyunsaturated fats you consume. The recommendation from WAPF is to

limit total intake to 4% of total calories and the ratio of omega 6 to

omega 3 should be roughly 1:1-2.5:1 range. Saturated and

monoumsaturated fats should thus make up the other 96%. A quick scan

of fat types in lard, beef/mutton tallows and other animal fats shows

that most are mostly saturated and monosaturated. Thus they are the

logical choice. Butter is 70% saturated, 30% monounsaturated.

As to the hot/cold climate aspect of fat consumption, I believe it to

be mostly an imaginary issue that's been repeated so many times that

people think it must be true. It's been mostly perpetuated by northern

Europeans much to their own suffering. Several accounts can be found

in " The Fat of the Land " .

A careful examination of what people actually eat traditionally will

show that much fat is eaten in the hottest parts of the world. Fried

chicken is popular in the south as are biscuits and country gravy.

Whether they're at the arctic circle or the equator, traditional

people generally ate the same amount and type of fats. The reasons are

manifold but the fundamental one is that human physiology is

essentially the same no matter where we live.

The principles that fat's higher caloric density and slower burn rate

some how will make you hotter than if you limit fat and replace the

calories with carbs instead is simply not supported by reality.

Go to the Amazon and try hire some native guides and tell them you're

not provisioning any fat because it's not appropriate for hot weather

and they will laugh at you while you sail down the river alone.

I suspect that two reasons why fat is important in hot climates are

first that it provides energy to counter the energy sapping effect of

heat. Also, since carbs burn faster than fat they would tend to

produce a " burst " of heat where the fat burns slower so the heat

release is more gradual. Whatever the mechanism, I'm convinced from

the research I've done that fat is just as important in hot climates

as cold as moderate.

:-)

Cheers,

>

> The Masai live in a fairly hot area, and they ate (before beooming

> more modernized) a very high-fat diet. The traditional Eskimo/Inuit

> diet probably has the highest fat content of all traditional diets. I

> agree that carbs are slightly more allowable in hotter weather. I

> find that tropical fruits can make me have anxiety/panic attack

> problems if I eat them when the weather is cold, but not as much when

> it is warm. My panic attacks (back when I still had them, before

> getting off the fruitarian diet regime. and before I started eating

> more fat and supplementing with more minerals) were less of a problem

> when eating cold weather fruits.

>

> I think the TYPE of fat is also somewhat important. In general,

> unless you live in a VERY extreme climate, it's probably not a bad

> idea to get a wide variety of different types of fats, including

> saturated, mono-unsaturated, poly-unsaturated, etc. There are

> noticeable differences in the mix of the different types of dietary

> fats available in very cold versus very hot climates. There are

> others here who can comment on that better than me.

>

> Mike

>

> --------------------------------------------

>

> I was referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in

> macronutrient land. In general people in hotter regions didn't

> consume as much fat as say people in cold regions where they consumed

> alot of fat.

> >

> > I looked at the percentages on Adventures in Macronutrient land. On

> average people consumed somewhere around 30% fat a day back in the

> 1900s. They were also several times more active because they had to

> work harder too.

> >

> > I haven't ready it my self but I've heard the Hunza and the

> Vilcabamba tribes don't consume that much fat during the hotter times

> of the year. Is this true?

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was under the assumption that when the food was scarce in the winter people

would preserve their meat in the snow and live off of the fat because it was

extremely cold. That's what they taught in school. Guess that is wrong.

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2009, at 6:54 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

I'm glad you brought up seasonality. One hallmark of traditional diets

which doesn't get enough attention is scarcity. It is sometimes

inferred by discussions of " seasonality " . Scarcity is an inherent part

of " seasonality " . I would guess that some reduction in fat consumption

in the summer is probably due to displacement. There is just more to

eat in the summer so there is less room for fat.

In a modern context we see that whenever circumstances allow it,

people seek out fat. Meat consumption in China is a classic example.

As people's income rise, so does their meat consumption.

As for fat types, I would be very careful about how many

polyunsaturated fats you consume. The recommendation from WAPF is to

limit total intake to 4% of total calories and the ratio of omega 6 to

omega 3 should be roughly 1:1-2.5:1 range. Saturated and

monoumsaturated fats should thus make up the other 96%. A quick scan

of fat types in lard, beef/mutton tallows and other animal fats shows

that most are mostly saturated and monosaturated. Thus they are the

logical choice. Butter is 70% saturated, 30% monounsaturated.

As to the hot/cold climate aspect of fat consumption, I believe it to

be mostly an imaginary issue that's been repeated so many times that

people think it must be true. It's been mostly perpetuated by northern

Europeans much to their own suffering. Several accounts can be found

in " The Fat of the Land " .

A careful examination of what people actually eat traditionally will

show that much fat is eaten in the hottest parts of the world. Fried

chicken is popular in the south as are biscuits and country gravy.

Whether they're at the arctic circle or the equator, traditional

people generally ate the same amount and type of fats. The reasons are

manifold but the fundamental one is that human physiology is

essentially the same no matter where we live.

The principles that fat's higher caloric density and slower burn rate

some how will make you hotter than if you limit fat and replace the

calories with carbs instead is simply not supported by reality.

Go to the Amazon and try hire some native guides and tell them you're

not provisioning any fat because it's not appropriate for hot weather

and they will laugh at you while you sail down the river alone.

I suspect that two reasons why fat is important in hot climates are

first that it provides energy to counter the energy sapping effect of

heat. Also, since carbs burn faster than fat they would tend to

produce a " burst " of heat where the fat burns slower so the heat

release is more gradual. Whatever the mechanism, I'm convinced from

the research I've done that fat is just as important in hot climates

as cold as moderate.

:-)

Cheers,

>

> The Masai live in a fairly hot area, and they ate (before beooming

> more modernized) a very high-fat diet. The traditional Eskimo/Inuit

> diet probably has the highest fat content of all traditional diets. I

> agree that carbs are slightly more allowable in hotter weather. I

> find that tropical fruits can make me have anxiety/panic attack

> problems if I eat them when the weather is cold, but not as much when

> it is warm. My panic attacks (back when I still had them, before

> getting off the fruitarian diet regime. and before I started eating

> more fat and supplementing with more minerals) were less of a problem

> when eating cold weather fruits.

>

> I think the TYPE of fat is also somewhat important. In general,

> unless you live in a VERY extreme climate, it's probably not a bad

> idea to get a wide variety of different types of fats, including

> saturated, mono-unsaturated, poly-unsaturated, etc. There are

> noticeable differences in the mix of the different types of dietary

> fats available in very cold versus very hot climates. There are

> others here who can comment on that better than me.

>

> Mike

>

> --------------------------------------------

>

> I was referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in

> macronutrient land. In general people in hotter regions didn't

> consume as much fat as say people in cold regions where they consumed

> alot of fat.

> >

> > I looked at the percentages on Adventures in Macronutrient land. On

> average people consumed somewhere around 30% fat a day back in the

> 1900s. They were also several times more active because they had to

> work harder too.

> >

> > I haven't ready it my self but I've heard the Hunza and the

> Vilcabamba tribes don't consume that much fat during the hotter times

> of the year. Is this true?

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sally Fallon mentions it in the article Adventures in Macronutrient Land. It's

on the WAPF website. It's at the bottom of the page. It is titled

Low Protein, Low Fat, High Carbs

The point it made was there were African cultures that ate like this and the

fermented a lot of their food.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2009, at 7:26 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

I'm under the impression that the only culture that has attempted to

embrace a low fat diet is our Western culture. And it's mostly talk.

If you look at per capita fat consumption according to the USDA we're

eating more fat than ever. From 1908 to 2006 fat consumption went up

243%. So as our incomes rose and availability improved, we clearly

ramped up our fat consumption.

The problem is that most of it is polyunsaturated and trans fat--both

of which are toxic even in relatively small amounts.

I can't imagine a culture where fat was readily available and it was

intentionally avoided. Look at ours, the press, doctors and

nutritionists are all telling us to eat less fat and we're largely

ignoring them.

Cheers,

--- In , <slethnobotanist@...>

wrote:

>

> ,

>

> > Carbs can also

> > go well over 25%, although a low fat diet is dangerous for a host of

> > reasons.

>

> Not necessarily. Depends on how you put it together. High carb/low fat

> in and of itself doesn't seem to be the problem, but the typical high

> carb/low fat diet in the west certainly is a problem.

>

> > Any fat you eat should be the highest quality you can find. Butter fat

> > and beef tallow are two excellent fats provided the animals are 100%

> > grass fed. Same goes for lard and mutton tallow as well. If you can

> > get unfiltered olive oil it's good in small amounts. All the PUFAs

> > should be avoided including Canola. Almost all vegetable oils are

> > highly refined and are the same as white flour and white sugar in that

> > they have had all their enzymes and other nutrients removed and are

> > likely to be oxidized to some degree.

> >

> > Have you read Sally's Nourishing Traditions? It's an excellent book

> > that covers all this and much more. Plus it's a cook book.

>

> IIRC, Sally Fallon makes a passing reference in the beginning of the

> book of one traditional group that thrived quite well on what we would

> consider a low fat diet.

>

>

> --

> " Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

> signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

> not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

> not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

> the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

> cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

> iron. "

>

> ~ Dwight Eisenhower

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Are there any NT books that are respectable and talk about how people thrive

on low

fat, low-moderate protein, and high (50-60% range) carbs, with all the food

properly

prepared and much of it fermented?

Chapter 9 of Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration contains a survey of

the African

groups Price visited. He is clear that the groups eating animal products were

better

developed physically:

" The lowest percentage of irregularity occurred in the tribes living verly

largely on dairy

products and marine life. For example, among the Masai living on milk, blood and

meat,

only 3.4% had irregularities. Among the Kikuyu and Wakamba, 18.2 and 18.9 per

cent

respectively had irregularities. These people were largely agriculturists living

on vegetable

foods. "

Price's interpretation is that these groups were not getting their vitamins. He

is not in

favor of a low-carb diet; his favorite mountain Swiss ate a lot of rye in

addition to full-fat

dairy.

Chapter 14 talks about Indians from Peru, who do well on fish, animals, eggs,

plants, fruit

and particularly yucca, which is like our potato.

I cannot completely answer your question, but Price lists evidence of healthy

groups eating

lots of carbs but also lots of animal products.

[Guest guest]

,

> I'm being conservative, watching my calories, and being detailed like a

> bodybuilder. I'm also going to build a proportionate muscular physique. I'm

> 5'8 " with a bigger build so I would like to bring myself down between 12% to

> 6% bodyfat at maybe 180-200 pounds. Whatever feels more comfortable. I would

> develop a useful body like Franco Colombu where I can compete at different

> sports while having a good looking strong foundation. I would try to be more

> aesthetically pleasing like Zane where I am well built but not nearly

> the level of bulk like most guys.

There is a HUGE difference in the look of the physique of Colombo

versus Zane in their prime, but both men looked pretty big. Zane

didn't look big next to the typical bodybuilder but he certainly

looked big next to non-bodybuilders.

> I naturally have a bodybuilder type build

> and am naturally very strong. I normally weigh around 200. I've played

> sports and lift weighs. I also have good flexability and balance. I was

> referring to the African cultures listed in adventures in macronutrient

> land. In general people in hotter regions didn't consume as much fat as say

> people in cold regions where they consumed alot of fat.

I'm not sure you can make that across the board generalization, but

certainly the only group that seemed to have a higher amount of PUFA

consumption were the Eskimos, who obviously lived in a very cold

climate, and ate seafoods whose fats were higher in PUFA's because

they were cold water animals.

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

[Guest guest]

My plan isn't neccessarily high in animal fat but the fat that is in it is high

quality and very high in vitamin content.  I'm not sure if it is the

cholesterol, the amount of saturated fat, or the vitamins and hormones that make

it important to get from fat.  I'm getting plenty of hormones and vitamins.  The

fclo/butter oil is high in a/d/k2/and quinones.  I would have to eat atleast 4X

more dairy to get the same amounts.  The liver is also high in cholesterol,a,

and has some d in it.  I may need to up my vitamin D intake too.  I may not be

getting enough saturated fat or cholesterol.  However my activity level and the

conditions I live in aren't nearly as physically stressful as those tribes so I

may not need as much fat.  They work in the hot sun which takes

much more energy.  If anything though I might decrease my protein, carbs, and

increase my fat intake.

From: jeremyfox <jeremytfox@...>

Subject: Re: Unheated Hydrolyzed whey protein

Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 8:51 PM

--- In , Holt <danthemanholt@ ...>

wrote:

>

> Are there any NT books that are respectable and talk about how people thrive

on low

fat, low-moderate protein, and high (50-60% range) carbs, with all the food

properly

prepared and much of it fermented?

Chapter 9 of Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration contains a survey of

the African

groups Price visited. He is clear that the groups eating animal products were

better

developed physically:

" The lowest percentage of irregularity occurred in the tribes living verly

largely on dairy

products and marine life. For example, among the Masai living on milk, blood and

meat,

only 3.4% had irregularities. Among the Kikuyu and Wakamba, 18.2 and 18.9 per

cent

respectively had irregularities. These people were largely agriculturists living

on vegetable

foods. "

Price's interpretation is that these groups were not getting their vitamins. He

is not in

favor of a low-carb diet; his favorite mountain Swiss ate a lot of rye in

addition to full-fat

dairy.

Chapter 14 talks about Indians from Peru, who do well on fish, animals, eggs,

plants, fruit

and particularly yucca, which is like our potato.

I cannot completely answer your question, but Price lists evidence of healthy

groups eating

lots of carbs but also lots of animal products.

[Guest guest]

,

> People in warmer climates or seasons of the year eat more plant foods

> because such

> foods are more available. This " Bible Life " / pro-Weston Price site that

> advocates a high fat

> diet claims the Hunza ate a lot of dairy products in the winter, and that

> the diet by calorie

> terms was high in fat throughout the year. They did eat a lot of plant

> foods, especially in

> the summer. The site claims that the Hunza should not be used as a model of

> health.

Personally, I don't think there is one model diet. I have always

contended that people who **must** eat low carb, for example, are on a

medical diet, not the ideal diet for all mankind.

You can't draw a specific dietary model from the work of Weston Price.

He disclaimed such a notion. A healthy body should be able to handle

any properly construed macro nutrient dietary model, if not then that

person will of necessity make necessary changes, but that doesn't mean

the adopted **therapeutic** diet is the ideal diet, it just means that

person has less than ideal health.

> http://www.biblelife.org/hunza.htm

Some of their stuff is interesting, and some of their stuff, IMO, is piss poor.

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

[Guest guest]

,

> Calorie restriction is an interesting field of research. Most species

> seem to have their lives extended, some time by a factor of 3!

>

> Within this field, the focus has been on genes that get turned on when

> calories are restricted. I don't enough about it to have an opinion.

> But I do know the Dr. Howell's work with enzymes would seem to

> indicate that you can extend your life by eating more enzymes rather

> than having your body synthesize them.

>

> There is a saying, " you can starve a horse faster feeding is straw

> than nothing at all " .

>

> Digestion is a physiologically expensive process.

Which is why many people are embracing intermittent fasting so as to

get the benefits of CR without the disadvantages.

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

[Guest guest]

,

> They would go some

> days without eating anything.

There are people who do that today, including bodybuilders. It is

called Intermittent Fasting.

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

[Guest guest]

I have not come across that.  Tell me more about it.  I was going to fast once a

week, on Sundays.  The day I spend preparing all my food for the whole week. 

Ghandi recommends it.

From: <slethnobotanist@...>

Subject: Re: Re: Unheated Hydrolyzed whey protein

Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 9:39 PM

,

> They would go some

> days without eating anything.

There are people who do that today, including bodybuilders. It is

called Intermittent Fasting.

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> You should read the entire thread all

> the way through. It may challenge you in some ways as to your current

> post workout approach.

Unfortunately I don't have the link for the entire thread where lots

of other bodybuilders were chiming in with great results they were

having as result of IF. Will look for it tomorrow and post it then.

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

[Guest guest]

,

> As for fat types, I would be very careful about how many

> polyunsaturated fats you consume. The recommendation from WAPF is to

> limit total intake to 4% of total calories and the ratio of omega 6 to

> omega 3 should be roughly 1:1-2.5:1 range.

WAPF has never provided a reference for where they got that figure.

You can find a good analysis of the PUFA issue here:

http://www.wolfrivernaturals.com/chris-masterjohn-special-reports.htm#pufa

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

[Guest guest]

Guys, Check out this hydrolyzed protein powder. Very impressive.

http://www.asn-nutrition.com/hp100.htm

I might just go with that one. I still retains all the immune factors

in it.

Thank You,

Holt

[Guest guest]

I'd wonder about the nano technology used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoparticle#Safety_Issues

--- In , " Holt " <danthemanholt@...>

wrote:

>

> Guys, Check out this hydrolyzed protein powder. Very impressive.

>

> http://www.asn-nutrition.com/hp100.htm

>

> I might just go with that one. I still retains all the immune factors

> in it.

>

> Thank You,

> Holt

>

[Guest guest]

> I fast twice a week because

> it is part of my spiritual tradition and thus I am not fasting for

> physical reasons (although reaping the spiritual benefits).

That should read... " although reaping the ***physical*** benefits. "

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

[Guest guest]

,

> Are there any NT books that are respectable and talk about how people thrive

> on low fat, low-moderate protein, and high (50-60% range) carbs, with all

> the food properly prepared and much of it fermented?

Again, I would like to see the evidence of any group that ate a

fermented high carb diet that wasn't based on bread. It may be true

but I'm drawing a blank. You can google the groups I mentioned above

and find lots of information.

<snip>

> I would have guessed the ratio would be 80% sat fat, 16% mono/miscellaneous

> fat,

> And 4% poly fat.

>

> Here's my planned fat intake

>

> High vitamin butter oil 1/2tspn

> Fermented Cod Liver oil 1/2 tspn

> Black Currant Seed Oil 1 g

> EPA/DHA 1.2g

> 84g natto once a week

> 1 cup raw milk

> 3oz pastured raw Liver

> 1/2 cup sprouted whole oats

> 1 oz Raw cheese or curds

> 1 tbl Raw butter

> 1/4 oz macadamia nuts (sprouted?)

> 1 grass fed free range egg

> 1 oz coconut shavings

> And 1 oz oysters

This is a lot of micromanagement and not really a part of the

traditional lifestyle diets you are drawing your information from.

Unless you are plan on being a competitive bodybuilder I would think

you could achieve your goals being far less strict on the exact

ratios.

> This all comes out to about 74g of fat, 43 of which is saturated. 28 g is

> mono and miscellaneous, and 3g are polyunsaturated. You think I should add

> some fat? I guess I could make the rest of it Pemmican. Can I find some good

> quality for cheap or would I need to make it myself from organic pastures

> meat? I have about 180g of protein and 310g of carbs. Do I need to change

> this ratio?

Since no traditional group practiced modern bodybuilding, this is

something you are going to have to test out on yourself. You certainly

appear to be eating enough protein to support a body weight of 180

pounds. As for the pemmican you probably need to make it yourself

although US Wellness Meats sells what looks like the real deal. You

might inquire as to the process, source and ratios. If you need a link

on how to make your own pemmican let me know. It certainly would be

cheaper.

--

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired

signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are

not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is

not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,

the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…. Under the

cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of

iron. "

~ Dwight Eisenhower

[Guest guest]

There's a couple different recipes I found from www.onibasu.com and from

Nourishing Traditions. Is there a particular recipe that is the healthiest? I

was going to use 4 pounds fat free beef round, 1 pound pasture raised beef suet,

culture the pasture raised beef round in kefir and himilayan seasalt, and do the

rest of the prep work. I even considered using beef heart instead for co-q10

content.-If you need a link

on how to make your own pemmican let me know. It certainly would be

cheaper- Thank you, Holt