Re: Re: are vegetables healthy?

March 2, 2009

Do these authors provide evidence that you can completely go without any carbs?

Does your body learn to more efficient in it's ability to convert to glucose.

Barry Grives gives a very basic explanation and does not present any science

with fat to carb conversion. I have heard that fat is converted to ketones

however based on research I have looked there are some parts of the body that

cannot utilize ketones as fuel. Does the body learn how to convert fat

completely to glucose efficiently. Our paleolythic ancestors got their carbs

from fresh meat some 40,000 years ago. They most have chosen to keep in most of

their energy most of the time and only use it when they had to, fight or flight.

I personally doubt potatoes deplete that much in vitamin C stores. Barry Groves

had charts that showed that 100g of starches such as potatoes didn't have nearly

as bad an impact on the immune system compared to other types of carbs. 15%

decrease vs. 50% decrease. I would realistically be having 30g of starches with

each meal. My meal plan would be 40g carbs in the morning. 35g carbs

inevening. 25g carbs at night. However, you have to cook potatoes in order to

consume them. This destroys digestive enzymes. In this case you may want to

have a fermented beverage such as beet kvass with that meal. Or maybe have a

predigested starch such as Berlin sourdough spelt bread which is yeast free. Do

you have the recipe for acid porrige?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 1, 2009, at 8:58 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

In Fat of the Land, Steffenson says the first nations people didn't

consider fruits and vegetables " proper human food " . But of course we

don't know very much about the life expectancy or overall health of

these people. Although most reports indicated that without the

presence of " modern foods of commerce " , they were very healthy and

lived long lives. But we don't have health or longevity data that

meets modern standards of rigor.

Taubes in Good Calorie, Bad Calorie makes a strong case against

carbs. Most vegetables are mostly carbs. I would recommend you read

this book.

I would say the answer really depends on a couple of factors. If you

have a hard time controlling your weight, I would recommend a low-carb

diet to see if that helps. Many popular vegetables are high in carbs.

Taubes talks about some people who are so sensitive to carbs that

eating a single apple in a low-carb diet can stop their weight loss.

But of course this is an extreme example.

Also keep in mind that is appears that carbs increase our requirements

for certain vitamins like the Bs and C so it's important to realize

that if you are eating starchy veggies for the vitamins, that the

carbs themselves are an anti-nutrient of sorts.

The other concern I have about anything from the vegetable kingdom is

genistein. All plants contain sterols which are hormones. Some are

similar to estrogen, like genistein. Many plants CAN contain genistein

and some have rather high quantities. But there has not been a lot of

testing, although because of recent interest in genistein, more is

being published all the time. The reason I say " can " is that the

levels seem to vary by species, variety, crop, field, season, etc.

After soy, my next concern is peanuts. Some studies list 0 genistein

and other list amount equal to soy so I don't know what to believe

about peanuts. But I would avoid all legumes--yet another reason not

to be a vegetarian.

In my opinion humans are faunivores and the preferred food of most

humans throughout history has been meat. Grains, fruits and vegetables

are eaten for three main reasons: 1-sometimes they're all we have,

2-they taste delicious, and 3-carbs stimulate the appetite so that we

can have " cravings " for them. Even in modern times when a culture

becomes more affluent it usually increases it's consumption of meat.

I wouldn't worry to much about veggies. I would make sure you're

getting the big things right first. Pastured meats and eggs, raw

fermented dairy (fresh milk is high in carbs, is non-traditional and

is on our list of compromise foods).

Veggies do have lots of beneficial nutrients, taste delicious,

complement main foods like meat, eggs and dairy. But I would eat them

in moderation.

--- In , " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...>

wrote:

>

> > hi all,

> >

> > i am just wondering how many i actually need in my diet? w/ talk of

> > anti-nutrients and food chemicals, plus the fact that I am trying to

> > eat locally, i just wonder which ones to eat and how much. I am also

> > totally revamping my diet to go gluten free and possibly casein free

> > and low grain, so what to eat? living in colorado, the only local

> > veggies I have right now are beets, onions, potatoes, turnips and

> > carrots

>

> I really like the Polish Dr. Kwasniewski, and he says minimal carbs

> from root veg are the best. So you are doing great for this time of

> year. His ammounts are, at most, take your ideal weight in pounds,

> times .8 and that is grams of carb per day. Starch is best.

>

> He says leafy veg are okay if you like animal fodder. This is why I

> like this plan.

>

> But you do have to have lots of sat fat to help with the glucose too.

>

March 2, 2009

perhaps that was more due to the milk?

Re: are vegetables healthy?

Just to chime in, in the book " Potato " about the rise of potatoes as

a food crop, it said that the Irish lived off mainly potatoes and

milk and many of those who visited the country remarked on the

squalor of the living conditions, as they didn't have enough land to

support themselves very well, but also the extreme health and beauty

of the Irish as a people.

> >

> > > hi all,

> > >

> > > i am just wondering how many i actually need in my diet? w/

talk of

> > > anti-nutrients and food chemicals, plus the fact that I am

trying to

> > > eat locally, i just wonder which ones to eat and how much. I am

also

> > > totally revamping my diet to go gluten free and possibly casein

free

> > > and low grain, so what to eat? living in colorado, the only

local

> > > veggies I have right now are beets, onions, potatoes, turnips

and

> > > carrots

> >

> > I really like the Polish Dr. Kwasniewski, and he says minimal

carbs

> > from root veg are the best. So you are doing great for this time

of

> > year. His ammounts are, at most, take your ideal weight in

pounds,

> > times .8 and that is grams of carb per day. Starch is best.

> >

> > He says leafy veg are okay if you like animal fodder. This is why

I

> > like this plan.

> >

> > But you do have to have lots of sat fat to help with the glucose

too.

> >

>

March 2, 2009

So basicly you need only a small amount of carbs. They will metabolize as

glycogen stores and any extra will be converted to fat. It would be useless to

eat excess carbs before a workout because it has not digested yet and will not

be utilized as energy. It would also weaken one's performance to work out right

after eating. The goal is to focus on high intensity, going to failure, and

getting more done in a short period of time rather than doing higher volume

anaerobic work. Spend only 45 minutes at the most doing this activity,

preferably 10-25 minutes. You would want to eat immediatly after words to

replenish glycogen stores. Preferably a starch as it converts directly to

glucose.

I am guessing our paleolythic ancestors were more methodical with their hunting

and seldom used up much energy as they weren't taking in a high carb intake.

They either got their carbs from animal flesh I'd from fresh berries, bananas,

pineapples, etc. Foods that did not involve cooking. They must not have had

any vegetable. Notice that fruits in nature such as apples and bananas do not

exceed 30g of carbs. I wonder if there is any relevance to this.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2009, at 8:44 AM, " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

>

> Do these authors provide evidence that you can completely go

without any carbs? Does your body learn to more efficient in it's

ability to convert to glucose.

The fact that you can't go without glucose, but you can go without

carbs maybe depending on what you eat - that is more of a basic

physiology thing. Just Google Images " metabolism krebs cycle " and

you'll find all kinds of explanations.

here's just one

http://images.google.com/imgres?

imgurl= & i

mgrefurl=http://www.bmb.leeds.ac.uk/teaching/icu3/lecture/14/index.htm

& usg=___ZUD2zXJ0NLkXhxCy58crVMXSOE= & h=500 & w=500 & sz=11 & hl=en & start=13 & t

bnid=cn6eCNbElU2u_M: & tbnh=130 & tbnw=130 & prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkrebs%

2Bcycle%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dstrict%26client%3Ddell-usuk%

26channel%3Dus%26ad%3Dw5

March 2, 2009

I don't know... If you listen to some of the anti-carb people it makes it

sound as if the carbs themselves cause disease and in that case I don't

think any amount of milk would make up for it.

I, for one, do fantastically on a carb (predominantly starch) containing

diet, perhaps not as much as the USDA recommends, but when I low carbed I

got very ill. I honestly question the usefulness of the low carb diet for

those who are not trying to lose weight.

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 10:22 AM, <sarahlyao@...> wrote:

> perhaps that was more due to the milk?

>

> Re: are vegetables healthy?

>

> Just to chime in, in the book " Potato " about the rise of potatoes as

> a food crop, it said that the Irish lived off mainly potatoes and

> milk and many of those who visited the country remarked on the

> squalor of the living conditions, as they didn't have enough land to

> support themselves very well, but also the extreme health and beauty

> of the Irish as a people.

>

March 2, 2009

How many carbs do you generally have in a day. I have a good percentage of

Irish in me and take more after that side of the family. I was reading that

groups of people that have consumed milk for over 500 generations developed a

better digestion for it.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2009, at 1:47 PM, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

I don't know... If you listen to some of the anti-carb people it makes it

sound as if the carbs themselves cause disease and in that case I don't

think any amount of milk would make up for it.

I, for one, do fantastically on a carb (predominantly starch) containing

diet, perhaps not as much as the USDA recommends, but when I low carbed I

got very ill. I honestly question the usefulness of the low carb diet for

those who are not trying to lose weight.

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 10:22 AM, <sarahlyao@...> wrote:

> perhaps that was more due to the milk?

>

> Re: are vegetables healthy?

>

> Just to chime in, in the book " Potato " about the rise of potatoes as

> a food crop, it said that the Irish lived off mainly potatoes and

> milk and many of those who visited the country remarked on the

> squalor of the living conditions, as they didn't have enough land to

> support themselves very well, but also the extreme health and beauty

> of the Irish as a people.

>

March 2, 2009

I think it really has to do with one's heritage.

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Holt <danthemanholt@...> wrote:

> How many carbs do you generally have in a day. I have a good percentage

> of Irish in me and take more after that side of the family. I was reading

> that groups of people that have consumed milk for over 500 generations

> developed a better digestion for it.

>

> S

> .

>

--

-Anne

March 2, 2009

Our bodies aren't the best equipped to digest plant carbs. Just look at the

difference between our stomachs compared to ruminant animals such as cows.

Carbs deplete vitamins and minerals from the body. Starches such as potatoes do

the least amount to weaken the immune system.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2009, at 3:35 PM, " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> I don't know... If you listen to

> some of the anti-carb people it makes it

> sound as if the carbs themselves cause disease

That's a good point - I must myself be careful to say, excess refined

carbs are the problem

> perhaps not as much as the USDA recommends

Yes, the definition of " low carb " is all over the place.

Is less than the USDA, low carb?

I see a growing presence in the blogosphere about lower carb for

general health and longevity especially.

Mark Sissons is a good example. He recently published a hilarious

article with pictures over the years, laughing at himself in an 80s

speedo. He talks about the metabolic " cost " of the high starch diet

being expensive for some people. He uses low carb for general

health, not fat loss on 100-120 g a day.

Body Composition Through the Years

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/body-composition-how-diet-and-exercise-

affect-muscle-mass-and-body-fat/

March 3, 2009

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Holt <danthemanholt@...> wrote:

> How many carbs do you generally have in a day. I have a good percentage of

> Irish in me and take more after that side of the family. I was reading that

> groups of people that have consumed milk for over 500 generations developed

> a better digestion for it.

I too have a good percentage of Irish. I eat around 200g/day.

Sometimes as low as 150g, sometimes as much as the USDA (300g), but very

rarely more than that. Most of that is good old starch - predominantly from

whole grains but also legumes and tubers. I eat very little sugar, with the

exception of the lactose in milk. I don't eat much fruit either, at least

not fruit with any significant sugar content (mmm avocado).

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 4:35 PM, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> > perhaps not as much as the USDA recommends

>

> Yes, the definition of " low carb " is all over the place.

> Is less than the USDA, low carb?

>

AFAIK, " low " carb is 60g/day or less (as low as 20g/day for those starting

Atkins). The point of low carb is to be in ketosis, at least to me. I

don't do well in ketosis at all. I would call what I do " moderate " carb,

and anything over the USDA " excess " carb.

-Lana

March 3, 2009

Is there gluten in oats? What foods contain gluten?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:13 PM, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Holt <danthemanholt@...> wrote:

> How many carbs do you generally have in a day. I have a good percentage of

> Irish in me and take more after that side of the family. I was reading that

> groups of people that have consumed milk for over 500 generations developed

> a better digestion for it.

I too have a good percentage of Irish. I eat around 200g/day.

Sometimes as low as 150g, sometimes as much as the USDA (300g), but very

rarely more than that. Most of that is good old starch - predominantly from

whole grains but also legumes and tubers. I eat very little sugar, with the

exception of the lactose in milk. I don't eat much fruit either, at least

not fruit with any significant sugar content (mmm avocado).

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 4:35 PM, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> > perhaps not as much as the USDA recommends

>

> Yes, the definition of " low carb " is all over the place.

> Is less than the USDA, low carb?

>

AFAIK, " low " carb is 60g/day or less (as low as 20g/day for those starting

Atkins). The point of low carb is to be in ketosis, at least to me. I

don't do well in ketosis at all. I would call what I do " moderate " carb,

and anything over the USDA " excess " carb.

-Lana

March 3, 2009

>Our bodies aren't the best equipped to digest plant carbs. Just look at the

>difference between our stomachs compared to ruminant animals such as >cows.

Carbs deplete vitamins and minerals from the body. Starches such >as potatoes do

the least amount to weaken the immune system.

well this might explain why i have been feeling under the weather in the last

week or so...the first time in i don't know how long! i haven't been sick in

ages! i went from eating high fat, moderate protein--mostly meats, and low

carbs--just potatoes, very little fruit, to eating that plus some vegetables and

more fruits and sugar in things like ice cream and commercial apple sauce. but i

am pregnant and i guess i feel obligated plus for whatever reason i am craving

more sweet and carby. i have even eaten rice pasta more in the last 2 weeks than

i have in 3 years! i don't know why i am finding it difficult to eat this

pregnancy.

it's hard for me to believe pregnant women *need* all the vegetables and

grains and fruit that most people preach. sometimes i start to feel pressured

into eating things b/c it sounds somewhat convincing.

amanda

March 3, 2009

I had the same thing happen when I was pregnant (re: ice cream and fruit).

I think it was who pointed out to me that the gestating body has a

higher carb requirement. I didn't have any ill effects from it though

(but I tend to stick to berries when I eat fruit - fructose and I don't

agree and apples are pretty high in it, and when I'd get commercial ice

cream it was Breyer's natural only so no HFCS).

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 5:39 PM, <amanda@...>wrote:

> well this might explain why i have been feeling under the weather in the

> last week or so...the first time in i don't know how long! i haven't been

> sick in ages! i went from eating high fat, moderate protein--mostly meats,

> and low carbs--just potatoes, very little fruit, to eating that plus some

> vegetables and more fruits and sugar in things like ice cream and commercial

> apple sauce. but i am pregnant and i guess i feel obligated plus for

> whatever reason i am craving more sweet and carby. i have even eaten rice

> pasta more in the last 2 weeks than i have in 3 years! i don't know why i am

> finding it difficult to eat this pregnancy.

>

> it's hard for me to believe pregnant women *need* all the vegetables and

> grains and fruit that most people preach. sometimes i start to feel

> pressured into eating things b/c it sounds somewhat convincing.

>

> amanda

March 3, 2009

Yeah, I've heard of a few dietary guidelines women should follow run pregnant

but some of them conflict. Here are a couple principles you can't go wrong

with.

Have 10,000 IU of vitamins A a day from animal flesh.

Have atleast 1000 IU of Vit D from animal flesh a day.

Have mostly fat, preferably from pastures grassfed egg yolks, extravirgin

coconut oil, beef liver/dessicated live, cooking food in beef tallow/suet, raw

dairy such as butter, cheese and milk, and raw colostrum if you have access.

Don't exceed 1 fruit a day. Kiwi fruit is an exception because it is very low

in calories, this and pineapple are my favorite fruits. Cooked vegetables are

good. You can have more because they are low in carbs. You can have more carbs

as starches because they don't have as much as a negative impact on the immune

system. You probably don't need nuts if you are getting all those fat and

protein sources. Macademia nuts and apples are a good source of b15,17. I

could go on but these are some good principals to follow.

www.westonaprice.org has more guidelines.

I guess Iodine/Iodide intake are an issue but I personally argue with the

different recommendations. My guess is if you can get highly bioavailable

sources such as sun dried Celtic seasalt and fish, raw milk, various parts of

the chicken, you don't need as much. These ones store long in the body. I

don't know what WAPF's recommendation for intake is.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:39 PM, " " <amanda@...> wrote: