Re: Re: Should We Stop Drinking Milk? Part Two

[Guest guest]

Is milk still considered a compromise food if it is cultured with kefir? What

about clabbered raw milk? What about clabbered or kefired raw colostrum? Or

just raw colostrum?

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 1, 2009, at 9:15 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

Carolyn,

realmilk.com has the most comprehensive collection of material about

milk that I've found on the web.

The safety issue is total bullshit if the raw milk is produced by a

knowledgeable and dedicated producer trying to produce safe raw

drinking milk. Raw fruits and veggies and deli meats are far more

dangerous, but there are no laws banning their interstate commerce, or

public health officials warning that we should never eat them because

they are " inherently " dangerous. Or if there is a disease outbreak,

they don't immediately try to ban all sales of fruits/veggies/deli

meats. So there is a real double standard.

99+% of the raw milk produced in the US is intended to be pasteurized

and is much more likely to be contaminated as a result. Although keep

in mind that many conventional dairy producers drink their own raw

milk and never get sick. But they've built up their immune systems

over the years to resist the pathogens in their milk. Also never

forget that conventional dairy producers, not raw drinking milk

producers, are the ones that use confinement, soy and Posilac and put

water in their bulk tank to increase weight and bleach in their bulk

tanks to reduce their baacteria count both to cheat the system. The

attitude and approach that a producer takes makes all the difference.

Also keep in mind that drinking fresh milk is a recent phenomena only

made possible by modern refrigeration technology. Milk has

traditionally been consumed in fermented forms like cheese, kefir,

yogurt, curds and whey, etc. Fermenting milk makes it easier to digest

and increases it's nutritional content. This is why we list fresh

milk, even raw, as a compromise food that should be limited. I

personally find fresh milk constipating, but homemade kefir is not.

Cheers,

>

> http://tinyurl.com/bz7u3n

>

> After reading the arguments against consuming milk and dairy products

> in part one, you may be feeling a little confused as to whether or

> not you should be drinking milk!

>

> Carolyn

> Madison, WI

>

>

[Guest guest]

The lactose in milk may weaken the immune system and deplete digestive enzyme

stores over time. While this is not a big deal if you are having a cup a day I

want to spare my immune system as much as possible. 12g of carbs would deplete

the immune system by 5% but like gluten, it may do other subtle harmful things.

Only to an extremist such as myself would this concern. Kefir answers this

question. It's not normal for any species to drink milk in their adulthood,

especially from

Other animals. While we have adapted based on the negative effect most sugars

have on us as it is still not optimal. It's the subtle difference from eating

raw meat and eating cooked rare meat.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2009, at 8:33 AM, " carolyn_graff " <zgraff@...> wrote:

I wouldn't consider any of these compromise foods. Enjoy!

>

> Is milk still considered a compromise food if it is cultured with kefir? What

about

clabbered raw milk? What about clabbered or kefired raw colostrum? Or just raw

colostrum?

>

[Guest guest]

There are many benefits to raw milk. It is an excellent source of calcium and

magnesium. Some cultures have not adapted to digesting milk. Kefir should take

care of this but it does not taste good. 1-6 cups a day would do a world of

good.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Bradley <rachstuff@...> wrote:

I agree with Tom's thinking. It just doesn't make sense that families

with animals they milked once or twice a day wouldn't drink all they

wanted fresh and then make cheese and other cultured products with the

excess. Is WAP/Campaign for Real Milk now saying that fresh milk is a

" compromise food " ? That is news to me, so maybe another school of

thought is being discussed.

B.

> Traditional cultures that kept herds of cattle or other milk-bearing

> animals did not need refrigeration to keep their milk from going sour

> because they likely milked the animals every day. Do you know of any

> traditional cultures that did not drink the milk straight? I could

> understand seasonal variations in fresh milk consumption, e.g. in

> winter or whenever the animals were not lactating, but it's hard to

> believe they would avoid drinking delicious fresh milk when available.

>

> Tom

[Guest guest]

,

> There are many benefits to raw milk. It is an excellent source of calcium

> and magnesium. Some cultures have not adapted to digesting milk. Kefir

> should take care of this but it does not taste good. 1-6 cups a day would do

> a world of good.

I love the taste of kefir, which by the way can be legitimately

pronounced three different ways:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kefir

I used to pronounce it \ke-ˈfir;

then someone a few years back told me it was pronounced ˈkē-fər,

and then on a hunch decided to check it out and found that my original

pronunciation was correct, so was the second, and that there was even

a third way to pronounce the word -ˈke-fər\

--

It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

- Ferriss

[Guest guest]

B,

> I agree with Tom's thinking. It just doesn't make sense that families

> with animals they milked once or twice a day wouldn't drink all they

> wanted fresh and then make cheese and other cultured products with the

> excess. Is WAP/Campaign for Real Milk now saying that fresh milk is a

> " compromise food " ? That is news to me, so maybe another school of

> thought is being discussed.

Yes traditional cultures did drink warm fresh milk and what they

stored the excess via fermentation (the Masai for example, who would

milk directly into fermenting urns). Also in the east they boiled it

as well and you still find this being recommended in Ayurvedic circles

as better than stored unfermented cold raw milk.

The difference today is that we drink unfermented milk from cold

storage. No question that is a fairly new practice.

--

It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

- Ferriss

[Guest guest]

Milk has a beautiful sweet taste that kefir ruins by souring it. Yech!

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 2, 2009, at 9:08 PM, " carolyn_graff " <zgraff@...> wrote:

I think kefir tastes great!

>

> I agree with Tom's thinking. It just doesn't make sense that families

> with animals they milked once or twice a day wouldn't drink all they

> wanted fresh and then make cheese and other cultured products with the

> excess. Is WAP/Campaign for Real Milk now saying that fresh milk is a

> " compromise food " ? That is news to me, so maybe another school of

> thought is being discussed.

>

> B.

>

> > Traditional cultures that kept herds of cattle or other milk-bearing

> > animals did not need refrigeration to keep their milk from going sour

> > because they likely milked the animals every day. Do you know of any

> > traditional cultures that did not drink the milk straight? I could

> > understand seasonal variations in fresh milk consumption, e.g. in

> > winter or whenever the animals were not lactating, but it's hard to

> > believe they would avoid drinking delicious fresh milk when available.

> >

> > Tom

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

See I don't completely buy this. There were many ways of keeping milk

fresh equivalent to refrigeration prior to the modern refrigerator.

Among these are root cellars, ice boxes, and most predominantly (because

I know for sure this was commonly done) spring houses.

When I am in a glut of spring milk (from my cows) I drink way more than

I ever did when buying from the store. Judging by my customers most

don't drink very much fresh milk at all, far less than a typically dairy

family does.

I suspect that traditionally more fermented milk products were ate than

now, they still drank as much or more fresh milk than we do.

Pete

paulsonntagericson wrote:

>

> Tom,

>

> Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is

> easier to digest and more nutritious.

>

> Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a culture

> of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

>

> There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. It

> just shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you will

> deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

>

> Cheers,

>

>

>

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > > So if you look at the total volume of dairy produced and consumed,

> > > the majority was consumed fermented just out of circumstance, not

> > > any principle that fresh milk is a compromise food.

> > >...

> > > For us, fresh milk is a compromise food...

> >

> > You're really contradicting yourself here.

> >

> >

> > > Plus it's not like everyone gathered around the cow during

> milking. > People were out all day herding and working on crops so

> most people > probably weren't around to get fresh milk.

> >

> > Milk that sits out 8 or 12 hours at air temperature is will still be

> fresh unless it's extremely hot out and there's no cool storage.

> >

> >

> > > For us, fresh milk is a compromise food because modern

> > > refrigeration allows us to consume 100% fresh milk which was rarely

> > > the case in traditional cultures. The classification is only trying

> > > to ensure you eat some fermented dairy instead of all fresh.

> >

> > Then why call fresh milk a " compromise food " ? Your only argument

> seems to be to drink fresh milk in moderation, which could be said

> about almost any food.

> >

> > A second point: after 7-10 days in the fridge, my raw milk is about

> half sour. After 2-3 weeks it is extremely sour, probably containing

> an insignificant amount of lactose. Refrigeration does not stop but

> merely slows the fermentation process.

> >

> >

> > > Plus fermented dairy is substantially easier to digest and higher

> > > in many nutrients so it's better for you. Fresh milk is high in

> > > carbs too. And as I said before I don't tolerate fresh milk well,

> > > but fermented milk is fine.

> >

> > And I tolerate fresh milk perfectly; anecdoctal experience doesn't

> necessarily mean much.

> >

> > For those without lactose intolerance or galactosemia, the sugar in

> milk is healthy compared to fructose or sucrose (a disaccharide of

> glucose and fructose). Lactose is a disaccharide of glucose and

> galactose, both of which go through the normal glucose metabolism

> pathway (unlike fructose, which bypasses regulation and leads to

> problems). Furthermore, raw milk contains the lactase enzyme, so the

> actual load on the body's enzymatic machinery is likely not major.

> >

> > Tom

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I personally think compromise foods should be anything a good portion of the

world's population can't perfectly digest. Milk would be one of them, even

kefir milk for some.

It has so many good things in it, a, d, calcium, magnesium, good fat profile,

growth and immune factors. You name it. Gluten containing foods should be on

the list too.

I wonder though why some people have an allergy to shellfish? Anybody know?

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 6, 2009, at 4:44 PM, " Tom Jeanne " <tjeanne@...> wrote:

,

> Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is > easier

to digest and more nutritious.

By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world is a

" compromise food " .

> Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that our

culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

> There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It just

shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese, kefir,

yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

Tom

[Guest guest]

Even if you adapt to a food doesn't mean you thrive on it. You can have a minor

allergy and not even really be aware, as most people aren't.

Raw milk, gluten foods, modern fruits (may have better luck with biodynamic or

organic), shellfish, and soy are the primary foods people may have allergies to

even after being fermented, grains, legumes, soaked, sprouted, fried, and

kefired. The human body has not totally adapted to it. People may not notice

until they have a huge amount of that food.

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 6, 2009, at 8:36 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

The point of the food categories, as I understand them, is to highlight which

foods, across many cultures are traditional and which are somehow compromised.

It's not attempting to define the ideal human diet as that in many ways is a

non-existent thing. Different ethnic groups have evolved different abilities to

assimilate certain foods and not others. Further, each individual has unique

abilities and inabilities to assimilate certain foods usually based on the

ability to produce or not produce certain enzymes. And even individuals

abilities to assimilate certain foods changes over time as both aging and

adaption can change said ability. The human body is amazingly adaptive.

Cheers,

>

> ,

>

> > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is > easier

to digest and more nutritious.

>

> By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world is

a " compromise food " .

>

> > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

>

> I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that

our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

>

> > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It just

shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

>

> I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

>

> Tom

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I kinda misplaced legumes and grains as not the best.

Anyways, the best foods people thrive on IMO are:

Cow meat, lamb meat, vegetables, nuts, root vegetables, and eggs. Cow because

it has a lot of fat on it.

Fish, chicken, goose, and buffalo are good too.

I don't know enough about pig. Is it still cancer causing if it has been given

the optimal feed and conditions?

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 6, 2009, at 8:50 PM, Holt <danthemanholt@...> wrote:

Even if you adapt to a food doesn't mean you thrive on it. You can have a minor

allergy and not even really be aware, as most people aren't.

Raw milk, gluten foods, modern fruits (may have better luck with biodynamic or

organic), shellfish, and soy are the primary foods people may have allergies to

even after being fermented, grains, legumes, soaked, sprouted, fried, and

kefired. The human body has not totally adapted to it. People may not notice

until they have a huge amount of that food.

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 6, 2009, at 8:36 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

The point of the food categories, as I understand them, is to highlight which

foods, across many cultures are traditional and which are somehow compromised.

It's not attempting to define the ideal human diet as that in many ways is a

non-existent thing. Different ethnic groups have evolved different abilities to

assimilate certain foods and not others. Further, each individual has unique

abilities and inabilities to assimilate certain foods usually based on the

ability to produce or not produce certain enzymes. And even individuals

abilities to assimilate certain foods changes over time as both aging and

adaption can change said ability. The human body is amazingly adaptive.

Cheers,

>

> ,

>

> > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is > easier

to digest and more nutritious.

>

> By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world is

a " compromise food " .

>

> > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

>

> I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that

our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

>

> > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It just

shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

>

> I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

>

> Tom

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Retired cows are slaughtered, usually for ground beef. In other

countries older beef is appreciated more for its flavor. Here the flavor

and toughness (due to genetics and slaughter practices) means most go to

ground product. Dairy cows which are slaughtered at higher rates than

normal due to the burnout rate on dairy cows. I want to say the dairy

cows mostly go to ground product, but I do know they somewhat go for

low-vale cut beef as well.

Heifers, steers, bulls, and cows are all used for meat. Since during

certain parts of the cattle cycle (building phase) more heifers are

retained for breeding more beef is from steers (which yield more than

heifers) than cows or heifers. In the down phase of the cattle cycle

(now), you'll see more cull cows and heifers being slaughtered. Rarely

are all beef heifers retained for breeding and most are sold as feeders.

Virtually all dairy heifers are retained for breeding due to the high

burnout rate and the fact dairymen make money milking while ranchers

make money selling beef animals.

paulsonntagericson wrote:

>

> So do ranchers keep all their cows? Or do they cull cow calves to

> favor steers? Dairy producers do the opposite which is where we get

> veal from (culled steer calves).

>

> What do ranchers do with all their retired cows? And what happens to

> all those worn out dairy cows? As I understand it, cows are usually

> ground into hamburger.

>

> Just curious...

>

>

>

>

> >

> >

> > > Cow meat,

> >

> > If you are looking for the correct term, the one ranchers use, it is

> BEEF. We typically don't even eat cows. We eat steers, which are male.

> Cattle ranchers say BEEF. Not that this tidbit will change the world

> or anything but I cringe every time I read COW.

> >

> > Joan

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

> I agree, I doubt that traditional people avoided fresh milk at all.

>

> I think the point is that as soon as the milk comes out, they start

> consuming it. The two " problems " from a " got milk " POV is that first the

> volume of milk produced probably exceeded their capacity to drink all of it

> fresh so this lead to the second " problem " --fermentation.

>

> So if you look at the total volume of dairy produced and consumed, the

> majority was consumed fermented just out of circumstance, not any principle

> that fresh milk is a compromise food. Plus it's not like everyone gathered

> around the cow during milking. People were out all day herding and working

> on crops so most people probably weren't around to get fresh milk.

>

> For us, fresh milk is a compromise food because modern refrigeration allows

> us to consume 100% fresh milk which was rarely the case in traditional

> cultures.

Milk straight from the cow is not the same thing as milk that has been

cooled and stored in your refrigerator for awhile. While I agree the

" refrigeration generation(s) " is probably the first generation to be

able to drink 100% raw milk, I don't think that is why fresh milk is

**potentially** a compromise food.

> The classification is only trying to ensure you eat some fermented

> dairy instead of all fresh.

I think you are speculating about the classification unless Sally has

told you otherwise. Listing fresh milk as a compromise food so as to

get people to eat fermented dairy seems kind of strange to me although

she may have done that originally even though fresh milk is no longer

in the compromise category. It would be interesting to know why she

changed the classification.

I think milk that has been stored even though it is un-fermented loses

its vitality over time. In that regard I don't think milk is different

from other fresh foods. Unless specially treated nutrients are lost

over time. In Ayurveda supposedly you can restore the vitality

somewhat with gentle heating. Bernard Jensen noted in his clinic there

was a world of difference in the healing power of milk that was less

than 4 hours old and anything stored beyond that. Somewhere buried in

these cyber-archives is something called kirlian photography, which

purports to measure the vitality of a food, showing the decrease over

time.

Cold storage versus fermentation wasn't an option for these groups

because refrigeration wasn't available, but long term cold storage

doesn't appear to be as good an option as immediately fermenting what

you can't drink.

> Plus fermented dairy is substantially easier to digest and higher in many

> nutrients so it's better for you. Fresh milk is high in carbs too.

There is that carb/paleo bias coming out again, but more about that in

another post :-)

--

It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

- Ferriss

[Guest guest]

,

> Allergies can pop up at any time. My grandmother grew up poor in New England

> and ate shell fish they dug themselves and then one day when was in her 30s,

> she suddenly became allergic.

Hmmmm...same thing happened to my mom and then to me, both when we

were in our 30's. The only shellfish I can eat now is raw oysters. If

they are cooked, forget it.

--

It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

- Ferriss