Re: Should We Stop Drinking Milk? Part Two

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,

realmilk.com has the most comprehensive collection of material about

milk that I've found on the web.

The safety issue is total bullshit if the raw milk is produced by a

knowledgeable and dedicated producer trying to produce safe raw

drinking milk. Raw fruits and veggies and deli meats are far more

dangerous, but there are no laws banning their interstate commerce, or

public health officials warning that we should never eat them because

they are " inherently " dangerous. Or if there is a disease outbreak,

they don't immediately try to ban all sales of fruits/veggies/deli

meats. So there is a real double standard.

99+% of the raw milk produced in the US is intended to be pasteurized

and is much more likely to be contaminated as a result. Although keep

in mind that many conventional dairy producers drink their own raw

milk and never get sick. But they've built up their immune systems

over the years to resist the pathogens in their milk. Also never

forget that conventional dairy producers, not raw drinking milk

producers, are the ones that use confinement, soy and Posilac and put

water in their bulk tank to increase weight and bleach in their bulk

tanks to reduce their baacteria count both to cheat the system. The

attitude and approach that a producer takes makes all the difference.

Also keep in mind that drinking fresh milk is a recent phenomena only

made possible by modern refrigeration technology. Milk has

traditionally been consumed in fermented forms like cheese, kefir,

yogurt, curds and whey, etc. Fermenting milk makes it easier to digest

and increases it's nutritional content. This is why we list fresh

milk, even raw, as a compromise food that should be limited. I

personally find fresh milk constipating, but homemade kefir is not.

Cheers,

>

> http://tinyurl.com/bz7u3n

>

> After reading the arguments against consuming milk and dairy products

> in part one, you may be feeling a little confused as to whether or

> not you should be drinking milk!

>

> Carolyn

> Madison, WI

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

> Also keep in mind that drinking fresh milk is a recent phenomena only

> made possible by modern refrigeration technology. Milk has

> traditionally been consumed in fermented forms like cheese, kefir,

> yogurt, curds and whey, etc. Fermenting milk makes it easier to digest

> and increases it's nutritional content. This is why we list fresh

> milk, even raw, as a compromise food that should be limited. I

> personally find fresh milk constipating, but homemade kefir is not.

Traditional cultures that kept herds of cattle or other milk-bearing

animals did not need refrigeration to keep their milk from going sour

because they likely milked the animals every day. Do you know of any

traditional cultures that did not drink the milk straight? I could

understand seasonal variations in fresh milk consumption, e.g. in

winter or whenever the animals were not lactating, but it's hard to

believe they would avoid drinking delicious fresh milk when available.

Tom

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't consider any of these compromise foods. Enjoy!

>

> Is milk still considered a compromise food if it is cultured with kefir? What

about

clabbered raw milk? What about clabbered or kefired raw colostrum? Or just raw

colostrum?

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with Tom's thinking. It just doesn't make sense that families

with animals they milked once or twice a day wouldn't drink all they

wanted fresh and then make cheese and other cultured products with the

excess. Is WAP/Campaign for Real Milk now saying that fresh milk is a

" compromise food " ? That is news to me, so maybe another school of

thought is being discussed.

B.

> Traditional cultures that kept herds of cattle or other milk-bearing

> animals did not need refrigeration to keep their milk from going sour

> because they likely milked the animals every day. Do you know of any

> traditional cultures that did not drink the milk straight? I could

> understand seasonal variations in fresh milk consumption, e.g. in

> winter or whenever the animals were not lactating, but it's hard to

> believe they would avoid drinking delicious fresh milk when available.

>

> Tom

[Guest guest]

<<<It's not normal for any species to drink milk in their adulthood,

especially from

Other animals. While we have adapted based on the negative effect most

sugars have on us as it is still not optimal. It's the subtle difference

from eating raw meat and eating cooked rare meat.>>>

I am wondering if you take the book The Paleolithic Diet or something

similar as your bottom line for all heath issues? I wonder if referring

only to stone age hunters and gatherers as the epitomy of health and

everything evolved since then as a downgrade- since we are not adapted

to it - as a reasonable assumption. I don't think it is, anyway, but it

seems to underly most of your posts. Am I correct that that is your

ideal? I do appreciate that you realise you are an extremist Is

" native nutrition " only that which existed before humans were at all

domesticated, as in, before the last 5000 years, by your definition?

As for milk, as a naturopath I have seen this issue debated over the

years, even by my own original teachers who often disagreed with each

other over this specific issue.

Since we as a species HAVE drunk milk from other species for thousands

of years since we domesticated animals- and who knows how long before

that- how can we say it is not " normal " ? Of course some of us digest it

better than others, and it was more common in some cultures than others.

But there are african tribes who have done and still do drink milk from

cows.

As for eating vegetables....again, I am trying to work out where you are

coming from, as i find your information rather extremist and not

resonating with me.

Peela

[Guest guest]

I think kefir tastes great!

>

> I agree with Tom's thinking. It just doesn't make sense that families

> with animals they milked once or twice a day wouldn't drink all they

> wanted fresh and then make cheese and other cultured products with the

> excess. Is WAP/Campaign for Real Milk now saying that fresh milk is a

> " compromise food " ? That is news to me, so maybe another school of

> thought is being discussed.

>

> B.

>

> > Traditional cultures that kept herds of cattle or other milk-bearing

> > animals did not need refrigeration to keep their milk from going sour

> > because they likely milked the animals every day. Do you know of any

> > traditional cultures that did not drink the milk straight? I could

> > understand seasonal variations in fresh milk consumption, e.g. in

> > winter or whenever the animals were not lactating, but it's hard to

> > believe they would avoid drinking delicious fresh milk when available.

> >

> > Tom

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kefir doesn't taste good? For real?

>

> I agree with Tom's thinking. It just doesn't make sense that families

> with animals they milked once or twice a day wouldn't drink all they

> wanted fresh and then make cheese and other cultured products with the

> excess. Is WAP/Campaign for Real Milk now saying that fresh milk is a

> " compromise food " ? That is news to me, so maybe another school of

> thought is being discussed.

>

> B.

>

> > Traditional cultures that kept herds of cattle or other milk-bearing

> > animals did not need refrigeration to keep their milk from going sour

> > because they likely milked the animals every day. Do you know of any

> > traditional cultures that did not drink the milk straight? I could

> > understand seasonal variations in fresh milk consumption, e.g. in

> > winter or whenever the animals were not lactating, but it's hard to

> > believe they would avoid drinking delicious fresh milk when available.

> >

> > Tom

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Raw means not pasteurized.

Fresh means not fermented.

All the things you list are fermented so they're not compromise foods.

> >

> > http://tinyurl.com/bz7u3n

> >

> > After reading the arguments against consuming milk and dairy products

> > in part one, you may be feeling a little confused as to whether or

> > not you should be drinking milk!

> >

> > Carolyn

> > Madison, WI

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree, I doubt that traditional people avoided fresh milk at all.

I think the point is that as soon as the milk comes out, they start consuming

it. The two " problems " from a " got milk " POV is that first the volume of milk

produced probably exceeded their capacity to drink all of it fresh so this lead

to the second " problem " --fermentation.

So if you look at the total volume of dairy produced and consumed, the majority

was consumed fermented just out of circumstance, not any principle that fresh

milk is a compromise food. Plus it's not like everyone gathered around the cow

during milking. People were out all day herding and working on crops so most

people probably weren't around to get fresh milk.

For us, fresh milk is a compromise food because modern refrigeration allows us

to consume 100% fresh milk which was rarely the case in traditional cultures.

The classification is only trying to ensure you eat some fermented dairy instead

of all fresh.

Plus fermented dairy is substantially easier to digest and higher in many

nutrients so it's better for you. Fresh milk is high in carbs too. And as I said

before I don't tolerate fresh milk well, but fermented milk is fine.

>

> B,

>

> > I agree with Tom's thinking. It just doesn't make sense that families

> > with animals they milked once or twice a day wouldn't drink all they

> > wanted fresh and then make cheese and other cultured products with the

> > excess. Is WAP/Campaign for Real Milk now saying that fresh milk is a

> > " compromise food " ? That is news to me, so maybe another school of

> > thought is being discussed.

>

> Yes traditional cultures did drink warm fresh milk and what they

> stored the excess via fermentation (the Masai for example, who would

> milk directly into fermenting urns). Also in the east they boiled it

> as well and you still find this being recommended in Ayurvedic circles

> as better than stored unfermented cold raw milk.

>

> The difference today is that we drink unfermented milk from cold

> storage. No question that is a fairly new practice.

>

>

> --

> It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

> many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

> to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

> you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

> percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

> personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

>

> - Ferriss

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, raw colostrum is not fermented.

> > >

> > > http://tinyurl.com/bz7u3n

> > >

> > > After reading the arguments against consuming milk and dairy products

> > > in part one, you may be feeling a little confused as to whether or

> > > not you should be drinking milk!

> > >

> > > Carolyn

> > > Madison, WI

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

> I love the taste of kefir, which by the way can be legitimately

> pronounced three different ways:

> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kefir

>

> I used to pronounce it \ke-ˈfir;

>

> then someone a few years back told me it was pronounced ˈkÄ " -fÉ™r,

>

> and then on a hunch decided to check it out and found that my original

> pronunciation was correct, so was the second, and that there was even

> a third way to pronounce the word -ˈke-fər\

Yes, but the word comes from the Russian, and I'm quite sure they pronounced it

\ke-ˈfir, with the accent on the second syllable. You can pronounce it any way

you like, regardless of whether it's an official English pronunciation, of

course.

Tom

[Guest guest]

,

> So if you look at the total volume of dairy produced and consumed,

> the majority was consumed fermented just out of circumstance, not

> any principle that fresh milk is a compromise food.

>...

> For us, fresh milk is a compromise food...

You're really contradicting yourself here.

> Plus it's not like everyone gathered around the cow during milking. > People

were out all day herding and working on crops so most people > probably weren't

around to get fresh milk.

Milk that sits out 8 or 12 hours at air temperature is will still be fresh

unless it's extremely hot out and there's no cool storage.

> For us, fresh milk is a compromise food because modern

> refrigeration allows us to consume 100% fresh milk which was rarely

> the case in traditional cultures. The classification is only trying

> to ensure you eat some fermented dairy instead of all fresh.

Then why call fresh milk a " compromise food " ? Your only argument seems to be to

drink fresh milk in moderation, which could be said about almost any food.

A second point: after 7-10 days in the fridge, my raw milk is about half sour.

After 2-3 weeks it is extremely sour, probably containing an insignificant

amount of lactose. Refrigeration does not stop but merely slows the fermentation

process.

> Plus fermented dairy is substantially easier to digest and higher

> in many nutrients so it's better for you. Fresh milk is high in

> carbs too. And as I said before I don't tolerate fresh milk well,

> but fermented milk is fine.

And I tolerate fresh milk perfectly; anecdoctal experience doesn't necessarily

mean much.

For those without lactose intolerance or galactosemia, the sugar in milk is

healthy compared to fructose or sucrose (a disaccharide of glucose and

fructose). Lactose is a disaccharide of glucose and galactose, both of which go

through the normal glucose metabolism pathway (unlike fructose, which bypasses

regulation and leads to problems). Furthermore, raw milk contains the lactase

enzyme, so the actual load on the body's enzymatic machinery is likely not

major.

Tom

[Guest guest]

Tom,

Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is easier to

digest and more nutritious.

Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a culture of

exclusive fresh milk consumption.

There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. It just

shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you will deprive yourself

of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

Cheers,

>

> ,

>

> > So if you look at the total volume of dairy produced and consumed,

> > the majority was consumed fermented just out of circumstance, not

> > any principle that fresh milk is a compromise food.

> >...

> > For us, fresh milk is a compromise food...

>

> You're really contradicting yourself here.

>

>

> > Plus it's not like everyone gathered around the cow during milking. > People

were out all day herding and working on crops so most people > probably weren't

around to get fresh milk.

>

> Milk that sits out 8 or 12 hours at air temperature is will still be fresh

unless it's extremely hot out and there's no cool storage.

>

>

> > For us, fresh milk is a compromise food because modern

> > refrigeration allows us to consume 100% fresh milk which was rarely

> > the case in traditional cultures. The classification is only trying

> > to ensure you eat some fermented dairy instead of all fresh.

>

> Then why call fresh milk a " compromise food " ? Your only argument seems to be

to drink fresh milk in moderation, which could be said about almost any food.

>

> A second point: after 7-10 days in the fridge, my raw milk is about half sour.

After 2-3 weeks it is extremely sour, probably containing an insignificant

amount of lactose. Refrigeration does not stop but merely slows the fermentation

process.

>

>

> > Plus fermented dairy is substantially easier to digest and higher

> > in many nutrients so it's better for you. Fresh milk is high in

> > carbs too. And as I said before I don't tolerate fresh milk well,

> > but fermented milk is fine.

>

> And I tolerate fresh milk perfectly; anecdoctal experience doesn't necessarily

mean much.

>

> For those without lactose intolerance or galactosemia, the sugar in milk is

healthy compared to fructose or sucrose (a disaccharide of glucose and

fructose). Lactose is a disaccharide of glucose and galactose, both of which go

through the normal glucose metabolism pathway (unlike fructose, which bypasses

regulation and leads to problems). Furthermore, raw milk contains the lactase

enzyme, so the actual load on the body's enzymatic machinery is likely not

major.

>

> Tom

>

[Guest guest]

,

> Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is > easier

to digest and more nutritious.

By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world is a

" compromise food " .

> Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that our

culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

> There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It just

shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese, kefir,

yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

Tom

[Guest guest]

Tom,

Foods are divided into categories based on their nutritional content. WAPF

advocates many preparation techniques that either increase the nutritional

content of food or ameliorate anti-nutrient effects.

When you compare fresh raw milk to fermented products made from raw milk, the

fermented products are superior nutritionally. The point of the compromise group

is that such foods should be eaten with less gusto than the traditional group

based on the assumption that the traditional group is superior in terms of

nutrition, as in the case under discussion.

I'm glad you eat fermented raw dairy because it's better for you than fresh raw

milk. I'm not knocking fresh raw milk. I'm just saying that it can be made

better.

If you think this is a problem I suggest you write a detailed letter to WAPF

formally requesting that fresh raw milk be included in the traditional category.

Cheers,

>

> ,

>

> > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is > easier

to digest and more nutritious.

>

> By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world is

a " compromise food " .

>

>

> > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

>

> I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that

our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

>

>

> > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It just

shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

>

> I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

>

> Tom

>

[Guest guest]

The point of the food categories, as I understand them, is to highlight which

foods, across many cultures are traditional and which are somehow compromised.

It's not attempting to define the ideal human diet as that in many ways is a

non-existent thing. Different ethnic groups have evolved different abilities to

assimilate certain foods and not others. Further, each individual has unique

abilities and inabilities to assimilate certain foods usually based on the

ability to produce or not produce certain enzymes. And even individuals

abilities to assimilate certain foods changes over time as both aging and

adaption can change said ability. The human body is amazingly adaptive.

Cheers,

>

> ,

>

> > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is > easier

to digest and more nutritious.

>

> By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world is

a " compromise food " .

>

> > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

>

> I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that

our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

>

> > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It just

shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

>

> I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

>

> Tom

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I totally agree. This is one of the reasons why it's so important to pay close

attention to how you respond to any given food and make adjustments as

necessary. This process is not always easy either.

Allergies can pop up at any time. My grandmother grew up poor in New England and

ate shell fish they dug themselves and then one day when was in her 30s, she

suddenly became allergic.

Cheers,

> >

> > ,

> >

> > > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is >

easier to digest and more nutritious.

> >

> > By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world

is a " compromise food " .

> >

> > > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

> >

> > I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that

our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

> >

> > > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It

just shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

> >

> > I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

> >

> > Tom

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I've altered my diet instead of the fast I was planning to this: as much fruit

and vegetables as I want, but 90% raw, one or two slices of whole grain bread,

and a small portion of cooked meat or eggs a day (unlimited raw milk and

butter). I've found that on this regimen I have tons of energy all day, am

clear-headed, and feel more emotionally stable. All I've really changed is the

amounts/proportions of the same foods I usually eat. And I'm dropping weight to

the tune of 1/2 lb a day.

I had been wondering if I had a gluten sensitivity but now I'm feeling that

maybe it's not necessarily as much about the type of food as the amount eaten.

The food intolerance is the body's response proteins leaking into the blood via

a leaky gut - the more you eat of irritating foods the worse you make the

problem both in terms of inflammation of the gut and increasing leakiness and

increased gamma globulins. So a diet low in harder to digest foods and higher

in " easier " foods seems like it might go a long way in preventing problems,

imho. (just trying to figure out why this is working for me so well).

> >

> > ,

> >

> > > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is >

easier to digest and more nutritious.

> >

> > By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world

is a " compromise food " .

> >

> > > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

> >

> > I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that

our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

> >

> > > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It

just shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

> >

> > I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

> >

> > Tom

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> Cow meat,

If you are looking for the correct term, the one ranchers use, it is BEEF. We

typically don't even eat cows. We eat steers, which are male. Cattle ranchers

say BEEF. Not that this tidbit will change the world or anything but I cringe

every time I read COW.

Joan

[Guest guest]

Glad to hear you've found something that works for you.

What percent of your calories is coming from fat and from carbs?

I'm curious if you're eating a high fat diet. Depends how much raw milk, butter,

meat and eggs your eating.Are you eating avocados?

Have you read " Good Calorie, Bad Calorie " . Taubes shows that it's what you eat,

not how much you eat that affects many systems in the body and many common

chronic diseases.

Some examples are:

1. A 10,000 calorie, high carb, diet left people feeling hungry at the end of

the day (this was an over feeding experiment to force weight gain)

2. A 650-800 calroie, high fat diet, resulted in weight loss without feeling

hungry.

Carbs increase insulin levels. Insulin in turn is a powerful appetite

stimulating hormone. Low carb diets don't produce large amounts of insulin.

A low-carb diet is similar to fasting. In both cases, the primary energy source

is ketone bodies. When fasting people rapidly lose most feelings of hunger.

Making foods easier to digest generally puts less stress on the body, although a

diet of pure glucose would be the easiest to digest but would cause numerous

problems from chronically high insulin levels. Just another example of extremes

being dangerous.

Cheers,

> > >

> > > ,

> > >

> > > > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is >

easier to digest and more nutritious.

> > >

> > > By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the

world is a " compromise food " .

> > >

> > > > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > > > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

> > >

> > > I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree

that our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth

and since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

> > >

> > > > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It

just shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > > > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

> > >

> > > I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

> > >

> > > Tom

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

where is the list of compromise and traditional foods? is this on the WAPF

website? The lists on p. 64-65 of NT show pasture-fed raw milk in the

traditional category, not the compromise category. Raw milk from conventional

dairies is in the compromise group. Does your copy of NT show something

different? I have the revised 2nd edition.

> >

> > ,

> >

> > > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is >

easier to digest and more nutritious.

> >

> > By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world

is a " compromise food " .

> >

> >

> > > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

> >

> > I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that

our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

> >

> >

> > > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It

just shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

> >

> > I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

> >

> > Tom

> >

>

[Guest guest]

So do ranchers keep all their cows? Or do they cull cow calves to favor steers?

Dairy producers do the opposite which is where we get veal from (culled steer

calves).

What do ranchers do with all their retired cows? And what happens to all those

worn out dairy cows? As I understand it, cows are usually ground into

hamburger.

Just curious...

>

>

> > Cow meat,

>

> If you are looking for the correct term, the one ranchers use, it is BEEF. We

typically don't even eat cows. We eat steers, which are male. Cattle ranchers

say BEEF. Not that this tidbit will change the world or anything but I cringe

every time I read COW.

>

> Joan

>

[Guest guest]

grassfed raw milk is listed in the top 14 foods here

http://westonaprice.org/causticcommentary/cc2004fa.html

> >

> > ,

> >

> > > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is >

easier to digest and more nutritious.

> >

> > By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the world

is a " compromise food " .

> >

> >

> > > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

> >

> > I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree that

our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth and

since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

> >

> >

> > > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It

just shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

> >

> > I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

> >

> > Tom

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I must have an un-revised second edition, what's your copyright date? Mine is

1999. I'll have to pick up a revised edition. Is there a summary floating around

that lists all the differences?

Mine lists " Raw, uncultured milk " under compromise foods and " Raw, whole,

cultured organic dairy products...from traditional breeds of pasture-fed cows "

under traditional.

However raw milk is classified, it's still harder to digest and less nutritious

than fermented raw milk products. That doesn't mean it's hard to digest or not

nutritious. It just means you can make it better through fermentation.

> > >

> > > ,

> > >

> > > > Fresh milk is listed as a compromise food because fermented milk is >

easier to digest and more nutritious.

> > >

> > > By that logic, any food except the single most nutritious food in the

world is a " compromise food " .

> > >

> > >

> > > > Modern refrigeration and extensive advertising has created a

> > > > culture of exclusive fresh milk consumption.

> > >

> > > I don't think advertising has anything to do with it. However, I agree

that our culture is a factor: collectively Americans have an extreme sweet tooth

and since fresh milk is far sweeter than any fermented milk product, naturally

that's what Americans prefer. And then there is chocolate milk, ice cream,

milkshakes, etc.!

> > >

> > >

> > > > There is certainly nothing wrong with consuming un-fermented milk. > It

just shouldn't been the only way you consume dairy because you

> > > > will deprive yourself of extra enzymes, vitamins and probiotics.

> > >

> > > I happily eat loads of fermented milk products on a daily basis: cheese,

kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, and clabbered milk. But I disagree that fresh, raw

organic milk from pastured cows should be considered a compromise food for a

typical healthy person.

> > >

> > > Tom

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

my copyright is 2001.

> >

> > ,

> > where is the list of compromise and traditional foods? is this on the WAPF

website? The lists on p. 64-65 of NT show pasture-fed raw milk in the

traditional category, not the compromise category. Raw milk from conventional

dairies is in the compromise group. Does your copy of NT show something

different? I have the revised 2nd edition.

> >