Re: Stefansson's Book Online

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know exactly how this is different from the original _Not

By Bread Alone_ ?

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Carolyn Graff <zgraff@...> wrote:

> The Fat of the Land may be read online here:

>

> http://www.zerocarbage.com/library/FOTL.pdf

[Guest guest]

According to the photo-copy of the book I have, there are some

additional introductory passages by friends and colleagues. I can't

remember if anything else was changed. I loaned the copy I have to

someone and can't confirm right now. Rousing good story. He must

have been a fun dinner guest.

Inspired, I went on a more than two week pemmican-only trial.

My endurance was through the roof. I only stopped because the pemmican

is so nutritively dense I still wasn't dropping weight on such a small

volume of food. Now I'm trying some different strategies to break

through the plateau in (on?) which I found myself. Still eating

pemmican but a few other foods, too.

tb

--- In , <slethnobotanist@...>

wrote:

>

> Does anyone know exactly how this is different from the original _Not

> By Bread Alone_ ?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Did you make your own pemmican?

I remember reading the later edition. I believe part of the changes involved an

updated

analysis of the Bible's commentaries on eating fats and other foods. I believe

the title of

the later edition comes from a passage in the Bible.

> >

> > Does anyone know exactly how this is different from the original _Not

> > By Bread Alone_ ?

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tb,

> Inspired, I went on a more than two week pemmican-only trial.

> My endurance was through the roof. I only stopped because the pemmican

> is so nutritively dense I still wasn't dropping weight on such a small

> volume of food. Now I'm trying some different strategies to break

> through the plateau in (on?) which I found myself. Still eating

> pemmican but a few other foods, too.

Interesting.

Inspired by Stefansson's all meat trial at Bellevue, Matt Stone's

recent 30 day trial,

Results from a 30-day, all animal product, near zero carb escapade...

http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2008/12/fumpclusions.html

and Washington's full blown adoption of Stefansson's

description of the all meat diet (IMO ' gets some things wrong

and has painted far too broad a brush when it comes to carbs, still,

interesting blog and forum)

http://zerocarbforlife.com/?p=288

I'm going to start the all meat diet tomorrow Matt Stone style trying

to see how defined I can get. I wanted to wait until I started my blog

to do the 30 day trial but at the rate I'm going who knows when that

might happen. This is the only window I have without worrying about

whether I keto-adapt or not. I'm also going to make my own pemmican so

that should be interesting.

I want to see how cut and defined I can get on this diet. I been

during the milk cure on and off because I know how that affects my

body from past experience (and I needed a good transition from the

Nativity fast, the last half which I spent consuming only liquids) but

winter milk is just plain boring. I found myself not wanting anything

to eat/drink including the milk. I could barely get a half gallon a

day in. That would normally be okay except the blah taste in mouth

just wasn't what the doctor ordered after coming off a fast. I'm going

to save the milk diet for the last 10 days of April.

So did you keto-adapt or was your breath raunchy for most of the period?

Do you think the slow down in weight loss was because of temporarily

lowered thyroid function? IIRC, Matt Stone was eating a ton of food to

keep this from happening, and he still lost 4 pounds of mostly fat

without exercising. On the other hand Washington says that the

reason he doesn't eat pemmican only is because he loses too much

weight.

--

It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

- Ferriss

[Guest guest]

--- In , <slethnobotanist@...>

wrote:

> Inspired by Stefansson's all meat trial at Bellevue, Matt Stone's

> recent 30 day trial,

>

> Results from a 30-day, all animal product, near zero carb escapade...

> http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2008/12/fumpclusions.html

>

> and Washington's full blown adoption of Stefansson's

> description of the all meat diet (IMO ' gets some things wrong

> and has painted far too broad a brush when it comes to carbs, still,

> interesting blog and forum)

>

> http://zerocarbforlife.com/?p=288

That's interesting. I'll check those out a little later.

Ironically, the food that has been my undoing are these uber-raw-vegan

dehydrated kale chips:

http://www.blessingsaliveandradiantfoods.com/kaleinkrunch.html

I think the msg in the nutritional yeast is exciting my brain cells to

the death... and I don't know how many calories are in them. I

figured it wasn't much but apparently I was mistaken. How many

cashews can be in there?

Whoa, wait a second, the online ingredient list shows cashews are the

SECOND ingredient by weight while the actual package-in-hand reads

cashews are THIRD--ho HO! Treachery afoot!

>

> I'm going to start the all meat diet tomorrow Matt Stone style trying

> to see how defined I can get. I wanted to wait until I started my blog

> to do the 30 day trial but at the rate I'm going who knows when that

> might happen. This is the only window I have without worrying about

> whether I keto-adapt or not. I'm also going to make my own pemmican so

> that should be interesting.

Making your own pemmican is...awful. Have you done it before?

Pulverizing the dried meat trashes the machine motor. Shockingly, I

no longer possess a kitchen nor cook (--I KNOW!) I'm very content

with US Wellness pemmican as I reminisce about my miserable

pemmican-making days of yore each time I cut open a spiffy,

plastic-wrapped bar...Stefansson writes a lot about the

labor-intensity of pemmican production. An entire bison resulted in a

single " piece " of 90# of pemmican in its own little hide sack.

>

> I want to see how cut and defined I can get on this diet...

Let's have a contest!

>

> So did you keto-adapt or was your breath raunchy for most of the period?

I've been keto for many months. I did do a targeted carbs approach so

I was drinking some carbs--about 25g post-workout--but overall it's

been keto afaik.

My breath doesn't SEEM raunchy. I have to scrape my tongue every

morning but otherwise my breath seems ok and there's never any build

up on the teeth. brushing is pretty much optional, but I like to

brush a bit.

>

> Do you think the slow down in weight loss was because of temporarily

> lowered thyroid function?

I worried that was the problem because I'd been dieting for months

without taking a break before I started with the pemmican. Plus, I

lied, I had a post-workout shake every day I trained, which is

virtually every day unless I feel undue fatigue. It was surely too

many calories. Especially when I gave in to kale chips at the end.

I needed to stay under 1400/day and 3 pemmican bars, a pwo shake, PLUS

kale chips was too much. I needed to take a break from dieting,

weighing, food recording, and relax. So, no, it wasn't the pemmican

that stalled the weight loss effort, but further reducing food volume

was upsetting to me at the time, though it isn't any longer. I just

needed a physiological and psychological break from dieting mentality

and activity.

Now I've dumped the body building dogmas which were unconsciously

influencing me and I'm ready to go. I'm simply deliberately

undereating and I think that's the win-win I've been seeking. My

problem is I need to be sure eat UP on occasion. I'm prone to just

diet-diet-diet...

It sounds like I must have lost a lot of weight with all this dieting

but it was mostly dieting to optimize body composition. My weight has

stayed within a few pounds. Now I'm down 5 pounds. Not until about

late December did I start trying to drop weight.

IIRC, Matt Stone was eating a ton of food to

> keep this from happening, and he still lost 4 pounds of mostly fat

> without exercising. On the other hand Washington says that the

> reason he doesn't eat pemmican only is because he loses too much

> weight.

Yeah, we'll see. Things should get more and more interesting. I do

have to eat just a tiny bit of food to keep a deficit. I was very

anxious about lowering intake too much before that it was problematic

but now I really think it's not that big a deal. As long as I eat

adequate protein to maintain lbm I have no fear of starvation, I mean,

really.

tb

[Guest guest]

--- In , " jeremyfox " <jeremytfox@...>

wrote:

>

>

> Did you make your own pemmican?

Nah, I buy it from US Wellness. I made it a few times in the past and

the job was a vortex of suck.

>

> I remember reading the later edition. I believe part of the changes

involved an updated

> analysis of the Bible's commentaries on eating fats and other foods.

I believe the title of

> the later edition comes from a passage in the Bible.

He does talk about that in the FOTL preface/intro. I never read the

original so I don't know the difference. I suppose our speculations

are easily enough settled if one of us bothered to peruse the online

copy...

tb

>

[Guest guest]

tb,

> Ironically, the food that has been my undoing are these uber-raw-vegan

> dehydrated kale chips:

>

> http://www.blessingsaliveandradiantfoods.com/kaleinkrunch.html

Raw cabbage?! My thyroid just said to me, " , don't you dare! "

and my anti-nutrient antennae is on high alert :-) Heck, may even be a

problem cooked for those who are sensitive to such things :-)

> I think the msg in the nutritional yeast is exciting my brain cells to

> the death... and I don't know how many calories are in them. I

> figured it wasn't much but apparently I was mistaken. How many

> cashews can be in there?

>

> Whoa, wait a second, the online ingredient list shows cashews are the

> SECOND ingredient by weight while the actual package-in-hand reads

> cashews are THIRD--ho HO! Treachery afoot!

Well at least the cashews aren't raw <g> (although as seeds I doubt

they were properly prepared).

> Making your own pemmican is...awful. Have you done it before?

> Pulverizing the dried meat trashes the machine motor. Shockingly, I

> no longer possess a kitchen nor cook (--I KNOW!)

According to this:

http://dannystourfood.blogspot.com/2009/01/pemmican-adventure.html

and this: http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=81 & page=4

(beginning at post #37)

its easy. I will let you know how it turns out.

> I'm very content

> with US Wellness pemmican as I reminisce about my miserable

> pemmican-making days of yore each time I cut open a spiffy,

> plastic-wrapped bar...Stefansson writes a lot about the

> labor-intensity of pemmican production. An entire bison resulted in a

> single " piece " of 90# of pemmican in its own little hide sack.

Given the amount I eat compared to what you eat, that might be a

pretty hefty price tag, although I noticed they now sell pemmican in

pails, which makes it a little more doable. And what's up with the sea

salt and water?

By the way, 90 lbs of pemmican, even for me, would last quite awhile.

And no cold storage? I could laugh at the already on the way

depression.

>> I want to see how cut and defined I can get on this diet...

>

> Let's have a contest!

Alright you are on! We can compare in June. That should be plenty of

time to round into your/my best shape. I'm placing an ad soon for an

early morning workout partner who is a total non-gym oriented workout

freak (meaning we can work in **and** out of the gym). I know some

people like that but its usually the early morning thing that gets in

the way.

>> So did you keto-adapt or was your breath raunchy for most of the period?

>

> I've been keto for many months. I did do a targeted carbs approach so

> I was drinking some carbs--about 25g post-workout--but overall it's

> been keto afaik.

> My breath doesn't SEEM raunchy. I have to scrape my tongue every

> morning but otherwise my breath seems ok and there's never any build

> up on the teeth. brushing is pretty much optional, but I like to

> brush a bit.

Well I have never been low enough carb long enough to actually get to

the point where my body no longer excretes excess ketones but rather

uses them efficiently for fuel. I don't know if a month will be long

enough. We shall see. I also wonder if the targeted carbs or the

cyclical keto approach keeps the raunchy breath at bay.

Matt Stone said his breath got really raunchy during the 30 days and

he lost his libido as well, but he was nearly all meat. He was assured

by some " zero-carbers " on the list that his libido would have returned

in spades had he stayed on the diet.

> I needed to stay under 1400/day and 3 pemmican bars, a pwo shake, PLUS

> kale chips was too much. I needed to take a break from dieting,

> weighing, food recording, and relax. So, no, it wasn't the pemmican

> that stalled the weight loss effort, but further reducing food volume

> was upsetting to me at the time, though it isn't any longer. I just

> needed a physiological and psychological break from dieting mentality

> and activity.

Ahh yes, fasting and feasting. Therein lies wisdom.

> Now I've dumped the body building dogmas which were unconsciously

> influencing me and I'm ready to go. I'm simply deliberately

> undereating and I think that's the win-win I've been seeking. My

> problem is I need to be sure eat UP on occasion. I'm prone to just

> diet-diet-diet...

Ahhh yes, fasting and feasting (or undereating and eating up), therein

lies wisdom <g>

> Yeah, we'll see. Things should get more and more interesting. I do

> have to eat just a tiny bit of food to keep a deficit. I was very

> anxious about lowering intake too much before that it was problematic

> but now I really think it's not that big a deal. As long as I eat

> adequate protein to maintain lbm I have no fear of starvation, I mean,

> really.

Yes I bet you do :-)

--

It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

- Ferriss

[Guest guest]

I don't know why I said that. I haven't had a pwo shake with carbs in

forever. The drink I use doesn't have carbs and doesn't take you out

of ketosis. I just fell asleep at the keyboard and started nattering

body-building-speak again--I told you guys!

tb

I did do a targeted carbs approach so

> I was drinking some carbs--about 25g post-workout--but overall it's

> been keto afaik.

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , <slethnobotanist@...>

wrote:

> Raw cabbage?! My thyroid just said to me, " , don't you dare! "

> and my anti-nutrient antennae is on high alert :-) Heck, may even be a

> problem cooked for those who are sensitive to such things :-)

Yes, I hadn't thought of that. But I never meant to eat so very many

of them.

> ..its easy. I will let you know how it turns out.

Oh sure. You should make one of those illustrated accounts.

I'm happy to think my experience with it was atypically unpleasant.

A friend of mine just made some and he didn't suffer any trauma, of

course his final product was rather odd, delicious, but odd and not

amalgamated. Tasted like a yummy, raisin-y Turkish-style mincemeat treat.

> Given the amount I eat compared to what you eat, that might be a

> pretty hefty price tag, although I noticed they now sell pemmican in

> pails, which makes it a little more doable.

I was spending horrific amounts of money on food so buying a case of

pemmican every ten days was a huge financial relief. Not to mention

the time spent on shopping and plotting out every bite I would eat

each day. gad, it was awful.

And what's up with the sea

> salt and water?

Yeah, well, that's the white man for ya! I think they soak the meat

in a brine before drying. That's how they make the jerky, so maybe

they use the ends and trim for pemmican.

>

> By the way, 90 lbs of pemmican, even for me, would last quite awhile.

The issue was 1-1/2 lbs per man, per day. Those trappers and traders

worked 14-16 hours a day and much of it was portage, for the traders.

I thought I'd eat 3/4 pound a day, but that's whatthe office jockey in

Stefannson's book ate. I only need about 3 bars, 9.6 oz.

> Alright you are on! We can compare in June. That should be plenty of

> time to round into your/my best shape.

Yeah, I'll be peaked the first of June. Not for aesthetics, but that

aspect shoulod be a lagniappe

I'm placing an ad soon for an

> early morning workout partner who is a total non-gym oriented workout

> freak (meaning we can work in **and** out of the gym). I know some

> people like that but its usually the early morning thing that gets in

> the way.

> Well I have never been low enough carb long enough to actually get to

> the point where my body no longer excretes excess ketones but rather

> uses them efficiently for fuel. I don't know if a month will be long

> enough. We shall see. I also wonder if the targeted carbs or the

> cyclical keto approach keeps the raunchy breath at bay.

I was confused when I said targeted carbs. I haven't done that in 6

mos. Everything I say is possibly suspect, I'm beginning to think.

Neither have I had carb ups in about two or more months.

>

> Matt Stone said his breath got really raunchy during the 30 days and

> he lost his libido as well, but he was nearly all meat. He was assured

> by some " zero-carbers " on the list that his libido would have returned

> in spades had he stayed on the diet.

What did he eat before? Was it a radical change?

> Ahhh yes, fasting and feasting (or undereating and eating up), therein

> lies wisdom <g>

Yes, intermittent starvation for the win.

tb

[Guest guest]

TB,

> Yes, I hadn't thought of that. But I never meant to eat so very many

> of them.

I used to eat Masa chips like crazy. Not a problem now since there no

longer seems to be any available on the market. I also had a problem

with MSG, except it wasn't the M -ono S -odium G -lutamate that was

the issue, it was the

M - (ichael)

(i) - S

G - (reedy)

syndrome <bg>

> Oh sure. You should make one of those illustrated accounts.

> I'm happy to think my experience with it was atypically unpleasant.

> A friend of mine just made some and he didn't suffer any trauma, of

> course his final product was rather odd, delicious, but odd and not

> amalgamated. Tasted like a yummy, raisin-y Turkish-style mincemeat treat.

Sounds good to me. The picture in the first link I provided looks

somewhat like that description.

> I was spending horrific amounts of money on food so buying a case of

> pemmican every ten days was a huge financial relief.

With no kitchen, I can imagine. I went though that for awhile. My food

bill was through the roof.

> Not to mention

> the time spent on shopping and plotting out every bite I would eat

> each day. gad, it was awful.

Ugh! A thousand times ugh!!

I don't think I'm going to have to do any real food plotting until

mid-June, and then only because I need to make sure my overall

saturated fat content stays high in what will otherwise be a lowered

fat content diet during that time.

> And what's up with the sea

>> salt and water?

> Yeah, well, that's the white man for ya!

LOL!

> I think they soak the meat

> in a brine before drying. That's how they make the jerky, so maybe

> they use the ends and trim for pemmican.

>>

>> By the way, 90 lbs of pemmican, even for me, would last quite awhile.

>

> The issue was 1-1/2 lbs per man, per day. Those trappers and traders

> worked 14-16 hours a day and much of it was portage, for the traders.

> I thought I'd eat 3/4 pound a day, but that's whatthe office jockey in

> Stefannson's book ate. I only need about 3 bars, 9.6 oz.

I don't know if it will be the case with pemmican, but eating two

pounds of beef on a given day is no big deal for me when meat/fat is

all I'm eating.

>> Alright you are on! We can compare in June. That should be plenty of

>> time to round into your/my best shape.

> Yeah, I'll be peaked the first of June. Not for aesthetics, but that

> aspect shoulod be a lagniappe

No doubt.

>> Matt Stone said his breath got really raunchy during the 30 days and

>> he lost his libido as well, but he was nearly all meat. He was assured

>> by some " zero-carbers " on the list that his libido would have returned

>> in spades had he stayed on the diet.

>

> What did he eat before? Was it a radical change?

I'm sure it was but I would have to check to be sure.

--

It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

- Ferriss

[Guest guest]

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 8:24 PM, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> With no kitchen, I can imagine. I went though that for awhile. My food

> bill was through the roof.

The above doesn't read quite right. I do have a kitchen, but I got

into the habit of buying most of my food already prepared from Whole

Foods. Ouch! It was a habit I acquired when I didn't have a kitchen,

and it took awhile to break.

--

It doesn't matter how many people don't get it. What matters is how

many people do. If you have a strong informed opinion, don't keep it

to yourself. Try and help people and make the world a better place. If

you strive to do anything remotely interesting, just expect a small

percentage of the population to always find a way to take it

personally. F*ck 'em. There are no statues erected to critics.

- Ferriss