Re: Absolutely No Grains, Paleolithic anyone?(was: Getting bett

January 31, 2009

<<<<No grains really ever,high good fats,veggies, some

fruit...all in all a high fat,moderate protein, low carb diet. I would

just like to hear some feedback from members who have found success

eating this way. I have done it in the past but always end up eating

grains again and am trying to stray away from this pattern.>>>>

I can't eat like that...too much meat makes me feel terrible, and too

low carbs makes me depressed. I prefer a lighter diet, with a variety

of protein sources but plenty of healthy fats and moderate well

prepared carbs.

A diet that isnt sustainable in the long term isnt going to work for me,

and a diet that is too way out for my family wont work either. But we

have no weight or health issues in particular, and I am not trying to

become super fit either.

peela

March 9, 2009

I think that the two primary challenges to a low carb diet are:

1. Not enough fat/too much protein

2. Overcomming simple carb addiction

I've read many accounts of people experimenting with low carb diets and if they

get the ratio of fat to protein wrong, it can lead to all kinds of health

problems. The ideal ratio appears to be 80/20 fat/pro. Even a ratio of 60/40 can

cause a lot of problems. The later appearing pretty similar in what you would

eat.

The other major challenge is that it appears to take quite some time to get over

simple carb addiction. In one study it took 12-18 months for subjects to stop

having sugar cravings. Now of course like all addictions, the physical symptoms

probably abate well before the psychological ones.

Other problems are that some people just don't like the taste/texture of fat.

One good way to eat fat is to eat more sausage and other ground meats. My wife

hates fat by itself, but will eat quite a lot if it is hidden.

Gall bladder problems can limit how much fat you can eat. Ox bile is suppose to

help with this, but I have no first hand experience.

I'm also curious if some people experience trouble when they force their livers

to produce small amounts of glucose. If that is a problem, then small amount of

carbs to prevent this may help solve the problem. But this is just speculation.

I suggest reading " Good Calorie, Bad Calorie " it is filled with insights about

diet, weight regulation, hunger and many other interesting observations.

Another good book is " The Fat of the Land " . It's out of print though so it's

hard to find.

Cheers,

>

> <<<<No grains really ever,high good fats,veggies, some

> fruit...all in all a high fat,moderate protein, low carb diet. I would

> just like to hear some feedback from members who have found success

> eating this way. I have done it in the past but always end up eating

> grains again and am trying to stray away from this pattern.>>>>

>

> I can't eat like that...too much meat makes me feel terrible, and too

> low carbs makes me depressed. I prefer a lighter diet, with a variety

> of protein sources but plenty of healthy fats and moderate well

> prepared carbs.

> A diet that isnt sustainable in the long term isnt going to work for me,

> and a diet that is too way out for my family wont work either. But we

> have no weight or health issues in particular, and I am not trying to

> become super fit either.

> peela

>

March 9, 2009

I eat like that (high fat adequate protein low carb) and I love it. I agree it

was a challenge to eat enough fat and I use sausage for that plus butter on veg

a lot.

Plus, I really don't like veggies much and it's nice to have just a little. I do

take care to have enough starch in the form of root vegetables to make sure I

don't get that depressed or bonky feeling from too low of carb too suddenly.

I absolutely agree there is a transition period. And grains are so ubiquitous,

you really have to practice and acquite skill in planning and preparation so you

have your food ready. Otherwise if you depend on convenience food out in the

world, grains it will be.

Connie

March 9, 2009

From what I read starches are the best source of carbs, except for foods

containing gluten, enriched, refined, or have anti-nutrients. They convert

directly as glucose whereas other sugars do not.

Starches are important particularly for anaerobic training. In order to improve

your results you must make sure you have enough glucose and eat enough starches

to where you body does not metabolize you muscle proteins. When it runs out of

blood glucose it will take from your glycogen reserves. You also have better

performance from utilizing glucose as your primary source of energy.

It would be good to consume high fat too so as not to lose muscle.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, " paulsntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

I think that the two primary challenges to a low carb diet are:

1. Not enough fat/too much protein

2. Overcomming simple carb addiction

I've read many accounts of people experimenting with low carb diets and if they

get the ratio of fat to protein wrong, it can lead to all kinds of health

problems. The ideal ratio appears to be 80/20 fat/pro. Even a ratio of 60/40 can

cause a lot of problems. The later appearing pretty similar in what you would

eat.

The other major challenge is that it appears to take quite some time to get over

simple carb addiction. In one study it took 12-18 months for subjects to stop

having sugar cravings. Now of course like all addictions, the physical symptoms

probably abate well before the psychological ones.

Other problems are that some people just don't like the taste/texture of fat.

One good way to eat fat is to eat more sausage and other ground meats. My wife

hates fat by itself, but will eat quite a lot if it is hidden.

Gall bladder problems can limit how much fat you can eat. Ox bile is suppose to

help with this, but I have no first hand experience.

I'm also curious if some people experience trouble when they force their livers

to produce small amounts of glucose. If that is a problem, then small amount of

carbs to prevent this may help solve the problem. But this is just speculation.

I suggest reading " Good Calorie, Bad Calorie " it is filled with insights about

diet, weight regulation, hunger and many other interesting observations.

Another good book is " The Fat of the Land " . It's out of print though so it's

hard to find.

Cheers,

>

> <<<<No grains really ever,high good fats,veggies, some

> fruit...all in all a high fat,moderate protein, low carb diet. I would

> just like to hear some feedback from members who have found success

> eating this way. I have done it in the past but always end up eating

> grains again and am trying to stray away from this pattern.>>>>

>

> I can't eat like that...too much meat makes me feel terrible, and too

> low carbs makes me depressed. I prefer a lighter diet, with a variety

> of protein sources but plenty of healthy fats and moderate well

> prepared carbs.

> A diet that isnt sustainable in the long term isnt going to work for me,

> and a diet that is too way out for my family wont work either. But we

> have no weight or health issues in particular, and I am not trying to

> become super fit either.

> peela

>

March 9, 2009

hi paul and all,

do you have a recommended fat/protein/carb calculator?

thanks,

lisa

>

> I think that the two primary challenges to a low carb diet are:

>

> 1. Not enough fat/too much protein

> 2. Overcomming simple carb addiction

>

> I've read many accounts of people experimenting with low carb diets and if

they get the ratio of fat to protein wrong, it can lead to all kinds of health

problems. The ideal ratio appears to be 80/20 fat/pro. Even a ratio of 60/40 can

cause a lot of problems. The later appearing pretty similar in what you would

eat.

March 9, 2009

> do you have a recommended fat/protein/carb calculator?

> thanks,

> lisa

I think all the diet trackers do that now.

I use Fitday for the PC. (Internet ones too slow)

Fitday calculates your percentages as you fill in your food log.

Although I must say I like Nutritiondata.com for its protein quality chart and

inflammation ratings.

Connie

March 9, 2009

I personally do not think you dan be a top competing athlete on a low carb diet.

It may be more healthy however...

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 9, 2009, at 1:34 PM, " lisa_mc_connell " <mmlisa2@...> wrote:

hi paul and all,

do you have a recommended fat/protein/carb calculator?

thanks,

lisa

>

> I think that the two primary challenges to a low carb diet are:

>

> 1. Not enough fat/too much protein

> 2. Overcomming simple carb addiction

>

> I've read many accounts of people experimenting with low carb diets and if

they get the ratio of fat to protein wrong, it can lead to all kinds of health

problems. The ideal ratio appears to be 80/20 fat/pro. Even a ratio of 60/40 can

cause a lot of problems. The later appearing pretty similar in what you would

eat.

March 10, 2009

Dan,

I suggest you read " Good Calorie, Bad Calorie " if for no other reason to make

you be more critical of everything you read. I personally would not trust most

of what I read in the media. Most journalists only do very superficial research

or are so biased they can't be objective. Taubes spent 5 years researching the

book and came to very different conclusions about many topics of diet, nutrition

and weight control. This despite the fact that he went into the process

believing most of the conventional wisdoms.

See additional comment below:

> >

> > <<<<No grains really ever,high good fats,veggies, some

> > fruit...all in all a high fat,moderate protein, low carb diet. I would

> > just like to hear some feedback from members who have found success

> > eating this way. I have done it in the past but always end up eating

> > grains again and am trying to stray away from this pattern.>>>>

> >

> > I can't eat like that...too much meat makes me feel terrible, and too

> > low carbs makes me depressed. I prefer a lighter diet, with a variety

> > of protein sources but plenty of healthy fats and moderate well

> > prepared carbs.

> > A diet that isnt sustainable in the long term isnt going to work for me,

> > and a diet that is too way out for my family wont work either. But we

> > have no weight or health issues in particular, and I am not trying to

> > become super fit either.

> > peela

> >

>

March 10, 2009

This is a very interesting point.

On the one hand you'd think that with the intense pressure to win put on so many

athletes that if a high fat diet produced better performance than a high carb

diet that they would already be eating a high fat diet.

On the other hand, don't underestimate the power of thinking inside the box. The

whole reason that saying is meaningful is because it's so uncommon and difficult

to think outside the box.

I haven't done any research on this topic so I can't make a claim, but I'd be

very curious to see studies comparing high carb to high fat diets in both

endurance and power athletic performance.

I don't know enough about human physiology for instance to know the various

efficiencies of the carb and fat metabolic pathways. But even if I was an

expert, I would not know for sure which was better until some solid trials were

completed.

At least from the WAPF POV, the Swiss mountain villagers used to have athletic

competitions as part of their festivals and cream was the " energy drink " they

preferred. Of course they didn't have Gatorade so we'll never know if it would

have worked better for them.

Cheers,

> >

> > I think that the two primary challenges to a low carb diet are:

> >

> > 1. Not enough fat/too much protein

> > 2. Overcomming simple carb addiction

> >

> > I've read many accounts of people experimenting with low carb diets and if

they get the ratio of fat to protein wrong, it can lead to all kinds of health

problems. The ideal ratio appears to be 80/20 fat/pro. Even a ratio of 60/40 can

cause a lot of problems. The later appearing pretty similar in what you would

eat.

>

March 10, 2009

There is also the USDA Nutrition Database. I tend to rely more on how I feel

than anything else. But I also have been eating a high fat diet long enough to

be pretty good and eyeballing my portions.

> >

> > I think that the two primary challenges to a low carb diet are:

> >

> > 1. Not enough fat/too much protein

> > 2. Overcomming simple carb addiction

> >

> > I've read many accounts of people experimenting with low carb diets and if

they get the ratio of fat to protein wrong, it can lead to all kinds of health

problems. The ideal ratio appears to be 80/20 fat/pro. Even a ratio of 60/40 can

cause a lot of problems. The later appearing pretty similar in what you would

eat.

>

March 10, 2009

I think even Taubes prefers starches over simple carbs. Fruits have been

bred through the past millenia to be sweet.

I browsed through his book at the book store.

I personally think if you are using the carbs, then it won't affect your health

as bad.

A high fat, low carb diet would be good for sedentary individuals and non

competing individuals.

A higher carb, higher fat diet would be idea for various athletes.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 9, 2009, at 4:42 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

Dan,

I suggest you read " Good Calorie, Bad Calorie " if for no other reason to make

you be more critical of everything you read. I personally would not trust most

of what I read in the media. Most journalists only do very superficial research

or are so biased they can't be objective. Taubes spent 5 years researching the

book and came to very different conclusions about many topics of diet, nutrition

and weight control. This despite the fact that he went into the process

believing most of the conventional wisdoms.

See additional comment below:

> >

> > <<<<No grains really ever,high good fats,veggies, some

> > fruit...all in all a high fat,moderate protein, low carb diet. I would

> > just like to hear some feedback from members who have found success

> > eating this way. I have done it in the past but always end up eating

> > grains again and am trying to stray away from this pattern.>>>>

> >

> > I can't eat like that...too much meat makes me feel terrible, and too

> > low carbs makes me depressed. I prefer a lighter diet, with a variety

> > of protein sources but plenty of healthy fats and moderate well

> > prepared carbs.

> > A diet that isnt sustainable in the long term isnt going to work for me,

> > and a diet that is too way out for my family wont work either. But we

> > have no weight or health issues in particular, and I am not trying to

> > become super fit either.

> > peela

> >

>

March 10, 2009

When you are pushing yourself so hard the main driving energy will be carbs.

Only so much fat will be converted to ketones. You don't want to use muscle

proteins because you lose strength in the event.

Fat would be good as a buffer so as not to lose muscle and carbs would be the

primary driving force. Fat would also be good for extra endurance. I was

reading the the intake of lauric acid from coconut oil will also give you extra

endurance.

For a Triathlon you would want 4.5X bodyweight of carb intake before an event.

This will store as muscle glycogen, liver glycogen, and blood glucose. It's

best to use starches as they don't put a strain on the immune system.

The question is how much glucose will store as glycogen, and how much will store

as fat. It would be ideal to take in just enough so as to fuel your body

stores. Take in the rest as fat. Maybe 1g fat 3.5X + fat intake.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 9, 2009, at 4:52 PM, " paulsonntagericson " <paulsonntagericson@...>

wrote:

This is a very interesting point.

On the one hand you'd think that with the intense pressure to win put on so many

athletes that if a high fat diet produced better performance than a high carb

diet that they would already be eating a high fat diet.

On the other hand, don't underestimate the power of thinking inside the box. The

whole reason that saying is meaningful is because it's so uncommon and difficult

to think outside the box.

I haven't done any research on this topic so I can't make a claim, but I'd be

very curious to see studies comparing high carb to high fat diets in both

endurance and power athletic performance.

I don't know enough about human physiology for instance to know the various

efficiencies of the carb and fat metabolic pathways. But even if I was an

expert, I would not know for sure which was better until some solid trials were

completed.

At least from the WAPF POV, the Swiss mountain villagers used to have athletic

competitions as part of their festivals and cream was the " energy drink " they

preferred. Of course they didn't have Gatorade so we'll never know if it would

have worked better for them.

Cheers,

> >

> > I think that the two primary challenges to a low carb diet are:

> >

> > 1. Not enough fat/too much protein

> > 2. Overcomming simple carb addiction

> >

> > I've read many accounts of people experimenting with low carb diets and if

they get the ratio of fat to protein wrong, it can lead to all kinds of health

problems. The ideal ratio appears to be 80/20 fat/pro. Even a ratio of 60/40 can

cause a lot of problems. The later appearing pretty similar in what you would

eat.

>

March 10, 2009

> I personally think if you are using the carbs, then it won't affect your

health as bad.

Ah but read Mark Sissons on the downside of eating a lot of carb and burning it

off. Still is hard on the body - inflammation, insulin systems, and joint

overuse. " Mark Sisson's Daily Apple " has a number of articles on that - search

" cardio " .

> A high fat, low carb diet would be good for sedentary individuals and non

competing individuals.

Depends on the level of competition. And if there has been time enough to adapt

to fat burning. There are studies showing better endurance performance on a

high-fat diet.

Professional and olympic level sports (and all the school age amateurs wanting

to be those guys) are more about performance than health, so at the highest

levels of athletics, yes, they train so much they can use fast carbs, and the

cost to health is of less importance.

> A higher carb, higher fat diet would be idea for various athletes.

In my opinion, just from the numbers at non-elite levels, the vast majority of

" athletes " would do well on a Sissons-style carb level. 80-120 a day from veges

and fruits, no grains.

Connie

March 10, 2009

Fruits have been bred in the last millenia for test. It is too high in simple

carb. Maybe organic or biodynamic fruits and not in high quantities. Some

veggies, not much due to simple carbs. No grains either. I think potatoes are

perfect.

Thank you,

Holt

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 9, 2009, at 5:25 PM, " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> I personally think if you are using the carbs, then it won't affect your

health as bad.

Ah but read Mark Sissons on the downside of eating a lot of carb and burning it

off. Still is hard on the body - inflammation, insulin systems, and joint

overuse. " Mark Sisson's Daily Apple " has a number of articles on that - search

" cardio " .

> A high fat, low carb diet would be good for sedentary individuals and non

competing individuals.

Depends on the level of competition. And if there has been time enough to adapt

to fat burning. There are studies showing better endurance performance on a

high-fat diet.

Professional and olympic level sports (and all the school age amateurs wanting

to be those guys) are more about performance than health, so at the highest

levels of athletics, yes, they train so much they can use fast carbs, and the

cost to health is of less importance.

> A higher carb, higher fat diet would be idea for various athletes.

In my opinion, just from the numbers at non-elite levels, the vast majority of

" athletes " would do well on a Sissons-style carb level. 80-120 a day from veges

and fruits, no grains.

Connie

March 10, 2009

> I haven't done any research on this topic so I can't make a claim,

> but I'd be very curious to see studies comparing high carb to high

> fat diets in both endurance and power athletic performance.

Such studies are just now being done. Search Pub Med. Phinney, who does study

athletes and low carb, made an off-hand comment in an interview that the last 30

years have been heavy on studying ALL about glucose pathways. Thinking that

because more sugar is used the higher intensity you go, that sugar must be the

most important thing. It's not quite that simple it turns out.

Now people are starting to study the interaction between dietary fuels, stored

fuels, and what you're habituated to. There is evidence that low carb people

" spare " glucose so a little goes a longer way.

Connie

March 10, 2009

hi connie,

thanks so much. fitday is great! wow, i am in shock about how many carbs i ate

today!

lisa

>

> > do you have a recommended fat/protein/carb calculator?

> > thanks,

> > lisa

>

> I think all the diet trackers do that now.

> I use Fitday for the PC. (Internet ones too slow)

> Fitday calculates your percentages as you fill in your food log.

>

> Although I must say I like Nutritiondata.com for its protein quality chart and

inflammation ratings.

>

> Connie

>

March 10, 2009

> thanks so much. fitday is great! wow,

> i am in shock about how many carbs i ate today! > lisa

yes isn't it something how fast they add up!

totally get that one.

March 10, 2009

I think it's impossible to have a high fat, high carb diet. Protein is the least

forgiving macro nutrient. Too little or too much within a fairly narrow window

can cause a variety of health problems. Carbs or fat on the other hand have a

much bigger window.

Like you can't be healthy on a diet that is 80% protein and 20% fat. You also

can't be healthy on a diet that is low fat like 80% carbs, 20% protein. Pritkin

found out the hard way on that one. A 33/33/33 diet is not high in anything.

Taubes shows that carb quality is important, but more important than that is

what your insulin response is to the carbs. And everyone has a different insulin

response and even for one person it can change over time.

Like I said before I haven't seen any research about how well fat and carbs

support athletic activity.

Have you seen any research on this topic? I'd love to read some if you have.

Cheers,

> > >

> > > <<<<No grains really ever,high good fats,veggies, some

> > > fruit...all in all a high fat,moderate protein, low carb diet. I would

> > > just like to hear some feedback from members who have found success

> > > eating this way. I have done it in the past but always end up eating

> > > grains again and am trying to stray away from this pattern.>>>>

> > >

> > > I can't eat like that...too much meat makes me feel terrible, and too

> > > low carbs makes me depressed. I prefer a lighter diet, with a variety

> > > of protein sources but plenty of healthy fats and moderate well

> > > prepared carbs.

> > > A diet that isnt sustainable in the long term isnt going to work for me,

> > > and a diet that is too way out for my family wont work either. But we

> > > have no weight or health issues in particular, and I am not trying to

> > > become super fit either.

> > > peela

> > >

> >

March 10, 2009

Here's one study:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/100/1/7

But of course you can't draw any conclusions from one study typically. You'd

have to really review all the relevant studies before you could come to any

conclusions. And you'd have to review them with a clear understanding of all the

major principles involved and which principle each stud is testing.

> > >

> > > <<<<No grains really ever,high good fats,veggies, some

> > > fruit...all in all a high fat,moderate protein, low carb diet. I would

> > > just like to hear some feedback from members who have found success

> > > eating this way. I have done it in the past but always end up eating

> > > grains again and am trying to stray away from this pattern.>>>>

> > >

> > > I can't eat like that...too much meat makes me feel terrible, and too

> > > low carbs makes me depressed. I prefer a lighter diet, with a variety

> > > of protein sources but plenty of healthy fats and moderate well

> > > prepared carbs.

> > > A diet that isnt sustainable in the long term isnt going to work for me,

> > > and a diet that is too way out for my family wont work either. But we

> > > have no weight or health issues in particular, and I am not trying to

> > > become super fit either.

> > > peela

> > >

> >

March 10, 2009

I guess the question is if the body can successfully use fat as efficiently for

anaerobic activity as it can with carbs if you give it time.

However, it's all just theorybright now. There is no proof. If it did work,

why doesn't Lance Armstrong or other high competitive athletes do it?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 9, 2009, at 7:05 PM, " cbrown2008 " <cbrown2008@...> wrote: