Re: Optimal vitamin A/D ratio

[Guest guest]

A and D will store in the body. So a better question to ask I'd how much a and

d will store and what how often do I need to refuel these sources?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2009, at 10:11 AM, " azariah77777 " <azariah77777@...> wrote:

Hi Everyone--

I've been following Masterjohn's research for several years now,

and read his latest WAPF paper with great interest ( " Does Vitamin A

Cause Osteoporosis? " )

In that paper, he writes:

" Just as the higher quality studies demonstrate a relationship between

vitamin A and osteoporosis, the higher quality studies among those

that report both vitamin A status and vitamin D status demonstrate

that whether vitamin A is harmful or healthful depends on whether

sufficient vitamin D is consumed with it. "

My question is:

What is the optimal preformed vitamin A/vitamin D intake ratio?

Now, being a scientist myself, I know that there might not be enough

data out there to definitively answer this question. However, Chris

has so much research at his fingertips, that I thought he might give a

reasonable " best guess " range--- along with a " danger " range. I mean,

it seems that 100/1 A/D is too high a ratio--- but what is best?

10/1? Is 1/1 too low? For example, if you took 4000 IU of D a

day, would 4000 IU of A be too little?

Additionally I was wondering if anyone knew or could estimate this

ratio for traditional cultures, especially those of the Arctic circle

who must get their D from food and not sunlight.

-Az

[Guest guest]

Az,

> What is the optimal preformed vitamin A/vitamin D intake ratio?

>

> Now, being a scientist myself, I know that there might not be enough

> data out there to definitively answer this question. However, Chris

> has so much research at his fingertips, that I thought he might give a

> reasonable " best guess " range--- along with a " danger " range. I mean,

> it seems that 100/1 A/D is too high a ratio--- but what is best?

> 10/1? Is 1/1 too low? For example, if you took 4000 IU of D a

> day, would 4000 IU of A be too little?

In a personal communication I asked a similar question. I don't think

he'll mind if I post his response here:

******

Tom: I've been experimenting with high-dose vitamin D. I'm taking 4,000 to 6,000

IU daily in the winter, along with high-vitamin CLO (575 IU D and about 5,000 IU

A) on most days. At the first signs of cold or flu, I've increased my daily dose

of vit. D to 20,000 to 30,000 IU for several days. It seems to have helped

defuse full-fledged illness so far. My question is, should I increase vitamin A

commensurate with the D and if so, how much would you recommend? Have you come

to any conclusions about the optimal ratio of A:D? The 10:1 ratio seems to

ignore the vit. D synthesized in skin exposed to sunlight, hence a 10:1 ratio in

winter could be too high.

Chris: I have no idea what the ideal ratio of A to D is. I would use at least a

1:1 ratio. This seems to be good at preventing toxicity in the animal studies

I've seen.

******

My current thinking is not to worry about vitamin A in the winter except on

those days when I take a very high dose of D. Vitamin D is present in very few

foods, even animal foods, and where present it's not in huge amounts. Vitamin A

however, is present in large amounts in liver and milk fat. Since I eat a lot of

these foods, I don't worry about supplementing with A to match the D. I think

that a higher-than-optimal A:D ratio is likely more dangerous than a

lower-than-optimal A:D ratio.

and others may disagree with these speculations.

Tom

[Guest guest]

Tom,

> I think that a higher-than-optimal A:D ratio is likely more

> dangerous than a lower-than-optimal A:D ratio.

>

> and others may disagree with these speculations.

I do disagree with this. I think it is biased by the fact that most

of the present research is done in populations that already have a

higher-than-optimal A:D ratio.

Anyone supplementing with vitamin D is not part of these population,

so the implications drawn from the research about the non-necessity or

even harm of vitamin A supplementation can't be generalized to them.

Chris

[Guest guest]

I have a question, sort of in the same vein.

I'm in AZ now and while I'm getting the same amount of outdoors (0.5-2 hours

per day, at most) as I did prior to moving - I can already tell a

difference. It seems the extra D is making me need more A.

Any idea what ballpark I should aim for A intake? (Also, I'm still nursing,

as I'm sure that makes a difference.)

Thanks!

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> I have a question, sort of in the same vein.

> I'm in AZ now and while I'm getting the same amount of outdoors (0.5-2 hours

> per day, at most) as I did prior to moving - I can already tell a

> difference. It seems the extra D is making me need more A.

What symptoms do you consider to indicate this higher need for A?

> Any idea what ballpark I should aim for A intake? (Also, I'm still nursing,

> as I'm sure that makes a difference.)

How much are you currently getting?

Chris

[Guest guest]

Sensitivity to light, predominantly. Also, sunburn. I never burned

anywhere else I've lived, providing I've gotten adequate Vitamin A

(actually, I used to get sun poisoning at least once per summer until I

discovered A).

As for how much I'm currently getting, I haven't calculated in a while. I'm

getting more from beta carotene than I used to (pumpkin, predominantly -

always with cream), but also from butter (about a stick a day still,

sometimes more) and milk. I haven't been eating liver as often, but I do

have liverwurst now and then. My best guess would be somewhere around 5,000

IU/day, minimum...

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Masterjohn

<chrismasterjohn@...>wrote:

> Lana,

>

> > I have a question, sort of in the same vein.

> > I'm in AZ now and while I'm getting the same amount of outdoors (0.5-2

> hours

> > per day, at most) as I did prior to moving - I can already tell a

> > difference. It seems the extra D is making me need more A.

>

> What symptoms do you consider to indicate this higher need for A?

>

> > Any idea what ballpark I should aim for A intake? (Also, I'm still

> nursing,

> > as I'm sure that makes a difference.)

>

> How much are you currently getting?

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> Sensitivity to light, predominantly. Also, sunburn. I never burned

> anywhere else I've lived, providing I've gotten adequate Vitamin A

> (actually, I used to get sun poisoning at least once per summer until I

> discovered A).

Interesting. I haven't come across photosensitivity as a symptom of

vitamin A deficiency in the literature yet, but I noticed pretty bad

sensitivity to light when I reduced my vitamin A intake a lot (largely

precipitated by failsafe-associated avoidance of clo and liver) that I

thought might be connected to vitamin A.

> As for how much I'm currently getting, I haven't calculated in a while. I'm

> getting more from beta carotene than I used to (pumpkin, predominantly -

> always with cream), but also from butter (about a stick a day still,

> sometimes more) and milk. I haven't been eating liver as often, but I do

> have liverwurst now and then. My best guess would be somewhere around 5,000

> IU/day, minimum...

Hmm, well it is anyon'es guess, but maybe you could try doubling it to

10,000 and see what happens.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Masterjohn

<chrismasterjohn@...>wrote:

> Interesting. I haven't come across photosensitivity as a symptom of

> vitamin A deficiency in the literature yet, but I noticed pretty bad

> sensitivity to light when I reduced my vitamin A intake a lot (largely

> precipitated by failsafe-associated avoidance of clo and liver) that I

> thought might be connected to vitamin A.

>

It is my number one indicator.

I think I got the idea from a biochem book I got. It didn't really clearly

state that Vitamin A deficiency = photosensitivity, but it did describe how

the eye perceives light vs. dark. Here's a tidbit from LPI that describes

the same thing:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminA/visualcycle.html

Really a kewl bit of chemistry - I think its the only place where trans fats

are found in the body naturally, as well as the only place in the body I

know of that can convert between trans and cis. Reminds me a lot of how a

digital camera works - I can't help but to imagine a whole bunch of little

Vitamin A based switches flicking on and off, on and off...

Oh and " Inadequate retinol available to the retina results in impaired dark

adaptation, known as " night blindness. " " (

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminA/)<http://lpi.oregonstate\

..edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminA/>

So with that data I did a little bit of experimentation and found that the

inability of my eyes to adapt to excessive light exposure (similar to night

blindness, but also occurred in the day going outdoors after being in) was

directly linked to my Vitamin A status.

Oh, and riboflavin has something to do with the conversion process too, but

I can't recall what. That textbook is still packed away too...

Hmm, well it is anyon'es guess, but maybe you could try doubling it to

> 10,000 and see what happens.

>

Thanks Chris!

BTW, hows your arm?

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> Really a kewl bit of chemistry - I think its the only place where trans fats

> are found in the body naturally, as well as the only place in the body I

> know of that can convert between trans and cis.

Well, just because a molecule is fat-soluble and has a trans double bond doesn't

make it a trans fatty acid. The various forms of vitamin A are lipids with many

trans double bonds but are not fatty acids (they are technically terpenes, a

class of hydrocarbons). The trans double bond isn't bad per se.

> So with that data I did a little bit of experimentation and found that the

> inability of my eyes to adapt to excessive light exposure (similar to night

> blindness, but also occurred in the day going outdoors after being in) was

> directly linked to my Vitamin A status.

Fascinating; I had thought that vitamin A status affected night vision far

before anything else, so it's interesting you see a clear difference in

adaptation to both bright light and dim light—or did you mean you only see the

difference when moving from bright to less-bright light?

Tom

[Guest guest]

On 3/9/09, Tom Jeanne <tjeanne@...> wrote:

> Lana,

>

>> Really a kewl bit of chemistry - I think its the only place where trans

>> fats

>> are found in the body naturally, as well as the only place in the body I

>> know of that can convert between trans and cis.

>

> Well, just because a molecule is fat-soluble and has a trans double bond

> doesn't make it a trans fatty acid. The various forms of vitamin A are

> lipids with many trans double bonds but are not fatty acids (they are

> technically terpenes, a class of hydrocarbons). The trans double bond isn't

> bad per se.

Neither are trans fatty acids bad per se (which is why we don't avoid

butter). And, in fact, the body enzymatically makes trans fatty acids

wherever it burns unsaturated fatty acids for energy during

beta-oxidation.

>> So with that data I did a little bit of experimentation and found that the

>> inability of my eyes to adapt to excessive light exposure (similar to

>> night

>> blindness, but also occurred in the day going outdoors after being in) was

>> directly linked to my Vitamin A status.

> Fascinating; I had thought that vitamin A status affected night vision far

> before anything else, so it's interesting you see a clear difference in

> adaptation to both bright light and dim light—or did you mean you only see

> the difference when moving from bright to less-bright light?

This is interesting indeed. However, Lana, is this what you meant by

sensitivity to light? I was thinking of another phenomenon -- bright

light being uncomfortable and especially anxiety-producing. However,

I think this (and probably an above average need for vitamin A) is due

to my incredibly light blue eyes, which let in a lot more blue light

(which is toxic and anxiety-producing).

Chris

[Guest guest]

> I was thinking of another phenomenon -- bright

> light being uncomfortable and especially anxiety-producing. However,

> I think this (and probably an above average need for vitamin A) is due

> to my incredibly light blue eyes, which let in a lot more blue light

> (which is toxic and anxiety-producing).

I hadn't ever thought of this until now, but to what extent does the iris of the

eye affect light striking the retinas? The image you see consists of light waves

that never touched your blue iris, rather they passed through the black hole

(pupil) in the middle! Obviously blue irises will be themselves more sensitive

to bright light, but you said " let in " which doesn't seem right to me. Pretty

trivial point, I guess.

Tom