Vitamin A/Vitamin D Optimal Ratio

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone--

I've been following Masterjohn's research for several years now,

and read his latest WAPF paper with great interest ( " Does Vitamin A

Cause Osteoporosis? " )

In that paper, he writes:

" Just as the higher quality studies demonstrate a relationship between

vitamin A and osteoporosis, the higher quality studies among those

that report both vitamin A status and vitamin D status demonstrate

that whether vitamin A is harmful or healthful depends on whether

sufficient vitamin D is consumed with it. "

My question is:

What is the optimal preformed vitamin A/vitamin D intake ratio?

Now, being a scientist myself, I know that there might not be enough

data out there to definitively answer this question. However, Chris

has so much research at his fingertips, that I thought he might give a

reasonable " best guess " range--- along with a " danger " range. I mean,

it seems that 100/1 A/D is too high a ratio--- but what is best?

10/1? Is 1/1 too low? For example, if you took 4000 IU of D a

day, would 4000 IU of preformed A be too little?

Additionally I was wondering if anyone knew or could estimate this

ratio for traditional cultures, especially those of the Arctic circle

who must get their D from food and not sunlight.

-Az

[Guest guest]

I thought the high vitamin cod liver oil was supposed to have the right

ratio

On Jan 12, 2009, at 12:32 PM, azariah77777 wrote:

I've been following Masterjohn's research for several years now,

and read his latest WAPF paper with great interest ( " Does Vitamin A

Cause Osteoporosis? " )

In that paper, he writes:

" Just as the higher quality studies demonstrate a relationship between

vitamin A and osteoporosis, the higher quality studies among those

that report both vitamin A status and vitamin D status demonstrate

that whether vitamin A is harmful or healthful depends on whether

sufficient vitamin D is consumed with it. "

My question is:

What is the optimal preformed vitamin A/vitamin D intake ratio?

Now, being a scientist myself, I know that there might not be enough

data out there to definitively answer this question. However, Chris

has so much research at his fingertips, that I thought he might give a

reasonable " best guess " range--- along with a " danger " range. I mean,

it seems that 100/1 A/D is too high a ratio--- but what is best?

10/1? Is 1/1 too low? For example, if you took 4000 IU of D a

day, would 4000 IU of preformed A be too little?

Additionally I was wondering if anyone knew or could estimate this

ratio for traditional cultures, especially those of the Arctic circle

who must get their D from food and not sunlight.

-Az

Parashis

artpages@...

artpagesonline.com

[Guest guest]

The most common ratio for CLO is 10:1 (A/D). But of course the main problem with

this ratio is that any given individual may have quite different requirements

for either A or D. And so this ratio could provide too little or too much of

either. But the industry has settled on this ratio. A fixed ratio by the way is

what drives most CLO mills to use synthetic A and D, that and concerns about

cost.

A and D appear to protect against toxicity from each other, but I don't know how

much sound science is really supporting the 10:1 ratio.

Relying solely on the ratio of a supplement like CLO is probably not the best

way to handle this situation. I would suggest at least getting quarterly 25(OH)D

tests for vitamin D levels to make sure you're not too high or too low. The

ideal range appears to be 40-60 ng/ml under normal conditions.

Cheers,

>

> I've been following Masterjohn's research for several years now,

> and read his latest WAPF paper with great interest ( " Does Vitamin A

> Cause Osteoporosis? " )

>

> In that paper, he writes:

>

> " Just as the higher quality studies demonstrate a relationship between

> vitamin A and osteoporosis, the higher quality studies among those

> that report both vitamin A status and vitamin D status demonstrate

> that whether vitamin A is harmful or healthful depends on whether

> sufficient vitamin D is consumed with it. "

>

> My question is:

>

> What is the optimal preformed vitamin A/vitamin D intake ratio?

>

> Now, being a scientist myself, I know that there might not be enough

> data out there to definitively answer this question. However, Chris

> has so much research at his fingertips, that I thought he might give a

> reasonable " best guess " range--- along with a " danger " range. I mean,

> it seems that 100/1 A/D is too high a ratio--- but what is best?

> 10/1? Is 1/1 too low? For example, if you took 4000 IU of D a

> day, would 4000 IU of preformed A be too little?

>

> Additionally I was wondering if anyone knew or could estimate this

> ratio for traditional cultures, especially those of the Arctic circle

> who must get their D from food and not sunlight.

>

> -Az

> Parashis

> artpages@...

>

> artpagesonline.com

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Relying solely on the ratio of a supplement like CLO is probably not the best

way to handle this situation. I would suggest at least getting quarterly 25(OH)D

tests for vitamin D levels to make sure you're not too high or too low. The

ideal range appears to be 40-60 ng/ml under normal conditions.

Dr. Cannell of the Vitamin D Council recommends a higher range:

" Thanks to Bruce Hollis, Heaney, Neil Binkley, and others, we now know

the minimal acceptable level. It is 50 ng/ml. In a recent study, Heaney, et al

expanded on Bruce Hollis's seminal work by analyzing five studies in which both

the parent compound (cholecalciferol) and 25(OH)D levels were measured. They

found that the body does not reliably begin storing cholecalciferol in fat and

muscle tissue until 25(OH)D levels get above 50 ng/ml. The average person starts

to store cholecalciferol at 40 ng/ml, but at 50 ng/ml virtually everyone begins

to store it for future use. That is, at levels below 50 ng/ml, the body uses up

vitamin D as fast as you can make it, or take it, indicating chronic substrate

starvation—not a good thing. 25(OH)D levels should be between 50–80 ng/ml,

year-round. "

Tom

[Guest guest]

Tom,

> Dr. Cannell of the Vitamin D Council recommends a higher range:

>

> " Thanks to Bruce Hollis, Heaney, Neil Binkley, and others, we now

> know the minimal acceptable level. It is 50 ng/ml. In a recent study,

> Heaney, et al expanded on Bruce Hollis's seminal work by analyzing five

> studies in which both the parent compound (cholecalciferol) and 25(OH)D

> levels were measured. They found that the body does not reliably begin

> storing cholecalciferol in fat and muscle tissue until 25(OH)D levels get

> above 50 ng/ml. The average person starts to store cholecalciferol at 40

> ng/ml, but at 50 ng/ml virtually everyone begins to store it for future use.

> That is, at levels below 50 ng/ml, the body uses up vitamin D as fast as you

> can make it, or take it, indicating chronic substrate starvation—not a good

> thing. 25(OH)D levels should be between 50–80 ng/ml, year-round. "

This reasoning is moronic in the maximum, there is absolutely no

evidence supporting this level, and it is associated with bone loss

and huge increases in the risk of heart disease.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> I thought the high vitamin cod liver oil was supposed to have the right

> ratio.

The question then becomes, the right ratio for whom and when? If it

is the right ratio in the summer when the sun provides extra vitamin

D, it cannot be the right ratio in the winter when there is no extra

vitamin D provided. If it is the right ratio for someone with light

skin who obtains extra vitamin D from the sun, it cannot be the right

ratio for someone with dark skin who obtains much less or maybe

virtually none from the sun.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> A and D appear to protect against toxicity from each other, but I don't know

> how much sound science is really supporting the 10:1 ratio.

Right. To my knowledge, there isn't any research supporting such a ratio.

> Relying solely on the ratio of a supplement like CLO is probably not the

> best way to handle this situation. I would suggest at least getting

> quarterly 25(OH)D tests for vitamin D levels to make sure you're not too

> high or too low. The ideal range appears to be 40-60 ng/ml under normal

> conditions.

That's a good idea, but it doesn't take into account interactions with

vitamin A or other nutrients. Maybe the ideal range is higher for

someone with a high vitamin A intake or lower for someone with a low

vitamin A intake, or maybe it interacts similarly with vitamin K,

various drugs, or other factors. There is so much we don't know. But

I agree that this range -- I would say 40-50 instead -- is a good

thing to stick to now based on the little we know.

Chris

[Guest guest]

You have to realize that almost any ratio of A to D in CLO is artificial in some

way. All the major mills standardize the amount of A & D, so their ratios are

arbitrary and constant. Other manufacturers will publish doses on the bottle and

then let the actual amount of A/D fluctuate above and below it.

But even if you only ate cod livers, the ratio would vary by species, season,

weather and natural fluctuations in food supply.

Cheers,

--- In , Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...>

wrote:

>

> ,

>

> > I thought the high vitamin cod liver oil was supposed to have the right

> > ratio.

>

> The question then becomes, the right ratio for whom and when? If it

> is the right ratio in the summer when the sun provides extra vitamin

> D, it cannot be the right ratio in the winter when there is no extra

> vitamin D provided. If it is the right ratio for someone with light

> skin who obtains extra vitamin D from the sun, it cannot be the right

> ratio for someone with dark skin who obtains much less or maybe

> virtually none from the sun.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

The VDC is biased and has severe conflicts of interest. That doesn't mean their

advice is totally useless or should be ignored. It just means you have to take

what they say with a grain of salt and consider other points of view.

Another good source of information is Krispin Sullivan at

http://sunlightandvitamind.com/. She is a certified nutritionist who has many

years of experience treating people. She is more conservative in some of her

recommendations, but she's a clinician who has to actually face her patients.

It's easy for the VDC to sit in it's ivory tower and hand down proclamations

without having to deal the the consequences. Between the two I would trust

Krispin's advice over the VDC only because she treats patients so she is looking

at the whole person, not just one of a thousand variables.

But I certainly would not recommend treating any single source as authoritative.

Instead it's much more important to read as much about the subject as is

available. Then when supplementing try to watch for any negative signs and make

adjustments accordingly.

There is still more fundamental research to do before we really have a strong

understanding of what is going on. But we do appear to already know enough to

know that no recommendation for dosage or even serum level is appropriate for

everyone, under every circumstance.

Vitamin D is a dependent variable tied to many other factors like vitamin A, K2,

calcium and phosphorous status, stress, illness, etc. Vitamin D has the extra

factor that we can make it in our bodies from sunshine.

I think the best advice is to eat a nutrient dense diet, supplement reasonably

and get your vitamin D level checked regularly. But even this is fragile advice

because as points out, knowing your vitamin D 25(OH)D level is of limited

utility. It doesn't tell you what your requirement is. All it will really tell

you is if you are very low or very high.

Cheers,

--- In , Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...>

wrote:

>

> Tom,

>

> > Dr. Cannell of the Vitamin D Council recommends a higher range:

> >

> > " Thanks to Bruce Hollis, Heaney, Neil Binkley, and others, we now

> > know the minimal acceptable level. It is 50 ng/ml. In a recent study,

> > Heaney, et al expanded on Bruce Hollis's seminal work by analyzing five

> > studies in which both the parent compound (cholecalciferol) and 25(OH)D

> > levels were measured. They found that the body does not reliably begin

> > storing cholecalciferol in fat and muscle tissue until 25(OH)D levels get

> > above 50 ng/ml. The average person starts to store cholecalciferol at 40

> > ng/ml, but at 50 ng/ml virtually everyone begins to store it for future use.

> > That is, at levels below 50 ng/ml, the body uses up vitamin D as fast as you

> > can make it, or take it, indicating chronic substrate starvation—not a good

> > thing. 25(OH)D levels should be between 50–80 ng/ml, year-round. "

>

> This reasoning is moronic in the maximum, there is absolutely no

> evidence supporting this level, and it is associated with bone loss

> and huge increases in the risk of heart disease.

>

> Chris

>