Whey

[Guest guest]

What I call a difference in philosphy, you refer to as ignorance.

Feel free to promote your products Duncan, but, don't expect everyone

to agree with your approach or your products. It might be hard for

you to accept that some will not buy into your products or your

approach, but you are going to have to live with it on a open list.

If its a natural food, I guess you could get it in a good health food

store for a reasonable price. that solves that discussion. I for one

don't think you can " improve on nature " and therein lies our

difference in philosphy, or ignorance if you prefer it in those

terms. just a flashy attempt to make money. a little common sense

goes a long way. and don't even get me started on " scientific

studies " .

g

> , you have revealed once more your bias if not ignorance of

this

> a product.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

reminds me of the drug companies and chronic illness... on the drugs

for life. I think you can get the same results without the products,

but, there I go again trying to point out the obvious.

g

> > You sure sound like somone who has never tried a good health

enhancing

> > product. Do you remember the difference you felt going from sick

to

> > OK? There is another level going from OK to rejuvenated ...

> >

> >

> > www.life-enthusiast.com

>

> As much as I occasionally disagree with , and vice versa, we

> are learning from each other and I believe we're both better for

it.

>

> Conversely, an ingrained bias only impedes progress, and once one

is

> well again, practicing anti-aging as suggests is

rejuvenating

> rather than simply stabilising.

>

> I have several clients who are looking and feeling younger every

year

> right now. I suppose they'll hit a wall sometime, but if you can

look

> and feel 60 when you're 80, you probably ARE actually younger by

our

> standards. I have one fella whose friends are still amazed he's

still

> getting younger; he's only 46.

>

> Duncan

[Guest guest]

this link povides some background into the " difference in philosophy "

that some apparently can't recognize. down the page a bit, check out

the discussion of alternative lite. we've all seen this approach, i

think you will recognize it(or at least you should be able to). I

don't agree with everything the author says, but he is right about

one thing. many who pass themselves off as alternative/holistic

healers really aren't truly holistic, in fact, they don't believe it

at all. I on the other hand do, and I'm not even a health care

practicioner. go figure, I guess it would be hard to make money

practicing as a true holistic health care practicioner... but then

again, now we are getting to the heart of the matter.

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr.html?

content=articles/index.html

johng

> > , you have revealed once more your bias if not ignorance of

> this

> > a product.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi

Now I finally understand the difference of opinion we hold. You state here

that " you can get the same results without the products " . My belief is that

you can't. Because the foods that we now buy in grocery stores no longer

contain the levels of minerals and enzymes the foods we would grow and

harvest only a hundred years ago. I believe that modern food storage, while

improving our selection has diminished the quality of things we would get in

season locally. Also, the plants grown with " speed-up " fertilizers con't

extract the levels of minerals from soils that they should.

I could point to a number of studies that document that. So to re-state my

point: you can do OK on the regular fare, but if you want excellence, you

will need to reach for supplements. I look at it this way: concentrated

special food is only a little bit different from regular food grown by a

farmer.

www.life-enthusiast.com

Re: whey

> reminds me of the drug companies and chronic illness... on the drugs

> for life. I think you can get the same results without the products,

> but, there I go again trying to point out the obvious.

>

> g

[Guest guest]

-

I agree with much of what you have said. it takes work to pick the

correct foods, buy local, buy fresh, buy organic. but it can be done.

And, I may bend a bit when it comes to minerals. I don't take them

myself, but I can see where this might need to be done.

On a philosophical level, i feel that many many sick people are

distracted by the flood of products out there, each promising to work

wonders. they tend to resist looking at their own lives, and reach

for the easy answer. this is the same thinking that draws people to

medication, just flipped to a new source of relief, products. The

internet is filled with bogus claims and expensive rip offs. For a

long time I bought into it. but, having recovered my health after

turning my back on these things, I feel they are not necessary, and

can delay, perhaps forever, a return to real health.

As you mentioned, this is a differance of opinion. I feel you are an

honest person speaking from your heart, I hope you can see I am

trying to do the same thing.

g

> Hi

>

> Now I finally understand the difference of opinion we hold. You

state here

> that " you can get the same results without the products " . My belief

is that

> you can't. Because the foods that we now buy in grocery stores no

longer

> contain the levels of minerals and enzymes the foods we would grow

and

> harvest only a hundred years ago. I believe that modern food

storage, while

> improving our selection has diminished the quality of things we

would get in

> season locally. Also, the plants grown with " speed-up " fertilizers

con't

> extract the levels of minerals from soils that they should.

>

> I could point to a number of studies that document that. So to re-

state my

> point: you can do OK on the regular fare, but if you want

excellence, you

> will need to reach for supplements. I look at it this way:

concentrated

> special food is only a little bit different from regular food grown

by a

> farmer.

>

>

> www.life-enthusiast.com

> Re: whey

>

>

> > reminds me of the drug companies and chronic illness... on the

drugs

> > for life. I think you can get the same results without the

products,

> > but, there I go again trying to point out the obvious.

> >

> > g

[Guest guest]

This sounds like an argument for organic produce, rather than

expensive supplements with questionable value. Organic produce is more

expensive, but I believe it tastes much better. I now buy organic

goods (preferably locally grown) wherever possible. If we all start to

buy organic, the large growers will eventually get the message and

will reduce the use of pesticides and other toxins.

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:31:09 -0600, Pytela

<martinp@...> wrote:

> Hi

>

> Now I finally understand the difference of opinion we hold. You state here

> that " you can get the same results without the products " . My belief is that

> you can't. Because the foods that we now buy in grocery stores no longer

> contain the levels of minerals and enzymes the foods we would grow and

> harvest only a hundred years ago. I believe that modern food storage, while

> improving our selection has diminished the quality of things we would get in

> season locally. Also, the plants grown with " speed-up " fertilizers con't

> extract the levels of minerals from soils that they should.

>

> I could point to a number of studies that document that. So to re-state my

> point: you can do OK on the regular fare, but if you want excellence, you

> will need to reach for supplements. I look at it this way: concentrated

> special food is only a little bit different from regular food grown by a

> farmer.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Alisha

You are right, my argument is for organic foods. And we consumers do have

the power. We ultimately decide what is made, because goods that remain

unsold will not be manufactured for long. Unfortunately the majority of

people are watching the corporate TV channels, and have their opinions

controlled by advertising inside and outside of the shows they watch.

And I also agree with that there is a lot of hype and false hope sold

by many vendors of both drugs and supplements. I believe in natural

products, see the selection on our website.

www.life-enthusiast.com

Re: Re: whey

> This sounds like an argument for organic produce, rather than

> expensive supplements with questionable value. Organic produce is more

> expensive, but I believe it tastes much better. I now buy organic

> goods (preferably locally grown) wherever possible. If we all start to

> buy organic, the large growers will eventually get the message and

> will reduce the use of pesticides and other toxins.

>

>

> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:31:09 -0600, Pytela

> <martinp@...> wrote:

> > Hi

> >

> > Now I finally understand the difference of opinion we hold. You state

here

> > that " you can get the same results without the products " . My belief is

that

> > you can't. Because the foods that we now buy in grocery stores no longer

> > contain the levels of minerals and enzymes the foods we would grow and

> > harvest only a hundred years ago. I believe that modern food storage,

while

> > improving our selection has diminished the quality of things we would

get in

> > season locally. Also, the plants grown with " speed-up " fertilizers con't

> > extract the levels of minerals from soils that they should.

> >

> > I could point to a number of studies that document that. So to re-state

my

> > point: you can do OK on the regular fare, but if you want excellence,

you

> > will need to reach for supplements. I look at it this way: concentrated

> > special food is only a little bit different from regular food grown by a

> > farmer.

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

> What I call a difference in philosphy, you refer to as ignorance.

I did, because you don't seem to have read any of the research, yet

you trash the concept out-of-hand. This is a very important body of

knowledge.

> If its a natural food, I guess you could get it in a good health food

> store for a reasonable price. that solves that discussion.

Cold-processed whey is indeed available at health food stores. The

caution is to read the label; of course we want it sugar-free, and it

must be undenatured.

> I for one

> don't think you can " improve on nature " and therein lies our

> difference in philosphy, or ignorance if you prefer it in those terms.

> just a flashy attempt to make money. a little common sense goes a

> long way. and don't even get me started on " scientific studies " .

>

> g

Spray drying a product is a speeded up version of letting the whey

sit in a bucket until it evaporates the natural way, with obvious

advantages to speeding up the process. This little improvement on

nature eliminates the probability that your bucket of whey will rot

before it dries.

You can prepare your whey any way you like it, or even drink 1500

gallons a day because it's more natural in your view, but you can't

dispute the science. (after reading it of course

regards,

Duncan Crow

duncancrow/

--- live and help live... ---

[Guest guest]

Duncan-

you are just going to have to let it go. You accuse me of bias, but

you are selling this stuff and therefore have built in, undeniable

bias. I sell nothing, my " bias " is my experience, which I trust more

than your " scientific studies " which, go figure, are selected to hawk

your product. like so many others who hawk the same product dressed

up to appear different.

I have fairly strong reasons for rejecting processed products, and I

don't consider cold pressed whey a natural food, sorry, but that is my

opinion. I hardly consider my choice made " out of hand " , but rather

is based on experience and years of reading, and advice of those I trust.

a glass of water is good for you, 15 gallons of water would kill you.

there is no need to refine nature, that's where we always get

ourselves into trouble afterall, isn't it? In my opinion, man's so

called improvements on nature fail to capture the natural essence of

what was altered anyway. and really, these " improved " products are

often just an excuse to gouge someone for their hard earned money. I

realize you disagree with this position, but, it is a valid outlook on

life and health. I understand why it bothers you. under a true

holistic approach, there would not be much room for most of what you

sell. but, as this is not your list, you can't censor, and you can't

pretend that approaches contrary to yours don't exist.

g

>

> > What I call a difference in philosphy, you refer to as ignorance.

>

> I did, because you don't seem to have read any of the research, yet

> you trash the concept out-of-hand. This is a very important body of

> knowledge.

>

> > If its a natural food, I guess you could get it in a good health food

> > store for a reasonable price. that solves that discussion.

>

> Cold-processed whey is indeed available at health food stores. The

> caution is to read the label; of course we want it sugar-free, and it

> must be undenatured.

>

> > I for one

> > don't think you can " improve on nature " and therein lies our

> > difference in philosphy, or ignorance if you prefer it in those terms.

> > just a flashy attempt to make money. a little common sense goes a

> > long way. and don't even get me started on " scientific studies " .

> >

> > g

>

> Spray drying a product is a speeded up version of letting the whey

> sit in a bucket until it evaporates the natural way, with obvious

> advantages to speeding up the process. This little improvement on

> nature eliminates the probability that your bucket of whey will rot

> before it dries.

>

> You can prepare your whey any way you like it, or even drink 1500

> gallons a day because it's more natural in your view, but you can't

> dispute the science. (after reading it of course

>

> regards,

>

>

> Duncan Crow

> duncancrow/

>

> --- live and help live... ---

[Guest guest]

> reminds me of the drug companies and chronic illness... on the drugs

> for life. I think you can get the same results without the products,

> but, there I go again trying to point out the obvious.

>

> g

My point is that you CAN'T get the same results without the products.

Glutathione levels and HGH levels fall naturally with age; they are

both crucially important for wellness, and the longest-lived people

have the highest levels naturally into their old age.

But many of us want to experience what's natural to only a few. An

anti-aging tool/program is designed to either prolong your life or at

least give you functionality far beyond the norm, well into what

should be your declining years.

You're free of course to live a normal lifespan, decline and die if

you choose, but you can't dispute other peoples' bid to experience

that just because it's not for you.

So we're still speaking in ideals, not disputing the facts yet, right

Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

I kind of feel that way about my naturopath. She is

very nice and has helped me a lot, but she has been

bias towards things like alternative allergy testing

(she just believes in the elimination testing) and is

kind of bias to other therapies I have tried stating

they are too harsh on the body (eg. colonics, which

has helped me a HUGE deal). She sells me heaps of

expensive suppliments. I have spent hundreds of

dollars! Now I am sure some of them may have been

necessary, but I also felt a little like an MD

saying.. ok, let's try this and see if it does

anything *sigh* Just can't win.

*8-)

> -

>

> I agree with much of what you have said. it takes

> work to pick the

> correct foods, buy local, buy fresh, buy organic.

> but it can be done.

> And, I may bend a bit when it comes to minerals. I

> don't take them

> myself, but I can see where this might need to be

> done.

>

> On a philosophical level, i feel that many many sick

> people are

> distracted by the flood of products out there, each

> promising to work

> wonders. they tend to resist looking at their own

> lives, and reach

> for the easy answer. this is the same thinking that

> draws people to

> medication, just flipped to a new source of relief,

> products. The

> internet is filled with bogus claims and expensive

> rip offs. For a

> long time I bought into it. but, having recovered

> my health after

> turning my back on these things, I feel they are not

> necessary, and

> can delay, perhaps forever, a return to real health.

>

> As you mentioned, this is a differance of opinion.

> I feel you are an

> honest person speaking from your heart, I hope you

> can see I am

> trying to do the same thing.

>

> g

>

[Guest guest]

I agree for that! I find that organic produce and meat

are finally becomming common place where I live and I

notice that the prices are starting to go down a

little too *Hurray*!!

*8-)

> Organic produce is more

> expensive, but I believe it tastes much better. I

> now buy organic

> goods (preferably locally grown) wherever possible.

> If we all start to

> buy organic, the large growers will eventually get

> the message and

> will reduce the use of pesticides and other toxins.

>

[Guest guest]

Ducan-

where is the link to the study you to which you refer? and I assume

these people got their gluthioine from their food, is that not the case?

> > Duncan,

> > Do you have any verifiable testimonies of people who have lived longer

> > (preferably at least 100) due to glutathione supplements? If not, it

> > sounds like you're promoting your products based on an un-tested and

> > un-proven hypothesis. Leesh

>

> This work has indeed been done, Leesh.

>

> A study of elderly people found that ALL of the centenarians had one

> thing in common -- unusually high levels of glutathione for their

> age.

>

> That's one reason why glutathione maintenance remains one of the key

> anti-aging tools. Also, infection, age-related degeneration, and

> other degenerative illness are stimulated under a condition of low

> glutathione levels.

>

> Now, one might argue that we perhaps should allow all that illness to

> occur because its natural, but I don't buy that argument as it would

> allow a lot of people to deteriorate before their time when we have

> the means to avoid it. I believe that withholding the treatment would

> be unethical, so I make sure people are aware of their options.

>

> regards,

>

> Duncan Crow

>

> regards,

>

> Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

That's not what I asked. Has there been any evidence that the

supplements result in longer life for humans? There's a difference

between " causation " and " correlation " in research. To say that there

are high levels of glutathione in centenarians only implys a

correlation. It's like saying that since centenarians have higher

blood pressure (if they do) than 50 year olds, that high blood

pressure allows them to live longer. Alternative theories could be

that there is simply an accumulation of glutathione in the body as a

byproduct of the aging process. In addition, as has said, the

glutathione most likely came through foods rather than supplements.

> > Duncan,

> > Do you have any verifiable testimonies of people who have lived

longer

> > (preferably at least 100) due to glutathione supplements? If not,

it

> > sounds like you're promoting your products based on an un-tested

and

> > un-proven hypothesis. Leesh

>

> This work has indeed been done, Leesh.

>

> A study of elderly people found that ALL of the centenarians had

one

> thing in common -- unusually high levels of glutathione for their

> age.

>

> That's one reason why glutathione maintenance remains one of the

key

> anti-aging tools. Also, infection, age-related degeneration, and

> other degenerative illness are stimulated under a condition of low

> glutathione levels.

>

> Now, one might argue that we perhaps should allow all that illness

to

> occur because its natural, but I don't buy that argument as it

would

> allow a lot of people to deteriorate before their time when we have

> the means to avoid it. I believe that withholding the treatment

would

> be unethical, so I make sure people are aware of their options.

>

> regards,

>

> Duncan Crow

>

> regards,

>

> Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

So you are saying the 100 year old folks were taking supps? and this

is not a correlational study?

g

> > where is the link to the study you to which you refer? and I assume

> > these people got their gluthioine from their food, is that not the

> > case? > >

>

> Search PubMed with this query: glutathione centenarians longevity not

> polymorphism; centenarians had higher than average glutathione or the

> enzyme that reduces glutathione so it can be re-used.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search & DB=pubmed

>

> Hundreds more studies link low glutathione to age-related

> degeneration, infection and degenerative disease; you can find them

> by appropriate keyword searches on the Medline database.

>

> No, the people didn't get glutathione from their food. Dietary

> glutathione isn't useful; the peptide is not absorbed well and is

> mainly digested into its component amino acids. Theis enzyme is made

> within every cell from precursor amino acid peptides.

>

> For more longevity information, there's a dicussion group with that

> name. People on that list discuss and use HGH and insulin, another

> potent growth hormone, to reduce daily wear including the formation

> of advanced glycation end products.

>

> regards,

>

> Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

from what I gather, the studies show that very old people have higher

gluthione levels. fair enough. The studies do not say that

supplementing gluthione or the elements that the body uses to make

gluthione, will enable you to live longer. and, these are just

correlational studies anyway. I didn't really see sound explanation

on why some people have higher levels than others, or why some live

longer. that is called speculation.

the conclusion you make is that supplementation will bring the same

results as those who lived 100 naturally. i didn't see anything about

the 100 plus club taking supps. so really, its opinion that the supps

will bring about this same result. You are of course entitled to your

opinion, but I and others are entitled to call it just that, opinion

put forward by someone selling a product. people can draw their own

conclusions. I am happy to leave it at that.

g

> > where is the link to the study you to which you refer? and I assume

> > these people got their gluthioine from their food, is that not the

> > case? > >

>

> Search PubMed with this query: glutathione centenarians longevity not

> polymorphism; centenarians had higher than average glutathione or the

> enzyme that reduces glutathione so it can be re-used.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search & DB=pubmed

>

> Hundreds more studies link low glutathione to age-related

> degeneration, infection and degenerative disease; you can find them

> by appropriate keyword searches on the Medline database.

>

> No, the people didn't get glutathione from their food. Dietary

> glutathione isn't useful; the peptide is not absorbed well and is

> mainly digested into its component amino acids. Theis enzyme is made

> within every cell from precursor amino acid peptides.

>

> For more longevity information, there's a dicussion group with that

> name. People on that list discuss and use HGH and insulin, another

> potent growth hormone, to reduce daily wear including the formation

> of advanced glycation end products.

>

> regards,

>

> Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

@@@@@ :

> I have a question about the nutrient value that is left in whey

that

> has been through the Ricotta cheese making process. I know the

> enzymes have been killed off because it has to be heated to near

> boiling, and I also know that most of the protein is gone after the

> Ricotta is strained out.

>

> My question is this--Is there any food value left in this whey? The

> whey still tastes good to me and I thought it would make an

> excellent soup starter, or added to pancakes, or in bread making,

> etc., but what nutrients are left in the way of vitamins, minerals,

> efa's, and such? Is it worth using and keeping, or should it just

be

> discarded down the drain as many directions state to do after

making

> Ricotta?

@@@@@

Call in the whey rescue troops!!!

" Don't let her get near the drain! "

" , we're moving in "

" We've got pinned against the fridge "

" It's on the counter--I got it! "

<Cheers>

Whey is fantastically nutritious!

Check out the USDA data at <usda.shim.net>.

Vitamins? Per calorie it has more than twice as much of the water-

soluble vitamins than whole milk. Judging by the USDA data, it seems

that the whey retains most of these vitamins when milk is separated.

Of course there are some losses for a few of them (but not all) due

to heat during your cheese-making, but it still compares favorably to

unseparated milk. The USDA data suggests that the fat-soluble

vitamins in milk, A and D, are not retained significantly in the

whey, which makes sense since all the fat is in the curds.

Minerals? It appears whey is similarly very rich in calcium,

potassium, etc like unseparated milk. At the very least, you can

think of whey as an incredibly rich mineral water with natural

sweetener (lactose). In other words, use it for the minerals alone!

EFAs? Well, milk isn't a source of EFAs anyway, so that's a strange

question. As far as fatty acids in general--butyric, lauric, etc--

whey has a negligible amount of fatty acids so it's an irrelevant

aspect of nutrition.

Whey is mostly water, lactose, protein and minerals. Milk proteins

are either whey (20%) or casein (80%). The whey has the whey

proteins and the curds have the casein. The concentration of whey

protein in whey is fairly low because of all the water and lactose,

but only about 5 times less than unseparated milk, so the protein

contents of whey and unseparated milk are roughly in the same order

of magnitude. Crucially, whey protein is widely recognized as

protein of outstanding value, the same stuff sold very profitably to

body-builders, etc.

In the case of heated whey like yours, you lose the bacteria and

enzymes, but they would be lost anyway if you use it in cooked food.

If your whey-making process involved any fermentation, you might have

a good bit of lactic acid, which would make it suitable to help

fermenting stuff by lowering the pH, but you'd need a bacterial

starter culture from another part of the ferment, which often would

be the food itself, whereas raw whey would supply both lactic acid

and a starter culture.

In any case, whey is great for just drinking plain, very refreshing.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Thanks, . I always felt like I was dumping " gold " down the

drain every time I dumped any whey. I will never let it happen

again. From now on, it all gets used!

[Guest guest]

I use my whey on my face, leave in open container, let it evaporate

a little, makes a gluey past.

I use it on my wrinkles, and age spots

can feel it work, better than anything I have ever used.

>

> Thanks, . I always felt like I was dumping " gold " down the

> drain every time I dumped any whey. I will never let it happen

> again. From now on, it all gets used!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pam Pinto wrote:

>

> I use my whey on my face, leave in open container, let it evaporate

> a little, makes a gluey past.

> I use it on my wrinkles, and age spots

> can feel it work, better than anything I have ever used.

I'm sure putting some whey in the bath is divine. I have been meaning

to try that.

Dee Dee

[Guest guest]

Heidi: In another post you said something about the " bad " microbes being mostly

in the whey, which started me to wondering if one should be consuming the whey

with the kefir? am I getting too technical? Or did I misunderstand?

vona

Re: OT:Natural Anti-inflamatories (x-post)

>I'm sure I'm spelling that wrong but hopefully you know what I mean. I

>injured my shoulder a few months ago and it's still not better. From

>what I've read anti-inflamatory medicines like ibuprofin help aid

>healing but I would rather not take something that eats my stomache

>up. I am nursing my baby too so I don't think it would be good for my

>baby either. Do any of you know of something safer I can take? I've

>heard fish oil helps and I take that. Thanks!

>

>Jasmin

Cod liver oil is supposed to be really good. It is a natural

anti-inflammatory.

Berries of all kinds are good too. And fish. And I totally agree about

turmeric ...

good for lots of stuff (helps your brain think better too). I buy it by the

pound

from Penzy's, and the family loves it.

I've also found, in my case, that certain foods really cause or irritate

inflammation.

Gluten does, because I'm allergic to it. But corn, I'm finding more and more,

does

also, esp. if it is whole grain (like popcorn). I suspect this has to do with

Krispin Sullivan's lectins ... they can escape your gut, glom onto your

joints, and then the immune system attacks them. She surmised that this

happens more often after some event, like the flu, disrupts the natural

protections of the nerves (I'd have to re-read it to be sure). I'd guess an

injury could cause the same issue. Anyway, I'd try avoiding the lectin type

foods (grains and legumes) for a bit and see what happens. Rice seems

to be the safest grain ... I know when you are nursing it's hard to change

your diet because you NEED calories. But the more you can get your calories

off good meat and vegies, the better it is, likely, for your joints. Potatoes

have been great for me too, esp. fried in coconut oil!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Heidi: In another post you said something about the " bad " microbes being

mostly in the whey, which started me to wondering if one should be consuming the

whey with the kefir? am I getting too technical? Or did I misunderstand?

>

>vona

Umm .. not " bad " microbes, just " mushy producing " . " mushy " is aesthetic, not a

morality or health issue. Whey can be quite healthy, and the bacteria in it

quite nice to you. However, whey can sometimes cause " mushy cabbage " based on

stories I've heard (I don't use it myself, so I don't have first hand

experience). Mushy cabbage isn't necessarily bad for you either. Actually when

kimchi gets sour and mushy, it makes WONDERFUL soup or pancakes. Some folks

prefer sour mushy kimchi to crisp not-sour kimchi.

A similar issue exists for " slimy " . Normally, I dislike " slimy " bacteria.

However, kombucha makes VERY slimy stuff sometimes, yet tastes good.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Thanks heaps Heidi!!! I figured that I skimmed through the post and didn't get

the whole thing! Now I wont worry and I just eat it all! Yum! I am enjoying

my kefir and soon to have a kombucha starter--Where do I get water grains or are

the really important??

Vona

Re: whey

>Heidi: In another post you said something about the " bad " microbes being

mostly in the whey, which started me to wondering if one should be consuming the

whey with the kefir? am I getting too technical? Or did I misunderstand?

>

>vona

Umm .. not " bad " microbes, just " mushy producing " . " mushy " is aesthetic, not a

morality or health issue. Whey can be quite healthy, and the bacteria in it

quite nice to you. However, whey can sometimes cause " mushy cabbage " based on

stories I've heard (I don't use it myself, so I don't have first hand

experience). Mushy cabbage isn't necessarily bad for you either. Actually when

kimchi gets sour and mushy, it makes WONDERFUL soup or pancakes. Some folks

prefer sour mushy kimchi to crisp not-sour kimchi.

A similar issue exists for " slimy " . Normally, I dislike " slimy " bacteria.

However, kombucha makes VERY slimy stuff sometimes, yet tastes good.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

At 09:48 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote:

>Thanks heaps Heidi!!! I figured that I skimmed through the post and didn't get

the whole thing! Now I wont worry and I just eat it all! Yum! I am enjoying

my kefir and soon to have a kombucha starter--Where do I get water grains or are

the really important??

>

>Vona

Water kefir looks fun, but it never would grow for me :-( But I have enough to

keep me busy!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi: Terry gave me a " recipe " for converting milk grains to water grains so

I'm going to give it a try!!!

Vona

Re: whey

At 09:48 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote:

>Thanks heaps Heidi!!! I figured that I skimmed through the post and didn't

get the whole thing! Now I wont worry and I just eat it all! Yum! I am

enjoying my kefir and soon to have a kombucha starter--Where do I get water

grains or are the really important??

>

>Vona

Water kefir looks fun, but it never would grow for me :-( But I have enough

to keep me busy!

Heidi Jean