Re: fat percentage of diet

[Guest guest]

I asked what *you* are aiming for, just in rough percentages. This

is way more analysis than I want to put into my diet. I'd rather

concentrate on the food than the numbers and can't see me getting this

precise. I'm just curious whether you (and others) eat roughly half

fat calories, two-thirds, or what. That's mainly what I was interested

in dietary journaling software for, just to figure out the rough

percentages of my own diet in case I want to shift a bit and see what

the effect is. I want to know where I'm starting from. Thanks,

Jeanmarie

On Aug 9, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Holt wrote:

> I think it depends really...if you are active with physical work,

> athletic activity, martial arts, or dancing you want to have more

> carbs in your diet. If you are sedentary and do low activity work

> throughout the day you want to do low carbs. For athletes I would

> go 0.36g of protein per a pound of bodyweight, 2-3times more carbs

> than protein, and 1.5 times more fat than carbs in calories. I'm

> 240 pounds so that would be 87g of protein, 174g-261g of carbs, and

> 116-174g of fat. That would be 2088-2958 calories.

>

> If I were sedentary I would probably go 0.36g of protein and carb

> per a pound of bodyweight, and 4 times more fat. That would be 87g

> of protein, 87g of carbs, and 154g of fat. That would be a total of

> 2082 calories.

>

> I don't have a list of the proportion of intramuscular triglyceride

> and glycogen amount that are used for various activities so may I

> not as accurate as I would like to be. It would be nice to have

> that in comparison to the bodyweight and such. If anybody knows

> where to find such information I would like to know.

>

>

>

> From: Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3@...>

> Subject: Re: Skinny on Fats podcast

>

> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 9:36 AM

>

>

>

> So what fat/protein/ carb ratio do you aim for?

>

> Jeanmarie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think Steffanson (sp?) recommended about 1/3 fat calories. -=mark=-

Jeanmarie Todd wrote:

> I asked what *you* are aiming for, just in rough percentages. This

> is way more analysis than I want to put into my diet. I'd rather

> concentrate on the food than the numbers and can't see me getting this

> precise. I'm just curious whether you (and others) eat roughly half

> fat calories, two-thirds, or what. That's mainly what I was interested

> in dietary journaling software for, just to figure out the rough

> percentages of my own diet in case I want to shift a bit and see what

> the effect is. I want to know where I'm starting from. Thanks,

> Jeanmarie

>

> On Aug 9, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Holt wrote:

>

>> I think it depends really...if you are active with physical work,

>> athletic activity, martial arts, or dancing you want to have more

>> carbs in your diet. If you are sedentary and do low activity work

>> throughout the day you want to do low carbs. For athletes I would

>> go 0.36g of protein per a pound of bodyweight, 2-3times more carbs

>> than protein, and 1.5 times more fat than carbs in calories. I'm

>> 240 pounds so that would be 87g of protein, 174g-261g of carbs, and

>> 116-174g of fat. That would be 2088-2958 calories.

>>

>> If I were sedentary I would probably go 0.36g of protein and carb

>> per a pound of bodyweight, and 4 times more fat. That would be 87g

>> of protein, 87g of carbs, and 154g of fat. That would be a total of

>> 2082 calories.

>>

>> I don't have a list of the proportion of intramuscular triglyceride

>> and glycogen amount that are used for various activities so may I

>> not as accurate as I would like to be. It would be nice to have

>> that in comparison to the bodyweight and such. If anybody knows

>> where to find such information I would like to know.

>>

>>

>>

>> From: Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3@...>

>> Subject: Re: Skinny on Fats podcast

>>

>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 9:36 AM

>>

>>

>>

>> So what fat/protein/ carb ratio do you aim for?

>>

>> Jeanmarie

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I've tracked it on fitday, I eat about 70-75% fat, 20-25% protein, and

5-10% carbs. My caloric intake varies widely- between 2000-3000 calories a day-

and I'm a moderately active woman who's breastfeeding a toddler. I'm also about

25 lbs overweight, but steadily losing 1-2 lbs a week.

From: thetasig@...

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:51:12 -0700

Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

I think Steffanson (sp?) recommended about 1/3 fat calories.

-=mark=-

Jeanmarie Todd wrote:

> I asked what *you* are aiming for, just in rough percentages. This

> is way more analysis than I want to put into my diet. I'd rather

> concentrate on the food than the numbers and can't see me getting this

> precise. I'm just curious whether you (and others) eat roughly half

> fat calories, two-thirds, or what. That's mainly what I was interested

> in dietary journaling software for, just to figure out the rough

> percentages of my own diet in case I want to shift a bit and see what

> the effect is. I want to know where I'm starting from. Thanks,

> Jeanmarie

>

> On Aug 9, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Holt wrote:

>

>> I think it depends really...if you are active with physical work,

>> athletic activity, martial arts, or dancing you want to have more

>> carbs in your diet. If you are sedentary and do low activity work

>> throughout the day you want to do low carbs. For athletes I would

>> go 0.36g of protein per a pound of bodyweight, 2-3times more carbs

>> than protein, and 1.5 times more fat than carbs in calories. I'm

>> 240 pounds so that would be 87g of protein, 174g-261g of carbs, and

>> 116-174g of fat. That would be 2088-2958 calories.

>>

>> If I were sedentary I would probably go 0.36g of protein and carb

>> per a pound of bodyweight, and 4 times more fat. That would be 87g

>> of protein, 87g of carbs, and 154g of fat. That would be a total of

>> 2082 calories.

>>

>> I don't have a list of the proportion of intramuscular triglyceride

>> and glycogen amount that are used for various activities so may I

>> not as accurate as I would like to be. It would be nice to have

>> that in comparison to the bodyweight and such. If anybody knows

>> where to find such information I would like to know.

>>

>>

>>

>> From: Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3@...>

>> Subject: Re: Skinny on Fats podcast

>>

>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 9:36 AM

>>

>>

>>

>> So what fat/protein/ carb ratio do you aim for?

>>

>> Jeanmarie

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It may help to listen to your instincts too.  A couple simple things you can do

to curve your hunger and feel satisfied after eating are as follows:

Here's a simple strategy to seperate the typs of food you eat:

Protein: Meat, dairy, eggs, fish or shellfish.  I think when it comes to protein

intake you should only consider animal products as a proper source of protein

and calculate it into your diet.  Protein digest better as with a complete amino

acid profile.  One thing animal base protein have that no fruit has is

carnosine, which is said to have anti-aging properties.  In one meal 4 eggs, 3

glasses of milk, or a 4 oz steak would be adequate.  For snacks or in

replacement for water I would recommend drinking raw milk throughout the day. 

Eggs will really help with your appetite too.  One of the healthiest cultures in

the world, the Masai, had their Muran consume 7 quarts of raw milk throughout

the day.  They had between 3000-4500 calories a day and they weighed 155 pounds

at 6'6 " !

Carbohydrates: I think it's better to eat starches as they are more filling and

they take longer to digest so they take away hunger craving.  If you have a low

activity lifestyle your appetite will tell you when to stop eating the

starches.  It's also better for the immune system.  Simple carbs such as too

much fruit and quick digesting complex carbs such as straight up glucose may

cause bacteria in the stomach and you will breath it out, causing bacteria.  I

experimented with a 4th of a cup of unheated honey before I went to bed and I

even brushed my teeth.  I woke up and I had a huge tooth ache and felt sick. 

You should only have a little bit of simple carbs.  Simple carbs also spike your

insulin and trick your body into thinking it is still hungry, causing you to

binge.  For simple carbs I would recommend small amounts of unheated honey as it

is packed with enzymes and helps with digestion.  It will also boost your energy

level.  You'll

also get your simple carbs from milk lactose.

Fats: You'd want to have dairyfat, egg fat, meat fat, and oil fat.  Have sources

that are about half saturated fat and half monounsaturated fat.  If you were to

have one glass of milk, 2 eggs, and 2 strips of bacon, and butter with sourdough

toast that would be about 45g of fat in one meal. With all that fat and protein

the lactose from the milk and the slice of sourdough bread may be filling

enough.Add some unheated honey to that bread and you would have a complete

meal.  Maybe add a lactofermented beverage such as sauerkraut, as raw cabbage is

know to have a lot of nutritonal benefits that may not exist most other foods,

especially meat.

>

> From: Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3mac (DOT) com>

> Subject: Re: Skinny on Fats podcast

>

> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 9:36 AM

>

>

>

> So what fat/protein/ carb ratio do you aim for?

>

> Jeanmarie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> That's mainly what I was interested

> in dietary journaling software for, just to figure out the rough

> percentages of my own diet in

> case I want to shift a bit and see what

> the effect is. I want to know where I'm starting from. Thanks,

> Jeanmarie

I count grams, not percent of calories. I think it approaches 60% fat, 25%

protein, 15% carb.

I am into fat loss so I eat:

protein grams = target weight in pounds, divided by two (125 / 2 = 60g)

carb grams = 1/2 or 2/3 times the protein grams

fat grams = 1.5 or 2 times the protein grams

I find it way easier to count grams to make sure I get enough and not too much

of each. It only took a few days with Fitday to figure out the grams in my

staple foods.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Now we're talking! I suspect I'm getting closer to this myself, though

some days heavier on the carbs and less fat. So fun to read that

you're losing weight on this! If that doesn't put the low-fat diet

gurus to shame, I don't know what does. That's a lucky toddler, too.

Do you mind if I ask, was that mostly pregnancy weight or a long-

standing issue? (Ignore if too personal.)

I lost 15 pounds this spring from stress (and I *never* thought I was

the " type " to lose my appetite) but put it back on again, with about

5 more pounds, from carb indulgence. I think down 10 from here would

probably be most comfortable, but I don't want to " diet, " just do my

WAP eating and adjust the fat/carbs ratio a bit more in favor of the

former. You're my inspiration, Amy!

Thanks,

Jeanmarie

On Aug 9, 2009, at 8:00 PM, Amy Sikes-Dorman wrote:

>

> When I've tracked it on fitday, I eat about 70-75% fat, 20-25%

> protein, and 5-10% carbs. My caloric intake varies widely- between

> 2000-3000 calories a day- and I'm a moderately active woman who's

> breastfeeding a toddler. I'm also about 25 lbs overweight, but

> steadily losing 1-2 lbs a week.

>

>

> From: thetasig@...

> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:51:12 -0700

> Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

>

> I think Steffanson (sp?) recommended about 1/3 fat calories. -=mark=-

>

> Jeanmarie Todd wrote:

>

> > I asked what *you* are aiming for, just in rough percentages. This

>

> > is way more analysis than I want to put into my diet. I'd rather

>

> > concentrate on the food than the numbers and can't see me getting

> this

>

> > precise. I'm just curious whether you (and others) eat roughly half

>

> > fat calories, two-thirds, or what. That's mainly what I was

> interested

>

> > in dietary journaling software for, just to figure out the rough

>

> > percentages of my own diet in case I want to shift a bit and see

> what

>

> > the effect is. I want to know where I'm starting from. Thanks,

>

> > Jeanmarie

> ,___

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Connie. Based on your feedback I may try FitDay, too. I'm not

worried about measuring micronutrients in my diet (someone said FitDay

was weak on those) because obsessing over micrograms isn't how I like

to approach food, and I think if I concentrate on eating the right

things, the details will work out.

Yes, counting grams is typical and easiest for tracking food intake.

I'm not concerned about counting calories per se, just using that to

figure out the basic proportions in my diet. When you multiply grams

by 4 cal/g for protein and carbohydrates, and 9 cal/g for fats, you

can see what that works out to for rough percentages, which is what

FitDay will do for me, I expect. Your rule of thumb for how to

proportion protein, carbs and fat looks useful and accords with what

I've heard elsewhere. Thanks!

Jeanmarie

On Aug 9, 2009, at 11:00 PM, cbrown2008 wrote:

> > That's mainly what I was interested

> > in dietary journaling software for, just to figure out the rough

> > percentages of my own diet in

> > case I want to shift a bit and see what

> > the effect is. I want to know where I'm starting from. Thanks,

> > Jeanmarie

>

> I count grams, not percent of calories. I think it approaches 60%

> fat, 25% protein, 15% carb.

>

> I am into fat loss so I eat:

>

> protein grams = target weight in pounds, divided by two (125 / 2 =

> 60g)

> carb grams = 1/2 or 2/3 times the protein grams

> fat grams = 1.5 or 2 times the protein grams

>

> I find it way easier to count grams to make sure I get enough and

> not too much of each. It only took a few days with Fitday to figure

> out the grams in my staple foods.

>

> Connie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of Price's work to try to

narrow things down to one perfect example to follow. As I see it, the

value of his work is the principles he derived from the essential

foods and dietary practices that the different cultures had in common.

We can all follow the principles he derived and get the benefits

without trying to replicate a particular culture living under possibly

very different circumstances. How you want to combine those in your

own diet is of course up to you.

As to " better to eat starches as they are more filling and they take

longer to digest so they take away hunger craving. If you have a low

activity lifestyle your appetite will tell you when to stop eating

starches. " Hardly.

If America's vast experiment in starch-eating and fat-shunning for the

past several decades has taught us anything, it's that starches prime

the appetite for more starches, they contribute to most or all modern

degenerative diseases via the insulin response, and they are not, in

fact, essential to life, let alone a good foundation for a healthful

diet. They often lead to metabolic syndrome. How much it takes to do

that to a person may vary considerably, it seems from the evidence

I've seen.

If by starches you mean complex carbohydrates, compared to straight

sugar, then yes, they digest a bit more slowly but they still add to

the total sugar intake because that's what they digest to: glucose.

And fats and proteins are slower to digest, as are combined meals,

which is how people really eat. Fats don't provoke an insulin response

at all, whereas very high levels of protein can do so. Of course,

properly preparing grains improves their nutrient profile and

digestibility, as I'm sure you know. As far as I understand, the amino

acid profile of a protein doesn't affect digestion, just utilization,

if the missing ones aren't supplied before too long.

Cheers,

Jeanmarie

On Aug 9, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Holt wrote:

> One of the healthiest cultures in the world, the Masai, had their

> Muran consume 7 quarts of raw milk throughout the day. They had

> between 3000-4500 calories a day and they weighed 155 pounds at 6'6 " !

>

> Carbohydrates: I think it's better to eat starches as they are more

> filling and they take longer to digest so they take away hunger

> craving. If you have a low activity lifestyle your appetite will

> tell you when to stop eating the starches. It's also better for the

> immune system. Simple carbs such as too much fruit and quick

> digesting complex carbs such as straight up glucose may cause

> bacteria in the stomach and you will breath it out, causing

> bacteria. I experimented with a 4th of a cup of unheated honey

> before I went to bed and I even brushed my teeth. I woke up and I

> had a huge tooth ache and felt sick. You should only have a little

> bit of simple carbs. Simple carbs also spike your insulin and trick

> your body into thinking it is still hungry, causing you to binge.

> For simple carbs I would recommend small amounts of unheated honey

> as it is packed with enzymes and helps with digestion. It will also

> boost your energy level. You'll

> also get your simple carbs from milk lactose.

>

> Fats: You'd want to have dairyfat, egg fat, meat fat, and oil fat.

> Have sources that are about half saturated fat and half

> monounsaturated fat. If you were to have one glass of milk, 2 eggs,

> and 2 strips of bacon, and butter with sourdough toast that would be

> about 45g of fat in one meal. With all that fat and protein the

> lactose from the milk and the slice of sourdough bread may be

> filling enough.Add some unheated honey to that bread and you would

> have a complete meal. Maybe add a lactofermented beverage such as

> sauerkraut, as raw cabbage is know to have a lot of nutritonal

> benefits that may not exist most other foods, especially meat.

>

>

>

> >

>

> > From: Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3mac (DOT) com>

>

> > Subject: Re: Skinny on Fats podcast

>

> >

>

> > Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 9:36 AM

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > So what fat/protein/ carb ratio do you aim for?

>

> >

>

> > Jeanmarie

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

> can see what that works out to for rough percentages, which is what

> FitDay will do for me, I expect. Your rule of thumb for how to

> proportion protein, carbs and fat looks useful and accords with what

> I've heard elsewhere. Thanks!

> Jeanmarie

Yes, that's how I use Fitday too. Go on once in a while and see where the

ballpark numbers are.

I love watching my food this way and I also lose 1-2 pounds easily per week,

after long periods of nothing with other macronutrient mixes. It is so fun! I

have real cream soups in my diet again. Boy are they good.

Connie

[Guest guest]

Hi, JeanMarie,

Yes, you're right- the fact that I am losing weight while still feeling

wonderful and basically eating as much as I want is great- and absolutely

putting the low fat crowd to shame. I'm never hungry and I feel fantastic!

I tend to count carbs during the day to make sure I'm between 75-100 a day, and

to make it easier, I usually do 20 carbs at each of the three meals and then a

15 carb snack. I find that it's really easy to do and doesn't require any deep

thought or effort once you get used to it.

I was a bit overweight before I had my daughter and was back to my pre-pregnancy

weight quickly after I had her, but it rebounded shortly thereafter. I wasn't

eating correctly and ate a ton of grains and refined carbs because life when

you've had a baby is hectic, and people keep bringing you food that you wouldn't

necessarily eat otherwise.

But yes, eating according to WAP/NT ideals and taking a bit of time to get some

exercise has made a huge difference. I have definitely noticed that my energy

is up and I can keep up with my daughter physically and have more patience for

her too.

Amy

From: jaytee3@...

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 10:29:57 -0700

Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

Now we're talking! I suspect I'm getting closer to this

myself, though

some days heavier on the carbs and less fat. So fun to read that

you're losing weight on this! If that doesn't put the low-fat diet

gurus to shame, I don't know what does. That's a lucky toddler, too.

Do you mind if I ask, was that mostly pregnancy weight or a long-

standing issue? (Ignore if too personal.)

I lost 15 pounds this spring from stress (and I *never* thought I was

the " type " to lose my appetite) but put it back on again, with about

5 more pounds, from carb indulgence. I think down 10 from here would

probably be most comfortable, but I don't want to " diet, " just do my

WAP eating and adjust the fat/carbs ratio a bit more in favor of the

former. You're my inspiration, Amy!

Thanks,

Jeanmarie

On Aug 9, 2009, at 8:00 PM, Amy Sikes-Dorman wrote:

>

> When I've tracked it on fitday, I eat about 70-75% fat, 20-25%

> protein, and 5-10% carbs. My caloric intake varies widely- between

> 2000-3000 calories a day- and I'm a moderately active woman who's

> breastfeeding a toddler. I'm also about 25 lbs overweight, but

> steadily losing 1-2 lbs a week.

>

>

> From: thetasig@...

> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:51:12 -0700

> Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

>

> I think Steffanson (sp?) recommended about 1/3 fat calories. -=mark=-

>

> Jeanmarie Todd wrote:

>

> > I asked what *you* are aiming for, just in rough percentages. This

>

> > is way more analysis than I want to put into my diet. I'd rather

>

> > concentrate on the food than the numbers and can't see me getting

> this

>

> > precise. I'm just curious whether you (and others) eat roughly half

>

> > fat calories, two-thirds, or what. That's mainly what I was

> interested

>

> > in dietary journaling software for, just to figure out the rough

>

> > percentages of my own diet in case I want to shift a bit and see

> what

>

> > the effect is. I want to know where I'm starting from. Thanks,

>

> > Jeanmarie

> ,___

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds wonderful. Thanks for sharing. Were you eating WAP-style during

your pregnancy? You should share baby photos in Wise Traditions! I

love seeing their Healthy Baby Gallery.

Cheers,

Jeanmarie

On Aug 10, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Amy Sikes-Dorman wrote:

>

> Hi, JeanMarie,

>

> Yes, you're right- the fact that I am losing weight while still

> feeling wonderful and basically eating as much as I want is great-

> and absolutely putting the low fat crowd to shame. I'm never

> hungry and I feel fantastic! I tend to count carbs during the day to

> make sure I'm between 75-100 a day, and to make it easier, I usually

> do 20 carbs at each of the three meals and then a 15 carb snack. I

> find that it's really easy to do and doesn't require any deep

> thought or effort once you get used to it.

>

> I was a bit overweight before I had my daughter and was back to my

> pre-pregnancy weight quickly after I had her, but it rebounded

> shortly thereafter. I wasn't eating correctly and ate a ton of

> grains and refined carbs because life when you've had a baby is

> hectic, and people keep bringing you food that you wouldn't

> necessarily eat otherwise.

>

> But yes, eating according to WAP/NT ideals and taking a bit of time

> to get some exercise has made a huge difference. I have definitely

> noticed that my energy is up and I can keep up with my daughter

> physically and have more patience for her too.

>

> Amy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am personally trying to find an optimal approach for athletes and active

people.  I am also trying to find an approach for sedentary people.  One other

thing that is true is that thinking seems to prefer burning carbs.  So a higher

carbohydrate intake may be good for just thinking.  One of the sites I read

states that the body burns 33% of it's energy stores as carbs during the day in

order to maintain basic functions and the brain.  So a 33% carb intake would be

adequate for a sedentary individual.

I was reading WAPF's adventure in macronutrient land and even lawyer had high

carb.  Most groups ate high carb and had about the same ratios of macronutrient

intake on that list.  The Muran warriors had a lot of fat and they were very

lean and light.  I don't know what to make of it but I don't feel a craving for

a lot of carbs when I have quality fat and protein.

I think that starch consumption with a quality higher fat consumption will blunt

hunger cravings.  I feel I lose my appetite quicker when some starch and a lot

of saturated fat is included.

I was reading research that straight up glucose is as harmful for the leukocyte

levels in the body as fructose and sucrose.  I prefer starches over simple

carb.  I'm up in the air for lactose in raw milk though, because raw milk has

properties that boost the lekocyte levels in the body.  Only other thing I would

prefer more is glycogen from meat over starches.

>

> >

>

> > From: Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3mac (DOT) com>

>

> > Subject: Re: Skinny on Fats podcast

>

> >

>

> > Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 9:36 AM

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > So what fat/protein/ carb ratio do you aim for?

>

> >

>

> > Jeanmarie

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dan,

You're very well read and you introduce a lot of good information. I wish you

would read Taubes' summary of the evidence in Good Calories, Bad Calories,

however. He completely refutes the idea that you need a minimum number of carbs

to fuel the brain. From his presentation, it seemed to me that the more you

could minimize the period of time during which your insulin is spiked, the

better (think fewer, low carb meals).

Since I had put on just a few pounds with carb and fat heavy three square meals

since starting WAPF, I did the following, which reduced my abdominal fat in

short order: 1) cut out granola or toast from breakfast, I do include a large

glass of milk with bacon and eggs. This allowed me to 2) skip lunch most days,

whereas with a moderately high carb breakfast, I was hungry again in an hour. I

don't snack throughout the day anymore--no need to constantly spike my insulin

and make me hungry. 3) Avoid carbs for most, but not all dinners. I can't go

without mashed potatoes with my roast chicken, but I don't build my meals around

potatoes or other carbs most of the time. For instance, if I have a hamburger, I

usually subsitute lettuce leaves for the bread. I eat as much as I want. I do

have ice cream from my dairy farmer a couple times a week for desert, usually

after days I've been to the gym.

I only go to the gym twice a week, but I play basketball intensely for 3-4 hours

when I do, so I burn a lot of calories. I always assumed I need a lunch with

carbs, and when I was a carb-heavy vegan, that always gave me lots of energy to

run the floor. As it turns out, I have as much energy without lunch and without

carbs even for a long workout. I've experimented with a glass of milk shortly

before exercising, and found if anything it slows me down. I think the whole

advice industry on carbs and workouts for athletes is out of date and rooted in

bad assumptions that have been challenged over the years, as Taubes describes.

Your mileage may vary, but to me this matches the lifestyle that most

hunter-gatherers led--usually a quick breakfast, then a lot of activity without

food: hunting (or foraging and cooking for women--in some instances foraging may

have encouraged snacking, but depending on the food that was not always possible

and there were often cultural limitations on it), followed by a big meal at the

end of the day. I think we've all been misled by this idea that we should snack

throughout the day and we interfere with our normal ability to go long periods

without hunger by doing so (see Taubes on how carbs tend to make you ravenously

hungry, so that even little carb snacks make you crave more later). I think the

approach of " staving off hunger " with snacks is necessary only under a regime

where you're always hungry from carbs, so to preemptively snack keeps the

insulin from dropping precipitously--then you have to do it again and again.

It's like methadone for a heroin addict--not a sane strategy for dealing with

insulin issues. And that is how they tell you to deal with diabetes! Pre-Wapf,

when my wife was borderline for gestational diabetes, they sent her to a class

where they told here how to keep eating carbs throughout the day. She had no

idea how she was supposed to eat that many carbs and promptly put on additional

weight until her other doctor told here to cut out the diet. If type II diabetes

is a disregulation of our normal metabolism, then this diet makes it worse,

while merely treating the symptoms to avoid spikes and crashes.

Best,

Bill

>

> I am personally trying to find an optimal approach for athletes and active

people.  I am also trying to find an approach for sedentary people.  One other

thing that is true is that thinking seems to prefer burning carbs.  So a higher

carbohydrate intake may be good for just thinking.  One of the sites I read

states that the body burns 33% of it's energy stores as carbs during the day in

order to maintain basic functions and the brain.  So a 33% carb intake would be

adequate for a sedentary individual.

>

> I was reading WAPF's adventure in macronutrient land and even lawyer had high

carb.  Most groups ate high carb and had about the same ratios of macronutrient

intake on that list.  The Muran warriors had a lot of fat and they were very

lean and light.  I don't know what to make of it but I don't feel a craving for

a lot of carbs when I have quality fat and protein.

>

> I think that starch consumption with a quality higher fat consumption will

blunt hunger cravings.  I feel I lose my appetite quicker when some starch and a

lot of saturated fat is included.

>

> I was reading research that straight up glucose is as harmful for the

leukocyte levels in the body as fructose and sucrose.  I prefer starches over

simple carb.  I'm up in the air for lactose in raw milk though, because raw milk

has properties that boost the lekocyte levels in the body.  Only other thing I

would prefer more is glycogen from meat over starches.

[Guest guest]

After the first trimester (when I could just about only eat cheerios and potato

chips- ugh), I did try to eat mostly WAPF.

.....And never ask a mom for pictures of her child without being prepared to get

them. These are older (mostly) but I only had time to load a couple.

http://audreysd.shutterfly.com/

From: jaytee3@...

Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:31:17 -0700

Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

Sounds wonderful. Thanks for sharing. Were you eating

WAP-style during

your pregnancy? You should share baby photos in Wise Traditions! I

love seeing their Healthy Baby Gallery.

Cheers,

Jeanmarie

On Aug 10, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Amy Sikes-Dorman wrote:

>

> Hi, JeanMarie,

>

> Yes, you're right- the fact that I am losing weight while still

> feeling wonderful and basically eating as much as I want is great-

> and absolutely putting the low fat crowd to shame. I'm never

> hungry and I feel fantastic! I tend to count carbs during the day to

> make sure I'm between 75-100 a day, and to make it easier, I usually

> do 20 carbs at each of the three meals and then a 15 carb snack. I

> find that it's really easy to do and doesn't require any deep

> thought or effort once you get used to it.

>

> I was a bit overweight before I had my daughter and was back to my

> pre-pregnancy weight quickly after I had her, but it rebounded

> shortly thereafter. I wasn't eating correctly and ate a ton of

> grains and refined carbs because life when you've had a baby is

> hectic, and people keep bringing you food that you wouldn't

> necessarily eat otherwise.

>

> But yes, eating according to WAP/NT ideals and taking a bit of time

> to get some exercise has made a huge difference. I have definitely

> noticed that my energy is up and I can keep up with my daughter

> physically and have more patience for her too.

>

> Amy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bill, excellent post. I started reading Taubes' book (I'd read the

long NYT Mag articles that preceded it, What If It's All Been a Big,

Fat Lie?, and The Soft Science of Dietary Fat) and got distracted by

other reading, but I know he has done the research like nobody else.

My experience echos yours. If I eat a good breakfast (low carb, high

fat and moderate protein), I can often go until mid-afternoon without

anything else. Not even thinking about food. Often I end up eating

really just two meals a day. If I eat carbs, I want more carbs. And

then I tend towards hypoglycemia. Cauliflower doesn't have that

effect, but cookies and bread sure do. I think you're right that the

" snack through the day " advice is based on the carb paradigm, as is

the " athletes need carbs " advice.

When I was a runner and especially when I trained for my one marathon,

I found books by champion ultra-marathoners (Stu Mittleman? and

another guy) that were anti-sugar, pro-fat. I was just getting started

with WAPF in those days and was getting lots of " you must eat gels

throughout your run to keep from hitting the wall " type of advice from

the running community, so I ended up doing something half-assed in

between the two. I never hit a wall on my marathon but was painfully

slow, which was nothing new for me! If I were crazy enough to do a

marathon again, I'd definitely go the no-sugar route. It's just hard

to avoid the training table at the end of a run when you train with a

group as I did.

And like you I can't quite give up potatoes, which are a primo

delivery device for butter, in my opinion. I only have them 1-2 times

a week so that's not so bad I think.

Thanks,

Jeanmarie

On Aug 11, 2009, at 9:11 AM, lynchwt wrote:

> Dan,

> You're very well read and you introduce a lot of good information. I

> wish you would read Taubes' summary of the evidence in Good

> Calories, Bad Calories, however. He completely refutes the idea that

> you need a minimum number of carbs to fuel the brain. From his

> presentation, it seemed to me that the more you could minimize the

> period of time during which your insulin is spiked, the better

> (think fewer, low carb meals).

>

> Since I had put on just a few pounds with carb and fat heavy three

> square meals since starting WAPF, I did the following, which reduced

> my abdominal fat in short order: 1) cut out granola or toast from

> breakfast, I do include a large glass of milk with bacon and eggs.

> This allowed me to 2) skip lunch most days, whereas with a

> moderately high carb breakfast, I was hungry again in an hour. I

> don't snack throughout the day anymore--no need to constantly spike

> my insulin and make me hungry. 3) Avoid carbs for most, but not all

> dinners. I can't go without mashed potatoes with my roast chicken,

> but I don't build my meals around potatoes or other carbs most of

> the time. For instance, if I have a hamburger, I usually subsitute

> lettuce leaves for the bread. I eat as much as I want. I do have ice

> cream from my dairy farmer a couple times a week for desert, usually

> after days I've been to the gym.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Upon further reading if you consume a higher fat diet your body will just feed

off the fat rather than the glycogen.  It's still better to consume some carbs,

atleast 50-100g a day to spare expensive protein or muscle from being

metabolized.  I think only 10% of fat can be converted to glucose anyhow. 

During lower intensities activities fat is by far the preffered source of

energy.  I think if you are sedentary and have a high fat diet 75% of the energy

you expend will be taken from fat.

It depends on the source of starch, how much you had and when you had it.  It's

better to take in higher ratio of carbs before a higher intensity activity

rather than after it because the body metabolized more carbs before and during a

higher intensity activity, and metabolized about 57% of it's energy from fat

after an activity.  On days you don't play sports you can go low carb and it

will actually help with your energy levels on the days that you do play.

I don't think granola, toast, or hamburger buns are good sources of starches. 

Your body will have a difficult time digesting it.  It would be better to have

genuine sourdough bread as the gluten has been fermented out so it is much

easier to digest and better for your energy levels.  Unheated honey will also

assist with absorption.  Potatoes are an excellent choice.  The only problem

with low carbs is a potassium deficiency.  You want 3.3g of potassium a day. 

You can cook 1-1.5oz of sundried dulse in your bone broth in order to get the

amount of potassium you need.  You can make ice cream that is healthy to eat. 

Just use healthy ingrediants such as raw milk, vanilla extract, unheated honey,

cacao syrup, macademia nuts, rapadura sugarcane, etc.

You may not have had good results with the raw milk because it was hard for your

body to digest.  Most milk has a higher proportion of A1 casein in it and it

take several hours to completely digest.  You may prefer to have goats milk,

coconut milk, jersey cow milk, or fermented/kefired milk.  I think those would

all be good choices while you are working out.  The Muran drank milk throughout

the day and they were very healthy.  I think you can have it in the place of

water.  Raw Milk has properties in it that help with your energy levels, may

stabalize insulin, and the lactose may not be harmful for you health like other

sources of simple carbs.

From: lynchwt <lynchwt@...>

Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 9:11 AM

 

Dan,

You're very well read and you introduce a lot of good information. I wish you

would read Taubes' summary of the evidence in Good Calories, Bad Calories,

however. He completely refutes the idea that you need a minimum number of carbs

to fuel the brain. From his presentation, it seemed to me that the more you

could minimize the period of time during which your insulin is spiked, the

better (think fewer, low carb meals).

Since I had put on just a few pounds with carb and fat heavy three square meals

since starting WAPF, I did the following, which reduced my abdominal fat in

short order: 1) cut out granola or toast from breakfast, I do include a large

glass of milk with bacon and eggs. This allowed me to 2) skip lunch most days,

whereas with a moderately high carb breakfast, I was hungry again in an hour. I

don't snack throughout the day anymore--no need to constantly spike my insulin

and make me hungry. 3) Avoid carbs for most, but not all dinners. I can't go

without mashed potatoes with my roast chicken, but I don't build my meals around

potatoes or other carbs most of the time. For instance, if I have a hamburger, I

usually subsitute lettuce leaves for the bread. I eat as much as I want. I do

have ice cream from my dairy farmer a couple times a week for desert, usually

after days I've been to the gym.

I only go to the gym twice a week, but I play basketball intensely for 3-4 hours

when I do, so I burn a lot of calories. I always assumed I need a lunch with

carbs, and when I was a carb-heavy vegan, that always gave me lots of energy to

run the floor. As it turns out, I have as much energy without lunch and without

carbs even for a long workout. I've experimented with a glass of milk shortly

before exercising, and found if anything it slows me down. I think the whole

advice industry on carbs and workouts for athletes is out of date and rooted in

bad assumptions that have been challenged over the years, as Taubes describes.

Your mileage may vary, but to me this matches the lifestyle that most

hunter-gatherers led--usually a quick breakfast, then a lot of activity without

food: hunting (or foraging and cooking for women--in some instances foraging may

have encouraged snacking, but depending on the food that was not always possible

and there were often cultural limitations on it), followed by a big meal at the

end of the day. I think we've all been misled by this idea that we should snack

throughout the day and we interfere with our normal ability to go long periods

without hunger by doing so (see Taubes on how carbs tend to make you ravenously

hungry, so that even little carb snacks make you crave more later). I think the

approach of " staving off hunger " with snacks is necessary only under a regime

where you're always hungry from carbs, so to preemptively snack keeps the

insulin from dropping precipitously- -then you have to do it again and again.

It's like methadone for a heroin addict--not a sane strategy for dealing with

insulin issues. And that is how they tell you to deal with diabetes! Pre-Wapf,

when my wife was borderline for gestational diabetes, they sent her to a class

where they told here how to keep eating carbs throughout the day. She had no

idea how she was supposed to eat that many carbs and promptly put on additional

weight until her other doctor told here to cut out the diet. If type II diabetes

is a disregulation of our normal metabolism, then this diet makes it worse,

while merely treating the symptoms to avoid spikes and crashes.

Best,

Bill

--- In , Holt <danthemanholt@ ...>

wrote:

>

> I am personally trying to find an optimal approach for athletes and active

people.  I am also trying to find an approach for sedentary people.  One other

thing that is true is that thinking seems to prefer burning carbs.  So a higher

carbohydrate intake may be good for just thinking.  One of the sites I read

states that the body burns 33% of it's energy stores as carbs during the day in

order to maintain basic functions and the brain.  So a 33% carb intake would be

adequate for a sedentary individual.

>

> I was reading WAPF's adventure in macronutrient land and even lawyer had high

carb.  Most groups ate high carb and had about the same ratios of macronutrient

intake on that list.  The Muran warriors had a lot of fat and they were very

lean and light.  I don't know what to make of it but I don't feel a craving for

a lot of carbs when I have quality fat and protein.

>

> I think that starch consumption with a quality higher fat consumption will

blunt hunger cravings.  I feel I lose my appetite quicker when some starch and a

lot of saturated fat is included.

>

> I was reading research that straight up glucose is as harmful for the

leukocyte levels in the body as fructose and sucrose.  I prefer starches over

simple carb.  I'm up in the air for lactose in raw milk though, because raw milk

has properties that boost the lekocyte levels in the body.  Only other thing I

would prefer more is glycogen from meat over starches.

[Guest guest]

I don't think you can make a blanket statement about how many carb

grams someone should consume a day, at least not with any validity.

There are a lot of factors to consider and you don't know everyone's

circumstances. Again, Price found many quite different variations of

traditional diets that produced good results.

On Aug 11, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Holt wrote:

> Upon further reading if you consume a higher fat diet your body will

> just feed off the fat rather than the glycogen. It's still better

> to consume some carbs, atleast 50-100g a day to spare expensive

> protein or muscle from being metabolized. I think only 10% of fat

> can be converted to glucose anyhow. During lower intensities

> activities fat is by far the preffered source of energy. I think if

> you are sedentary and have a high fat diet 75% of the energy you

> expend will be taken from fat.

>

>

>

> RECENT ACTIVITY

> 20

> New Members

> Visit Your Group

> Give Back

> for Good

> Get inspired

> by a good cause.

> Y! Toolbar

> Get it Free!

> easy 1-click access

> to your groups.

>

> Start a group

> in 3 easy steps.

> Connect with others.

> .

>

>

[Guest guest]

You're right, everyone is different but our bodies all work the same basicly. 

There may be minor differences, allergies, or ailments certain individuals

carry.  Price studied a low carb group, the Inuit.  The Inuit had some forms of

carbs though.  They had the glycogen from the meat they eat.  They had atleast

20g of glycogen from meat a day.  They also had a higher percentage of fat and

protein to convert to glycogen.  Most likely 15% protein, 5% carbs, and 80%

fat.  Your body can convert 10% of fat to carbs and 60% of protein to carbs. 

It's more expensive to do that and you can more effectively utilize carbs for

glycogen burning.  It may also be more taxing for the organs and use up vitamins

and minerals in order to metabolize the excess protein.  They also had a very

low activity lifestyle so a low carb diet was useful.  They had a high number of

fat soluble vitamins

The Muran were another group Price studied.  They would probably be the opposite

of the Inuit.  They had a higher activity lifestyle.  They had 7 quarts of raw

milk a day.  They had about 375g of carbs a day.  They were as healthy as the

Inuit.  They had 224g of protein a day but they also had a high number of fat

soluble vitamins and minerals.

It's not ideal to go low carb because you may lose muscle and it gets expensive

to eat that much protein.

> Upon further reading if you consume a higher fat diet your body will

> just feed off the fat rather than the glycogen. It's still better

> to consume some carbs, atleast 50-100g a day to spare expensive

> protein or muscle from being metabolized. I think only 10% of fat

> can be converted to glucose anyhow. During lower intensities

> activities fat is by far the preffered source of energy. I think if

> you are sedentary and have a high fat diet 75% of the energy you

> expend will be taken from fat.

>

>

>

> RECENT ACTIVITY

> 20

> New Members

> Visit Your Group

> Give Back

> for Good

> Get inspired

> by a good cause.

> Y! Toolbar

> Get it Free!

> easy 1-click access

> to your groups.

>

> Start a group

> in 3 easy steps.

> Connect with others.

> .

>

>

[Guest guest]

Who are the Muran? Where do they live? Do they still live there?

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Holt <danthemanholt@...>wrote:

>

>

> You're right, everyone is different but our bodies all work the same

> basicly. There may be minor differences, allergies, or ailments certain

> individuals carry. Price studied a low carb group, the Inuit. The Inuit

> had some forms of carbs though. They had the glycogen from the meat they

> eat. They had atleast 20g of glycogen from meat a day. They also had a

> higher percentage of fat and protein to convert to glycogen. Most likely

> 15% protein, 5% carbs, and 80% fat. Your body can convert 10% of fat to

> carbs and 60% of protein to carbs. It's more expensive to do that and you

> can more effectively utilize carbs for glycogen burning. It may also be

> more taxing for the organs and use up vitamins and minerals in order to

> metabolize the excess protein. They also had a very low activity lifestyle

> so a low carb diet was useful. They had a high number of fat soluble

> vitamins

>

> The Muran were another group Price studied. They would probably be the

> opposite of the Inuit. They had a higher activity lifestyle. They had 7

> quarts of raw milk a day. They had about 375g of carbs a day. They were as

> healthy as the Inuit. They had 224g of protein a day but they also had a

> high number of fat soluble vitamins and minerals.

>

> It's not ideal to go low carb because you may lose muscle and it gets

> expensive to eat that much protein.

>

>

>

>

> > Upon further reading if you consume a higher fat diet your body will

>

> > just feed off the fat rather than the glycogen. It's still better

>

> > to consume some carbs, atleast 50-100g a day to spare expensive

>

> > protein or muscle from being metabolized. I think only 10% of fat

>

> > can be converted to glucose anyhow. During lower intensities

>

> > activities fat is by far the preffered source of energy. I think if

>

> > you are sedentary and have a high fat diet 75% of the energy you

>

> > expend will be taken from fat.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > RECENT ACTIVITY

>

> > 20

>

> > New Members

>

> > Visit Your Group

>

> > Give Back

>

> > for Good

>

> > Get inspired

>

> > by a good cause.

>

> > Y! Toolbar

>

> > Get it Free!

>

> > easy 1-click access

>

> > to your groups.

>

> >

>

> > Start a group

>

> > in 3 easy steps.

>

> > Connect with others.

>

> > .

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

If it's not ideal for you, don't do it. It's not up to you to decide

for anyone else. And low carb doesn't necessarily mean high protein.

On Aug 11, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Holt wrote:

>

>

> It's not ideal to go low carb because you may lose muscle and it

> gets expensive to eat that much protein.

>

>

>

> From: Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3@...>

> Subject: Re: Re: fat percentage of diet

>

> Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 11:24 AM

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know the years and dates.  I've just looked at the recorded research. 

They're somewhere in Africa.

>

> > Upon further reading if you consume a higher fat diet your body will

>

> > just feed off the fat rather than the glycogen. It's still better

>

> > to consume some carbs, atleast 50-100g a day to spare expensive

>

> > protein or muscle from being metabolized. I think only 10% of fat

>

> > can be converted to glucose anyhow. During lower intensities

>

> > activities fat is by far the preffered source of energy. I think if

>

> > you are sedentary and have a high fat diet 75% of the energy you

>

> > expend will be taken from fat.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > RECENT ACTIVITY

>

> > 20

>

> > New Members

>

> > Visit Your Group

>

> > Give Back

>

> > for Good

>

> > Get inspired

>

> > by a good cause.

>

> > Y! Toolbar

>

> > Get it Free!

>

> > easy 1-click access

>

> > to your groups.

>

> >

>

> > Start a group

>

> > in 3 easy steps.

>

> > Connect with others.

>

> > .

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

low carb may likely lead to some muscle loss.  Some people don't care but I'd

rather retain my muscle.

>

> From: Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3mac (DOT) com>

> Subject: Re: Re: fat percentage of diet

>

> Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 11:24 AM

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Are they in the Weston A. Price book? A google search does not seem to be

helpful. I find a Muran language group in Brazil.

Do you mean the Masai?

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/391833/moran

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Holt <danthemanholt@...>wrote:

>

>

> I don't know the years and dates. I've just looked at the recorded

> research. They're somewhere in Africa.

>

>

>

> From: <stacylm@... <stacylm%40gmail.com>>

>

> Subject: Re: Re: fat percentage of diet

> < %40>

> Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 12:03 PM

>

>

>

> Who are the Muran? Where do they live? Do they still live there?

>

>

>

> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Holt <danthemanholt

> >wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > You're right, everyone is different but our bodies all work the same

>

> > basicly. There may be minor differences, allergies, or ailments certain

>

> > individuals carry. Price studied a low carb group, the Inuit. The Inuit

>

> > had some forms of carbs though. They had the glycogen from the meat they

>

> > eat. They had atleast 20g of glycogen from meat a day. They also had a

>

> > higher percentage of fat and protein to convert to glycogen. Most likely

>

> > 15% protein, 5% carbs, and 80% fat. Your body can convert 10% of fat to

>

> > carbs and 60% of protein to carbs. It's more expensive to do that and you

>

> > can more effectively utilize carbs for glycogen burning. It may also be

>

> > more taxing for the organs and use up vitamins and minerals in order to

>

> > metabolize the excess protein. They also had a very low activity

> lifestyle

>

> > so a low carb diet was useful. They had a high number of fat soluble

>

> > vitamins

>

> >

>

> > The Muran were another group Price studied. They would probably be the

>

> > opposite of the Inuit. They had a higher activity lifestyle. They had 7

>

> > quarts of raw milk a day. They had about 375g of carbs a day. They were

> as

>

> > healthy as the Inuit. They had 224g of protein a day but they also had a

>

> > high number of fat soluble vitamins and minerals.

>

> >

>

> > It's not ideal to go low carb because you may lose muscle and it gets

>

> > expensive to eat that much protein.

>

[Guest guest]

Anyone else read the book, " PrimalBody-Primal Mind " by Nora Gedgaudas? I think

it's most excellent! Would love to know what others think of it.

She also does a radio show on Voice American Health and Wellness. You can find

it on her website www.primalbody-primalmind.com

_________________________________________________________________

Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.

http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:0\

82009

[Guest guest]

Yes! I just discovered that recently and am reading it (along with

Good Calories, Bad Calories). I've also listened to her podcasts and

found some good articles and low-carb recipes on her website. I think

she's very sound. She takes a comprehensive look at physical and

mental health, not a narrowly focused approach.

Jeanmarie

On Aug 11, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Laree Kline wrote:

>

> Anyone else read the book, " PrimalBody-Primal Mind " by Nora

> Gedgaudas? I think it's most excellent! Would love to know what

> others think of it.

>

>

>

> She also does a radio show on Voice American Health and Wellness.

> You can find it on her website www.primalbody-primalmind.com

>

> _________________________________________________________________

>