Re: fat percentage of diet

[Guest guest]

Dr. Jan Kwasniewski recommends a high fat diet and it involves a lot of eggs,

10+ a day.  He also recommends broth, but I don't know what he has to say about

shellfish.  He would probably say that it is good because it is easy for the

body to digest.

From: Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...>

Subject: Re: Re: fat percentage of diet

Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 8:19 PM

 

There's a bit of a catch with fats.

It is that in order to fully " digest " (more accurately, absorb), they need

to be emulsified.

Theoretically, your bile will take care of that. However, bile is made of

several components often used up during detox (glycine and taurine included)

and it tends to be ditched by the body (instead of reabsorbed) when it

carries too many toxins. Therefore your ability to assimilate fats is

directly related to your liver health/overall toxicity.

The easiest way around this shortcoming is eating natural, pre-emulsified

fats such as butter and other dairy products - or, consuming your fats with

lecithin (such as egg yolks). So things like homemade mayonnaise, or eating

eggs with your bacon.

The " harder way " (just takes longer) is to boost your bile production by

increasing your glycine (broth) and taurine (heat sensitive: raw shellfish

are a great source, as is heart) intake. Bitters can help encourage your

body to release more bile too.

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Holt <danthemanholt>wrote:

> Is this just me? Whenever I had a lot of fat it wouldn't all digest. If

> you are going low carb and moderate protein will your body metabolize more

> fats?

>

>

[Guest guest]

I take it by the spoonful. No, I'm not avoiding fat, I just prefer the naked

salad. Yes, I know that bile is required to absorb beta carotene. There is

fat in my salads in the form of eggs, cheese, or avocado.

I use coconut oil for most cooking. I also cook with rendered animal fat. I

try my best to avoid the fats you list as much as possible.

Kathy

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Jeanmarie Todd

Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: fat percentage of diet

Hi Kathy, So do you take coconut oil by the spoonful or in tea? I find

that when I do that I end up only having it occasionally, I just can't

make it a habit. So instead I cook with a blend of ghee and coconut

oil and I find it's lovely for everything.

Are you avoiding oil or do you just dislike salad dressing? Did you

realize the beta-carotene in veggies aren't absorbable without fat? I

love a variety of greens but wouldn't eat much at all without

dressing, personally. Homemade, to avoid canola oil, soy oil, etc.

How do you like to take your coconut oil?

Jeanmarie

On Aug 11, 2009, at 7:02 PM, Kathy Dickson wrote:

> Jeanmarie,

>

> Yes, fats are more satiating. That's why in EFLF Sally says to have

> bacon,

> eggs, and cheese for breakfast and leave the toast alone! I agree,

> and I

> agree with the previous conversation about how much longer you can

> before

> you eat lunch if you eat like that.

>

> I like veggies, too, and live on salads in the summer, without

> dressing.

> Gimme a good, ripe tomato on my salad any day instead of dressing.

> In the

> winter, I like avocados on my salad and don't need/want dressing,

> another

> high fat food. I also like fruit, and it satisfies the sweet tooth.

>

> I don't think the coconut oil alone reduces my appetite. I do use it

> to

> camouflage the taste of my kelp and maca powder in the morning,

> though J

>

> In EFLF, Sally says to have coconut oil before each meal, to kick up

> the

> metabolism, and to have milk or cheese at every meal. That's a

> pretty high

> percentage of my calories. Not many left to chew on J

>

> Kathy

>

>

[Guest guest]

That could just mean that you're intolerant to dairy. If you were

having fat digestibility problems, it would be consistent regardless

of the type of fat.

-jennifer

On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:00 AM, Holt wrote:

> I know my fat isn't digesting because on the days I have a lot of

> dairy fat my stool would turn green.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I eat a high-fat, low-carb, moderate-protein diet and have no problems absorbing

the fat. try low carb when you go high fat.

>

> I didn't see it get posted so I will  say it again.  I found that when I had a

lot of fat my body would just poop most of it out.  Will the fat in a high fat

diet absorb?  Will more absorb if I go low carb?

[Guest guest]

I'm aiming for the same, but until I start recording my diet and

analyzing it for a few days I'm not absolutely sure.

Jeanmarie

On Aug 12, 2009, at 7:59 AM, carolyn_graff wrote:

> I eat a high-fat, low-carb, moderate-protein diet and have no

> problems absorbing the fat. try low carb when you go high fat.

>

>

> >

> > I didn't see it get posted so I will say it again. I found that

> when I had a lot of fat my body would just poop most of it out.

> Will the fat in a high fat diet absorb? Will more absorb if I go

> low carb?

>

>

>

> _._,___

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,

Do you mean below 20 grams for low carb?

Kathy

---- Jeanmarie Todd <jaytee3@...> wrote:

=============

I'm aiming for the same, but until I start recording my diet and

analyzing it for a few days I'm not absolutely sure.

Jeanmarie

On Aug 12, 2009, at 7:59 AM, carolyn_graff wrote:

> I eat a high-fat, low-carb, moderate-protein diet and have no

> problems absorbing the fat. try low carb when you go high fat.

>

>

> >

> > I didn't see it get posted so I will say it again. I found that

> when I had a lot of fat my body would just poop most of it out.

> Will the fat in a high fat diet absorb? Will more absorb if I go

> low carb?

[Guest guest]

One of the ladies said cow's milk made her tired when she drank it before a

game.  I have a couple more ideas...

It's better to drink during a game instead of before it as your body's

metabolism starts speeding up and can take in the carbs.  Even Jersey cow's milk

may be more work to digest.  Fermented milk or goats milk would be the best

choices.  Mix in some unheated honey too when you let it ferment.  What's good

about goat's milk is that it is naturally homogenized making the proteins far

easier to digest.  It only takes the body 20 minutes to fully metabolize the

goats milk.  I would think cows milk would be much higher in immunoglobins so It

may be more desirable to use fermented or kefired cows milk.  I came up with a

few ideas to mask the soured fermented smell too.  Mix in some unheated honey.

rapadura, cacao syrup, and vanilla extract into it.  Would that work?

From: carolyn_graff <zgraff@...>

Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 7:59 AM

 

I eat a high-fat, low-carb, moderate-protein diet and have no

problems absorbing the fat. try low carb when you go high fat.

--- In , Holt <danthemanholt@ ...>

wrote:

>

> I didn't see it get posted so I will  say it again.  I found that when I had a

lot of fat my body would just poop most of it out.  Will the fat in a high fat

diet absorb?  Will more absorb if I go low carb?

[Guest guest]

It is pasteurized homogenized dairy too.

> I know my fat isn't digesting because on the days I have a lot of

> dairy fat my stool would turn green.

>

>

[Guest guest]

For some, dairy is dairy and it doesn't matter if it is raw or

otherwise.

Steinbachs

Away from my desk

On Aug 12, 2009, at 6:12 PM, Holt <danthemanholt@...>

wrote:

> It is pasteurized homogenized dairy too.

>

>

>

> > I know my fat isn't digesting because on the days I have a lot of

>

> > dairy fat my stool would turn green.

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> What's good about goat's milk is that it is naturally homogenized making the

> proteins far easier to digest.  It only takes the body 20 minutes to fully

> metabolize the goats milk.

I remember we had a discussion about the terminology " homogenized " for

goat milk a few years ago. It's more accurate to say " homogenous "

because " homogenized " refers to a form of human processing to make

something homogenous. The process of homogenization involves

splitting up large fat molecules into smaller parts. Goat milk isn't

homogenous because large fats have been split up; it's homogenous

because the fats are generally small in the first place.

The fact that goat milk is naturally homogenous has nothing at all to

do with the digestibility of protein. The homogeneity is due to fat

molecules being small enough to stay in the liquid instead of

separating. Goat milk is not totally homogenous either, because there

is a range of sizes of fat molecules in all milks. Goat milk has some

larger fat molecules that will settle into a cream layer on top just

like cow milk, but it's a much smaller percentage of the fat

molecules. Likewise, cow milk has some small fat molecules that don't

settle into the cream layer on top. All of this is about the fat

component of the milk, not protein. If goat milk proteins are easier

to digest (and I assume the common belief is true), then it's for some

other reason that has nothing to do with fat. As I understand it

(without any real evidence, just plausible hearsay), the protein

molecules are smaller, which makes them easier to digest.

I know raw milk, eggs, and meat digest very quickly, but do you have

any source of evidence for the claim about 20 minutes? I can believe

it, but I'd like to know for sure.

Thanks!

-Mike

[Guest guest]

Here's a good article that gives an overview of the benefits of goats milk.

http://www.roseofsharonacres.com/raw_goat_milk_benefits

> What's good about goat's milk is that it is naturally homogenized making the

> proteins far easier to digest.  It only takes the body 20 minutes to fully

> metabolize the goats milk.

I remember we had a discussion about the terminology " homogenized " for

goat milk a few years ago. It's more accurate to say " homogenous "

because " homogenized " refers to a form of human processing to make

something homogenous. The process of homogenization involves

splitting up large fat molecules into smaller parts. Goat milk isn't

homogenous because large fats have been split up; it's homogenous

because the fats are generally small in the first place.

The fact that goat milk is naturally homogenous has nothing at all to

do with the digestibility of protein. The homogeneity is due to fat

molecules being small enough to stay in the liquid instead of

separating. Goat milk is not totally homogenous either, because there

is a range of sizes of fat molecules in all milks. Goat milk has some

larger fat molecules that will settle into a cream layer on top just

like cow milk, but it's a much smaller percentage of the fat

molecules. Likewise, cow milk has some small fat molecules that don't

settle into the cream layer on top. All of this is about the fat

component of the milk, not protein. If goat milk proteins are easier

to digest (and I assume the common belief is true), then it's for some

other reason that has nothing to do with fat. As I understand it

(without any real evidence, just plausible hearsay), the protein

molecules are smaller, which makes them easier to digest.

I know raw milk, eggs, and meat digest very quickly, but do you have

any source of evidence for the claim about 20 minutes? I can believe

it, but I'd like to know for sure.

Thanks!

-Mike

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Here's a good article that gives an overview of the benefits of goats milk.

>

> http://www.roseofsharonacres.com/raw_goat_milk_benefits

Unfortunately that article doesn't give any sources for their claim

about the duration of digestion, and I'm extremely skeptical that the

following claim they make is actually true:

" In fact, your body can digest goat's milk in just 20 minutes. It

takes 2-3 hours to digest cow's milk. "

Sounds like someone making up their own " facts " . The difference

between various milks is not that dramatic.

-Mike

[Guest guest]

I tend to agree with you on this, Mike. Straight sugar can hit the

bloodstream in less than 20 minutes I think (through the amylase in

saliva?) but digesting protein and fat that quickly? Nothing I've read

about digestion would support that claim. Any physiologists out there?

Jeanmarie

On Aug 12, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Mike wrote:

> wrote:

> > Here's a good article that gives an overview of the benefits of

> goats milk.

> >

> > http://www.roseofsharonacres.com/raw_goat_milk_benefits

>

> Unfortunately that article doesn't give any sources for their claim

> about the duration of digestion, and I'm extremely skeptical that the

> following claim they make is actually true:

>

> " In fact, your body can digest goat's milk in just 20 minutes. It

> takes 2-3 hours to digest cow's milk. "

>

> Sounds like someone making up their own " facts " . The difference

> between various milks is not that dramatic.

>

> -Mike

>

> _._,___

[Guest guest]

> So if you do not have enough sufficient protein

> or fat to convert to glycogen in the absense of

> a carbohydrate source your body will pull from your muscle stores. 

Ah, you are talking low carb and low protein both.

When you said " low carb leads to muscle loss " that is only true if protein and

fat are insufficient too.

[Guest guest]

yes

> > >

> > > I didn't see it get posted so I will say it again. I found that

> > when I had a lot of fat my body would just poop most of it out.

> > Will the fat in a high fat diet absorb? Will more absorb if I go

> > low carb?

>

[Guest guest]

It's comparing a study of the digestion time from babies with cows milk vs.

goats milk.  There were dozens of web-sites stating the same thing.  Otherwise

I'd have to look up the individual studies.

> Here's a good article that gives an overview of the benefits of goats milk.

>

> http://www.roseofsh aronacres. com/raw_goat_ milk_benefits

Unfortunately that article doesn't give any sources for their claim

about the duration of digestion, and I'm extremely skeptical that the

following claim they make is actually true:

" In fact, your body can digest goat's milk in just 20 minutes. It

takes 2-3 hours to digest cow's milk. "

Sounds like someone making up their own " facts " . The difference

between various milks is not that dramatic.

-Mike

[Guest guest]

Yeah, and if you read my other posts I was also talking about how it's difficult

to use protein as a source of fuel other than muscular repair.  It may also do

some damage.  Only 10% of fat you consume can convert to carbohydrate.  You

would need to consume enough fat to where 10% of it will convert to carbs, or

the body will eat from your muscle stores.

I never see dieters with a quality tone or muscle.  I'm not talking about Arnold

Schwarzennegar, I'm talking about basic muscle tone.

From: cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...>

Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 7:37 PM

 

> So if you do not have enough sufficient protein

> or fat to convert to glycogen in the absense of

> a carbohydrate source your body will pull from your muscle stores. 

Ah, you are talking low carb and low protein both.

When you said " low carb leads to muscle loss " that is only true if protein and

fat are insufficient too.

[Guest guest]

Types of proteins, carbs, and fats can digest pretty quickly.  Goat milk is

higher in short chain fatty acids than cows milk, the proteins are far easier to

digest and protein can digest quickly, and the lactose is a simple carb so it

can break down quickly too.  I believe the body breaks down short chain fatty

acids faster than any other fat source.

Anyone that is dairy intolerant may want to experiment with goats milk or

kefired/fermented goats milk.

> > Here's a good article that gives an overview of the benefits of

> goats milk.

> >

> > http://www.roseofsh aronacres. com/raw_goat_ milk_benefits

>

> Unfortunately that article doesn't give any sources for their claim

> about the duration of digestion, and I'm extremely skeptical that the

> following claim they make is actually true:

>

> " In fact, your body can digest goat's milk in just 20 minutes. It

> takes 2-3 hours to digest cow's milk. "

>

> Sounds like someone making up their own " facts " . The difference

> between various milks is not that dramatic.

>

> -Mike

>

> _._,___

[Guest guest]

Google WHFoods information on goats milk.  That have an interesting take on why

it's more easily absorbable than cows milk.  Scientists are just scratching

their heads.

1 cup of goat's milk has 500mg of potassium!  Now if I can just find a good

source of goats milk...

> Here's a good article that gives an overview of the benefits of goats milk.

>

> http://www.roseofsh aronacres. com/raw_goat_ milk_benefits

Unfortunately that article doesn't give any sources for their claim

about the duration of digestion, and I'm extremely skeptical that the

following claim they make is actually true:

" In fact, your body can digest goat's milk in just 20 minutes. It

takes 2-3 hours to digest cow's milk. "

Sounds like someone making up their own " facts " . The difference

between various milks is not that dramatic.

-Mike

[Guest guest]

Some with dairy intolerance are actually intolerant to casein - a

protein that is present also in goat's milk and still has the same

effect on the very sensitive individuals.

-jennifer

On Aug 13, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Holt wrote:

> Types of proteins, carbs, and fats can digest pretty quickly. Goat

> milk is higher in short chain fatty acids than cows milk, the

> proteins are far easier to digest and protein can digest quickly,

> and the lactose is a simple carb so it can break down quickly too.

> I believe the body breaks down short chain fatty acids faster than

> any other fat source.

>

> Anyone that is dairy intolerant may want to experiment with goats

> milk or kefired/fermented goats milk.

>

> .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm curious as to where you get the figure that only 10% of fat you

consume can convert to carbohydrate. I don't think you need to convert

fat to carbs to use it as fuel anyway.

" Dieters " is a pretty broad category and hence meaningless.

I've read claims back and forth about how the body needs more protein

than most people get, or no, we get too much protein and it's

wasteful. Until I see some definitive proof that getting this

precisely right really matters, I'm content to follow a moderate

course for myself.

Jeanmarie

On Aug 12, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Holt wrote:

> Yeah, and if you read my other posts I was also talking about how

> it's difficult to use protein as a source of fuel other than

> muscular repair. It may also do some damage. Only 10% of fat you

> consume can convert to carbohydrate. You would need to consume

> enough fat to where 10% of it will convert to carbs, or the body

> will eat from your muscle stores.

>

> I never see dieters with a quality tone or muscle. I'm not talking

> about Arnold Schwarzennegar, I'm talking about basic muscle tone.

>

>

>

> From: cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...>

> Subject: Re: fat percentage of diet

>

> Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 7:37 PM

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

It wasn't clear before that you were talking about *babies,* which is

quite different from adults. Maybe it's just because their bodies are

new and don't have anything clogging their intestines, but babies do

digest food significantly faster than adults.

I like the idea of goat's milk but haven't liked it so far, which has

only been Meyenberg. I'd love to try fresh, raw goat's milk.

Jeanmarie

On Aug 12, 2009, at 11:06 PM, Holt wrote:

> Types of proteins, carbs, and fats can digest pretty quickly. Goat

> milk is higher in short chain fatty acids than cows milk, the

> proteins are far easier to digest and protein can digest quickly,

> and the lactose is a simple carb so it can break down quickly too.

> I believe the body breaks down short chain fatty acids faster than

> any other fat source.

>

> Anyone that is dairy intolerant may want to experiment with goats

> milk or kefired/fermented goats milk.

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Intolerance " usually refers to lactose intolerance, while

" intolerance " to casein, etc., is usually referred to as an allergy.

On Aug 13, 2009, at 5:34 AM, Steinbachs wrote:

> Some with dairy intolerance are actually intolerant to casein - a

> protein that is present also in goat's milk and still has the same

> effect on the very sensitive individuals.

> -jennifer

>

> On Aug 13, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Holt wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

Where does this 10% figure (of glucose from fats) come from? Everything that we

always hear about the need for glucose from carbs is challenged by the evidence

Taubes discusses in ch. 22 of _Good Calories, Bad Calories_. He speaks of

research that " finally established the dominant role of fatty acids in supplying

energy for the body, " and demonstrated that when carbs are absent, fats supply

85% of our energy needs (p. 385). The chapter, if not the whole book, really

merits reading closely, if only to stop repeating the same old circulating rules

of thumb about minimum levels of carbs, muscle wasting, and so forth.

I'm not sure there is an ideal limit on carbs or that I would advocate the super

low-carb diets for most people. But I also don't think athletes need to be

constantly dosing themselves with carbs to make it through a workout. My point

about the milk before a workout was not that I was looking for a pick-me-ip and

milk failed, but that I didn't need one even through four hours of basketball.

Different people in different sports may vary--bodybuilding is an extreme

activity in some ways, so it may have its own needs, but I would still ask for

some evidence even here.

I remain suspicious of the need to constantly tweak our insulin. I believe

traditionally people worked long hours without food and feasted robustly. I

would think avoiding all carbs is less the norm than not eating them throughout

the day, thereby locking up the ready availability of energy in adipose tissue

by constantly elevating insulin. Even pre-agricultural peoples collected wild

cereals which may have been one factor eventually leading to domestication (see

Mithen, _Before the Ice_). I'm just really suspicious of the whole common

knowledge about workout snacks and the like, most of which--if based on evidence

at all--probably presumes a background of carb snacking as the norm.

Bill

>

> Yeah, and if you read my other posts I was also talking about how it's

difficult to use protein as a source of fuel other than muscular repair.  It may

also do some damage.  Only 10% of fat you consume can convert to carbohydrate. 

You would need to consume enough fat to where 10% of it will convert to carbs,

or the body will eat from your muscle stores.

>

> I never see dieters with a quality tone or muscle.  I'm not talking about

Arnold Schwarzennegar, I'm talking about basic muscle tone.

>

[Guest guest]

> I'm just really suspicious of the whole common knowledge about

> workout snacks and the like, most of which--if based on

> evidence at all--probably presumes a background of carb

> snacking as the norm.

> Bill

It does, and even more, assumes " carb is the preferred fuel for exercise " . That

belief is endemic in exercise science and public health, even though our bodies

burn fat all the time except for brief periods of what is basically acceleration

(anaerobic, or sugar-burning pathways). Brief weight lifting; explosive sports;

continuing to run at speed; all involve ramping up effort so the body does not

rest. I am in school for a " Fitness Technology " AA degree and I was seriously

still taught that glucose is the preferred fuel for exercise.

There is a neat comment in the audio interview with Finney " Low Carb

Exercise with Finney

http://hoe.kgnu.net/hoeradioshow.php?show_id=184

where he talks about how the excitement of studying glucose utilization in

runners, 40 years ago now, led to 40 years of further research focusing on the

glucose side of things. And then everyone kind of morphed into thinking glucose

was the most important. And all this tweaking about where when why and how much

to ingest glucose.

Meanwhile, studying the fat-burning side of things is not only way behind, but

harder to get funding, because now everyone believes " carb is the preferred fuel

for the body. " !!!!

Connie