Re: Sue slip signing/SMART meeting

March 29, 2000

Hi Sue

Committing a crime shouldnt be a reason to take away ALL your rights.

only those that are approproate tp be removed. It may be appropriate to

take away your roght to liberty, but not your right to religious

freedom, which is what AA coercion does.

There are many other serious objections to AA coercion other than

religious freedom. A biggie is it makes AA part of the juducual

system. Should justice, and public safety, be dependent on a completely

unvetted individual selected at random and completely unknown to the

authorities? what kind of responsible administration of law and order

is that? The signer could be a drunk who is committing crimes all over

the place and DUI'ing all the time THEMSELF! We have also seen here how

easy it is for ppl to sign there own slips or do other dodges. If group

attendance is coerced, then the court should have a State official such

as a parole officer see that someone actually goes. It also makes Aa an

organ of the State, which AA ought to object to from its own Traditions

but doesnt.

P.

" sue styd " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14283

>

> Indeed, I would very upset if I had been " sentenced " to

> attend recovery groups when they were not needed as in your

> case Rita.

>

> In my case, I opted to attend court ordered AA instead of

> going to jail. I have never regretted that decision.

> What I do regret is that I did not have a choice in my

> recovery program. It was AA or jail. No choice.

>

> I speak for myself only when I say that having to get that

> slip signed was helpful to me. It forced me to stay

> abstinent long enough for me to decide that it was a pretty

> good idea. Out of curiousity, I would wonder how many

> here " sobered up " on their own accord. Very few, I would

> expect. It seems to usually be someone else's idea, not

> our own.

>

> And so, for me, the court system made that decision. Did

> they take away my rights? Sure. People who drive as drunk

> as I did shouldn't have any anyway. I was a danger and I'm

> real darn lucky I didn't kill anyone.

>

> What is the solution when it comes to alcohol dependent drunk

> drivers? Jail? Court ordered AA?

>

> Or perhaps an alternative, which I wish I would have had.

>

> Sue

>

> >Subject: Re: SMART meeting

> >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:08:04 -0800

> >

> >miken-@... wrote:

> >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14

250

> > > In a message dated 3/29/00 5:55:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > > railroadrita@... writes:

> > >

> > > > Any SMART group which continues to sign court/employer

mandatory

> > > > attendance slips is, like AA, indirectly supporting coercion

and

> > > > control-freakism.

> > > >

> > > But also keeping some poor soul out of jail.

> > >

> >----------------------------

> >

> > And why would you think that following my suggestion, i.e. of

> >signing the first slip and adding " Mr. Herb Levy attended tonight's

> >meeting of SMART Recovery. However, as SMART is a voluntary support

> >group, and we feel recovery group participation is not necessary for

> >all people to stay sober, we will not condone or participate in

coerced

> >attendance, and will not sign any further attendance verification for

> >Mr. Levy " , would put Herb Levy in jail?

> >

> > And if you do believe that the conscientious objection of a

SMART

> >or other meeting coordinator will put someone in jail (or get them

> >fired), then are you saying that SMART is part of the criminal

justice

> >system (or of company managements)?

> >

> > This issue is very important and emotional to me; my company's

EAP

> >required me to attend, IN ADDITION TO paid " treatment " , 9 months of

> >recovery group attendance in order to keep my job. If the

coordinators

> >had written a note such as the above, the EAP could not have required

> >this; after all, they are not the boss of, and have no power over,

the

> >meeting coordinators. Do you disagree with this?

> >

> >~Rita

> >

March 30, 2000

Hi Pete & Rita too,

You are correct that my religious freedom was violated.

At the time, and looking out from the inside of that jail

cell, I really didn't give a shit 'bout that. I just wanted

to get outta that hell hole.

I definitly see all the points here about how absurd this

slip signing is. Of course it is. And there were plenty

of complete nutcases doing the signing. AA is not supposed

to be attached to outside issues. And the court system

is whacked out, too.

I was very glad that I did not have that device on my car.

That may have stopped me from driving while drinking, but

it would not have stopped me from drinking myself to death

otherwise.

So, did those forced AA meetings help me to get " sober? "

Yes, but not because of their content. Because I was forced

to do something other than drink.

The courts did not force me to believe what I heard in those

meetings. That was my own idiocy.

I can see why you do not feel that SMART should sign. But

I don't have the answers here. And looking back, if

SMART would have been offered as an option for signatures to

me, it certainly would have been a better choice. The

year of toting around that paper, could have been spent in

a more positive learning manner.

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: Sue slip signing/SMART meeting

>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:13:58 -0800

>

>Hi Sue

>

>Committing a crime shouldnt be a reason to take away ALL your rights.

>only those that are approproate tp be removed. It may be appropriate to

>take away your roght to liberty, but not your right to religious

>freedom, which is what AA coercion does.

>

>There are many other serious objections to AA coercion other than

>religious freedom. A biggie is it makes AA part of the juducual

>system. Should justice, and public safety, be dependent on a completely

>unvetted individual selected at random and completely unknown to the

>authorities? what kind of responsible administration of law and order

>is that? The signer could be a drunk who is committing crimes all over

>the place and DUI'ing all the time THEMSELF! We have also seen here how

>easy it is for ppl to sign there own slips or do other dodges. If group

>attendance is coerced, then the court should have a State official such

>as a parole officer see that someone actually goes. It also makes Aa an

>organ of the State, which AA ought to object to from its own Traditions

>but doesnt.

>

>P.

> " sue styd " wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14283

> >

> > Indeed, I would very upset if I had been " sentenced " to

> > attend recovery groups when they were not needed as in your

> > case Rita.

> >

> > In my case, I opted to attend court ordered AA instead of

> > going to jail. I have never regretted that decision.

> > What I do regret is that I did not have a choice in my

> > recovery program. It was AA or jail. No choice.

> >

> > I speak for myself only when I say that having to get that

> > slip signed was helpful to me. It forced me to stay

> > abstinent long enough for me to decide that it was a pretty

> > good idea. Out of curiousity, I would wonder how many

> > here " sobered up " on their own accord. Very few, I would

> > expect. It seems to usually be someone else's idea, not

> > our own.

> >

> > And so, for me, the court system made that decision. Did

> > they take away my rights? Sure. People who drive as drunk

> > as I did shouldn't have any anyway. I was a danger and I'm

> > real darn lucky I didn't kill anyone.

> >

> > What is the solution when it comes to alcohol dependent drunk

> > drivers? Jail? Court ordered AA?

> >

> > Or perhaps an alternative, which I wish I would have had.

> >

> > Sue

> >

> > >Subject: Re: SMART meeting

> > >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:08:04 -0800

> > >

> > >miken-@... wrote:

> > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=14

>250

> > > > In a message dated 3/29/00 5:55:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > > > railroadrita@... writes:

> > > >

> > > > > Any SMART group which continues to sign court/employer

>mandatory

> > > > > attendance slips is, like AA, indirectly supporting coercion

>and

> > > > > control-freakism.

> > > > >

> > > > But also keeping some poor soul out of jail.

> > > >

> > >----------------------------

> > >

> > > And why would you think that following my suggestion, i.e. of

> > >signing the first slip and adding " Mr. Herb Levy attended tonight's

> > >meeting of SMART Recovery. However, as SMART is a voluntary support

> > >group, and we feel recovery group participation is not necessary for

> > >all people to stay sober, we will not condone or participate in

>coerced

> > >attendance, and will not sign any further attendance verification for

> > >Mr. Levy " , would put Herb Levy in jail?

> > >

> > > And if you do believe that the conscientious objection of a

>SMART

> > >or other meeting coordinator will put someone in jail (or get them

> > >fired), then are you saying that SMART is part of the criminal

>justice

> > >system (or of company managements)?

> > >

> > > This issue is very important and emotional to me; my company's

>EAP

> > >required me to attend, IN ADDITION TO paid " treatment " , 9 months of

> > >recovery group attendance in order to keep my job. If the

>coordinators

> > >had written a note such as the above, the EAP could not have required

> > >this; after all, they are not the boss of, and have no power over,

>the

> > >meeting coordinators. Do you disagree with this?

> > >

> > >~Rita

> > >

>

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______________________________________________________

March 30, 2000