Re: Psychiatric diagnosis vs. life

December 15, 2009

I read a study a while back that said the more sleep you get the better

life expectancy, until above about 8 hours or so, then life expectancy

went down. But thats just off the top of my head.

I'd love to hear some information on the normative human sleep patterns

before industrialization, clocks, jobs, etc.

Pete

haecklers wrote:

>

> I find it interesting that in order to qualify for a psychiatric

> diagnosis, it has to interfere with daily life; so if you have the

> same symptoms but get along quite well you should not be diagnosed.

> Wouldn't that interfere with studies to find solutions to psychiatric

> problems?

>

> I was reading up on bi-polar disorder out of curiosity and because I

> have peroids where I function much better on low sleep (like 5 hours a

> night) - feel brimming with creativity and energy and am very

> productive in terms of finishing projects, getting new ideas (that are

> fruitful), and such. And I have a monthly cycle that gives me about a

> week where I want to withdraw and not do much and sleep closer to 8

> hours a night.

>

> For one thing, it's got me curious on how much sleep a person *really*

> needs. I've read 8-9 hours a night for optimal health. Is that just

> because of our unhealthy lifestyles? Is there a bi-polar rhythm that

> is normal in people (women, especially I think because of the monthly

> cycle of hormones that affect mood and behavior)? Why is it that many

> of the great thinkers slept very little? Were they healthy or abnormal??

>

> I saw a DVD in the library about an artist who was studying (on

> himself) the effects of sleep deprivation on creativity - he seems to

> think (based on the back of the cover) that less sleep creates better

> creativity.

>

> Why is it that yesterday, when I had only slept 3 hours due to a mild

> but annoying cough, I was more energetic all day, in a better mood

> than days earlier, got more done, and didn't feel tired?

>

> Has anybody documented how much the natural people (i.e. " natives " ) slept?

>

December 15, 2009

I've been reading up on this. There's a syndrome(?) called " creative insomnia "

where people believe they do better creative work and problem solving in the

middle of the night and view insomnia episodes as a gift rather than a curse.

There's also a genetic mutation some folks have called FASPS where their

circadian rhythm is several hours off compared to most people's so they get

tired at 7:30 and wake up at 4:30, and their hunger, body chemistry and so forth

is offset by about the same amount of time.

I've been reading other accounts of artists and such who say they rarely sleep

more than 4 hours a day and feel like the night hours are the times they do

their best work - poetry, painting, etc. I do wonder how long they live tho

(based on your longevity thing - but then again could some sleep problems be due

to health problems while others aren't so the group of people who get less sleep

is a mix of the good and the bad?

Einstein and Edison both fell into this category, I believe (sleeping 4 hours a

night or less).

> >

> > I find it interesting that in order to qualify for a psychiatric

> > diagnosis, it has to interfere with daily life; so if you have the

> > same symptoms but get along quite well you should not be diagnosed.

> > Wouldn't that interfere with studies to find solutions to psychiatric

> > problems?

> >

> > I was reading up on bi-polar disorder out of curiosity and because I

> > have peroids where I function much better on low sleep (like 5 hours a

> > night) - feel brimming with creativity and energy and am very

> > productive in terms of finishing projects, getting new ideas (that are

> > fruitful), and such. And I have a monthly cycle that gives me about a

> > week where I want to withdraw and not do much and sleep closer to 8

> > hours a night.

> >

> > For one thing, it's got me curious on how much sleep a person *really*

> > needs. I've read 8-9 hours a night for optimal health. Is that just

> > because of our unhealthy lifestyles? Is there a bi-polar rhythm that

> > is normal in people (women, especially I think because of the monthly

> > cycle of hormones that affect mood and behavior)? Why is it that many

> > of the great thinkers slept very little? Were they healthy or abnormal??

> >

> > I saw a DVD in the library about an artist who was studying (on

> > himself) the effects of sleep deprivation on creativity - he seems to

> > think (based on the back of the cover) that less sleep creates better

> > creativity.

> >

> > Why is it that yesterday, when I had only slept 3 hours due to a mild

> > but annoying cough, I was more energetic all day, in a better mood

> > than days earlier, got more done, and didn't feel tired?

> >

> > Has anybody documented how much the natural people (i.e. " natives " ) slept?

> >

>

December 15, 2009

Maybe great thinkers are more balanced. They do what they want to do and have

escaped any negative distractions in their life. They also may be in a more

meditative state because of the way they think. When people meditate they need

less sleep. The longer you are able to keep your mind clear, maintain

creativity and intuition, the greater quality of meditation you have. Many

discoveries that came to these inventors happened in an " aha " moment and came to

them from out of nowhere. This may involve something like meditation. They

were more grounded and resolved than most people in the realm of dysfunctional

thinking. They had their challenges but it was a different type of challenge

that didn't eat away at your mind and your personal energy.

Dan Holt

________________________________

From: haecklers <haecklers@...>

Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 6:11:32 AM

Subject: Psychiatric diagnosis vs. life

I find it interesting that in order to qualify for a psychiatric diagnosis, it

has to interfere with daily life; so if you have the same symptoms but get along

quite well you should not be diagnosed. Wouldn't that interfere with studies to

find solutions to psychiatric problems?

I was reading up on bi-polar disorder out of curiosity and because I have

peroids where I function much better on low sleep (like 5 hours a night) - feel

brimming with creativity and energy and am very productive in terms of finishing

projects, getting new ideas (that are fruitful), and such. And I have a monthly

cycle that gives me about a week where I want to withdraw and not do much and

sleep closer to 8 hours a night.

For one thing, it's got me curious on how much sleep a person *really* needs.

I've read 8-9 hours a night for optimal health. Is that just because of our

unhealthy lifestyles? Is there a bi-polar rhythm that is normal in people

(women, especially I think because of the monthly cycle of hormones that affect

mood and behavior)? Why is it that many of the great thinkers slept very

little? Were they healthy or abnormal??

I saw a DVD in the library about an artist who was studying (on himself) the

effects of sleep deprivation on creativity - he seems to think (based on the

back of the cover) that less sleep creates better creativity.

Why is it that yesterday, when I had only slept 3 hours due to a mild but

annoying cough, I was more energetic all day, in a better mood than days

earlier, got more done, and didn't feel tired?

Has anybody documented how much the natural people (i.e. " natives " ) slept?

December 16, 2009

An interesting thing is that sometimes how you feel does not necessary dictate a

healthy response by your body. I've talked to many people who felt great and

full of energy on a raw vegan diet, and exercised very much because they felt

soo good then finally learned much later the damage they were doing to there

body...despite feeling very energetic and even euphoric.

I wonder that even if getting less sleep might make you feel more energetic, it

could have long lasting consequences that may not be anticipated.

I also think many of the great thinkers were very passionate and even obsessive

about whatever they were doing, and that factor is probably much more important

than how much sleep they got.

-

>

> I find it interesting that in order to qualify for a psychiatric diagnosis, it

has to interfere with daily life; so if you have the same symptoms but get along

quite well you should not be diagnosed. Wouldn't that interfere with studies to

find solutions to psychiatric problems?

>

> I was reading up on bi-polar disorder out of curiosity and because I have

peroids where I function much better on low sleep (like 5 hours a night) - feel

brimming with creativity and energy and am very productive in terms of finishing

projects, getting new ideas (that are fruitful), and such. And I have a monthly

cycle that gives me about a week where I want to withdraw and not do much and

sleep closer to 8 hours a night.

>

> For one thing, it's got me curious on how much sleep a person *really* needs.

I've read 8-9 hours a night for optimal health. Is that just because of our

unhealthy lifestyles? Is there a bi-polar rhythm that is normal in people

(women, especially I think because of the monthly cycle of hormones that affect

mood and behavior)? Why is it that many of the great thinkers slept very

little? Were they healthy or abnormal??

>

> I saw a DVD in the library about an artist who was studying (on himself) the

effects of sleep deprivation on creativity - he seems to think (based on the

back of the cover) that less sleep creates better creativity.

>

> Why is it that yesterday, when I had only slept 3 hours due to a mild but

annoying cough, I was more energetic all day, in a better mood than days

earlier, got more done, and didn't feel tired?

>

> Has anybody documented how much the natural people (i.e. " natives " ) slept?

>

December 16, 2009

I read that Edison never got over the damage done to his body while he worked

without sleep on the light bulb. he was a morphine addict ever after.

I think there is a high that some bodies are better at, that kicks in with

starvation or crisis. it's a flood of your bodies' natural endorphins (because

the body knows that the activity is so destructive it's time to let loose with

the painkillers.)

>

> I've been reading up on this. There's a syndrome(?) called " creative

insomnia " where people believe they do better creative work and problem solving

in the middle of the night and view insomnia episodes as a gift rather than a

curse.

December 16, 2009

Then again Edison also took other individuals inventions but he had the money to

actually market them. He probably just looked into cheaper materials to make

them more marketable. He also looked into the cheapest method to mass produce

them. He also took the opportunity to patent them so he gets all the money

rights. He was more of an entrepreneur than an inventor. He's not in the same

class as Einstein.

Dan Holt

________________________________

From: cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...>

Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 5:05:35 PM

Subject: Re: Psychiatric diagnosis vs. life

I read that Edison never got over the damage done to his body while he worked

without sleep on the light bulb. he was a morphine addict ever after.

I think there is a high that some bodies are better at, that kicks in with

starvation or crisis. it's a flood of your bodies' natural endorphins (because

the body knows that the activity is so destructive it's time to let loose with

the painkillers. )

>

> I've been reading up on this. There's a syndrome(?) called " creative

insomnia " where people believe they do better creative work and problem solving

in the middle of the night and view insomnia episodes as a gift rather than a

curse.

December 16, 2009

Not all great thinkers are obsessive, but I definitely can't say that all great

thinkers were very grounded and at peace with themselves.

A genius that comes to mind first is Nikola Tesla. He was a very strange person

and definitely was obsessive compulsive.

Isaac Newton had nervous breakdowns and great fits of rage against anyone who

disagreed with him.

Beethoven had bipolar disorder, and wrote his most famous works while suffering

psychotic delusions.

-

>

> Passionate and obsessive. Perhaps, but not at the dysfunctional level many

obsessed people are at that generates negative energy. Many people are obsessed

because that is all they are good at and avoid other aspects of their life that

they are not good at.

>

> Great thinkers came up with their ideas and inventions because they were very

grounded and at peace with themselves. You have to be a resolved individual to

tap into such potential.

>

> Dan Holt

>

December 16, 2009

Here's what I don't get about that - if it's a disorder, how does it cause the

highs they get, the reason many people with bipolar disorder don't want to take

their medicine - the euphoria, creativity, boundless energy, etc.? How can

deficiency cause that? Granted, in some it goes too far and they get themselves

into trouble but how many artists and inventors have a functional version of

that?

BTW, it's not just lithium deficiency that causes that, some people have " high

histamine " and also function in a very high state of energy. It's called

histadelia and here's an article on it that says the Kennedy family are a good

example:

http://www.healthrecovery.com/HRC_2006/Depression_06/D_roller_coaster.htm

>

> Tesla was not a genius. Isaac Newton was a genius and I hardly call that much

of a dysfunction. I don't think bipolar disorder is a dysfunction. It's an

imbalance due to trace mineral deficiency from depleted soil and depleted food.

>

> Dan Holt

>

> ________________________________

> From: <gdawson6@...>

>

> Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 9:24:53 PM

> Subject: Re: Psychiatric diagnosis vs. life

>

> Not all great thinkers are obsessive, but I definitely can't say that all

great thinkers were very grounded and at peace with themselves.

>

> A genius that comes to mind first is Nikola Tesla. He was a very strange

person and definitely was obsessive compulsive.

>

> Isaac Newton had nervous breakdowns and great fits of rage against anyone who

disagreed with him.

>

> Beethoven had bipolar disorder, and wrote his most famous works while

suffering psychotic delusions.

>

> -

>

> --- In , Holt <danthemanholt@ ...>

wrote:

> >

> > Passionate and obsessive. Perhaps, but not at the dysfunctional level many

obsessed people are at that generates negative energy. Many people are obsessed

because that is all they are good at and avoid other aspects of their life that

they are not good at.

> >

> > Great thinkers came up with their ideas and inventions because they were

very grounded and at peace with themselves. You have to be a resolved

individual to tap into such potential.

> >

> > Dan Holt

> >

>

December 16, 2009

Why are Tesla and Edison not geniuses and inventors? That's absurd. Newton was

probably one of the most disturbed, paranoid, repressed, secretive, angry, and

obsessive individuals you would ever want to meet. He was definitely not " at

peace with himself. " He had an extended breakdown in 1693, which Newton said

resulted from lack of sleep, and historians relate to various causes such as

mercury poisoning from his alchemy experiments or the collapse of his chaste

relationship with Fatio de Duillier. Kepler is another obsessive, highly

disturbed genius. I don't know that you could say that this is the norm for

geniuses (can there a norm for geniuses?), but it is certainly not atypical to

be unbalanced and unhealthy.

Bill

>

> Tesla was not a genius. Isaac Newton was a genius and I hardly call that much

of a dysfunction. I don't think bipolar disorder is a dysfunction. It's an

imbalance due to trace mineral deficiency from depleted soil and depleted food.

>

> Dan Holt

>

> ________________________________

> From: <gdawson6@...>

>

> Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 9:24:53 PM

> Subject: Re: Psychiatric diagnosis vs. life

>

> Not all great thinkers are obsessive, but I definitely can't say that all

great thinkers were very grounded and at peace with themselves.

>

> A genius that comes to mind first is Nikola Tesla. He was a very strange

person and definitely was obsessive compulsive.

>

> Isaac Newton had nervous breakdowns and great fits of rage against anyone who

disagreed with him.

>

> Beethoven had bipolar disorder, and wrote his most famous works while

suffering psychotic delusions.

>

> -

>

> --- In , Holt <danthemanholt@ ...>

wrote:

> >

> > Passionate and obsessive. Perhaps, but not at the dysfunctional level many

obsessed people are at that generates negative energy. Many people are obsessed

because that is all they are good at and avoid other aspects of their life that

they are not good at.

> >

> > Great thinkers came up with their ideas and inventions because they were

very grounded and at peace with themselves. You have to be a resolved

individual to tap into such potential.

> >

> > Dan Holt

> >

>

December 16, 2009

Great thinkers came up with their ideas and inventions because they were very

grounded and at peace with themselves. You have to be a resolved individual to

tap into such potential.

>

This sounds rather idyllic . I live with an idea man and he is far from

grounded and at peace. He is a tormented soul. There is more pressure on this

kind of person to perform something great because they know they can but their

environment doesn't allow them to follow their path.

There are plenty of examples of creative people living a short life. Many of

them are quite ill. The one who comes to my mind is the jazz pianist Bill

. I think he died in his 30's? Depression is common amongst the creative

which translates to thyroid issues.

Manic bouts have long lasting effects on the body. It is pure adrenaline rush

that contributes to heart disease and inflammation. It leaves the body tired.

They also make people crazy.

Working on a project or idea can prevent one from sleeping. One just doesn't

say, " oh, look what time it is. Time to stop. " One goes to bed still trying to

solve the problem, that is what creativity is, problem solving.

Its a trade off, creativity or sleep, as I sit here suffering from adrenal

fatigue. Much of my younger years ran on pure adrenaline. Now, I make sure I

can get 8 -9 hours of sleep, which is required for the adrenals to heal.

Sorry, I didn't answer the question about tribal peoples but I bet they sleep,

especially ones who live without modern conveniences.

Joan

December 16, 2009

>

> Here's what I don't get about that - if it's a disorder, how does it cause the

highs they get, the reason many people with bipolar disorder don't want to take

their medicine - the euphoria, creativity, boundless energy, etc.? How can

deficiency cause that? Granted, in some it goes too far and they get themselves

into trouble but how many artists and inventors have a functional version of

that?

>

That is a good point. No one calls the highs the bad part of the disorder. It

is the lows that are unbearable and cause life dysfunction. And the highs and

lows are paired.

I agree with Joan that it is associated with all kinds of deficiencies -

dopamine, low beta endorphin therefore high receptors, alcoholic metabolism of

alcohol versus normal-person metabolism (there is a difference), maybe all kinds

of biochemical and behavioral causes. I agreewith Bill that it has long been

associated with intelligence and creativity.

However, I do know some creative people who used to be " tortured artists " but

healed with good nutrition. Turns out the creativity stays and all the angst,

drama, life crap and wasted cycles go away. So I now think that the tortured

part of the artist is from physical imbalance and if it was fixed the creativity

can soar without impediments. Too many artists and what not have been cut off

early for ignorance of such things.

December 16, 2009

> btw, my brain is much heavier than normal - I weighed myself both with and

without my brain, and I'm simply off the scale. But only a few friends would

consider me a genius.

Hey congrats! most impressive.

My friends have said, " check out the big brain on Connie " . I wonder if that

counts.

Connie

December 17, 2009

Why do you keep talking out of your posterior? You are completely, totally wrong

about Tesla and Edison. Read something about them (and not a web site). Looking

at Einstein's brain is complete idiocy--it's superstitious pseudoscience. Newton

was not a genius because he was efficient at storing and utilizing information,

whatever that means. Science doesn't work by induction from raw data.

Bill

>

> Genius is when you tap into the greatest potential of the brain and the

ability to utilize it for thinking and analyzing at the ultimate degree. I

believe at this point your brain becomes far mar efficient at storing

information and utilizing it. When Einstein's brain was looked at scientists

found that it was not any bigger than the average human brain. What they did

find was that there were far more connective neurons than what most people had

and that is what attributes to genius.

>

> Newton and Einstein paved the way for mind boggling discoveries. Tesla and

Edison just took the ideas and concepts from other great thinkers and made cool

inventions from it.

>

> It sounds liks Newton's problems were situational and chemical rather than

personal attitude.

>

> Dan Holt

>

> ________________________________

> From: Bill <lynchwt@...>

>

> Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 6:51:50 AM

> Subject: Re: Psychiatric diagnosis vs. life

>

> Why are Tesla and Edison not geniuses and inventors? That's absurd. Newton was