Re: Fiber Menace on probiotics

[Guest guest]

I just did a lot of research on pubmed on probiotics for a cat list. I am

going to write an article on it but if you go there you can read for

yourself. It does survive digestion but the spore kind has the best

survival rate however it is controversial by one person I found. I've taken

Primal Defense for years and it has done wonders for my IBD even before I

gave up gluten.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of paulsonntagericson

Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:34 PM

Subject: Fiber Menace on probiotics

Monastyrsky's make many good points, although I did find his assessment of

probiotic supplementation to be rather odd. He claims that conventional

probiotic supplements and lacto-fermented foods cannot survive the stomach

and are thus ineffective.

He goes on to claim that lacto-fermented foods do not contain sufficient

numbers or correct types of bacteria as are present in the colon and are

thus of little benefit to colonic health.

I've often wondered when watching commercials for the new group of probiotic

supplements from Danon, " do I really want a proprietary (GMO?) bactreia made

by Danon in my gut? " What ever happened to good old natural bacteria? (Guess

they're not good enough)

I'm curious what others think about all this. Can someone point me at some

research that attempts to address some of these points?

I found this WikiPedia article to be a good intro:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

I would guess that eating raw and fermented foods is how we inoculate our guts.

It's also possible that bacteria can enter through any mucus membrane and make

their way into the gut, although I think this would be a secondary route. I

think it's pretty clear that the stomach cannot sterilize out food 100%, else

food borne illness wouldn't occur.

There are multiple mechanisms in the body that manipulate the environment in the

gut to encourage certain species and discourage others. This is how certain

species end up in specific parts of the GI tract. There are between 300-1000

species in the gut with a small number of species comprising the majority of the

total count.

And like all natural processes things can go wrong. Ulcers appear to have a

bacterial factor. Food borne illness is obviously another example of a breakdown

in this control system. In fact imbalances probably serve as both cause and

effect depending on the abnormality.

And I'm sure that diet has a huge impact on which species are proliferated and

decimated since in biology population is largely controlled by food

availability. So when we make food choices we are feeding or starving specific

species. But there also appears to be some amount of control in the other

direction. Flora can signal that they want food and that in turn may partially

influence our cravings/desires for certain foods. Although to what extent is

unknown.

The influence on obesity sounds very interesting, although obviously more

research needs to be done:

" The mutual influence of gut flora composition and weight-condition is connected

to differences in the energy-reabsorbing potential of different ratios of

Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes, especially in the digestion of fatty acids and

dietary polysaccharides, as shown by experiments wherein the (caecum) gut flora

of obese mice was transplanted into germ free recipient mice, leading to an

increase in weight despite a decrease in food consumption.[31][32][33][34] "

Cheers,

>

> I just did a lot of research on pubmed on probiotics for a cat list. I am

> going to write an article on it but if you go there you can read for

> yourself. It does survive digestion but the spore kind has the best

> survival rate however it is controversial by one person I found. I've taken

> Primal Defense for years and it has done wonders for my IBD even before I

> gave up gluten.

>

>

>

> Dawn

>

>

>

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of paulsonntagericson

> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:34 PM

>

> Subject: Fiber Menace on probiotics

>

>

>

>

>

> Monastyrsky's make many good points, although I did find his assessment of

> probiotic supplementation to be rather odd. He claims that conventional

> probiotic supplements and lacto-fermented foods cannot survive the stomach

> and are thus ineffective.

>

> He goes on to claim that lacto-fermented foods do not contain sufficient

> numbers or correct types of bacteria as are present in the colon and are

> thus of little benefit to colonic health.

>

> I've often wondered when watching commercials for the new group of probiotic

> supplements from Danon, " do I really want a proprietary (GMO?) bactreia made

> by Danon in my gut? " What ever happened to good old natural bacteria? (Guess

> they're not good enough)

>

> I'm curious what others think about all this. Can someone point me at some

> research that attempts to address some of these points?

>

> I found this WikiPedia article to be a good intro:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

>

> Cheers,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with that " I think it's pretty clear that the stomach cannot

sterilize out food 100%, else food borne illness wouldn't occur. " The GI

tract is not sterile - although the closer to the stomach the closer to

sterile the stomach is (not taking into account conditions which lower

stomach acid - such as infanthood). But it is never 100% sterile - enough

bacteria can get through to act as seeds in the intestines for more bacteria

to grow.

Here's my take:

Probiotic supplementation - effectiveness varies widely by brand, type,

number and amount of microbes included in the supplement, type and amount of

microbial food included in the supplement, whether consumed with or without

food, the foods in your diet, etc. It is like introducing the seeds of one

or two new plants into a field of rapidly reproducing weeds - chances are,

the weeds will crowd them out.

Lacto-fermented foods - depends on age of ferment, whether consumed with or

without food, the foods in your diet. Lacto-fermented foods contain a

greater variety of microbes, but more importantly, microbes that are already

in an appropriate proportion to each other (a proper colony) AND accompanied

by food they clearly prefer. This is part of the reason I favor a

continuous fermentation method - there is always some newer food so that the

microbes can continue proliferating on their passage through your gut (as a

lot of the fibers they eat are non-digestible).

But, once again, it all depends on your normal diet. said " And I'm

sure that diet has a huge impact on which species are proliferated and

decimated since in biology population is largely controlled by food

availability. So when we make food choices we are feeding or starving

specific species. " and I totally agree! If you eat tons of grain,

sauerkraut isn't going to do you nearly as much good as sourdough. Because

once those microbial seeds have made it to your intestines, *they still need

to eat their preferred food*. Dairy ferments are best for those who eat

dairy. Grain ferments best for those who eat grain. Veggie ferments best

for those who eat veggies and so on and so forth.

So to say that lacto-fermented foods are ineffective, because they don't

survive the stomach, seems silly as there are other factors that could be

causing that phenomena outside of stomach acid (such as lack of their

preferred food - either during initial consumption or in the normal diet).

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:34 PM, paulsonntagericson <

paulsonntagericson@...> wrote:

> Monastyrsky's make many good points, although I did find his assessment of

> probiotic supplementation to be rather odd. He claims that conventional

> probiotic supplements and lacto-fermented foods cannot survive the stomach

> and are thus ineffective.

>

> He goes on to claim that lacto-fermented foods do not contain sufficient

> numbers or correct types of bacteria as are present in the colon and are

> thus of little benefit to colonic health.

>

> I've often wondered when watching commercials for the new group of

> probiotic supplements from Danon, " do I really want a proprietary (GMO?)

> bactreia made by Danon in my gut? " What ever happened to good old natural

> bacteria? (Guess they're not good enough)

>

> I'm curious what others think about all this. Can someone point me at some

> research that attempts to address some of these points?

>

> I found this WikiPedia article to be a good intro:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

>

> Cheers,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lana what grain ferments (besides beer or Kvass) that still have live microbial

life left to it? I had not thought about it like this microbe specific food for

the food group you are eating. But grains i am coming up blank other than the 2

above, which i don't like.

BTW - how old/is your baby now/doing? I read the old thread someone revived and

wondered what first foods and meals were like for (her?) baby.

--- In , Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...>

wrote:

>

> once those microbial seeds have made it to your intestines, *they still need

> to eat their preferred food*. Dairy ferments are best for those who eat

> dairy. Grain ferments best for those who eat grain. Veggie ferments best

> for those who eat veggies and so on and so forth.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sourdough, idli, dosa, off the top of my head (the heat applied doesn't

totally sterilize them). I think there's also some kind of barley water

ferment that isn't heated at all, although for the life of me I can't recall

what its called. Rejuvalac?

Another one that isn't technically a grain ferment but would theoretically

have grain loving microbes is nuku pickles - its a dry pickling technique

that uses bran (either wheat or rice).

I wouldn't consider beer or standard bread as a ferment worth eating (for

probiotic purposes) as they're made with one strain of yeast and no

bacteria...

I'll make a separate post about Sam.

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 4:37 PM, slbooks4me

<beauty4ashesisaiah61@...>wrote:

> Lana what grain ferments (besides beer or Kvass) that still have live

> microbial life left to it? I had not thought about it like this microbe

> specific food for the food group you are eating. But grains i am coming up

> blank other than the 2 above, which i don't like.

>

> BTW - how old/is your baby now/doing? I read the old thread someone

> revived and wondered what first foods and meals were like for (her?) baby.

>

>

[Guest guest]

With gluten intolerance I theoretically have some undigested wheat stuck up

in there but taking anything with gluten in it can set me off again with

some bad pain. What would be a good plan of attack?

I've been looking into taking Konjac powder as I heard it's a good medium

for probiotics to set up shop.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Lana Gibbons

Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:11 PM

Subject: Re: Fiber Menace on probiotics

Sourdough, idli, dosa, off the top of my head (the heat applied doesn't

totally sterilize them). I think there's also some kind of barley water

ferment that isn't heated at all, although for the life of me I can't recall

what its called. Rejuvalac?

Another one that isn't technically a grain ferment but would theoretically

have grain loving microbes is nuku pickles - its a dry pickling technique

that uses bran (either wheat or rice).

I wouldn't consider beer or standard bread as a ferment worth eating (for

probiotic purposes) as they're made with one strain of yeast and no

bacteria...

I'll make a separate post about Sam.

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 4:37 PM, slbooks4me

<beauty4ashesisaiah61@... <mailto:beauty4ashesisaiah61%40>

>wrote:

> Lana what grain ferments (besides beer or Kvass) that still have live

> microbial life left to it? I had not thought about it like this microbe

> specific food for the food group you are eating. But grains i am coming up

> blank other than the 2 above, which i don't like.

>

> BTW - how old/is your baby now/doing? I read the old thread someone

> revived and wondered what first foods and meals were like for (her?) baby.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've read a lot of good things about Konjac powder (it is a glucomannan),

but unless you're going to compose a regular part of your diet out of it I

wouldn't bother. They do make noodles out of it though...

Idli and Dosa are both GF - they're two parts rice flour to one part lentil

flour.

Guar Gum (a galactomannan) is a common additive in GF goods. I personally

feel its a better option than xanthan gum... and maybe even a better option

than Konjac powder (especially if your're also casein free, since it

provides galactose based oligosaccharides).

-Lana

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Dawn <blaidd1@...> wrote:

> With gluten intolerance I theoretically have some undigested wheat stuck up

> in there but taking anything with gluten in it can set me off again with

> some bad pain. What would be a good plan of attack?

>

>

> I've been looking into taking Konjac powder as I heard it's a good medium

> for probiotics to set up shop.

>

>

> Dawn

>