Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

[Guest guest]

I've quit using the stuff. Eggs from really pastured (on green grass) hens

contain A and D (and omega-3's). I've got 6 hens laying 5 eggs a day.

Raw milk from cows on pasture (again, with actual green grass to eat) also have

those fat-soluble vitamins. I've visited my dairy and see that the cows have

nice big grassy fields. They are beautiful and friendly and obviously have

never been mistreated.

You can look at the Monterey Bay Aquarium's site on which products are

sustainably harvested from the sea. I don't know if they mention the cod liver

oil/krill oil thing, but they may answer you if you ask. There are few cod

fisheries left that really can bear fishing - the US has overfished our cod to

the point they have banned fishing for them, last I heard. Their Seafood Watch

program says of cod:

" Atlantic Cod

Atlantic cod from North America, Iceland and the Barents Sea has suffered from

decades of overfishing. This has resulted in massive population declines. Cod is

often caught using trawls, which cause severe, long-term impacts to seafloor

habitats. " Avoid " trawl-caught Atlantic cod and enjoy cod caught with other gear

as a " Good Alternative. "

Summary

Atlantic cod is a deep-water fish, living at depths of more than 1,300 feet on

both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Cod is one of several " groundfish " species,

referring to the fact that they live on the seafloor.

For centuries, north Atlantic cod was one of the world's largest and most

reliable fisheries. However, overfishing threatens to bring this to an end.

Despite strict management in the U.S. and Canada in recent years, cod remains

overfished, with some populations so depleted that they're listed as endangered

or threatened. While cod populations in Iceland and the Northeast Arctic are in

better condition, overfishing still occurs in these regions.

Fishermen often catch cod with bottom trawl gear, which involves dragging large

nets across the seafloor. Trawling damages marine habitats and produces unwanted

bycatch. However, a portion of the Icelandic and Northeast Arctic fisheries

don't use habitat-damaging trawling gear, and as a result, are ranked as a " Good

Alternative. " Trawl-caught cod from Iceland and the Northeast Arctic is ranked

as " Avoid " due to the combined issues of poor stock status and damage to the

seafloor. "

So using a product from a type of fish that is being overharvested and living in

polluted water seems unnecessary to me.

>

> I've been researching both CLO and fish oil, trying to sift through the

abundant marketing, hype and contentious disagreement and get down to the facts.

Specifically, I'm interested in finding a product that is:

>

> 1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

> 2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

> 3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

> 4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

> 5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

> 6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

>

> Up until recently I have been using Green Pastures FCLO. However, I just

heard some disturbing things about CLO today from someone who has spent months

researching this subject that I'd like to verify or refute. This is what I was

told:

>

> 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume vitamin

D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with naturally

occurring D.

> 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

> 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as was

demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

>

> Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO, but

they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the EPA

and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

>

> Now also you have Mercola and Dr. Eades heavily promoting krill oil instead of

fish oil or CLO, claiming that the phospholipid structure of KO makes it more

bioavailable. Although the amounts of DHA and EPA are lower in KO, the claim is

that you need less since it is more readily absorbed. Anecdotal reports from

people that have tried KO suggest this may be true, as many immediately see an

anti-inflammatory effect that they didn't get on CLO or FO before. Published

studies have suggested KO may have a superior anti-inflammatory effect, but two

of the studies cited most often were performed by Neptune (the primary

manufacturer of KO). I found one recent study that seemed to be independent

that seems positive (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19854375), but I don't

have access to the full text so I can't be certain.

>

> On the other hand you have people saying that KO is more likely to be

contaminated than either FO or CLO. Yet proponents of KO point to independent

tests which " verify " its purity.

>

> It has become very difficult to separate fact from fiction in this matter and

determine which product is safest and most effective. In general I think

dramatically reducing omega-6 consumption is the best way to decrease

inflammation, but for people who have a chronic, inflammatory condition (heart

disease, autoimmune disease, etc.) I do see the benefit of additional DHA and

EPA.

>

> I'd love to hear from anyone in the WAPF community that has explored this

issue in depth. Hopefully we can put our heads together and figure this out.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

I think it's important to remember that most of the people Dr. Price studied,

did not consume cod liver oil. That said, they all had highly valued foods that

provided them with lots of vitamin A/D/K2.

WAPFers have a tendency to focus on cod liver oil. But as there is really only

one supplier of good quality CLO, it would be prudent to have multiple sources

of these important fat-soluble activators.

Vit. A is pretty easy as most animals livers are a great source. Vit. D is bit

tougher, although lard is certainly a good source. Vit. K2 is tougher still,

goose liver is a good source, but it very difficult to obtain a reliable supply.

I would be skeptical of any data coming from a manufacturer, dealer or retailer.

That doesn't mean ignore it or automatically judge it as false or misleading,

but independent corroboration is always better. The problem though is that there

is very little money for truly independent research so we often have to make

decisions without the best quality information.

As pertain Krill oil, I'm concerned about the sustainability of it in the long

term. It's a complex issue. You can't just look at total natural production and

harvesting levels. Krill grow everywhere, but they are concentrated in a smaller

number of areas and natural krill eaters tend to congregate in these areas. But

of course so do the krill fishermen! So krill harvesting may be disruptive of

the breeding and feeding cycles of many species. Also climate change may be

affecting krill populations. I don't pretend to know the body of research on

this subject, but it's certainly worth investigating.

In the mean time I plan to keep ordering FCLO from Green Pastures until I can

get reliable sources of beef, lard and goose liver.

Cheers,

> >

> > I've been researching both CLO and fish oil, trying to sift through the

abundant marketing, hype and contentious disagreement and get down to the facts.

Specifically, I'm interested in finding a product that is:

> >

> > 1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

> > 2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

> > 3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

> > 4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

> > 5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

> > 6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

> >

> > Up until recently I have been using Green Pastures FCLO. However, I just

heard some disturbing things about CLO today from someone who has spent months

researching this subject that I'd like to verify or refute. This is what I was

told:

> >

> > 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume

vitamin D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with

naturally occurring D.

> > 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

> > 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as

was demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

> >

> > Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO,

but they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the

EPA and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

> >

> > Now also you have Mercola and Dr. Eades heavily promoting krill oil instead

of fish oil or CLO, claiming that the phospholipid structure of KO makes it more

bioavailable. Although the amounts of DHA and EPA are lower in KO, the claim is

that you need less since it is more readily absorbed. Anecdotal reports from

people that have tried KO suggest this may be true, as many immediately see an

anti-inflammatory effect that they didn't get on CLO or FO before. Published

studies have suggested KO may have a superior anti-inflammatory effect, but two

of the studies cited most often were performed by Neptune (the primary

manufacturer of KO). I found one recent study that seemed to be independent

that seems positive (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19854375), but I don't

have access to the full text so I can't be certain.

> >

> > On the other hand you have people saying that KO is more likely to be

contaminated than either FO or CLO. Yet proponents of KO point to independent

tests which " verify " its purity.

> >

> > It has become very difficult to separate fact from fiction in this matter

and determine which product is safest and most effective. In general I think

dramatically reducing omega-6 consumption is the best way to decrease

inflammation, but for people who have a chronic, inflammatory condition (heart

disease, autoimmune disease, etc.) I do see the benefit of additional DHA and

EPA.

> >

> > I'd love to hear from anyone in the WAPF community that has explored this

issue in depth. Hopefully we can put our heads together and figure this out.

> >

> > Chris

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You should read the articles at www.greenpasture.org

Some of them might answer your questions.

The EPA and DHA content are on the labels when you buy them. If you'd like to

know them I can show you from the label we carry.

They get the cod in the time of the year they'd be higher in vitamin D.

Codliver oil is low in omega 6.

I see no logic in the argument that ko would have better anti-inflammatory

benefits of clo. CLO has a higher quantity of beneficial nutrients than ko.

There's a little bit of oxidation in the production of the ko pill.

Danny Holt

From: chriskjezp <chriskresser@...>

Subject: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

Date: Saturday, April 17, 2010, 6:46 PM

 

I've been researching both CLO and fish oil, trying to sift through the

abundant marketing, hype and contentious disagreement and get down to the facts.

Specifically, I'm interested in finding a product that is:

1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

Up until recently I have been using Green Pastures FCLO. However, I just heard

some disturbing things about CLO today from someone who has spent months

researching this subject that I'd like to verify or refute. This is what I was

told:

1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume vitamin

D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with naturally

occurring D.

2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent verification

that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as was

demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO, but

they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the EPA

and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

Now also you have Mercola and Dr. Eades heavily promoting krill oil instead of

fish oil or CLO, claiming that the phospholipid structure of KO makes it more

bioavailable. Although the amounts of DHA and EPA are lower in KO, the claim is

that you need less since it is more readily absorbed. Anecdotal reports from

people that have tried KO suggest this may be true, as many immediately see an

anti-inflammatory effect that they didn't get on CLO or FO before. Published

studies have suggested KO may have a superior anti-inflammatory effect, but two

of the studies cited most often were performed by Neptune (the primary

manufacturer of KO). I found one recent study that seemed to be independent

that seems positive (http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/19854375), but I don't

have access to the full text so I can't be certain.

On the other hand you have people saying that KO is more likely to be

contaminated than either FO or CLO. Yet proponents of KO point to independent

tests which " verify " its purity.

It has become very difficult to separate fact from fiction in this matter and

determine which product is safest and most effective. In general I think

dramatically reducing omega-6 consumption is the best way to decrease

inflammation, but for people who have a chronic, inflammatory condition (heart

disease, autoimmune disease, etc.) I do see the benefit of additional DHA and

EPA.

I'd love to hear from anyone in the WAPF community that has explored this issue

in depth. Hopefully we can put our heads together and figure this out.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Dave did a private phone call with chapter leaders, so much of this information

was made available to them to disseminate.

> 1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

> 2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

> 3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

> 4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

> 5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

> 6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

>

> Up until recently I have been using Green Pastures FCLO. However, I just

heard some disturbing things about CLO today from someone who has spent months

researching this subject that I'd like to verify or refute. This is what I was

told:

>

> 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume vitamin

D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with naturally

occurring D.

I don't know if this is true, but Cod would probably be eating other marine

organisms that do contain large amounts of D if they do not make it themselves.

Dave has the FCLO tested on a very regular basis, by an independent lab, and has

made those results available on a limited basis. You have to understand that

with the gov't the way it is right now, GP has to be very careful with what it

claims/shares, and then how it is used. Since it is a real food, its nutrients

(especially A and D) vary from batch to batch, and this variance could get them

in a ton of trouble with labeling requirements, etc.

Remember what has happened to Wilderness Family Naturals, and you get an idea

about GP's hesitance to share certain information.

> 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

There is a pretty stringent law about this in California, and GP has passed

their standard via independent tests. I believe a few other fish oils are being

sued under it currently.

> 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as was

demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

Per the questions about the sustainability of the cod, I cannot answer that, but

the FCLO is made only from the livers, which are usually THROWN AWAY because

there is little to no demand. Thus, Dave is doing a good thing by diverting

what is a nutrient dense food from the waste stream, and thus the making FCLO

doesn't contribute to overfishing, etc. If you can imagine, just like with beef

liver and heart in the US, there is far more supply than the demand nutrient

dense eaters alone can generate for these items.

Last, in terms of sources, I think even Sally envisions a day when you can get

your FCLO and similar items right from local farms where these items are

sustainably and safely made. But that is an ambitious and long term goal!

[Guest guest]

> 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume vitamin

D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with naturally

occurring D.

not correct

>

> 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

not correct, PCB's are posted on the web site, when web master gives me more

test data lines i'll post the metals (Not detected or ND). you must not have

been involved with the chapter leader conference call. this conference call

would have answered most of your questons.

>

> 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as was

demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

? i don't think you know the subject matter...or are missing knowledge in the

testing field. and not enough info for comment other than offhand. toxins are

in the air you breath, your coffee, strawberries ect........

>

>

>

> Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO, but

they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the EPA

and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

it is posted on the web site, once we have a new fold out label (so we can put

more written things on the label) it will be in the fold out section. EPA/DHA

have so little to do with real FCLO that it is not a major point of discussion.

It is only a major point of discussion for some because of the media medicine.

Industrialized version of fish oils have nothing left to discuss but a few fatty

acids, this is why the media medicine discussion circles around fatty acids. i

assure you that EPA/DHA are not the real point of the sacred food.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume

vitamin D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with

naturally occurring D.

>

> not correct

>

Care to elaborate on this or point me to a source of information that confirms

your statement? Why should I simply accept what you say because you say it?

>

> >

> > 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

>

>

> not correct, PCB's are posted on the web site, when web master gives me more

test data lines i'll post the metals (Not detected or ND). you must not have

been involved with the chapter leader conference call. this conference call

would have answered most of your questons.

>

How could I be involved with the chapter leader conference call when I'm not a

chapter leader? And why should the chapter leaders be the only ones privy to

this information? Is this a cult or something? Furthermore, even if I was a

chapter leader I would still want to see documentation rather than relying

simply on what the owner of a company tells me about the product he sells. This

is nothing personal and I am not singling you out. As a health care

practitioner I feel a moral and legal responsibility to make sure the products

I'm recommending are safe.

> >

> > 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as

was demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

> >

> ? i don't think you know the subject matter...or are missing knowledge in the

testing field. and not enough info for comment other than offhand. toxins are

in the air you breath, your coffee, strawberries ect........

That is a spurious answer, Dave. I'm well aware that toxins are in our

environment. Which is exactly why we need to make every effort to avoid

ingesting them through food. I know that several labs are being sued for false

claims they made about PCBs. I'm aware that the levels of PCBs in some of those

labs' products are still at levels considered safe by the state of California.

However, that's not why they're being sued. They're being sued because they

didn't disclose those levels.

Please help me understand why you are resistant to providing a COA from an

independent lab either on your website or via email to anyone who asks.

>

> >

> > Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO,

but they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the

EPA and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

>

> it is posted on the web site, once we have a new fold out label (so we can

put more written things on the label) it will be in the fold out section.

EPA/DHA have so little to do with real FCLO that it is not a major point of

discussion. It is only a major point of discussion for some because of the

media medicine. Industrialized version of fish oils have nothing left to

discuss but a few fatty acids, this is why the media medicine discussion

circles around fatty acids. i assure you that EPA/DHA are not the real point of

the sacred food.

>

>

Yes, I know this is how you feel. But you must understand that there are many

others who may choose to use your product that have a different perspective. As

a WAPF member and advocate of nutrient-dense, whole foods, I'm well aware of the

benefit of consuming foods in their natural state. I'm also aware that there

are many co-factors in whole foods necessary for the assimilation of the

nutrients found in those foods. That said, that does not mean that the level of

nutrients is irrelevant.

If you are making a claim that the entire body of scientific research (not just

media medicine) that indicates EPA and DHA levels are significant is wrong, then

perhaps you could provide us with some evidence which supports your view.

Again, it's not enough that you simply say it's so (for me, at least).

I appreciate the contribution you've made in making FCLO available. I just

don't understand your reluctance to provide information to customers that is -

in my opinion at least - well within their rights to have. I want to know what

I'm putting in my body, and I want to know what I'm recommending my patients and

loved ones are putting in theirs.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> I think it's important to remember that most of the people Dr. Price studied,

did not consume cod liver oil. That said, they all had highly valued foods that

provided them with lots of vitamin A/D/K2.

I agree completely. The problem, as you point out below, is that whole-food,

uncontaminated sources of D are hard to come by now.

>

> Vit. A is pretty easy as most animals livers are a great source. Vit. D is bit

tougher, although lard is certainly a good source. Vit. K2 is tougher still,

goose liver is a good source, but it very difficult to obtain a reliable supply.

What about hard cheeses, pasture-raised egg yolks, grass-fed butter and homemade

kefir and yogurt from raw milk for K2? None of these sources is hugely high in

K2 on their own, but if they are all consumed on a daily basis, that should be

sufficient.

>

> I would be skeptical of any data coming from a manufacturer, dealer or

retailer. That doesn't mean ignore it or automatically judge it as false or

misleading, but independent corroboration is always better. The problem though

is that there is very little money for truly independent research so we often

have to make decisions without the best quality information.

>

That's exactly what my original post is about. I'm not asking for independent

research from GP - just independent verification. That is not an unreasonable

request.

> As pertain Krill oil, I'm concerned about the sustainability of it in the long

term. It's a complex issue. You can't just look at total natural production and

harvesting levels. Krill grow everywhere, but they are concentrated in a smaller

number of areas and natural krill eaters tend to congregate in these areas. But

of course so do the krill fishermen! So krill harvesting may be disruptive of

the breeding and feeding cycles of many species. Also climate change may be

affecting krill populations. I don't pretend to know the body of research on

this subject, but it's certainly worth investigating.

>

I share your concern. I've read conflicting information about the

sustainability of KO production, and it is difficult to know at present whether

it is or not.

We are fortunate to have good sources of beef liver and lard. I haven't yet

been able to find pastured goose liver.

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- In , " louisvillewapf " <louisvillewapf@...>

wrote:

>

>

> Dave did a private phone call with chapter leaders, so much of this

information was made available to them to disseminate.

>

> > 1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

> > 2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

> > 3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

> > 4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

> > 5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

> > 6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

I'm aware of this call, but as I wasn't on it and I'm not a chapter leader I

didn't receive any of this information. Furthermore, I would need to see

independent verification of these claims to accept them. As I've stated

elsewhere in this thread, I feel a moral and legal obligation to be sure that

what I'm recommending to my patients is safe and has the ingredients it claims

to have.

I do not understand why this information is only made available to chapter

leaders. I'm sorry, but as much respect as I have for the WAPF it is not in my

nature to simply accept something I am told by a chapter leader or manufacturer

of a product without investigation.

> I don't know if this is true, but Cod would probably be eating other marine

organisms that do contain large amounts of D if they do not make it themselves.

Dave has the FCLO tested on a very regular basis, by an independent lab, and has

made those results available on a limited basis. You have to understand that

with the gov't the way it is right now, GP has to be very careful with what it

claims/shares, and then how it is used. Since it is a real food, its nutrients

(especially A and D) vary from batch to batch, and this variance could get them

in a ton of trouble with labeling requirements, etc.

I don't know if it's true either, that's why I'm asking. And I'd love to see

some proof (and not just conjecture) that it's not true. An independent lab

test would settle that quite nicely. If the levels of D vary from batch to

batch, then a series of lab tests would suffice. Is there a law that prevents

GP from printing a range for vitamin A & D on the label? I imagine there may

be, but I'm curious.

I understand that FCLO is a food and I can certainly accept that there are

varying levels of A & D in each batch. However, it would be helpful to know a

general range that those levels fall into. If one batch has no D at all, and

another has 200 IU per dose, and a third has 700 IU, that would be of concern to

me. If the range is smaller, it would be fine. This is again why I'd like to

see tests.

>

> Remember what has happened to Wilderness Family Naturals, and you get an idea

about GP's hesitance to share certain information.

My understanding is that WFN got in trouble for making claims that their

products heal disease. This seems like a separate issue to me. Perhaps I

missed something else that happened with them. In that case, if you could

clarify I'd appreciate it.

>

> > 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

>

> There is a pretty stringent law about this in California, and GP has passed

their standard via independent tests. I believe a few other fish oils are being

sued under it currently.

Yes, that is the point! Why is it unreasonable for me to ask for these tests

knowing that other companies are being sued for failing them?

>

> Per the questions about the sustainability of the cod, I cannot answer that,

but the FCLO is made only from the livers, which are usually THROWN AWAY because

there is little to no demand. Thus, Dave is doing a good thing by diverting

what is a nutrient dense food from the waste stream, and thus the making FCLO

doesn't contribute to overfishing, etc. If you can imagine, just like with beef

liver and heart in the US, there is far more supply than the demand nutrient

dense eaters alone can generate for these items.

I don't question the sustainability of CLO at this point.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Chris

[Guest guest]

EPA and DHA are something that should be promoted as FCLO's major benefits.

Every fish oil advertises it but with FCLO you get forms of these fatty acids

without any denaturing or oxidation.

These fatty acids are deficient in most Americans. Because of Americans

frankenfood intake they can't convert other omega 3 fatty acids to dha or epa,

not even ground flaxseed. This just adds to the list of reasons why someone

should take fermented codliver oil.

Danny Holt

> 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume vitamin

D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with naturally

occurring D.

not correct

>

> 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

not correct, PCB's are posted on the web site, when web master gives me more

test data lines i'll post the metals (Not detected or ND). you must not have

been involved with the chapter leader conference call. this conference call

would have answered most of your questons.

>

> 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as was

demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

? i don't think you know the subject matter...or are missing knowledge in the

testing field. and not enough info for comment other than offhand. toxins are

in the air you breath, your coffee, strawberries ect........

>

>

>

> Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO, but

they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the EPA

and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

it is posted on the web site, once we have a new fold out label (so we can put

more written things on the label) it will be in the fold out section. EPA/DHA

have so little to do with real FCLO that it is not a major point of discussion.

It is only a major point of discussion for some because of the media medicine.

Industrialized version of fish oils have nothing left to discuss but a few fatty

acids, this is why the media medicine discussion circles around fatty acids. i

assure you that EPA/DHA are not the real point of the sacred food.

>

[Guest guest]

Someone on another forum referred me to this:

http://www.greenpasture.org/retail/?t=products & a=test-data

This is exactly what I was looking for. The only thing missing is data about

dioxins, metals and peroxides (i.e. TOTOX), and an actual COA from the lab that

did the testing.

I understand that FCLO is a whole food and the nutrient levels will vary. All I

wanted was an average or range, and I see that here.

I wish Dave or someone else would have referred me to this sooner!

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> EPA and DHA are something that should be promoted as FCLO's major benefits.

Every fish oil advertises it but with FCLO you get forms of these fatty acids

without any denaturing or oxidation.

>

> These fatty acids are deficient in most Americans. Because of Americans

frankenfood intake they can't convert other omega 3 fatty acids to dha or epa,

not even ground flaxseed. This just adds to the list of reasons why someone

should take fermented codliver oil.

>

> Danny Holt

>

I completely agree. Also, as everyone here would agree it's better for people

to dramatically reduce their omega-6 intake (rather than taking huge amounts of

omega-3) to bring their ratio back into line with historical levels.

However, with patients struggling with chronic inflammatory conditions (i.e.

Crohn's, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.) there is a lot of research suggesting a

higher dose of DHA (1-1.5 grams) is therapeutic. At this level I realize that

DHA is being used more like a pharmacological treatment than a supplement or

food, but when compared to the drugs people with Crohn's and RA usually take, a

pharmaceutical-grade DHA supplement is a better choice.

In this situation I would have patients take the FCLO to make sure they are

getting the whole-food components and co-factors, and add a purified,

molecularly distilled fish oil with a higher concentration of DHA. I only

recommend this in cases where inflammation is severe and intractable.

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > > 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume

vitamin D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with

naturally occurring D.

> >

> > not correct

> >

> Care to elaborate on this or point me to a source of information that confirms

your statement? Why should I simply accept what you say because you say it?

> >

> > >

you made the original claim, can you provide sources?

> How could I be involved with the chapter leader conference call when I'm not a

chapter leader? And why should the chapter leaders be the only ones privy to

this information? Is this a cult or something?

Ad hominem attacks are not constructive. Plus you'll attract more bees with

honey than vinegar.

Chapter leaders are information multipliers so it makes sense to give them

information so they can distribute it to their chapter members. Chapter members

rely on their chapter leaders for guidance on many issues.

That being said, I agree that the information you are requesting should be

available at least upon request.

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

Perhaps you would find it helpful to search the green pasture website for the

information you want. Try using google and do the following searches:

site:greenpasture.org PCB

site:greenpasture.org EPA

site:greenpasture.org DHA

You will see that the information I think you want is on the site.

Doesn't this page have what you want?:

http://www.greenpasture.org/retail/?t=products & a=test-data

It lists EPA/DHA and PCB content. If you want a certificate from the lab that GP

uses, I think your basically accusing Dave of lying on this page? If you are

that paranoid, I would suggest taking the FCLO to a lab of your choice and

getting it tested yourself.

Cheers,

> >

> > EPA and DHA are something that should be promoted as FCLO's major benefits.

Every fish oil advertises it but with FCLO you get forms of these fatty acids

without any denaturing or oxidation.

> >

> > These fatty acids are deficient in most Americans. Because of Americans

frankenfood intake they can't convert other omega 3 fatty acids to dha or epa,

not even ground flaxseed. This just adds to the list of reasons why someone

should take fermented codliver oil.

> >

> > Danny Holt

> >

>

> I completely agree. Also, as everyone here would agree it's better for people

to dramatically reduce their omega-6 intake (rather than taking huge amounts of

omega-3) to bring their ratio back into line with historical levels.

>

> However, with patients struggling with chronic inflammatory conditions (i.e.

Crohn's, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.) there is a lot of research suggesting a

higher dose of DHA (1-1.5 grams) is therapeutic. At this level I realize that

DHA is being used more like a pharmacological treatment than a supplement or

food, but when compared to the drugs people with Crohn's and RA usually take, a

pharmaceutical-grade DHA supplement is a better choice.

>

> In this situation I would have patients take the FCLO to make sure they are

getting the whole-food components and co-factors, and add a purified,

molecularly distilled fish oil with a higher concentration of DHA. I only

recommend this in cases where inflammation is severe and intractable.

>

[Guest guest]

You might want to consider farmed salmon then. 4 oz contain 1.6g of DHA. 22:6 n3

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4259/2

I would recommend wild sockeye salmon. Not sure if the D content changes from

times of the year with this species. Farmed salmon likely wouldn't have any

vitamin D in it.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice & dbid=104

Or just have wild red sockeye salmon instead of fclo. However, you need to get

some that aren't exposed to light as the light destroys the fat soluble vitamin

content, like canned salmon. Not a significant source of vitamin k2. I also

don't support the possible extinction we'd be putting the species through.

Unlike fclo you likely will put the salmon through heat, one less benefit. You

would have to get other sources of k2 to have with it like raw milk, eggs, and

beef liver preferably from pastured grass fed animals.

Thanks,

Danny Holt

From: chriskjezp <chriskresser@...>

Subject: Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 8:49 AM

 

--- In , Holt <danthemanholt@ ...>

wrote:

>

> EPA and DHA are something that should be promoted as FCLO's major benefits.

Every fish oil advertises it but with FCLO you get forms of these fatty acids

without any denaturing or oxidation.

>

> These fatty acids are deficient in most Americans. Because of Americans

frankenfood intake they can't convert other omega 3 fatty acids to dha or epa,

not even ground flaxseed. This just adds to the list of reasons why someone

should take fermented codliver oil.

>

> Danny Holt

>

I completely agree. Also, as everyone here would agree it's better for people

to dramatically reduce their omega-6 intake (rather than taking huge amounts of

omega-3) to bring their ratio back into line with historical levels.

However, with patients struggling with chronic inflammatory conditions (i.e.

Crohn's, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.) there is a lot of research suggesting a

higher dose of DHA (1-1.5 grams) is therapeutic. At this level I realize that

DHA is being used more like a pharmacological treatment than a supplement or

food, but when compared to the drugs people with Crohn's and RA usually take, a

pharmaceutical- grade DHA supplement is a better choice.

In this situation I would have patients take the FCLO to make sure they are

getting the whole-food components and co-factors, and add a purified,

molecularly distilled fish oil with a higher concentration of DHA. I only

recommend this in cases where inflammation is severe and intractable.

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> Perhaps you would find it helpful to search the green pasture website for the

information you want. Try using google and do the following searches:

>

> site:greenpasture.org PCB

> site:greenpasture.org EPA

> site:greenpasture.org DHA

>

> You will see that the information I think you want is on the site.

>

> Doesn't this page have what you want?:

>

> http://www.greenpasture.org/retail/?t=products & a=test-data

>

> It lists EPA/DHA and PCB content. If you want a certificate from the lab that

GP uses, I think your basically accusing Dave of lying on this page? If you are

that paranoid, I would suggest taking the FCLO to a lab of your choice and

getting it tested yourself.

>

> Cheers,

>

>

,

There's a difference between accusing someone of lying and wanting to see

documented, third-party proof of claims being made - especially in an industry

that is rife with false claims.

I don't know Dave personally or professionally. Why should I trust what he says

on faith? You may call it paranoia, I call it a a concern for and sense of

responsibility to my patients and my family.

I truly don't understand the attitude I see here about this. The WAPF is

constantly advising its members not to trust the claims of researchers and

medical authorities without verifying them (using either traditional wisdom or

modern science). Yet am I expected to accept something a WAPF chapter leader or

product manufacturer associated with WAPF says simply because they say it?

I apologize about the cult reference. That was out of line. I'm just

frustrated, and frankly baffled, by the resistance I'm encountering in trying to

get information which I think should be freely available.

No one has yet given me a valid reason why it shouldn't be.

I did find the chart here

(http://www.greenpasture.org/retail/?t=products & a=test-data) which has most of

the information I need. However, I'd still like to see info on dioxins, metals

and peroxide values, as well as an independent COA.

I think it's quite disingenuous to suggest that I, as a customer, should pay to

have the product tested at a lab. Is that not the responsibility of a

manufacturer?

Chris

[Guest guest]

You might want to consider have patients take 2-4tspn of this stuff as it's low

in vitamin D, so no D poisoning:

http://www.gardenoflife.com/ProductsforLife/SUPPLEMENTS/FoundationalNutrition/Ol\

deWorldIceland/tabid/653/Default.aspx

There's an unheated source of DHA.

Thanks,

Danny Holt

From: chriskjezp <chriskresser@...>

Subject: Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 8:49 AM

 

--- In , Holt <danthemanholt@ ...>

wrote:

>

> EPA and DHA are something that should be promoted as FCLO's major benefits.

Every fish oil advertises it but with FCLO you get forms of these fatty acids

without any denaturing or oxidation.

>

> These fatty acids are deficient in most Americans. Because of Americans

frankenfood intake they can't convert other omega 3 fatty acids to dha or epa,

not even ground flaxseed. This just adds to the list of reasons why someone

should take fermented codliver oil.

>

> Danny Holt

>

I completely agree. Also, as everyone here would agree it's better for people

to dramatically reduce their omega-6 intake (rather than taking huge amounts of

omega-3) to bring their ratio back into line with historical levels.

However, with patients struggling with chronic inflammatory conditions (i.e.

Crohn's, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.) there is a lot of research suggesting a

higher dose of DHA (1-1.5 grams) is therapeutic. At this level I realize that

DHA is being used more like a pharmacological treatment than a supplement or

food, but when compared to the drugs people with Crohn's and RA usually take, a

pharmaceutical- grade DHA supplement is a better choice.

In this situation I would have patients take the FCLO to make sure they are

getting the whole-food components and co-factors, and add a purified,

molecularly distilled fish oil with a higher concentration of DHA. I only

recommend this in cases where inflammation is severe and intractable.

[Guest guest]

>

> You might want to consider farmed salmon then. 4 oz contain 1.6g of DHA. 22:6

n3

>

> http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4259/2

>

> I would recommend wild sockeye salmon. Not sure if the D content changes from

times of the year with this species. Farmed salmon likely wouldn't have any

vitamin D in it.

>

> http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice & dbid=104

>

> Or just have wild red sockeye salmon instead of fclo. However, you need to get

some that aren't exposed to light as the light destroys the fat soluble vitamin

content, like canned salmon. Not a significant source of vitamin k2. I also

don't support the possible extinction we'd be putting the species through.

Unlike fclo you likely will put the salmon through heat, one less benefit. You

would have to get other sources of k2 to have with it like raw milk, eggs, and

beef liver preferably from pastured grass fed animals.

>

> Thanks,

> Danny Holt

The Vital Choice Wild Salmon Oil is a possible alternative. It is MSC and NSF

certified, which indicates that it's being harvested in a sustainable manner.

It has 340 IU of D and 2,000 IU of A per serving, as well as 600 mg of omega-3

(240 EPA/220 DHA).

http://www.vitalchoice.com/product/omega-3-salmon-oil/1000-mg-sockeye-salmon-oil\

-softgels-90-count

An option for providing therapeutic doses of D3 (>2,000 IU) which is hard to get

from FCLO alone is Vital Choice's D3. The D3 is extracted from lanolin, as most

D3 supplements are, but it is encapsulated in a wild salmon oil base, which

should improve absorption and assimilation.

http://www.vitalchoice.com/vitamin_D3_180x2000IU

Xtend Life has a DHA fish oil that is a blend of whole hoki oil and purified,

molecularly distilled tuna oil. The DHA levels are high in this product - three

capsules twice a day would yield 1.6 grams. Although this is a processed

product and thus inferior to whole food products, it seems like a good choice

for those who want a therapeutic dose of DHA. Their COA is posted on their

website and the tests are performed by two government approved labs that are

linked to from their site. Vitamin D levels are negligible in this product, so

FCLO or Wild Salmon (oil or whole fish) should be taken along with it. My only

hesitation about this product is that I do not know much about the company.

http://www.xtend-life.com/product/Omega_3_DHA_Fish_Oil.aspx

[Guest guest]

>

> You might want to consider have patients take 2-4tspn of this stuff as it's

low in vitamin D, so no D poisoning:

>

>

http://www.gardenoflife.com/ProductsforLife/SUPPLEMENTS/FoundationalNutrition/Ol\

deWorldIceland/tabid/653/Default.aspx

>

> There's an unheated source of DHA.

>

> Thanks,

> Danny Holt

Garden of Life is Jordan Rubin's company. Jordan Rubin has been caught lying

repeatedly. His degrees are from phony, now defunct internet universities. He

makes claims that he's had researched published in peer-reviewed journals, which

isn't true. http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art35127.asp

Because of this, I don't trust any of his products and don't recommend them.

[Guest guest]

The vital choice isn't that great of a value. Not really that much DHA for the

price. For sources of vitamin a, d, and k2 I'd go elsewhere. You'd mine as well

just buy the farmed salmon instead. Neither supplement had a significant source

of DHA. I like animal derived D3/D2/metabolites combination from wild salmon,

codliver oil, raw milk, etc. I don't trust lanolin as a source. Not a great

value money wise either as it doesn't have much vitamin A or any K2 in it.

This would be a better value than those two supplements:

http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/product/COD-LIVER-OIL/superfoods-supplements

Xtend Life sounded good. 6 capsules would provide 1.5g of DHA. Though it comes

out to $50 a month if you do that. I personally would go with Jordan Rubin's

codliver oil myself as it would be $20 cheaper and isn't heated at all. Then

again why not just have farmed salmon.

Danny Holt

The Vital Choice Wild Salmon Oil is a possible alternative. It is MSC and NSF

certified, which indicates that it's being harvested in a sustainable manner.

It has 340 IU of D and 2,000 IU of A per serving, as well as 600 mg of omega-3

(240 EPA/220 DHA). http://www.vitalcho ice.com/product/ omega-3-salmon-

oil/1000- mg-sockeye- salmon-oil- softgels- 90-count

An option for providing therapeutic doses of D3 (>2,000 IU) which is hard to get

from FCLO alone is Vital Choice's D3. The D3 is extracted from lanolin, as most

D3 supplements are, but it is encapsulated in a wild salmon oil base, which

should improve absorption and assimilation. http://www.vitalcho

ice.com/vitamin_ D3_180x2000IU

Xtend Life has a DHA fish oil that is a blend of whole hoki oil and purified,

molecularly distilled tuna oil. The DHA levels are high in this product - three

capsules twice a day would yield 1.6 grams. Although this is a processed

product and thus inferior to whole food products, it seems like a good choice

for those who want a therapeutic dose of DHA. Their COA is posted on their

website and the tests are performed by two government approved labs that are

linked to from their site. Vitamin D levels are negligible in this product, so

FCLO or Wild Salmon (oil or whole fish) should be taken along with it. My only

hesitation about this product is that I do not know much about the company.

http://www.xtend- life.com/ product/Omega_ 3_DHA_Fish_ Oil.aspx

[Guest guest]

>

> The vital choice isn't that great of a value. Not really that much DHA for the

price. For sources of vitamin a, d, and k2 I'd go elsewhere. You'd mine as well

just buy the farmed salmon instead. Neither supplement had a significant source

of DHA. I like animal derived D3/D2/metabolites combination from wild salmon,

codliver oil, raw milk, etc. I don't trust lanolin as a source. Not a great

value money wise either as it doesn't have much vitamin A or any K2 in it.

It's very difficult to get >4,000 IU comfortably from animal derived sources.

For patients that are very low in D or need more, I recommend a combination of a

whole-food source (CLO) plus an isolated source (emulsified D oil, D3 capsules,

etc.). It is in this second category (isolated source) that I was considering

the Vital Choice D. Actually, I use a D3 liquid with these patients but it's

only available to health care practitioners. I'm looking for a good source of

high-dose D3 that I can recommend to people that aren't my patients that can buy

it themselves.

>

> This would be a better value than those two supplements:

>

> http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/product/COD-LIVER-OIL/superfoods-supplements

Is that product heated? Have you tasted the oil?

>

> Xtend Life sounded good. 6 capsules would provide 1.5g of DHA. Though it comes

out to $50 a month if you do that. I personally would go with Jordan Rubin's

codliver oil myself as it would be $20 cheaper and isn't heated at all. Then

again why not just have farmed salmon.

>

I would definitely have to see reliable documentation before I recommended

Jordan Rubin's product, for the reasons I explained in my previous post.

Curious to know if anyone has tasted it. Most of my patients won't take

straight oil.

[Guest guest]

I stopped using it after reading Ray Peat's " Oils in Context " .

Joan

> >

> > I've been researching both CLO and fish oil, trying to sift through the

abundant marketing, hype and contentious disagreement and get down to the facts.

Specifically, I'm interested in finding a product that is:

> >

> > 1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

> > 2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

> > 3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

> > 4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

> > 5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

> > 6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

> >

> > Up until recently I have been using Green Pastures FCLO. However, I just

heard some disturbing things about CLO today from someone who has spent months

researching this subject that I'd like to verify or refute. This is what I was

told:

> >

> > 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume

vitamin D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with

naturally occurring D.

> > 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

> > 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as

was demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

> >

> > Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO,

but they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the

EPA and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

> >

> > Now also you have Mercola and Dr. Eades heavily promoting krill oil instead

of fish oil or CLO, claiming that the phospholipid structure of KO makes it more

bioavailable. Although the amounts of DHA and EPA are lower in KO, the claim is

that you need less since it is more readily absorbed. Anecdotal reports from

people that have tried KO suggest this may be true, as many immediately see an

anti-inflammatory effect that they didn't get on CLO or FO before. Published

studies have suggested KO may have a superior anti-inflammatory effect, but two

of the studies cited most often were performed by Neptune (the primary

manufacturer of KO). I found one recent study that seemed to be independent

that seems positive (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19854375), but I don't

have access to the full text so I can't be certain.

> >

> > On the other hand you have people saying that KO is more likely to be

contaminated than either FO or CLO. Yet proponents of KO point to independent

tests which " verify " its purity.

> >

> > It has become very difficult to separate fact from fiction in this matter

and determine which product is safest and most effective. In general I think

dramatically reducing omega-6 consumption is the best way to decrease

inflammation, but for people who have a chronic, inflammatory condition (heart

disease, autoimmune disease, etc.) I do see the benefit of additional DHA and

EPA.

> >

> > I'd love to hear from anyone in the WAPF community that has explored this

issue in depth. Hopefully we can put our heads together and figure this out.

> >

> > Chris

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Can you share Ray Peat's article? Link to it?

Danny Holt

From: coloredoctave <joanlulich@...>

Subject: Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 1:38 PM

 

I stopped using it after reading Ray Peat's " Oils in Context " .

Joan

>

> I've quit using the stuff. Eggs from really pastured (on green grass) hens

contain A and D (and omega-3's). I've got 6 hens laying 5 eggs a day.

>

> Raw milk from cows on pasture (again, with actual green grass to eat) also

have those fat-soluble vitamins. I've visited my dairy and see that the cows

have nice big grassy fields. They are beautiful and friendly and obviously have

never been mistreated.

>

> You can look at the Monterey Bay Aquarium's site on which products are

sustainably harvested from the sea. I don't know if they mention the cod liver

oil/krill oil thing, but they may answer you if you ask. There are few cod

fisheries left that really can bear fishing - the US has overfished our cod to

the point they have banned fishing for them, last I heard. Their Seafood Watch

program says of cod:

>

> " Atlantic Cod

> Atlantic cod from North America, Iceland and the Barents Sea has suffered from

decades of overfishing. This has resulted in massive population declines. Cod is

often caught using trawls, which cause severe, long-term impacts to seafloor

habitats. " Avoid " trawl-caught Atlantic cod and enjoy cod caught with other gear

as a " Good Alternative. "

>

>

> Summary

> Atlantic cod is a deep-water fish, living at depths of more than 1,300 feet on

both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Cod is one of several " groundfish " species,

referring to the fact that they live on the seafloor.

>

> For centuries, north Atlantic cod was one of the world's largest and most

reliable fisheries. However, overfishing threatens to bring this to an end.

Despite strict management in the U.S. and Canada in recent years, cod remains

overfished, with some populations so depleted that they're listed as endangered

or threatened. While cod populations in Iceland and the Northeast Arctic are in

better condition, overfishing still occurs in these regions.

>

> Fishermen often catch cod with bottom trawl gear, which involves dragging

large nets across the seafloor. Trawling damages marine habitats and produces

unwanted bycatch. However, a portion of the Icelandic and Northeast Arctic

fisheries don't use habitat-damaging trawling gear, and as a result, are ranked

as a " Good Alternative. " Trawl-caught cod from Iceland and the Northeast Arctic

is ranked as " Avoid " due to the combined issues of poor stock status and damage

to the seafloor. "

>

> So using a product from a type of fish that is being overharvested and living

in polluted water seems unnecessary to me.

>

> --- In , " chriskjezp " <chriskresser@ >

wrote:

> >

> > I've been researching both CLO and fish oil, trying to sift through the

abundant marketing, hype and contentious disagreement and get down to the facts.

Specifically, I'm interested in finding a product that is:

> >

> > 1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

> > 2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

> > 3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

> > 4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

> > 5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

> > 6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

> >

> > Up until recently I have been using Green Pastures FCLO. However, I just

heard some disturbing things about CLO today from someone who has spent months

researching this subject that I'd like to verify or refute. This is what I was

told:

> >

> > 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume

vitamin D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with

naturally occurring D.

> > 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

> > 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as

was demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

> >

> > Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO,

but they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the

EPA and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

> >

> > Now also you have Mercola and Dr. Eades heavily promoting krill oil instead

of fish oil or CLO, claiming that the phospholipid structure of KO makes it more

bioavailable. Although the amounts of DHA and EPA are lower in KO, the claim is

that you need less since it is more readily absorbed. Anecdotal reports from

people that have tried KO suggest this may be true, as many immediately see an

anti-inflammatory effect that they didn't get on CLO or FO before. Published

studies have suggested KO may have a superior anti-inflammatory effect, but two

of the studies cited most often were performed by Neptune (the primary

manufacturer of KO). I found one recent study that seemed to be independent

that seems positive (http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/19854375), but I don't

have access to the full text so I can't be certain.

> >

> > On the other hand you have people saying that KO is more likely to be

contaminated than either FO or CLO. Yet proponents of KO point to independent

tests which " verify " its purity.

> >

> > It has become very difficult to separate fact from fiction in this matter

and determine which product is safest and most effective. In general I think

dramatically reducing omega-6 consumption is the best way to decrease

inflammation, but for people who have a chronic, inflammatory condition (heart

disease, autoimmune disease, etc.) I do see the benefit of additional DHA and

EPA.

> >

> > I'd love to hear from anyone in the WAPF community that has explored this

issue in depth. Hopefully we can put our heads together and figure this out.

> >

> > Chris

> >

>

[Guest guest]

http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/oils-in-context.shtml

This one...

I prefer Enig's recommendation of polyunsaturated fat being 4% of one's

total caloric intake. 2 1/2% omega 6 to 1 1/2 % omega 3 intake.

Eskimos lived in a colder climate and so the percentage of saturated fat would

be much lower. They had a higher monounsaturated fat intake over there. They

likely had pufas as 4% of total calories. You should eat fats predominantly in

your own climate. We should have 50/50 saturated to monounsaturated fat in this

climate.

Most Americans have omega 6 as 30% of there intake. Way too much. This while

they have very little omega 3.

It's better to have whole foods than oils as oils are separated from water

soluble compounds. You only want oils in smaller or homeopathic amounts such as

fermented codliver oil. That's what Eskimos did with their fermented seal liver

oil. They fermented it and had it in very small amounts.

Danny Holt

From: coloredoctave <joanlulich (DOT) com>

Subject: Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 1:38 PM

 

I stopped using it after reading Ray Peat's " Oils in Context " .

Joan

>

> I've quit using the stuff. Eggs from really pastured (on green grass) hens

contain A and D (and omega-3's). I've got 6 hens laying 5 eggs a day.

>

> Raw milk from cows on pasture (again, with actual green grass to eat) also

have those fat-soluble vitamins. I've visited my dairy and see that the cows

have nice big grassy fields. They are beautiful and friendly and obviously have

never been mistreated.

>

> You can look at the Monterey Bay Aquarium's site on which products are

sustainably harvested from the sea. I don't know if they mention the cod liver

oil/krill oil thing, but they may answer you if you ask. There are few cod

fisheries left that really can bear fishing - the US has overfished our cod to

the point they have banned fishing for them, last I heard. Their Seafood Watch

program says of cod:

>

> " Atlantic Cod

> Atlantic cod from North America, Iceland and the Barents Sea has suffered from

decades of overfishing. This has resulted in massive population declines. Cod is

often caught using trawls, which cause severe, long-term impacts to seafloor

habitats. " Avoid " trawl-caught Atlantic cod and enjoy cod caught with other gear

as a " Good Alternative. "

>

>

> Summary

> Atlantic cod is a deep-water fish, living at depths of more than 1,300 feet on

both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Cod is one of several " groundfish " species,

referring to the fact that they live on the seafloor.

>

> For centuries, north Atlantic cod was one of the world's largest and most

reliable fisheries. However, overfishing threatens to bring this to an end.

Despite strict management in the U.S. and Canada in recent years, cod remains

overfished, with some populations so depleted that they're listed as endangered

or threatened. While cod populations in Iceland and the Northeast Arctic are in

better condition, overfishing still occurs in these regions.

>

> Fishermen often catch cod with bottom trawl gear, which involves dragging

large nets across the seafloor. Trawling damages marine habitats and produces

unwanted bycatch. However, a portion of the Icelandic and Northeast Arctic

fisheries don't use habitat-damaging trawling gear, and as a result, are ranked

as a " Good Alternative. " Trawl-caught cod from Iceland and the Northeast Arctic

is ranked as " Avoid " due to the combined issues of poor stock status and damage

to the seafloor. "

>

> So using a product from a type of fish that is being overharvested and living

in polluted water seems unnecessary to me.

>

> --- In , " chriskjezp " <chriskresser@ >

wrote:

> >

> > I've been researching both CLO and fish oil, trying to sift through the

abundant marketing, hype and contentious disagreement and get down to the facts.

Specifically, I'm interested in finding a product that is:

> >

> > 1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

> > 2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

> > 3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

> > 4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

> > 5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

> > 6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

> >

> > Up until recently I have been using Green Pastures FCLO. However, I just

heard some disturbing things about CLO today from someone who has spent months

researching this subject that I'd like to verify or refute. This is what I was

told:

> >

> > 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume

vitamin D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with

naturally occurring D.

> > 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

> > 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as

was demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

> >

> > Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO,

but they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the

EPA and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

> >

> > Now also you have Mercola and Dr. Eades heavily promoting krill oil instead

of fish oil or CLO, claiming that the phospholipid structure of KO makes it more

bioavailable. Although the amounts of DHA and EPA are lower in KO, the claim is

that you need less since it is more readily absorbed. Anecdotal reports from

people that have tried KO suggest this may be true, as many immediately see an

anti-inflammatory effect that they didn't get on CLO or FO before. Published

studies have suggested KO may have a superior anti-inflammatory effect, but two

of the studies cited most often were performed by Neptune (the primary

manufacturer of KO). I found one recent study that seemed to be independent

that seems positive (http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/19854375) , but I

don't have access to the full text so I can't be certain.

> >

> > On the other hand you have people saying that KO is more likely to be

contaminated than either FO or CLO. Yet proponents of KO point to independent

tests which " verify " its purity.

> >

> > It has become very difficult to separate fact from fiction in this matter

and determine which product is safest and most effective. In general I think

dramatically reducing omega-6 consumption is the best way to decrease

inflammation, but for people who have a chronic, inflammatory condition (heart

disease, autoimmune disease, etc.) I do see the benefit of additional DHA and

EPA.

> >

> > I'd love to hear from anyone in the WAPF community that has explored this

issue in depth. Hopefully we can put our heads together and figure this out.

> >

> > Chris

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I disagree that a 1-1.5 gram dose of DHA is pharmacological. 1 serving/1

oz, of some kinds of salmon roe (such as:

http://www.vitalchoice.com/product/wild-salmon/salmon-caviar-ikura-6-oz)has

1077mg DHA.

Cheap? No. However, it is the whole food way to get what you're looking

for.

Supplement wise, I always preferred sardine oil for DHA. Jarrow has a DHA

blend (called MAX DHA) that comes from both sardine and anchovy and has

250mg per softgel.

-Lana

" The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity. " - Horton

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 8:49 AM, chriskjezp <chriskresser@...> wrote:

> However, with patients struggling with chronic inflammatory conditions

> (i.e. Crohn's, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.) there is a lot of research

> suggesting a higher dose of DHA (1-1.5 grams) is therapeutic. At this level

> I realize that DHA is being used more like a pharmacological treatment than

> a supplement or food, but when compared to the drugs people with Crohn's and

> RA usually take, a pharmaceutical-grade DHA supplement is a better choice.

[Guest guest]

Isn't it true you need 100iu of vitamin D for every 1 unit of vitamin D storage

in the body? You want to bring levels in the body to 60-100 units and not over

that amount. With isolated vitamins loading won't be as effective. Research is

based on loading isolated forms so it is faulty. There's a full spectrum of

compounds and forms of vitamin D in food forms versus just one in isolated form.

You also need A and K2 to aid in digestion not to mention probiotics and

enzymes. Sunlight is another choice.

So a 1/2 tspn of fclo contains 760iu of vitamin D. You would want to bring

yourself up to 100 units. That would mean you would want 10,000iu of vitamin D.

That would be contained in 13 1/2 tspns of fclo. Take that amount and then

continue with just one 1/2tspn a day. Have it with butter oil to ensure

absorption. That would be 13 1/2 tsps of butter oil and then a 1/2 tspn a day.

I have not tasted quantum's cod liver oil but from what I've heard it's the

second best cod liver oil on the market. It's not heated no. However, it's not

fermented either.

You might have to recommend the capsule instead if you can't do the straight

oil. Fermented has a distasteful flavor, wouldn't think unfermented would have a

bad taste, it would probably be more on the neutral side.

Danny Holt

From: chriskjezp <chriskresser@...>

Subject: Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 1:08 PM

 

--- In , Holt <danthemanholt@ ...>

wrote:

>

> The vital choice isn't that great of a value. Not really that much DHA for the

price. For sources of vitamin a, d, and k2 I'd go elsewhere. You'd mine as well

just buy the farmed salmon instead. Neither supplement had a significant source

of DHA. I like animal derived D3/D2/metabolites combination from wild salmon,

codliver oil, raw milk, etc. I don't trust lanolin as a source. Not a great

value money wise either as it doesn't have much vitamin A or any K2 in it.

It's very difficult to get >4,000 IU comfortably from animal derived sources.

For patients that are very low in D or need more, I recommend a combination of a

whole-food source (CLO) plus an isolated source (emulsified D oil, D3 capsules,

etc.). It is in this second category (isolated source) that I was considering

the Vital Choice D. Actually, I use a D3 liquid with these patients but it's

only available to health care practitioners. I'm looking for a good source of

high-dose D3 that I can recommend to people that aren't my patients that can buy

it themselves.

>

> This would be a better value than those two supplements:

>

> http://www.radiantl ifecatalog. com/product/ COD-LIVER- OIL/superfoods-

supplements

Is that product heated? Have you tasted the oil?

>

> Xtend Life sounded good. 6 capsules would provide 1.5g of DHA. Though it comes

out to $50 a month if you do that. I personally would go with Jordan Rubin's

codliver oil myself as it would be $20 cheaper and isn't heated at all. Then

again why not just have farmed salmon.

>

I would definitely have to see reliable documentation before I recommended

Jordan Rubin's product, for the reasons I explained in my previous post.

Curious to know if anyone has tasted it. Most of my patients won't take

straight oil.