Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

[Guest guest]

> I disagree that a 1-1.5 gram dose of DHA is pharmacological. 1 serving/1

> oz, of some kinds of salmon roe (such as:

> http://www.vitalchoice.com/product/wild-salmon/salmon-caviar-ikura-6-oz)has

> 1077mg DHA.

>

> Cheap? No. However, it is the whole food way to get what you're looking

> for.

>

> Supplement wise, I always preferred sardine oil for DHA. Jarrow has a DHA

> blend (called MAX DHA) that comes from both sardine and anchovy and has

> 250mg per softgel.

>

> -Lana

Ah, the salmon roe. Afraid it's a bit out of my price range at $28/gram. But

yes, that would be the way to do it if money were no object!

I like the Jarrow Max DHA. Anchovies and sardines are pretty low in mercury and

they aren't high on the food chain so theoretically they're less likely to

concentrate toxins. I'll have to compare the cost of the Jarrow and Pure

products to see what makes sense. It's also quite cost effective at $0.49/gram.

The Xtend-Life product is slightly more expensive ($1.01/gram) but has more EPA

(120 mg vs. 36 mg) and also has DPA (50 mg) vs. zero). We don't know much about

DPA, but it's another long-chain (22 carbon) n-3 fatty acid, so it very well may

have beneficial effects similar to DHA.

Thanks for the tip on the Jarrow product. That probably is the best choice.

[Guest guest]

http://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Max-DHA-180-sgels/dp/B001B9OUGY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & \

s=hpc & qid=1271726713 & sr=1-1

This is cheap at just $15 per bottle at 180 capsules. 6 a day gives you 1.5g of

DHA. By far the best value.

Danny Holt

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I like the Jarrow Max DHA. Anchovies and sardines are pretty low in mercury and

they aren't high on the food chain so theoretically they're less likely to

concentrate toxins. I'll have to compare the cost of the Jarrow and Pure

products to see what makes sense. It's also quite cost effective at $0.49/gram.

The Xtend-Life product is slightly more expensive ($1.01/gram) but has more EPA

(120 mg vs. 36 mg) and also has DPA (50 mg) vs. zero). We don't know much about

DPA, but it's another long-chain (22 carbon) n-3 fatty acid, so it very well may

have beneficial effects similar to DHA.

Thanks for the tip on the Jarrow product. That probably is the best choice.

[Guest guest]

Levels of things seem to be going down drastically. The EPA DHA, which were

advertised as a big deal in the past isn't even lested now.

Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

>

>Someone on another forum referred me to this:

>

>http://www.greenpasture.org/retail/?t=products & a=test-data

>

>This is exactly what I was looking for. The only thing missing is data about

dioxins, metals and peroxides (i.e. TOTOX), and an actual COA from the lab that

did the testing.

>

>I understand that FCLO is a whole food and the nutrient levels will vary. All

I wanted was an average or range, and I see that here.

>

>I wish Dave or someone else would have referred me to this sooner!

>

>Chris

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I thought D3 was toxic. They used to put it in milk didn't they until they found

out about the toxic effects and then quietly switched to D2. But now it's back

to D3 in the milk I heard on a radio show. I can't verify any of this but I hope

someone out there knows about it.

Re: Cod liver oil, fish oil, krill oil - what's the truth?

>

>

>

>

>>

>> The vital choice isn't that great of a value. Not really that much DHA for

the price. For sources of vitamin a, d, and k2 I'd go elsewhere. You'd mine as

well just buy the farmed salmon instead. Neither supplement had a significant

source of DHA. I like animal derived D3/D2/metabolites combination from wild

salmon, codliver oil, raw milk, etc. I don't trust lanolin as a source. Not a

great value money wise either as it doesn't have much vitamin A or any K2 in it.

>

>It's very difficult to get >4,000 IU comfortably from animal derived sources.

For patients that are very low in D or need more, I recommend a combination of a

whole-food source (CLO) plus an isolated source (emulsified D oil, D3 capsules,

etc.). It is in this second category (isolated source) that I was considering

the Vital Choice D. Actually, I use a D3 liquid with these patients but it's

only available to health care practitioners. I'm looking for a good source of

high-dose D3 that I can recommend to people that aren't my patients that can buy

it themselves.

>

>>

>> This would be a better value than those two supplements:

>>

>>

http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/product/COD-LIVER-OIL/superfoods-supplements

>

>Is that product heated? Have you tasted the oil?

>

>>

>> Xtend Life sounded good. 6 capsules would provide 1.5g of DHA. Though it

comes out to $50 a month if you do that. I personally would go with Jordan

Rubin's codliver oil myself as it would be $20 cheaper and isn't heated at all.

Then again why not just have farmed salmon.

>>

>

>I would definitely have to see reliable documentation before I recommended

Jordan Rubin's product, for the reasons I explained in my previous post.

Curious to know if anyone has tasted it. Most of my patients won't take

straight oil.

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Garden of Life is Jordan Rubin's company. Jordan Rubin has been caught

lying

> repeatedly. His degrees are from phony, now defunct internet

universities. He

> makes claims that he's had researched published in peer-reviewed journals,

which

> isn't true.

>

> Because of this, I don't trust any of his products and don't recommend

them.

If he's truly been lying, then that's definitely a bad thing. As far as

credentials go - there are all sorts of online schools that are not

accredited by mainstream standards. Some of them are good, others aren't.

But there are some *people* with no credentials at all who are more

knowledgeable than some credentialed folks. Medical doctors are one of the

leading causes of death in America and they are all credentialed! So I

wouldn't consider someone with a degree from an Internet university as

necessarily unable to produce a quality line of supplements.

I have taken GOL's PD Ultra and found it to be one of the few probiotics

that really works well for me. This is one important criteria I use when

evaluating supplements.

I also would like to mention that I talked to Jordan Rubin briefly when he

had a booth at the first WAPF conference I attended, and I said it then and

will repeat that he's probably the healthiest-looking human being I have

ever seen. He really radiated health. That to me makes a positive statement

about his knowledge of supplements and health as well.

> http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art35127.asp

This critique is seriously flawed. For instance she writes:

" Rubin's Ph.D. " school, " The Academy of Natural Therapies (ANT - another

underground critter), was even shut down by the Office of Consumer

Protection in a major fraud lawsuit against its founder Byrnes. By

the way, Byrnes was a big promoter of highly saturated (97%) coconut oil -

another of Rubin's product ingredients. Research shows consumption of

saturated fats like coconut oil greatly contributes to both stroke and heart

disease. Interestingly enough, Byrnes died last year of a stroke - at

age 40 "

Egads! Saturated fat - so glad this critic set us straight on how dangerous

it is.

And it's not uncommon for the powers that be to come after natural

practitioners including Nicolas and to name a few

of the more prominent ones. So, I'm not really feeling any strong connection

between Rubin's degree and the quality of his supplements.

Again, lying is one thing and if he did do that, I think it's valid to

criticize it. But I don't agree with the rest of your argument against GOL

products.

FWIW.

Suze

[Guest guest]

> > I think it's important to remember that most of the people Dr. Price

studied, did

> not consume cod liver oil.

I think 2 of the 14 groups he studied did - the Gaelics and South Sea

Islanders, although the latter consumed shark liver oil rather than cod.

> I agree completely. The problem, as you point out below, is that

whole-food,

> uncontaminated sources of D are hard to come by now.

I think the WAPF's recent lab analysis of various grassfed fats has proven

this wrong. I think most or all of us were thinking this, then the WAPF

tested grassfed lard, butter, and egg yolks as well as fish eggs. They found

that the grassfed lard sample they tested contained 1100 IUs vitamin D per

tablespoon! And even more amazing, the fish eggs contained 17,000 IUs

vitamin D per tablespoon. The egg yolks and butter contained significantly

more vitamins A and D than conventional but not nearly as high as lard and

fish eggs.

Here is Sally's updated Traditional Diets lecture that includes this info:

http://vimeo.com/10489302

This lecture was given last month in the UK so is the most recent, updated

version of this lecture.

Suze

[Guest guest]

> I thought D3 was toxic. They used to put it in milk didn't they until they

found out

> about the toxic effects and then quietly switched to D2. But now it's back

to D3 in

> the milk I heard on a radio show. I can't verify any of this but I hope

someone out

> there knows about it.

No, that was D2.

However, FCLO seems to contain mostly D2 and so I would guess that the

synthetic D2 added to fortified foods may be different than the naturally

occurring D2 in FCLO, which is a traditional food eaten by healthy peoples.

Suze

[Guest guest]

>

> Ah, the salmon roe. Afraid it's a bit out of my price range at $28/gram.

> But yes, that would be the way to do it if money were no object!

>

Yeah, same here I've been craving the stuff like no ones' business!

When I do splurge I try to get it at a sushi restaurant but I have not found

a single one that can keep it properly fresh since I moved here. Bleh!

> I like the Jarrow Max DHA. Anchovies and sardines are pretty low in

> mercury and they aren't high on the food chain so theoretically they're less

> likely to concentrate toxins. I'll have to compare the cost of the Jarrow

> and Pure products to see what makes sense. It's also quite cost effective

> at $0.49/gram.

>

Yes, very true about sardines and anchovies. I never, ever have had a

problem with sardines or the max DHA, even at the height of my mercury

poisoning.

> Thanks for the tip on the Jarrow product. That probably is the best

> choice.

>

I tried several other products (including several brands of cod liver oil,

which admittedly never sat well with me) and landed with Jarrow. I really

like their max DHA and given my recent salmon roe cravings and lack of funds

I may well start taking it again myself. I get my D from the sun (I moved

to avoid Vitamin D winter), when I need supplemental A I get it in gelcaps

that are derived from cod liver oil (they contain just the A, nothing else),

and when I need DHA I get it from Jarrow. I found I really prefer splitting

it all up like that.

Anyway, just as a warning, Jarrow uses carob to " dye " their gelcaps black -

something about keeping light away from the DHA. Its a bit odd seeing them

the first few times you take em but you get used to em.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

I don't think anyone at WAPF is telling you to " just trust us on this " . If they

are, then shame on them.

I agree with all your points about full disclosure and the right of consumers to

know what they are buying. If the GP web site doesn't have what you want,

request more. If you don't get it, tell Dave your concerns and that you won't

buy if he doesn't share the information you want. If he doesn't give you what

you want (assuming he has it), go buy something else. This is how markets work.

The problem though is that GP is the only producer left of old-school FCLO so

it's not like there are other sources you can go to. So in this situation, as a

consumer, you are at a distinct disadvantage. This is another way that markets

work.

Dave sources only wild caught livers, not farmed. If the wild caught livers are

high in contaminants and the only way to remove them is the high heat,

industrial processing that is now the norm in the fish oil industry, then we

should abandon CLO altogether since the natural form would thus be contaminated

and the de-contaminated form would be ruined from over-processing.

At some point you are just going to have to trust what a manufacturer says. You

can't verify everything and every detail. I've tried this on numerous occasions

with various manufacturers and it's a truly futile effort.

For example, let's say you get all the documentation you want from Dave. What

does it certify? A single batch. What about the next batch, and the next? Are

you going to demand independent certification for each batch? This is the only

way to be sure Dave's liver supplier isn't suddenly starting to cheat.

While I applaud your efforts at due diligence, you have to realize that at some

point you can easily end up with a false sense of security.

Trust is a chain. Dave trusts his liver suppliers (I assume because he buys from

them). I trust Dave (because he's never been discredited). My kids trust me

(which is why they take the FCLO).

Cheers,

> >

> >

> >

> > Perhaps you would find it helpful to search the green pasture website for

the information you want. Try using google and do the following searches:

> >

> > site:greenpasture.org PCB

> > site:greenpasture.org EPA

> > site:greenpasture.org DHA

> >

> > You will see that the information I think you want is on the site.

> >

> > Doesn't this page have what you want?:

> >

> > http://www.greenpasture.org/retail/?t=products & a=test-data

> >

> > It lists EPA/DHA and PCB content. If you want a certificate from the lab

that GP uses, I think your basically accusing Dave of lying on this page? If you

are that paranoid, I would suggest taking the FCLO to a lab of your choice and

getting it tested yourself.

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> >

>

> ,

>

> There's a difference between accusing someone of lying and wanting to see

documented, third-party proof of claims being made - especially in an industry

that is rife with false claims.

>

> I don't know Dave personally or professionally. Why should I trust what he

says on faith? You may call it paranoia, I call it a a concern for and sense of

responsibility to my patients and my family.

>

> I truly don't understand the attitude I see here about this. The WAPF is

constantly advising its members not to trust the claims of researchers and

medical authorities without verifying them (using either traditional wisdom or

modern science). Yet am I expected to accept something a WAPF chapter leader or

product manufacturer associated with WAPF says simply because they say it?

>

> I apologize about the cult reference. That was out of line. I'm just

frustrated, and frankly baffled, by the resistance I'm encountering in trying to

get information which I think should be freely available.

>

> No one has yet given me a valid reason why it shouldn't be.

>

> I did find the chart here

(http://www.greenpasture.org/retail/?t=products & a=test-data) which has most of

the information I need. However, I'd still like to see info on dioxins, metals

and peroxide values, as well as an independent COA.

>

> I think it's quite disingenuous to suggest that I, as a customer, should pay

to have the product tested at a lab. Is that not the responsibility of a

manufacturer?

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

High-vitamin butter oil is a source of Vit K-2. It hasn't been in the news

lately like cod liver oil. The situation for both oils is similar. For some it

may be simpler to buy butter oil over the internet than locate their raw dairy.

> > >

> > > I've been researching both CLO and fish oil, trying to sift through the

abundant marketing, hype and contentious disagreement and get down to the facts.

Specifically, I'm interested in finding a product that is:

> > >

> > > 1) Free of heavy metals, dioxins and PCBs

> > > 2) Has naturally occurring vitamin A & D (CLO) or vitamin D (fish oil)

> > > 3) Is harvested in a sustainable manner

> > > 4) Is not rancid and damaged by oxidation

> > > 5) Has sufficient DHA and EPA to provide anti-inflammatory benefit

> > > 6) Is in a natural (not synthetic) form

> > >

> > > Up until recently I have been using Green Pastures FCLO. However, I just

heard some disturbing things about CLO today from someone who has spent months

researching this subject that I'd like to verify or refute. This is what I was

told:

> > >

> > > 1) There is no cod left at latitudes where they can produce or consume

vitamin D. The implication is that there is no such thing as a CLO with

naturally occurring D.

> > > 2) Green Pastures has not been forthcoming in providing independent

verification that their FCLO product is free of metals, dioxins and PCBs.

> > > 3) Many of these independent verifications aren't trustworthy anyways, as

was demonstrated with Carlson's tests that failed to identify toxins.

> > >

> > > Also, I have asked Green Pastures what the EPA and DHA levels are in FCLO,

but they have been unable (or unwilling) to tell me. This concerns me since the

EPA and especially DHA have been shown to provide the majority of the

anti-inflammatory benefit.

> > >

> > > Now also you have Mercola and Dr. Eades heavily promoting krill oil

instead of fish oil or CLO, claiming that the phospholipid structure of KO makes

it more bioavailable. Although the amounts of DHA and EPA are lower in KO, the

claim is that you need less since it is more readily absorbed. Anecdotal

reports from people that have tried KO suggest this may be true, as many

immediately see an anti-inflammatory effect that they didn't get on CLO or FO

before. Published studies have suggested KO may have a superior

anti-inflammatory effect, but two of the studies cited most often were performed

by Neptune (the primary manufacturer of KO). I found one recent study that

seemed to be independent that seems positive

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19854375), but I don't have access to the

full text so I can't be certain.

> > >

> > > On the other hand you have people saying that KO is more likely to be

contaminated than either FO or CLO. Yet proponents of KO point to independent

tests which " verify " its purity.

> > >

> > > It has become very difficult to separate fact from fiction in this matter

and determine which product is safest and most effective. In general I think

dramatically reducing omega-6 consumption is the best way to decrease

inflammation, but for people who have a chronic, inflammatory condition (heart

disease, autoimmune disease, etc.) I do see the benefit of additional DHA and

EPA.

> > >

> > > I'd love to hear from anyone in the WAPF community that has explored this

issue in depth. Hopefully we can put our heads together and figure this out.

> > >

> > > Chris

> > >

> >

>