Guest guest Posted April 9, 2002 Report Share Posted April 9, 2002 Jane, I understand what you are saying, and the ethical issues were discussed with the student. I was led to believe that the problem was with the skill itself. The student stated he heard a " thump " at 200 (systolic) but thought it was incorrect because he had the cuff pumped up over 240! Myself as a preceptor on the ambulance have written good evaluations and bad evaluations, but the bad ones never seem to make it back to the instructors for some reason. Christy Re: Students > Hmmmmm. Speaking from an educator's standpoint, it is > very difficult sometimes to totally ensure that a > student is " proficient " when they complete Basic > school. They may have been able to show enough > proficiency to pass the vital signs skills station in > class, and then they had positive evaluations on all > clinical rotations. So how then would the > instructor/coordinator know in some situations that the > student had trouble at times? Everyone has trouble > hearing a blood pressure at one time or another. The > problem here may be more oriented around the student's > sense of right and wrong. In other words, his problem > has more to do with not telling you that he couldn't > hear and making a BP up instead of the fact that maybe > he couldn't hear on that particular patient. Ethics > seems to be more the issue here. > > I have had many green EMT's and other levels who have > had difficulty for the first several months in the field > hearing blood pressures in the unit. It is an acquired > skill to become proficient enough to hear a BP in a > running ambulance - heck, I have been hear for over 16 > years and still have to palpate in the unit on some > patients. The issue here seems to be more related to > either proper teaching of ethics in patient care or in > the student's own internal grasp of what is ethical and > what is not. Being embarrassed and admitting you can't > do something is ethical. Being embarrassed and making > it up is NOT. > > So maybe we need to evaluate a situation like this more > from the standpoint of " how are we teaching ethics in > schools " or " how do we judge whether a person is > trustworhty when we hire them " before we jump off the > ledge that the educator's are not ensuring proficiency > before releasing folks to the field. > > Jane Hill > > Why is it some EMS program are allowing students to continue on from Basic when > > they are not proficient in basic skills? > > For example: > > Had a Paramedic student on a rotation the other day. This student also works for > > a well know, nation wide, EMS service as a certified basic. On a call, the > > student was asked to obtain a B/P. The B/P he gave seemed appropriate for the > > pt. and the pts situation. But on re-evaluation the difference was OVER > > 100 mmHg! > > On completion of the call the student was asked what he thought about the > > difference in the B/P. His response was " I guess I should have told you I > > couldn't get it " I asked if he just " made up those numbers " The conversation > > that followed clearly indicated he had difficulties obtaining a B/P > > How can you be a good Paramedic, if your not a good basic? > > Christy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Laurie, the guidelines for Medicare students are line of site. In other words, you cannot treat another patient at the same time. You have to be essentially in the room, approve the plan of care etc. I just had a 6 month intern and I just avoided medicare patients with the student so he could see patients independently. If you go to the APTA web site, you can probably download the guidelines. Also it is going to me mandatory to be CI course certified. I highly recommend the 2 day course before you take on the student. You get all the do's and don'ts with the student and great guidelines for medicare. please let me know if you have more questions. Lore Vanden Heuvel, PT, DPT student Students  Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Laurie, the guidelines for Medicare students are line of site. In other words, you cannot treat another patient at the same time. You have to be essentially in the room, approve the plan of care etc. I just had a 6 month intern and I just avoided medicare patients with the student so he could see patients independently. If you go to the APTA web site, you can probably download the guidelines. Also it is going to me mandatory to be CI course certified. I highly recommend the 2 day course before you take on the student. You get all the do's and don'ts with the student and great guidelines for medicare. please let me know if you have more questions. Lore Vanden Heuvel, PT, DPT student Students  Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Laurie, the guidelines for Medicare students are line of site. In other words, you cannot treat another patient at the same time. You have to be essentially in the room, approve the plan of care etc. I just had a 6 month intern and I just avoided medicare patients with the student so he could see patients independently. If you go to the APTA web site, you can probably download the guidelines. Also it is going to me mandatory to be CI course certified. I highly recommend the 2 day course before you take on the student. You get all the do's and don'ts with the student and great guidelines for medicare. please let me know if you have more questions. Lore Vanden Heuvel, PT, DPT student Students  Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 You can obtain the regulations from the Medicare IOM website, http://www.cms.hhs.gov/manuals/Downloads/bp102c15.pdf section 230B. I have copied it for you. I would recommend you bookmarking this link as it contains everything to do with Medicare Part B, sections 220 and 230. EXAMPLES: Therapists may bill and be paid for the provision of services in the following scenarios: The qualified practitioner is present and in the room for the entire session. The student participates in the delivery of services when the qualified practitioner is directing the service, making the skilled judgment, and is responsible for the assessment and treatment. The qualified practitioner is present in the room guiding the student in service delivery when the therapy student and the therapy assistant student are participating in the provision of services, and the practitioner is not engaged in treating another patient or doing other tasks at the same time. The qualified practitioner is responsible for the services and as such, signs all documentation. (A student may, of course, also sign but it is not necessary since the Part B payment is for the clinician’s service, not for the student’s services). ine M. o, PT, MCSP Owner Encompass Consulting & Education, LLC 8114 NW 100th Terrace Tamarac FL 33321-1259 Encompass Consulting & Education is a company specializing in consulting and education services to providers of Medicare rehabilitation therapy and related services. Visit our website, www.encompassmedicare.com for more information on our services and while there, sign up for our free e-zine. From: PTManager [mailto:PTManager ] On Behalf Of lcvh@... Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:28 PM To: PTManager Subject: Re: Students Laurie, the guidelines for Medicare students are line of site. In other words, you cannot treat another patient at the same time. You have to be essentially in the room, approve the plan of care etc. I just had a 6 month intern and I just avoided medicare patients with the student so he could see patients independently. If you go to the APTA web site, you can probably download the guidelines. Also it is going to me mandatory to be CI course certified. I highly recommend the 2 day course before you take on the student. You get all the do's and don'ts with the student and great guidelines for medicare. please let me know if you have more questions. Lore Vanden Heuvel, PT, DPT student Students Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 You can obtain the regulations from the Medicare IOM website, http://www.cms.hhs.gov/manuals/Downloads/bp102c15.pdf section 230B. I have copied it for you. I would recommend you bookmarking this link as it contains everything to do with Medicare Part B, sections 220 and 230. EXAMPLES: Therapists may bill and be paid for the provision of services in the following scenarios: The qualified practitioner is present and in the room for the entire session. The student participates in the delivery of services when the qualified practitioner is directing the service, making the skilled judgment, and is responsible for the assessment and treatment. The qualified practitioner is present in the room guiding the student in service delivery when the therapy student and the therapy assistant student are participating in the provision of services, and the practitioner is not engaged in treating another patient or doing other tasks at the same time. The qualified practitioner is responsible for the services and as such, signs all documentation. (A student may, of course, also sign but it is not necessary since the Part B payment is for the clinician’s service, not for the student’s services). ine M. o, PT, MCSP Owner Encompass Consulting & Education, LLC 8114 NW 100th Terrace Tamarac FL 33321-1259 Encompass Consulting & Education is a company specializing in consulting and education services to providers of Medicare rehabilitation therapy and related services. Visit our website, www.encompassmedicare.com for more information on our services and while there, sign up for our free e-zine. From: PTManager [mailto:PTManager ] On Behalf Of lcvh@... Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:28 PM To: PTManager Subject: Re: Students Laurie, the guidelines for Medicare students are line of site. In other words, you cannot treat another patient at the same time. You have to be essentially in the room, approve the plan of care etc. I just had a 6 month intern and I just avoided medicare patients with the student so he could see patients independently. If you go to the APTA web site, you can probably download the guidelines. Also it is going to me mandatory to be CI course certified. I highly recommend the 2 day course before you take on the student. You get all the do's and don'ts with the student and great guidelines for medicare. please let me know if you have more questions. Lore Vanden Heuvel, PT, DPT student Students Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 You can obtain the regulations from the Medicare IOM website, http://www.cms.hhs.gov/manuals/Downloads/bp102c15.pdf section 230B. I have copied it for you. I would recommend you bookmarking this link as it contains everything to do with Medicare Part B, sections 220 and 230. EXAMPLES: Therapists may bill and be paid for the provision of services in the following scenarios: The qualified practitioner is present and in the room for the entire session. The student participates in the delivery of services when the qualified practitioner is directing the service, making the skilled judgment, and is responsible for the assessment and treatment. The qualified practitioner is present in the room guiding the student in service delivery when the therapy student and the therapy assistant student are participating in the provision of services, and the practitioner is not engaged in treating another patient or doing other tasks at the same time. The qualified practitioner is responsible for the services and as such, signs all documentation. (A student may, of course, also sign but it is not necessary since the Part B payment is for the clinician’s service, not for the student’s services). ine M. o, PT, MCSP Owner Encompass Consulting & Education, LLC 8114 NW 100th Terrace Tamarac FL 33321-1259 Encompass Consulting & Education is a company specializing in consulting and education services to providers of Medicare rehabilitation therapy and related services. Visit our website, www.encompassmedicare.com for more information on our services and while there, sign up for our free e-zine. From: PTManager [mailto:PTManager ] On Behalf Of lcvh@... Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:28 PM To: PTManager Subject: Re: Students Laurie, the guidelines for Medicare students are line of site. In other words, you cannot treat another patient at the same time. You have to be essentially in the room, approve the plan of care etc. I just had a 6 month intern and I just avoided medicare patients with the student so he could see patients independently. If you go to the APTA web site, you can probably download the guidelines. Also it is going to me mandatory to be CI course certified. I highly recommend the 2 day course before you take on the student. You get all the do's and don'ts with the student and great guidelines for medicare. please let me know if you have more questions. Lore Vanden Heuvel, PT, DPT student Students Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 Would this pertain to ALL payer sources? Students Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 Would this pertain to ALL payer sources? Students Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 Would this pertain to ALL payer sources? Students Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 No, this is just Medicare. YOu have to remember, MEdicare is just an insurance plan therefore it's guidelines are their requirements for the contractors to pay your claim, nothing more. So using a student requires you being there, with the student, directing their care as if it was yourself providing the treatment. ine M. o, PT Encompass Consulting & Educations, LLC www.encompassmedicare.com > -- Re: Students > Sent: 03 Aug '09 21:03 > > Would this pertain to ALL payer sources? > Students > > Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients > (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the > therapist treats someone else? > I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. > Thanks~ > Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 No, this is just Medicare. YOu have to remember, MEdicare is just an insurance plan therefore it's guidelines are their requirements for the contractors to pay your claim, nothing more. So using a student requires you being there, with the student, directing their care as if it was yourself providing the treatment. ine M. o, PT Encompass Consulting & Educations, LLC www.encompassmedicare.com > -- Re: Students > Sent: 03 Aug '09 21:03 > > Would this pertain to ALL payer sources? > Students > > Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients > (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the > therapist treats someone else? > I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. > Thanks~ > Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 No, this is just Medicare. YOu have to remember, MEdicare is just an insurance plan therefore it's guidelines are their requirements for the contractors to pay your claim, nothing more. So using a student requires you being there, with the student, directing their care as if it was yourself providing the treatment. ine M. o, PT Encompass Consulting & Educations, LLC www.encompassmedicare.com > -- Re: Students > Sent: 03 Aug '09 21:03 > > Would this pertain to ALL payer sources? > Students > > Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients > (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the > therapist treats someone else? > I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. > Thanks~ > Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I believe you mean " line of sight " . Much more descriptive of what is required. Lucy Buckley PT Students Does anyone have references on student supervision? Can patients (Medicare or other payer sources) be treated by a student while the therapist treats someone else? I'm looking for both OT and PT students in Wisconsin. Thanks~ Laurie Heer, DPT, MS,PT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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