Re: Oxalates

September 21, 2010

I was thinking the same thing, but thinking it was klebsiella. I know

klebsiella has been linked to kidney stones and it often turns up in our

cultures. My son's oxylate issue comes and goes. We have been treating lyme

with antibiotics for over 2 years and I recall with 2 different antibiotic

changes/additions my son dumped oxylates so excessively it was like seeing a

pile of course salt crystals in his diaper. He is no longer in diapers, but I

saw him dumping oxylates again this summer from pee accidents and grabbing his

penis.

Caryn

> >

> > What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and oxaditative stress

> >

> > Sent from my iPod

> >

>

September 21, 2010

I was thinking the same thing, but thinking it was klebsiella. I know

klebsiella has been linked to kidney stones and it often turns up in our

cultures. My son's oxylate issue comes and goes. We have been treating lyme

with antibiotics for over 2 years and I recall with 2 different antibiotic

changes/additions my son dumped oxylates so excessively it was like seeing a

pile of course salt crystals in his diaper. He is no longer in diapers, but I

saw him dumping oxylates again this summer from pee accidents and grabbing his

penis.

Caryn

> >

> > What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and oxaditative stress

> >

> > Sent from my iPod

> >

>

September 21, 2010

Go to groups.yahoo.com and search for trying_low_oxalates:-) --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 4:41:43 AMSubject: Re: Re: Oxalates

How do I join,what you are calling a" list serve"? I know my son has

this polimorph gene and I would like to see your great imfo.as it

happens. Thanks,Tammy F. From K.S.

Rhonda,

Oxalates themselves cause an enormous amount of oxidative

stress and lipid peroxidation, depleting glutathione, and

shutting down the energy metabolism in cells where oxalate

gets into the mitochondrion. For more info on this, see

the studies I've put below on oxalate's effects on red

blood cells and the mitochondrion and the kidney.

I've recently gone to the primary hyperoxaluria conference

in NYC where they discussed the genetic condition where an

enzyme defect makes their liver churn out high levels of

excess oxalate and there, I found autism.

The field is RUN by kidney doctors who only start treating

these patients after they get in kidney failure, but they

have failed to recognize other things that happen in these

patients earlier. Included there would be horrible GI

problems and GI pain, bone pain, and according to one

doctor I talked to from Canada, a list of the same

conditions we see getting better on the low oxalate diet

outside autism, like fibromyalgia, interstitial cystitis,

and vulvodynia.

They had a mixer where the people at the patient

conference could mingle with the scientists who attended

the scientific conference, so in talking to the families

and to the only person who has done a clinical study on a

large group of these patients, I learned about

undocumented autism that seems it could be common in this

genetic disease. (There are only about 500 cases of

primary hyperoxaluria that have been identified in the

whole world. Because of their gene defect oxalate levels

in blood and urine and tissues soar.)

The first family I met had a son with primary oxaluria who

had OCD and Aspergers. The next family with a toddler had

an uncle with autism and the mother had hydrocephalus.

That was striking to me because one of the most dramatic

improvements on the diet has been a child with autism who

had failed to develop past infancy and had hydrocephalus

and was given a shunt, but his development arrested there.

He only began "infant" development at age five once he was

on the diet.

A fifteen or so year old boy sat by himself at my table

and never looked up as I got up, sat down, got up over and

over again, but he was immersed in a game toy he was

playing with during the whole hour and a half of the

party. That seemed "spectrumish" to me, although I didn't

talk to him since I never got eye contact.

Later, I had lunch with a scientist who is developing the

orphan drug probiotic oxalobacter formigenes. She has been

doing Phase II and III drug trials on this product which

is the only treatment study that has ever been done in

primary hyperoxaluria aimed at reducing oxalate. When I

told her all the families I had met that seemed to have

autism in the family, she said, "Oh yes. They are not

normal." (She's a microbiologist...so you wouldn't expect

her to be able to diagnose autism, but what she said told

me that the kidney doctors also had been ignoring this

issue, just like doctors and psychiatrists for so many

years ignored the GI issues in autism.)

Rhonda, our listserve has had people with other genetic

diseases comorbid with autism that have genetic reasons

for gut permeability and their autism symptoms have

improved on the diet just like the "regular" autism kids.

There may be polymorphisms for oxalate issues that

increase risks of not being able to "handle" oxalate. A

study in France found that most patients given a drug that

contains large amounts of oxalate developed neurotoxicity,

but the level of neurotoxicity appeared to be determined

by the presence or absence of a polymorphism in the AGT

gene, which is the B6 dependent gene that causes primary

hyperoxaluria. I hope we can do a genetic study like

theirs in the autism population.

Why was the autism and why have their GI issues and

metabolic issues been ignored in primary hyperoxaluria?

There was a complaint at the conference from a scientist

who had done mouse studies that the "field" was ignoring

the rest of the body and especially the blow that oxalate

makes on the general metabolism, and the lack of

treatments beyond liver transplants. I talked to him and

gave him the good news that the Autism Oxalate Project at

ARI HAS developed treatments that aide in the

detoxification of oxalate.

It is when detoxing oxalate that you see the worst

symptoms, both in autism and in primary hyperoxaluria

after they have a transplant.

The detox process occurs in the body in earnest ONLY AFTER

the sources of excess oxalate have been reduced...such as

diet, and correcting vitamin deficiencies that lead to our

cells making oxalate.

The biggest issue on the vitamin front is pyridoxine

(vitamin B6).

Bernie Rimland studied B6 and magnesium therapy in autism

for decades but he didn't know that these nutrients are

critical to keep people from making oxalate metabolically.

Enzymes that handle oxalate function in an organelle

called the peroxisome, but until that enzyme binds B6, it

cannot be imported into the peroxisome, so it cannot work

properly. A scientist at the conference reported there is

one mutation in primary hyperoxaluria where they found

giving 400-600 mgs of pyridoxine a day pretty much solved

the oxalate problem in that group! That's higher amount of

B6 than anyone has gone for studying its effects in

autism.

So Rhonda, you asked a simple question, but the answer

involves much more than Toni offered, though what she said

was good. What Toni mentioned will help in reducing how

much oxalate you absorb, but on our listserve I get into

the particulars of which supplements have been documented

as reducing the oxidative stress that comes from oxalate's

effects on cells. There was lots in the literature to help

us and it is incorporated into the recommendations I make

on the listserve.

Oxalate knocks out every important complex in the electron

transport chain, at the same time as compromising

glycolysis, gluconeogenesis, and the TCA cycle because of

other enzymes it knocks out. Mitochondrial scientists do

not know this literature as I learned while attending the

United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation meeting this

summer.

Oxalate knocks out the enzyme that uses pyruvate to make

citrate at the entrance into the Krebs cycle. People with

high oxalate tend to be low citrate, and correcting the

citrate will help reduce oxidative stress as the article

below states! This is why the preferred form of calcium

used is calcium citrate.

If you want to know more, join our listserve where we

discuss all this and have great helps for "newbies".

I do not recommend people reducing oxalate without getting

the benefit of the discussions on our listserve where you

get the latest science as it happens.

I cannot tell you how many people come to our listserve

saying they've been LOD, but they were not getting the

information they needed to get the results that they did

get once they joined. This has happened because DAN! has

not provided access for me to train ANY of the

nutritionists/dieticians in Defeat Autism Now! that are

trying to train others or advice patients on how to use

the diet. Unfortunately, the ones who are giving out

advice on LOD don't know what they don't know!

Hum Exp Toxicol. 2009 Apr;28(4):245-51.

Oxalate-mediated oxidant-antioxidant imbalance in

erythrocytes: role of N-acetylcysteine.

Bijarnia RK, Kaur T, Singla SK, Tandon C.

Department of Biotechnology and Bioinformatics, Jaypee

University of Information Technology, Waknaghat, India.

Abstract

The present in-vivo study was to observe the effect of

N-acetylcysteine (NAC) on oxalate-induced oxidative stress

on rat erythrocytes. A total of 15 Wistar rats were

divided into three groups. The control group received

normal saline by single intraperitoneal injection.

Hyperoxaluria was induced by single intraperitoneal (i.p.)

dose of sodium oxalate (70 mg/kg body weight in 0.5 mL

saline) to a second group. The third group was

administered single i.p. dose of NAC according to 200

mg/kg body weight dissolved in 0.5 mL saline, half an hour

after oxalate dose. NAC administration normalized

antioxidant enzyme activities (superoxide dismutase and

catalase) and reduced malondialdehyde content (indicator

of lipid peroxidation) in hyperoxaluric rat's red blood

cell (RBC) lysate. NAC administration also resulted in a

significant improvement of thiol content in RBC lysate via

increasing reduced glutathione content and maintaining its

redox status. Oxalate-caused alteration of

cholesterol/phospholipid ratio (determining membrane

fluidity) was also rebalanced by NAC administration.

Further, after NAC administration, electron microscopy

showed improved cell morphology presenting its

prophylactic properties. Above results indicate that NAC

treatment is associated with an increase in plasma

antioxidant capacity and a reduction in the susceptibility

of erythrocyte membranes to oxidation. Thus, the study

presents positive pharmacological implications of NAC

against oxalate-mediated impairment of erythrocytes.

PMID: 19734276

Eur J Pharmacol. 2008 Jan 28;579(1-3):330-6. Epub 2007 Oct

16.

Mitochondrial dysfunction in an animal model of

hyperoxaluria: a prophylactic approach with fucoidan.

Veena CK, phine A, Preetha SP, Rajesh NG, Varalakshmi

P.

Department of Medical Biochemistry, Dr. ALM. Post Graduate

Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, University of Madras,

Taramani Campus, Chennai - 600 113, India.

Abstract

Oxalate/calcium oxalate toxicity is mediated through

generation of reactive oxygen species in a process that

partly depends upon events that induce mitochondrial

damage. Mitochondrial dysfunction is an important event

favoring stone formation. The objective of the present

study was to investigate whether mitochondria is a target

for oxalate/calcium oxalate and the plausible role of

naturally occurring glycosaminoglycans from edible

seaweed, fucoidan in ameliorating mitochondrial damage.

Male albino rats of Wistar strain were divided into four

groups and treated as follows: Group I: vehicle treated

control, Group II: hyperoxaluria was induced with 0.75%

ethylene glycol in drinking water for 28 days, Group III:

fucoidan from F. vesiculosus (5 mg/kg b.wt, s.c) from the

8th day of the experimental period, Group IV: ethylene

glycol+fucoidan treated rats. The tricarboxylic acid (TCA)

cycle enzymes like succinate dehydrogenase, isocitrate

dehydrogenase, malate dehydrogenase and respiratory

complex enzyme activities were assessed to evaluate

mitochondrial function. Oxidative stress was assessed

based on the activities of antioxidant enzymes, level of

reactive oxygen species, lipid peroxidation and reduced

glutathione. Mitochondrial swelling was also analyzed.

Ultra structural changes in renal tissue were analyzed

with electron microscope. Hyperoxaluria induced a decrease

in the activities of TCA cycle enzymes and respiratory

complex enzymes. The oxidative stress was evident by the

decrease in antioxidant enzymes, glutathione and an

increase in reactive species and lipid peroxidation in

mitochondria. Mitochondrial damage was evident by

increased mitochondrial swelling. Administration of

fucoidan, decreased reactive oxygen species, lipid

peroxidation (P<0.05), mitochondrial swelling and

increased the activities of antioxidant enzymes and

glutathione levels (P<0.05) and normalized the

activities of mitochondrial TCA cycle and respiratory

complex enzymes (P<0.05). From the present study, it

can be concluded that mitochondrial damage is an essential

event in hyperoxaluria, and fucoidan was able to

effectively prevent it and thereby the renal damage in

hyperoxaluria.

PMID: 18001705

J Urol. 2005 Feb;173(2):640-6.

Citrate provides protection against oxalate and calcium

oxalate crystal induced oxidative damage to renal

epithelium.

Byer K, Khan SR.

Department of Pathology, Immunology and Laboratory

Medicine, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida

32610-0275, USA.

Abstract

PURPOSE: Oxalate and calcium oxalate (CaOx) crystals are

injurious to renal epithelial cells. The injury is caused

by the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS).

Citrate is a well-known inhibitor of CaOx crystallization

and as such it is one of the major therapeutic agents

prescribed. Since citrate increases cellular reduced

nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate and

glutathione (GSH), we hypothesized that exogenously

administered citrate should act as an antioxidant and

protect cells from oxalate induced injury.

MATERIALS AND METHODS: We exposed LLC-PK1 and MDCK cells

to 500 microM/ml oxalate or 150 mug/cm calcium oxalate

crystals for 30, 60 and 180 minutes with or without 3

mg/ml citrate in the medium. We determined cell viability

by lactate dehydrogenase release and trypan blue

exclusion, ROS involvement by changes in hydrogen peroxide

and GSH, and lipid peroxidation by quantifying

8-isoprostane.

RESULTS: The presence of citrate was associated with

significant decrease in lactate dehydrogenase release (p

<0.001) and staining with trypan blue (p <0.05). In

addition, there was a significant increase in GSH (p

<0.005) and a decrease in the production of hydrogen

peroxide (p <0.05) and 8-isoprostane (p <0.0005)

secretion into the culture medium when citrate was present

in the medium.

CONCLUSIONS: Citrate protects cells from oxalate and CaOx

crystal induced injury by preventing lipid peroxidation

through a decrease in ROS production. The results provide

additional data for the beneficial role of citrate therapy

for CaOx nephrolithiasis.

PMID: 15643280 [

>

> What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and

oxaditative stress

>

> Sent from my iPod

>

September 21, 2010

Go to groups.yahoo.com and search for trying_low_oxalates:-) --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 4:41:43 AMSubject: Re: Re: Oxalates

How do I join,what you are calling a" list serve"? I know my son has

this polimorph gene and I would like to see your great imfo.as it

happens. Thanks,Tammy F. From K.S.

Rhonda,

Oxalates themselves cause an enormous amount of oxidative

stress and lipid peroxidation, depleting glutathione, and

shutting down the energy metabolism in cells where oxalate

gets into the mitochondrion. For more info on this, see

the studies I've put below on oxalate's effects on red

blood cells and the mitochondrion and the kidney.

I've recently gone to the primary hyperoxaluria conference

in NYC where they discussed the genetic condition where an

enzyme defect makes their liver churn out high levels of

excess oxalate and there, I found autism.

The field is RUN by kidney doctors who only start treating

these patients after they get in kidney failure, but they

have failed to recognize other things that happen in these

patients earlier. Included there would be horrible GI

problems and GI pain, bone pain, and according to one

doctor I talked to from Canada, a list of the same

conditions we see getting better on the low oxalate diet

outside autism, like fibromyalgia, interstitial cystitis,

and vulvodynia.

They had a mixer where the people at the patient

conference could mingle with the scientists who attended

the scientific conference, so in talking to the families

and to the only person who has done a clinical study on a

large group of these patients, I learned about

undocumented autism that seems it could be common in this

genetic disease. (There are only about 500 cases of

primary hyperoxaluria that have been identified in the

whole world. Because of their gene defect oxalate levels

in blood and urine and tissues soar.)

The first family I met had a son with primary oxaluria who

had OCD and Aspergers. The next family with a toddler had

an uncle with autism and the mother had hydrocephalus.

That was striking to me because one of the most dramatic

improvements on the diet has been a child with autism who

had failed to develop past infancy and had hydrocephalus

and was given a shunt, but his development arrested there.

He only began "infant" development at age five once he was

on the diet.

A fifteen or so year old boy sat by himself at my table

and never looked up as I got up, sat down, got up over and

over again, but he was immersed in a game toy he was

playing with during the whole hour and a half of the

party. That seemed "spectrumish" to me, although I didn't

talk to him since I never got eye contact.

Later, I had lunch with a scientist who is developing the

orphan drug probiotic oxalobacter formigenes. She has been

doing Phase II and III drug trials on this product which

is the only treatment study that has ever been done in

primary hyperoxaluria aimed at reducing oxalate. When I

told her all the families I had met that seemed to have

autism in the family, she said, "Oh yes. They are not

normal." (She's a microbiologist...so you wouldn't expect

her to be able to diagnose autism, but what she said told

me that the kidney doctors also had been ignoring this

issue, just like doctors and psychiatrists for so many

years ignored the GI issues in autism.)

Rhonda, our listserve has had people with other genetic

diseases comorbid with autism that have genetic reasons

for gut permeability and their autism symptoms have

improved on the diet just like the "regular" autism kids.

There may be polymorphisms for oxalate issues that

increase risks of not being able to "handle" oxalate. A

study in France found that most patients given a drug that

contains large amounts of oxalate developed neurotoxicity,

but the level of neurotoxicity appeared to be determined

by the presence or absence of a polymorphism in the AGT

gene, which is the B6 dependent gene that causes primary

hyperoxaluria. I hope we can do a genetic study like

theirs in the autism population.

Why was the autism and why have their GI issues and

metabolic issues been ignored in primary hyperoxaluria?

There was a complaint at the conference from a scientist

who had done mouse studies that the "field" was ignoring

the rest of the body and especially the blow that oxalate

makes on the general metabolism, and the lack of

treatments beyond liver transplants. I talked to him and

gave him the good news that the Autism Oxalate Project at

ARI HAS developed treatments that aide in the

detoxification of oxalate.

It is when detoxing oxalate that you see the worst

symptoms, both in autism and in primary hyperoxaluria

after they have a transplant.

The detox process occurs in the body in earnest ONLY AFTER

the sources of excess oxalate have been reduced...such as

diet, and correcting vitamin deficiencies that lead to our

cells making oxalate.

The biggest issue on the vitamin front is pyridoxine

(vitamin B6).

Bernie Rimland studied B6 and magnesium therapy in autism

for decades but he didn't know that these nutrients are

critical to keep people from making oxalate metabolically.

Enzymes that handle oxalate function in an organelle

called the peroxisome, but until that enzyme binds B6, it

cannot be imported into the peroxisome, so it cannot work

properly. A scientist at the conference reported there is

one mutation in primary hyperoxaluria where they found

giving 400-600 mgs of pyridoxine a day pretty much solved

the oxalate problem in that group! That's higher amount of

B6 than anyone has gone for studying its effects in

autism.

So Rhonda, you asked a simple question, but the answer

involves much more than Toni offered, though what she said

was good. What Toni mentioned will help in reducing how

much oxalate you absorb, but on our listserve I get into

the particulars of which supplements have been documented

as reducing the oxidative stress that comes from oxalate's

effects on cells. There was lots in the literature to help

us and it is incorporated into the recommendations I make

on the listserve.

Oxalate knocks out every important complex in the electron

transport chain, at the same time as compromising

glycolysis, gluconeogenesis, and the TCA cycle because of

other enzymes it knocks out. Mitochondrial scientists do

not know this literature as I learned while attending the

United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation meeting this

summer.

Oxalate knocks out the enzyme that uses pyruvate to make

citrate at the entrance into the Krebs cycle. People with

high oxalate tend to be low citrate, and correcting the

citrate will help reduce oxidative stress as the article

below states! This is why the preferred form of calcium

used is calcium citrate.

If you want to know more, join our listserve where we

discuss all this and have great helps for "newbies".

I do not recommend people reducing oxalate without getting

the benefit of the discussions on our listserve where you

get the latest science as it happens.

I cannot tell you how many people come to our listserve

saying they've been LOD, but they were not getting the

information they needed to get the results that they did

get once they joined. This has happened because DAN! has

not provided access for me to train ANY of the

nutritionists/dieticians in Defeat Autism Now! that are

trying to train others or advice patients on how to use

the diet. Unfortunately, the ones who are giving out

advice on LOD don't know what they don't know!

Hum Exp Toxicol. 2009 Apr;28(4):245-51.

Oxalate-mediated oxidant-antioxidant imbalance in

erythrocytes: role of N-acetylcysteine.

Bijarnia RK, Kaur T, Singla SK, Tandon C.

Department of Biotechnology and Bioinformatics, Jaypee

University of Information Technology, Waknaghat, India.

Abstract

The present in-vivo study was to observe the effect of

N-acetylcysteine (NAC) on oxalate-induced oxidative stress

on rat erythrocytes. A total of 15 Wistar rats were

divided into three groups. The control group received

normal saline by single intraperitoneal injection.

Hyperoxaluria was induced by single intraperitoneal (i.p.)

dose of sodium oxalate (70 mg/kg body weight in 0.5 mL

saline) to a second group. The third group was

administered single i.p. dose of NAC according to 200

mg/kg body weight dissolved in 0.5 mL saline, half an hour

after oxalate dose. NAC administration normalized

antioxidant enzyme activities (superoxide dismutase and

catalase) and reduced malondialdehyde content (indicator

of lipid peroxidation) in hyperoxaluric rat's red blood

cell (RBC) lysate. NAC administration also resulted in a

significant improvement of thiol content in RBC lysate via

increasing reduced glutathione content and maintaining its

redox status. Oxalate-caused alteration of

cholesterol/phospholipid ratio (determining membrane

fluidity) was also rebalanced by NAC administration.

Further, after NAC administration, electron microscopy

showed improved cell morphology presenting its

prophylactic properties. Above results indicate that NAC

treatment is associated with an increase in plasma

antioxidant capacity and a reduction in the susceptibility

of erythrocyte membranes to oxidation. Thus, the study

presents positive pharmacological implications of NAC

against oxalate-mediated impairment of erythrocytes.

PMID: 19734276

Eur J Pharmacol. 2008 Jan 28;579(1-3):330-6. Epub 2007 Oct

16.

Mitochondrial dysfunction in an animal model of

hyperoxaluria: a prophylactic approach with fucoidan.

Veena CK, phine A, Preetha SP, Rajesh NG, Varalakshmi

P.

Department of Medical Biochemistry, Dr. ALM. Post Graduate

Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, University of Madras,

Taramani Campus, Chennai - 600 113, India.

Abstract

Oxalate/calcium oxalate toxicity is mediated through

generation of reactive oxygen species in a process that

partly depends upon events that induce mitochondrial

damage. Mitochondrial dysfunction is an important event

favoring stone formation. The objective of the present

study was to investigate whether mitochondria is a target

for oxalate/calcium oxalate and the plausible role of

naturally occurring glycosaminoglycans from edible

seaweed, fucoidan in ameliorating mitochondrial damage.

Male albino rats of Wistar strain were divided into four

groups and treated as follows: Group I: vehicle treated

control, Group II: hyperoxaluria was induced with 0.75%

ethylene glycol in drinking water for 28 days, Group III:

fucoidan from F. vesiculosus (5 mg/kg b.wt, s.c) from the

8th day of the experimental period, Group IV: ethylene

glycol+fucoidan treated rats. The tricarboxylic acid (TCA)

cycle enzymes like succinate dehydrogenase, isocitrate

dehydrogenase, malate dehydrogenase and respiratory

complex enzyme activities were assessed to evaluate

mitochondrial function. Oxidative stress was assessed

based on the activities of antioxidant enzymes, level of

reactive oxygen species, lipid peroxidation and reduced

glutathione. Mitochondrial swelling was also analyzed.

Ultra structural changes in renal tissue were analyzed

with electron microscope. Hyperoxaluria induced a decrease

in the activities of TCA cycle enzymes and respiratory

complex enzymes. The oxidative stress was evident by the

decrease in antioxidant enzymes, glutathione and an

increase in reactive species and lipid peroxidation in

mitochondria. Mitochondrial damage was evident by

increased mitochondrial swelling. Administration of

fucoidan, decreased reactive oxygen species, lipid

peroxidation (P<0.05), mitochondrial swelling and

increased the activities of antioxidant enzymes and

glutathione levels (P<0.05) and normalized the

activities of mitochondrial TCA cycle and respiratory

complex enzymes (P<0.05). From the present study, it

can be concluded that mitochondrial damage is an essential

event in hyperoxaluria, and fucoidan was able to

effectively prevent it and thereby the renal damage in

hyperoxaluria.

PMID: 18001705

J Urol. 2005 Feb;173(2):640-6.

Citrate provides protection against oxalate and calcium

oxalate crystal induced oxidative damage to renal

epithelium.

Byer K, Khan SR.

Department of Pathology, Immunology and Laboratory

Medicine, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida

32610-0275, USA.

Abstract

PURPOSE: Oxalate and calcium oxalate (CaOx) crystals are

injurious to renal epithelial cells. The injury is caused

by the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS).

Citrate is a well-known inhibitor of CaOx crystallization

and as such it is one of the major therapeutic agents

prescribed. Since citrate increases cellular reduced

nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate and

glutathione (GSH), we hypothesized that exogenously

administered citrate should act as an antioxidant and

protect cells from oxalate induced injury.

MATERIALS AND METHODS: We exposed LLC-PK1 and MDCK cells

to 500 microM/ml oxalate or 150 mug/cm calcium oxalate

crystals for 30, 60 and 180 minutes with or without 3

mg/ml citrate in the medium. We determined cell viability

by lactate dehydrogenase release and trypan blue

exclusion, ROS involvement by changes in hydrogen peroxide

and GSH, and lipid peroxidation by quantifying

8-isoprostane.

RESULTS: The presence of citrate was associated with

significant decrease in lactate dehydrogenase release (p

<0.001) and staining with trypan blue (p <0.05). In

addition, there was a significant increase in GSH (p

<0.005) and a decrease in the production of hydrogen

peroxide (p <0.05) and 8-isoprostane (p <0.0005)

secretion into the culture medium when citrate was present

in the medium.

CONCLUSIONS: Citrate protects cells from oxalate and CaOx

crystal induced injury by preventing lipid peroxidation

through a decrease in ROS production. The results provide

additional data for the beneficial role of citrate therapy

for CaOx nephrolithiasis.

PMID: 15643280 [

>

> What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and

oxaditative stress

>

> Sent from my iPod

>

September 21, 2010

biotin? for high oxalates? that's pretty cool. how much would a 54 lb kid

take? i thought of my son taking this for other reasons. can you take biotin

without the other b's?

thanks!

marth

>

> Low oxalate diet

>

> take calcium OR magnesium prior to mealtimes (this is not to be considered

your

> supplement, it is being used to bind to oxalate; your supplement, be it mag or

> cal, should be taken away from mealtime for the actual

> supplementation/absorption),

>

> consume higher dose biotin,

>

> use VSL#3 if you can (it contains strept strain and milk I believe) I

purchased

> Custom Probiotics 11 strain b/c it does not contain strept but most of the

same

> probiotics as VSL#3 (VSL#3 has been laboratory proven to degrade oxalate)

>

> --- Toni

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: mb12 valtrex

> Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:53:13 AM

> Subject: Oxalates

>

> What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and oxaditative stress

>

> Sent from my iPod

>

September 21, 2010

biotin? for high oxalates? that's pretty cool. how much would a 54 lb kid

take? i thought of my son taking this for other reasons. can you take biotin

without the other b's?

thanks!

marth

>

> Low oxalate diet

>

> take calcium OR magnesium prior to mealtimes (this is not to be considered

your

> supplement, it is being used to bind to oxalate; your supplement, be it mag or

> cal, should be taken away from mealtime for the actual

> supplementation/absorption),

>

> consume higher dose biotin,

>

> use VSL#3 if you can (it contains strept strain and milk I believe) I

purchased

> Custom Probiotics 11 strain b/c it does not contain strept but most of the

same

> probiotics as VSL#3 (VSL#3 has been laboratory proven to degrade oxalate)

>

> --- Toni

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: mb12 valtrex

> Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:53:13 AM

> Subject: Oxalates

>

> What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and oxaditative stress

>

> Sent from my iPod

>

September 21, 2010

You are supposed to start low and slow. I did that over the summer, ran out of pills, and then restarted them at a high dose. And I am living thru some not-fun times this weekend till now... So, I started at 150 mcg and moved it up like every three days.There is no known toxic level. Many are taking 7500 mcg and 10000 mcg, and yes some of these are children.I am taking 7500 and my kids are on 5000 mcg.Please work up slowly... apparently starting high can cause a "dump" which can be all kinds of problems. --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:06:59 AMSubject: Re: Oxalates

biotin? for high oxalates? that's pretty cool. how much would a 54 lb kid take? i thought of my son taking this for other reasons. can you take biotin without the other b's?

thanks!

marth

>

> Low oxalate diet

>

> take calcium OR magnesium prior to mealtimes (this is not to be considered your

> supplement, it is being used to bind to oxalate; your supplement, be it mag or

> cal, should be taken away from mealtime for the actual

> supplementation/absorption),

>

> consume higher dose biotin,

>

> use VSL#3 if you can (it contains strept strain and milk I believe) I purchased

> Custom Probiotics 11 strain b/c it does not contain strept but most of the same

> probiotics as VSL#3 (VSL#3 has been laboratory proven to degrade oxalate)

>

> --- Toni

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: mb12 valtrex

> Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:53:13 AM

> Subject: Oxalates

>

> What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and oxaditative stress

>

> Sent from my iPod

>

September 21, 2010

You are supposed to start low and slow. I did that over the summer, ran out of pills, and then restarted them at a high dose. And I am living thru some not-fun times this weekend till now... So, I started at 150 mcg and moved it up like every three days.There is no known toxic level. Many are taking 7500 mcg and 10000 mcg, and yes some of these are children.I am taking 7500 and my kids are on 5000 mcg.Please work up slowly... apparently starting high can cause a "dump" which can be all kinds of problems. --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:06:59 AMSubject: Re: Oxalates

biotin? for high oxalates? that's pretty cool. how much would a 54 lb kid take? i thought of my son taking this for other reasons. can you take biotin without the other b's?

thanks!

marth

>

> Low oxalate diet

>

> take calcium OR magnesium prior to mealtimes (this is not to be considered your

> supplement, it is being used to bind to oxalate; your supplement, be it mag or

> cal, should be taken away from mealtime for the actual

> supplementation/absorption),

>

> consume higher dose biotin,

>

> use VSL#3 if you can (it contains strept strain and milk I believe) I purchased

> Custom Probiotics 11 strain b/c it does not contain strept but most of the same

> probiotics as VSL#3 (VSL#3 has been laboratory proven to degrade oxalate)

>

> --- Toni

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: mb12 valtrex

> Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:53:13 AM

> Subject: Oxalates

>

> What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and oxaditative stress

>

> Sent from my iPod

>

September 21, 2010

Ok, all makes sense, so when you have children who are born of a mother with a

mouth full of amalgams and you have hair tests meeting the counting rules, it's

obvious that mercury is a problem, then the problem could be two-fold...? Or is

any of this the RESULT of oxalates? So would it behoove us to do both chelation

AND a LOD?

We are also currently under the care of a homeopath which is fairly new for us

and I feel the need to see this through before adding anything new, because

there have DEFINITELY been changes associated with adding it, but I am willing

and open to anything that will help our son. We briefly (months) tried the LOD

after his OAT was done and we didn't see any change. Chelation has always been

our saving grace. It's so hard to make sense of what is what, what causes what,

what to do first and to prioritize...

I appreciate the time you are taking to walk me through some of this.

> >

> > Thank you ,

> > Does this child still need the diet, even if she is off of the supplements?

And if so, what then gets to the root of the problem, chelation? And my

question pertains to children who have high oxalates, but no other markers

suggesting it's a genetic disorder.

> >

>

September 21, 2010

Oh and just one other question, why is it that so many people heal so many

illnesses, and do SO well on raw food diets? They are eating mostly high

oxalate foods. I know of someone whose daughter had all of these same issues as

our GI kids, yeast and such....she went to the Hipocrates Institute where they

do raw food and wheat grass and she is doing amazing, her colitis is completely

gone!

Again, this makes me question that various directions in which we can come from

to heal such similar health concerns.

> >

> > Thank you ,

> > Does this child still need the diet, even if she is off of the supplements?

And if so, what then gets to the root of the problem, chelation? And my

question pertains to children who have high oxalates, but no other markers

suggesting it's a genetic disorder.

> >

>

September 21, 2010

Tammy,

It is another yahoogroup, called Trying_Low_Oxalats . You join

it the same way you joined this one!

" Listserve " is just another name for an email group.

See you there!

> > >

> > > What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and oxaditative stress

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPod

> > >

> >

>

September 21, 2010

Marth,

The only conflict between biotin absorption and other vitamins/supplements is

with alpha lipoic acid and pantothenic acid. They share the same transporter,

so if you are deficient in pantothenic acid, you would want to correct that at

the same time.

There also seems to be some mutual regulation between magnesium and biotin, so

that occasionally we will see someone who develops magnesium deficiency symptoms

when they are ramping up biotin.

I'll list some deficiency markers for all most of these below.

It is best whenever you are increasing a dose of a vitamin that is a cofactor

for enzymes to ramp up slowly. I always recommend starting at about an eighth

of the dose you are aiming for, and each day increase the dose by an eighth, so

by eight days, you have reached the full dose. With biotin, most people aim for

10-20 mgs in a child, but I would start at 1 mg. the first day, then ramp up.

I studied biotin extensively many years ago and realized the doses DAN! was

using could be way too low to see an effect after I read a paper that showed

dystonia caused by a thiamine transporter defect responded to biotin treatment

at 5-10 mgs/kg/day in children. This was HUGE, since a kilogram is ! I studied

a lot of papers at that point, and began presenting the data on lists like

sulfurstories and abmd, and slowly, as people ramped up biotin, many were MUCH

better. That's when Jon Pangborn and Sid Baker invited me to write a little

mini-chapter on biotin for their " DAN! manual " that you buy at ARI's

conferences. It is still there!

But what we learned practically is in the archives of those lists

After I learned that oxalate impairs the function of biotin in carboxylase

enzymes, I went back and looked at those " testimonials " and was taken aback when

I realized that the improvements had a lot of overlap with what we also saw as

the early responses to the low oxalate diet. That makes sense! Of course,

carboxylase inhibition is only ONE of many of the ways that oxalate impairs cell

function, but at least the overlap made sense. I do know that during dumping is

the most important time to have adequate biotin because of this inhibition.

I think I'll post the deficiency signs in a separate post.

> >

> > Low oxalate diet

> >

> > take calcium OR magnesium prior to mealtimes (this is not to be considered

your

> > supplement, it is being used to bind to oxalate; your supplement, be it mag

or

> > cal, should be taken away from mealtime for the actual

> > supplementation/absorption),

> >

> > consume higher dose biotin,

> >

> > use VSL#3 if you can (it contains strept strain and milk I believe) I

purchased

> > Custom Probiotics 11 strain b/c it does not contain strept but most of the

same

> > probiotics as VSL#3 (VSL#3 has been laboratory proven to degrade oxalate)

> >

> > --- Toni

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: Rhonda Balque <rhondabalque@>

> > To: mb12 valtrex

> > Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:53:13 AM

> > Subject: Oxalates

> >

> > What's is the best way to decrease oxalates and oxaditative stress

> >

> > Sent from my iPod

> >

>

September 21, 2010

Epsom salt baths and Mag Sulfate Cream-

My son has been both addicted to & reactive (immediate extreme hyperactivity) to

high oxalate foods since age one. It must be similair to the craving for

allergic foods effect. I finally had the OAT done when he was 6 & what do you

know, his markers for oxalates were very high. We started w/ Epsom salt baths &

now do the cream instead. They both have helped tremendously. Whenever he has

any artificial color (which is very rare) or high oxalate food, I rub the cream

on asap and he doesn't climb the walls like he would without it. I've also

noticed that the Mag Sulfate temporarily takes away some of his tactile

sensitivity.

September 21, 2010

I haven't looked closely at our OAT's I (sheepishly admit) I let my DAN interpret for me. Does it literally list oxalate and a value or should I be looking at other markers? Can you tell me what those are? We've done several OAT's and I want to go back and look through them, thanks so much, Alison M Re: Oxalates Epsom salt baths and Mag Sulfate Cream-My son has been both addicted to & reactive (immediate extreme hyperactivity) to high oxalate foods since age one. It must be similair to the craving for allergic foods effect. I finally had the OAT done when he was 6 & what do you know, his markers for oxalates were very high. We started w/ Epsom salt baths & now do the cream instead. They both have helped tremendously. Whenever he has any artificial color (which is very rare) or high oxalate food, I rub the cream on asap and he doesn't climb the walls like he would without it. I've also noticed that the Mag Sulfate temporarily takes away some of his tactile sensitivity.

September 21, 2010

I haven't looked closely at our OAT's I (sheepishly admit) I let my DAN interpret for me. Does it literally list oxalate and a value or should I be looking at other markers? Can you tell me what those are? We've done several OAT's and I want to go back and look through them, thanks so much, Alison M Re: Oxalates Epsom salt baths and Mag Sulfate Cream-My son has been both addicted to & reactive (immediate extreme hyperactivity) to high oxalate foods since age one. It must be similair to the craving for allergic foods effect. I finally had the OAT done when he was 6 & what do you know, his markers for oxalates were very high. We started w/ Epsom salt baths & now do the cream instead. They both have helped tremendously. Whenever he has any artificial color (which is very rare) or high oxalate food, I rub the cream on asap and he doesn't climb the walls like he would without it. I've also noticed that the Mag Sulfate temporarily takes away some of his tactile sensitivity.

September 21, 2010

I haven't looked closely at our OAT's I (sheepishly admit) I let my DAN interpret for me. Does it literally list oxalate and a value or should I be looking at other markers? Can you tell me what those are? We've done several OAT's and I want to go back and look through them, thanks so much, Alison M Re: Oxalates Epsom salt baths and Mag Sulfate Cream-My son has been both addicted to & reactive (immediate extreme hyperactivity) to high oxalate foods since age one. It must be similair to the craving for allergic foods effect. I finally had the OAT done when he was 6 & what do you know, his markers for oxalates were very high. We started w/ Epsom salt baths & now do the cream instead. They both have helped tremendously. Whenever he has any artificial color (which is very rare) or high oxalate food, I rub the cream on asap and he doesn't climb the walls like he would without it. I've also noticed that the Mag Sulfate temporarily takes away some of his tactile sensitivity.

September 21, 2010

There are three values listed under what I think is "oxalic acids." --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 4:08:26 PMSubject: Re: Re: Oxalates

I haven't looked closely at our OAT's I (sheepishly admit) I let my DAN interpret for me. Does it literally list oxalate and a value or should I be looking at other markers? Can you tell me what those are? We've done several OAT's and I want to go back and look through them, thanks so much, Alison M Re: Oxalates Epsom salt baths and Mag Sulfate Cream-My son has been both addicted to & reactive (immediate extreme hyperactivity) to high oxalate foods since age one. It must be similair to the craving for allergic foods effect. I finally had the OAT done when he was 6 & what do you know, his markers for oxalates were very high. We started w/

Epsom salt baths & now do the cream instead. They both have helped tremendously. Whenever he has any artificial color (which is very rare) or high oxalate food, I rub the cream on asap and he doesn't climb the walls like he would without it. I've also noticed that the Mag Sulfate temporarily takes away some of his tactile sensitivity.

September 21, 2010

There are three values listed under what I think is "oxalic acids." --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 4:08:26 PMSubject: Re: Re: Oxalates

I haven't looked closely at our OAT's I (sheepishly admit) I let my DAN interpret for me. Does it literally list oxalate and a value or should I be looking at other markers? Can you tell me what those are? We've done several OAT's and I want to go back and look through them, thanks so much, Alison M Re: Oxalates Epsom salt baths and Mag Sulfate Cream-My son has been both addicted to & reactive (immediate extreme hyperactivity) to high oxalate foods since age one. It must be similair to the craving for allergic foods effect. I finally had the OAT done when he was 6 & what do you know, his markers for oxalates were very high. We started w/

Epsom salt baths & now do the cream instead. They both have helped tremendously. Whenever he has any artificial color (which is very rare) or high oxalate food, I rub the cream on asap and he doesn't climb the walls like he would without it. I've also noticed that the Mag Sulfate temporarily takes away some of his tactile sensitivity.

September 21, 2010

There are three values listed under what I think is "oxalic acids." --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 4:08:26 PMSubject: Re: Re: Oxalates

I haven't looked closely at our OAT's I (sheepishly admit) I let my DAN interpret for me. Does it literally list oxalate and a value or should I be looking at other markers? Can you tell me what those are? We've done several OAT's and I want to go back and look through them, thanks so much, Alison M Re: Oxalates Epsom salt baths and Mag Sulfate Cream-My son has been both addicted to & reactive (immediate extreme hyperactivity) to high oxalate foods since age one. It must be similair to the craving for allergic foods effect. I finally had the OAT done when he was 6 & what do you know, his markers for oxalates were very high. We started w/

Epsom salt baths & now do the cream instead. They both have helped tremendously. Whenever he has any artificial color (which is very rare) or high oxalate food, I rub the cream on asap and he doesn't climb the walls like he would without it. I've also noticed that the Mag Sulfate temporarily takes away some of his tactile sensitivity.

September 22, 2010

,

Some people may be populated with a microbe called oxalobacter formigenes that

actually EATS oxalate as its only food and this microbe cannot survive without

it.

Years ago a scientist named Milt (nice man, almost eighty) developed a

way to test the stool for oxalobacter's oxalate degrading activity. People

using his test studied those with kidney stones and other high risk groups like

cystic fibrosis and found that they were much less likely to be populated with

oxalobacter than normal healthy controls.

I knew when I started the Autism Oxalate Project that lack of that objective

test would cause confusion about the oxalate issue because of people not

realizing what a HUGE a difference it makes if you are colonized with

oxalobacter or if you aren't.

I asked Dr. if he could provide that testing for us, but he was already

set for retirement and not in the position to make this test available

commercially. He asked me to try and find a lab that would do his test.

I spent five years trying to convince many different labs to offer that test,

and that led me down a lot of blind alleys. Fortunately, at the conference I

just attended in NYC, one of the scientists there decided that he actually did

have the resources to begin to develop that test for both commercial and

research use.

Why is this important, and what does it have to do with the question you asked

about raw food?

If you have oxalobacter, eating more oxalate may make this microbe grow and

expand and get better at persuading more oxalate to be secreted to the gut for

its detoxification. That may be why some succeed with higher oxalate diets and

raw food diets. I think it is possible that in that case, the high oxalate

foods might egg on oxalobacter enough to increase oxalate detoxification of the

body because of this microbe acting in the gut.

I realize this wasn't the premise advanced for the mechanism behind SCD, but it

is perhaps as plausible a reason for its effectiveness as the one that Elaine

Gottschall advanced. Her explanation is still theory, as far as I can tell. We

know that when she developed this theory, she had no way to know about oxalate

and how it affects the gut in diseases like Crohns and ulcerative colitis. A

world of research in this area has been done even since she died!

If, in someone different, an antibiotic had already killed off this microbe, or

if for some other reason someone was just never colonized, then the microbe

would not be able to expand in response to the high oxalate food, and you would

just absorb the oxalate in that food and build up more and more oxalate in your

system, damaging the body. Oxalate is very toxic once it gets to blood if your

biochemistry is not designed like oxalobacter!

The oxalate that is there and not being degraded in the gut may actually make it

harder or you to stay colonized with good commensals like acidophilus and

bifidus, for they CAN under stress degrade oxalate if there is nothing else for

them to eat (like when you are restricting sugars and starches on an

anti-candida diet), but it makes them sort of sick and they might die.

I learned at the conference in New York that the major scientist studying

oxalate issues in the gut decided to study differences in colonization with

oxalobacter in mice she made to be like patients with primary hyperoxaluria

because she broke their gene for AGT. They were perhaps also like people with

the sort of pyridoxine problems that Bernie Rimland studied in autism.

She learned that if you infused these genetically different mice with

oxalobacter formigenes, the oxalobacter would degrade oxalate for a little

while, but it would die out completely within about a week. In normal rats,

using the same procedures, oxalobacter would colonize permanently. Big

surprise!

So there are some people who maybe will never be able to colonize, even after

this probiotic is made available as a drug which I hope will happen soon. We've

been waiting five years!

So there are all these variables that may make what works for one person not

work for another. Do you see what an important concept that is? Does it now

make sense why a raw food diet might help some people clear their own stored

oxalate, but could make others much more sick by making them absorb more

oxalate?

This aspect of colonization with oxalobacter is why I don't and why no one else

should recommend a NO oxalate diet without knowing the status of this microbe in

the gut, and why I am not persuaded that going excessively low is a good idea

unless you are defintely not colonized. You don't want to kill it if it is

there! This is why LOD only reduces oxalate by half of what is normal.

So there are big differences in people, even though the common enemy in the

blood that contributes to a particular set of autism symptoms could be the very

same thing....oxalate. For reasons of gut permeability, or reasons of flora

problems, or for pyridoxine or thiamine deficiency, or because of a genetic

defect in the oxalate-managing chemistry, the same problem with having excess

blood oxalate could occur, but all from different sources and reasons.

This diversity is why it makes NO SENSE for people who succeed on SCD, for

instance, to tell those who cannot succeed on SCD that they are doing something

wrong in how they are implementing that diet. No, when someone isn't colonized,

the underlying issues and how that diet works or doesn't work may be completely

different.

As our project got more experienced with reducing oxalate, we found that few of

those who made the big wow improvements on the diet had any urinary issues

before or after LOD, but what was improving the most was gastrointestinal

issues, sociability, executive function, speech, developmental delay, gross and

fine motor issues, sleep, growth, ability to initiate physical and mental

actions, less pain of many sorts, and on and on.

If you never heard me at AutismOne, then you never learned how oxalate works

biologically and how it affects the sulfur and sulfate chemistry, and issues

like secretion in the pancreas, gut and kidney and all about when and why it is

sometimes made by our bodies, and which enzymes it inhibits and other

information we discuss on Trying Low Oxalates.

It ends up that what you haven't heard is probably the most important part of

the oxalate story, and unfortunately, the doctors and nutritionists at this

point don't know all this either, but at least now you have had a glance of how

much more there is to know!

I hope that our discussions over the past few days here have helped people

reading this thread understand that the science behind oxalate is more involved

than just going on a diet, and there are other ways to have developed an oxalate

problem. What you need to have is an understanding of what this toxin is, where

it may come from, where it acts, how the body handles detoxifying it, and what

systems it interferes with and how it is related to autism.

Learning how to reduce oxalate in the diet to levels about half of normal is

just a small subset of the information that explains oxalate's relationship to

autism and what might be changing relative to oxalate on other diets that also

work for many children! It is very common for those who lose much more of their

autism problems on LOD, to have come to our listserve with a history of

wonderful improvements on g/f c/f, and continued improvement on early SCD, but

disaster once high oxalate foods were introduced.

The availability of this test will put some needed objectivity into how to

choose which diet you need to do first. Even so, I encourage those on LOD to

stay or get gluten free, because gluten leads to excess gut permeability, and

that is what makes oxalate in food a problem. For more info on that,

read:www.lowoxalate.info/papers/mechanisms.html.

>

> Oh and just one other question, why is it that so many people heal so many

illnesses, and do SO well on raw food diets? They are eating mostly high

oxalate foods. I know of someone whose daughter had all of these same issues as

our GI kids, yeast and such....she went to the Hipocrates Institute where they

do raw food and wheat grass and she is doing amazing, her colitis is completely

gone!

>

> Again, this makes me question that various directions in which we can come

from to heal such similar health concerns.

>

> ---

September 22, 2010

, you have no idea how much I appreciate the time it obviously took you to

compile this response. It has been very helpful and actually you did remind me

of why we didn't stick to the LOD when we were trying it. Our son had 23 food

sensitivities at the time (when we also found out about the high oxalates on his

OAT, as well and elevated yeast and bacteria), so we were forced to make a

decision. We couldn't remove 23 foods to reduce his sensitivities and ALSO

remove high oxalate foods, because they didn't overlap, which meant reducing his

diet to such unhealthy, limited choices. I am no stranger to diet change and

when I feel it's warranted, have been known to go cold turkey overnight, but

we've had such a challenge with so many layers that we had to pick and choose

our battles. I also did not have this information at hand. I called GPL and

spoke with a doctor there who convinced me that the LOD wasn't beneficial! They

didn't like to see kids on it. Imagine that?

We are now in a place where I feel he has less food sensitivities (based only on

symptoms) and has not reacted as much when reintroducing most of the foods on

his list. We still avoid gluten, casein, and potato, but I think we have more

leniency with his diet now allowing us room to try the LOD. My only problem

with it is that it seems like a LOT of very nutritious foods are being removed

and that is something I have a very hard time with, especially since these kids

are already losing other foods with nutritional value. We have been relying on

foods like spinach and kale a lot, a lot of raw veggies with high nutritional

value.

I assume there is a yahoo group or site where I can learn more about the

supplements needed and how to proceed. We had just recently gone with more raw

foods and had increased things like almond (for baking) and cashews as dips and

dressings, buckwheat in energy bars...sprouted and soaked, of course, does this

change ANY of it? One can wish....sigh. I just bought a dehydrator and many

books on raw foods. It's so exhausting to make so much change, just to have to

change it all yet again....Again, thank you so much for the information, it jump

started my research. I can tell you that two years ago, my son's oxalates were

very high (129.72) on his GPL OAT. I haven't tested again recently, out of

sheer cost. I would love to know what it's like now.

> >

> > Oh and just one other question, why is it that so many people heal so many

illnesses, and do SO well on raw food diets? They are eating mostly high

oxalate foods. I know of someone whose daughter had all of these same issues as

our GI kids, yeast and such....she went to the Hipocrates Institute where they

do raw food and wheat grass and she is doing amazing, her colitis is completely

gone!

> >

> > Again, this makes me question that various directions in which we can come

from to heal such similar health concerns.

> >

> > ---

>

September 22, 2010

,There is the yahoo group trying_low_oxalates and then the website lowoxalate.infoWith some of the IGG foods your child does not react to extremely, you could rotate those if they were low oxalate.Also, for spinach, you can use arugala. It is a little spicy so may require more salad dressing LOLKale can be done, I believe a couple of ladies are boiling or blanching it and then dehydrating it to make Kale chips.Since when you start LOD, you want to reduce slowly, you start with the highest stuff, like remove peanut butter and replace with sunflower butter, remove almonds, replace with macadamia, remove berries, replace with banana, boil carrots instead of steaming (then start reducing quantity), use rice pasta instead of quinoa, etcThis would take you

from a diet high/extremely high to a mid-level oxalate diet... and then you gradually replace things or reduce portions or find new ways to cook a something. Some people use red pepper paste/sauce as pizza sauce, for instance (we are on Feingold too so we don't use red peppers)There are several recipes on the group. I have not been too ambitious to try them, mostly I just try to do my best to avoid high ox and make small portion sizes. For instance we still eat potatoes, but i get red potatoes, and they each get about 2 tablespoons tops, no skin. We still allow carrots, but not straight from the bag, more like 2 baby carrots, that is it. I allow them like 2 tablespoons of sweet potatoes, maybe twice a month. You do NOT want to go cold turkey or be militant at the beginning. You will set yourself up for grief. :::hugs::: --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 11:29:19 AMSubject: Re: Oxalates

, you have no idea how much I appreciate the time it obviously took you to compile this response. It has been very helpful and actually you did remind me of why we didn't stick to the LOD when we were trying it. Our son had 23 food sensitivities at the time (when we also found out about the high oxalates on his OAT, as well and elevated yeast and bacteria), so we were forced to make a decision. We couldn't remove 23 foods to reduce his sensitivities and ALSO remove high oxalate foods, because they didn't overlap, which meant reducing his diet to such unhealthy, limited choices. I am no stranger to diet change and when I feel it's warranted, have been known to go cold turkey overnight, but we've had such a challenge with so many layers that we had to pick and choose our battles. I also did not have this information at hand. I called GPL and spoke with a doctor there who convinced me that the LOD wasn't beneficial! They didn't like to

see kids on it. Imagine that?

We are now in a place where I feel he has less food sensitivities (based only on symptoms) and has not reacted as much when reintroducing most of the foods on his list. We still avoid gluten, casein, and potato, but I think we have more leniency with his diet now allowing us room to try the LOD. My only problem with it is that it seems like a LOT of very nutritious foods are being removed and that is something I have a very hard time with, especially since these kids are already losing other foods with nutritional value. We have been relying on foods like spinach and kale a lot, a lot of raw veggies with high nutritional value.

I assume there is a yahoo group or site where I can learn more about the supplements needed and how to proceed. We had just recently gone with more raw foods and had increased things like almond (for baking) and cashews as dips and dressings, buckwheat in energy bars...sprouted and soaked, of course, does this change ANY of it? One can wish....sigh. I just bought a dehydrator and many books on raw foods. It's so exhausting to make so much change, just to have to change it all yet again....Again, thank you so much for the information, it jump started my research. I can tell you that two years ago, my son's oxalates were very high (129.72) on his GPL OAT. I haven't tested again recently, out of sheer cost. I would love to know what it's like now.

> >

> > Oh and just one other question, why is it that so many people heal so many illnesses, and do SO well on raw food diets? They are eating mostly high oxalate foods. I know of someone whose daughter had all of these same issues as our GI kids, yeast and such....she went to the Hipocrates Institute where they do raw food and wheat grass and she is doing amazing, her colitis is completely gone!

> >

> > Again, this makes me question that various directions in which we can come from to heal such similar health concerns.

> >

> > ---

>

September 22, 2010

,There is the yahoo group trying_low_oxalates and then the website lowoxalate.infoWith some of the IGG foods your child does not react to extremely, you could rotate those if they were low oxalate.Also, for spinach, you can use arugala. It is a little spicy so may require more salad dressing LOLKale can be done, I believe a couple of ladies are boiling or blanching it and then dehydrating it to make Kale chips.Since when you start LOD, you want to reduce slowly, you start with the highest stuff, like remove peanut butter and replace with sunflower butter, remove almonds, replace with macadamia, remove berries, replace with banana, boil carrots instead of steaming (then start reducing quantity), use rice pasta instead of quinoa, etcThis would take you

from a diet high/extremely high to a mid-level oxalate diet... and then you gradually replace things or reduce portions or find new ways to cook a something. Some people use red pepper paste/sauce as pizza sauce, for instance (we are on Feingold too so we don't use red peppers)There are several recipes on the group. I have not been too ambitious to try them, mostly I just try to do my best to avoid high ox and make small portion sizes. For instance we still eat potatoes, but i get red potatoes, and they each get about 2 tablespoons tops, no skin. We still allow carrots, but not straight from the bag, more like 2 baby carrots, that is it. I allow them like 2 tablespoons of sweet potatoes, maybe twice a month. You do NOT want to go cold turkey or be militant at the beginning. You will set yourself up for grief. :::hugs::: --- ToniTo: mb12 valtrex Sent: Wed, September 22, 2010 11:29:19 AMSubject: Re: Oxalates

, you have no idea how much I appreciate the time it obviously took you to compile this response. It has been very helpful and actually you did remind me of why we didn't stick to the LOD when we were trying it. Our son had 23 food sensitivities at the time (when we also found out about the high oxalates on his OAT, as well and elevated yeast and bacteria), so we were forced to make a decision. We couldn't remove 23 foods to reduce his sensitivities and ALSO remove high oxalate foods, because they didn't overlap, which meant reducing his diet to such unhealthy, limited choices. I am no stranger to diet change and when I feel it's warranted, have been known to go cold turkey overnight, but we've had such a challenge with so many layers that we had to pick and choose our battles. I also did not have this information at hand. I called GPL and spoke with a doctor there who convinced me that the LOD wasn't beneficial! They didn't like to

see kids on it. Imagine that?

We are now in a place where I feel he has less food sensitivities (based only on symptoms) and has not reacted as much when reintroducing most of the foods on his list. We still avoid gluten, casein, and potato, but I think we have more leniency with his diet now allowing us room to try the LOD. My only problem with it is that it seems like a LOT of very nutritious foods are being removed and that is something I have a very hard time with, especially since these kids are already losing other foods with nutritional value. We have been relying on foods like spinach and kale a lot, a lot of raw veggies with high nutritional value.

I assume there is a yahoo group or site where I can learn more about the supplements needed and how to proceed. We had just recently gone with more raw foods and had increased things like almond (for baking) and cashews as dips and dressings, buckwheat in energy bars...sprouted and soaked, of course, does this change ANY of it? One can wish....sigh. I just bought a dehydrator and many books on raw foods. It's so exhausting to make so much change, just to have to change it all yet again....Again, thank you so much for the information, it jump started my research. I can tell you that two years ago, my son's oxalates were very high (129.72) on his GPL OAT. I haven't tested again recently, out of sheer cost. I would love to know what it's like now.

> >

> > Oh and just one other question, why is it that so many people heal so many illnesses, and do SO well on raw food diets? They are eating mostly high oxalate foods. I know of someone whose daughter had all of these same issues as our GI kids, yeast and such....she went to the Hipocrates Institute where they do raw food and wheat grass and she is doing amazing, her colitis is completely gone!

> >

> > Again, this makes me question that various directions in which we can come from to heal such similar health concerns.

> >

> > ---

>

September 22, 2010

,

I'm glad that what you are learning now has been helpful!

Which foods are you worried about losing and what is true about their nutrition

that you think you cannot get with other foods that are fine on LOD?

When you have a leaky gut, what you become reactive to is what you are eating

because fractions of those food proteins are getting to the blood which responds

with IgG antibodies. As you stop eating them, the reactivity goes away and you

start reacting to the new foods that you substituted if you haven't changed the

leakiness of the gut!

Dr. Clavera uses the IgG food tests in her practice, and she became convinced

that LOD solved the leaky gut for a lot of children simply because their COUNT

of reactive foods shifted down so far once she switched her patients to reduced

oxalate. This change happened probably because the oxalate in high oxalate

foods would strip the calcium from cadherins molecules on the side of intestinal

cells that actually use calcium to zip up the leaky gut and reduce intestinal

permeability. Insoluble oxalate will always be going after minerals to bind,

like calcium, magnesium, iron and manganese and stripping them from use as

cofactors in enzyme reactions.

Some high oxalate plants look like they have high levels of minerals, but those

minerals are not bioavailable.

Have you read " Mechanism Behind the Leaky Gut " ?

Kale is not high in oxalate, even though it is a green leafy vegetable. It has

seventy times less oxalate at the same amount of spinach and is an excellent

source of vitamin K, in fact, better than spinach!

I have one slide that compares " green leafy vegetables " . Bok choy, cabbages and

kale, lettuce and arugula can supply all that sort of " green leaf " nutrition you

could want without the oxalate!

Oxalate is present in plants to defend them against insect preditors, but foods

that contain oxalate are giving you a potent antinutrient which strips the

nutrition that you are getting from other foods you eat at the same time.

Studies done decades before spinach became popular showed that by ADDING spinach

to a diet that the animals ceased to grow properly, could not reproduce, and

their bones and teeth could not mineralize. Many died before they should have

died because they were very unhealthy. All these studies did was ADD spinach as

a regular food, and they got exactly the same results! Look at

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/1/137 and look at page 11 of

this study from 1939: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/18/3/233.pdf, but

there are others, too.

Some of the confusion about which foods are high and low comes from data that

was collected long ago by the USDA, and has since been determined by other

scientists to have totally missed the boat on a lot of items. Some kidney sites

and other internet sites and books use that old data. Our project bases our

recommendations on new labwork done in the last few years at the University of

Wyoming using now more verified techniques and we are constantly testing new

items, especially those used by the gluten-free community.

One thing to think about, , is that when I first presented the oxalate

research to the autism community, it was the new kid on the block, and those who

tried the diet actually were people who had already done the whole DAN!

antifungal, GFCF/SCD thing and they were not introducing anything new besides

the diet at that point. The changes these parents saw in their children on the

diet were brand new, dramatic, and way beyond what they had seen before and they

were seeing change in areas that had never changed before on these other

therapies. That really WAS the news!

Our yahoogroup is Trying_Low_Oxalates and its website is

www.lowoxalate.info that provides a link also to the yahoogroup. There are

presently 3250 members on that yahoogroup.

We would love to see you there, and anyone else from MB12valtrex who wants to

learn more!

>

> , you have no idea how much I appreciate the time it obviously took you

to compile this response. It has been very helpful and actually you did remind

me of why we didn't stick to the LOD when we were trying it. Our son had 23

food sensitivities at the time (when we also found out about the high oxalates

on his OAT, as well and elevated yeast and bacteria), so we were forced to make

a decision. We couldn't remove 23 foods to reduce his sensitivities and ALSO

remove high oxalate foods, because they didn't overlap, which meant reducing his

diet to such unhealthy, limited choices. I am no stranger to diet change and

when I feel it's warranted, have been known to go cold turkey overnight, but

we've had such a challenge with so many layers that we had to pick and choose

our battles. I also did not have this information at hand. I called GPL and

spoke with a doctor there who convinced me that the LOD wasn't beneficial! They

didn't like to see kids on it. Imagine that?

>

> We are now in a place where I feel he has less food sensitivities (based only

on symptoms) and has not reacted as much when reintroducing most of the foods on

his list. We still avoid gluten, casein, and potato, but I think we have more

leniency with his diet now allowing us room to try the LOD. My only problem

with it is that it seems like a LOT of very nutritious foods are being removed

and that is something I have a very hard time with, especially since these kids

are already losing other foods with nutritional value. We have been relying on

foods like spinach and kale a lot, a lot of raw veggies with high nutritional

value.

>

> I assume there is a yahoo group or site where I can learn more about the