Guest guest Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Ther is a negative--it is extremely expensive. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX " Faith is believing what you know ain't so. " Mark Twain Following the Equator Don't miss EMStock 2004!http://www.emstock.com Re: In a message dated 4/15/2004 11:04:47 PM Central Daylight Time, Etlaesium@... writes: In our case (A/TCEMS), we utilize STARFlight as a first response vehicle for scenes that are a certain distance to the responding ambulance. In these cases, it is more prevalent for STARFlight to hand off the patient to us. So, you're saying the helicopter is used as a first responder unit, then when the medic unit gets there they transfer care to you for transport? Interesting....(that's not a neg. or pos. interesting btw...just an interesting!) Never heard of that being done before! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Ther is a negative--it is extremely expensive. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX " Faith is believing what you know ain't so. " Mark Twain Following the Equator Don't miss EMStock 2004!http://www.emstock.com Re: In a message dated 4/15/2004 11:04:47 PM Central Daylight Time, Etlaesium@... writes: In our case (A/TCEMS), we utilize STARFlight as a first response vehicle for scenes that are a certain distance to the responding ambulance. In these cases, it is more prevalent for STARFlight to hand off the patient to us. So, you're saying the helicopter is used as a first responder unit, then when the medic unit gets there they transfer care to you for transport? Interesting....(that's not a neg. or pos. interesting btw...just an interesting!) Never heard of that being done before! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Oh, I know they have a place. I've spent many hours in them. But all in all they're over used. I know crews who call them because they don't want to be involved in the transport of a critical patient for fear they'll screw up, or they're just too lazy to cowboy up to what needs to be done. Sometimes the helo is the best thing for the patient, especially when the choice is between helo and one of those crews. But really, there is not much evidence for helo use most of the time. And I'm scared to death of the way helo EMS is being run right now. There are entirely too many accidents and fatalities. I've had friends die in helo accidents and had friends barely survive. I've been in several forced landings myself, and I can tell you that it's not something you want to do on a daily basis. We just need to reassess our utilization of air and restrict it to those times when there is a real benefit, and we have to stop fooling ourselves that benefits exist when they don't. Helicopters are very sexy machines. They are also very deadly machines when things don't go right. Use them when you really need them, but know the difference between when you do and when you don't. That's all. GG In a message dated 4/16/2004 12:38:41 AM Central Daylight Time, lverrett@... writes: Mr. Gandy, the only thing I can say is this, You just had to have been there to see it. Not much of a defense mind you but Please understand I only meant to say that helicopters do have a place is all. I am not saying that they should take place of ground units by any means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Hmmm. If the problem is just getting a paramedic to the scene in an acceptable amount of time, why not use medics on motorcycles? I surmise that the reason air is being called is because of the gridlock that surrounds Austin? Cycles are being used in all sorts of places all around the world and may be just as quick as birds if the only impediment is traffic. Or maybe those cycle/rickshaw things they call TukTuks in Thailand. They go everywhere, on the sidewalk, through the mall, you name it. Much less expensive and quite a bit safer. Probably just as quick if System Status Management were employed to position them properly. It is well known that right correct computer system can pinpoint exactly the time and location of your next call. Jack Stout said so. So why not send a crew on a Harley to be there ahead of time and cut response time to Zero? Or, if you prefer, because this is Texas, put medics ahorseback. They can get there very quickly and evacuate patients using the old Possibly Original American Unless The Original Americans Were In Fact Muslims As Recently Alleged method of making a stretcher out of two poles and a blanket and dragging it behind a horse. Don't forget the horsie diaper to avoid wound contamination. Also, (GOD, I'll regret this) what's the particular advantage of having a nurse on the scene? Best, Dr. Grady. In a message dated 4/16/2004 11:49:14 PM Central Daylight Time, Etlaesium@... writes: Kathi, That is exactly what I am saying. STARFlight is primarily an EMS vehicle capable of responding to scenes and transporting the sick and injured. We utilize them as a first response method of getting a Paramedic (and a nurse) to the scene in an acceptable amount of time. If the patient does not warrant transport via helicopter, they hand off the patient to the ground ambulance just as we would to them if we were there first and the patient rated a helicopter transport. Mike Re: In a message dated 4/15/2004 11:04:47 PM Central Daylight Time, Etlaesium@... writes: In our case (A/TCEMS), we utilize STARFlight as a first response vehicle for scenes that are a certain distance to the responding ambulance. In these cases, it is more prevalent for STARFlight to hand off the patient to us. So, you're saying the helicopter is used as a first responder unit, then when the medic unit gets there they transfer care to you for transport? Interesting....(that's not a neg. or pos. interesting btw...just an interesting!) Never heard of that being done before! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Hmmm. If the problem is just getting a paramedic to the scene in an acceptable amount of time, why not use medics on motorcycles? I surmise that the reason air is being called is because of the gridlock that surrounds Austin? Cycles are being used in all sorts of places all around the world and may be just as quick as birds if the only impediment is traffic. Or maybe those cycle/rickshaw things they call TukTuks in Thailand. They go everywhere, on the sidewalk, through the mall, you name it. Much less expensive and quite a bit safer. Probably just as quick if System Status Management were employed to position them properly. It is well known that right correct computer system can pinpoint exactly the time and location of your next call. Jack Stout said so. So why not send a crew on a Harley to be there ahead of time and cut response time to Zero? Or, if you prefer, because this is Texas, put medics ahorseback. They can get there very quickly and evacuate patients using the old Possibly Original American Unless The Original Americans Were In Fact Muslims As Recently Alleged method of making a stretcher out of two poles and a blanket and dragging it behind a horse. Don't forget the horsie diaper to avoid wound contamination. Also, (GOD, I'll regret this) what's the particular advantage of having a nurse on the scene? Best, Dr. Grady. In a message dated 4/16/2004 11:49:14 PM Central Daylight Time, Etlaesium@... writes: Kathi, That is exactly what I am saying. STARFlight is primarily an EMS vehicle capable of responding to scenes and transporting the sick and injured. We utilize them as a first response method of getting a Paramedic (and a nurse) to the scene in an acceptable amount of time. If the patient does not warrant transport via helicopter, they hand off the patient to the ground ambulance just as we would to them if we were there first and the patient rated a helicopter transport. Mike Re: In a message dated 4/15/2004 11:04:47 PM Central Daylight Time, Etlaesium@... writes: In our case (A/TCEMS), we utilize STARFlight as a first response vehicle for scenes that are a certain distance to the responding ambulance. In these cases, it is more prevalent for STARFlight to hand off the patient to us. So, you're saying the helicopter is used as a first responder unit, then when the medic unit gets there they transfer care to you for transport? Interesting....(that's not a neg. or pos. interesting btw...just an interesting!) Never heard of that being done before! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Kathi, That is exactly what I am saying. STARFlight is primarily an EMS vehicle capable of responding to scenes and transporting the sick and injured. We utilize them as a first response method of getting a Paramedic (and a nurse) to the scene in an acceptable amount of time. If the patient does not warrant transport via helicopter, they hand off the patient to the ground ambulance just as we would to them if we were there first and the patient rated a helicopter transport. Mike Re: In a message dated 4/15/2004 11:04:47 PM Central Daylight Time, Etlaesium@... writes: In our case (A/TCEMS), we utilize STARFlight as a first response vehicle for scenes that are a certain distance to the responding ambulance. In these cases, it is more prevalent for STARFlight to hand off the patient to us. So, you're saying the helicopter is used as a first responder unit, then when the medic unit gets there they transfer care to you for transport? Interesting....(that's not a neg. or pos. interesting btw...just an interesting!) Never heard of that being done before! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 Mike wrote: " I am having trouble seeing that helicopters cause a negative impact to the patient. Maybe the study doesn't take into account the severity of the patients' conditions as much as they should?? I do think that some providers within the 15 mi. radius might request the whirly-bird for the " bad patient " . Any other thoughts here? " " Mike " I would have to give an educated guess that helicopter transport would be detrimental if there was a delay in getting the patient to a definitive care facility i.e. surgical intervention. If you are delaying ground transport for a helicopter evac and the patient definitely needs surgical interventions to prevent death then this is where the two transport options come into conflict. I mean to say that if ground transport would be faster than waiting for helicopter transport the patient is put into jeopardy (and shall we mention the word " LIABILITY " ) by delaying transport by ground. Being in an area that uses helicopter transport I have experienced this problem. My area does however use RSI protocols. There are only two interventions that I can think of in which the helo has an advantage over ground transport 1) Chest tube insertion, and a couple of extra drugs that might have an effect on patient outcome. Road conditions, terrain, distance, patient condition in relation to specifically needing surgical intervention, or other interventions not offered on ground transportation that would put the patient at risk for death if not implemented are all factors in use or non-use of the helicopter. Or should I say " should be in my opinion. " Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 Mike wrote: " I am having trouble seeing that helicopters cause a negative impact to the patient. Maybe the study doesn't take into account the severity of the patients' conditions as much as they should?? I do think that some providers within the 15 mi. radius might request the whirly-bird for the " bad patient " . Any other thoughts here? " " Mike " I would have to give an educated guess that helicopter transport would be detrimental if there was a delay in getting the patient to a definitive care facility i.e. surgical intervention. If you are delaying ground transport for a helicopter evac and the patient definitely needs surgical interventions to prevent death then this is where the two transport options come into conflict. I mean to say that if ground transport would be faster than waiting for helicopter transport the patient is put into jeopardy (and shall we mention the word " LIABILITY " ) by delaying transport by ground. Being in an area that uses helicopter transport I have experienced this problem. My area does however use RSI protocols. There are only two interventions that I can think of in which the helo has an advantage over ground transport 1) Chest tube insertion, and a couple of extra drugs that might have an effect on patient outcome. Road conditions, terrain, distance, patient condition in relation to specifically needing surgical intervention, or other interventions not offered on ground transportation that would put the patient at risk for death if not implemented are all factors in use or non-use of the helicopter. Or should I say " should be in my opinion. " Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 Oddly enough, I think this is a great idea, but my boss won't go for it here in rural South Texas........... http://www.ci.daytona-beach.fl.us/fire/motor_medic.htm Maybe I should apply with Daytona Beach Fire...... Mike >>From: wegandy1938@... >>Hmmm. If the problem is just getting a paramedic to the scene in an >>acceptable amount of time, why not use medics on motorcycles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2004 Report Share Posted April 17, 2004 > From: wegandy1938@... > Oh, I know they have a place. I've spent many hours in them. But all in > all they're over used. Amen > I know crews who call them because they don't want to be > involved in the transport of a critical patient for fear they'll screw up, > or they're just too lazy to cowboy up to what needs to be done. Amen > But really, there is not much evidence for helo use most of the time. And Amen...... Well said Gene, as I said in a previous post, there is no magic medicine in the air, no mojo to shake at 750 ft, we don't do 'special' CPR or have 'extra special' meds. It's the same stuff that is used on the ground. Our training may have been more extensive, and intensive, but that's a training issue for your department to handle. If you are waiting on the ground for an air crew to arrive, you are wasting time. Mike 'Tater Salad' Hatfield EMT-P " I had the right to remain silent......but I did not have the ability. " Mark your calendars now!!! EMStock 2004!!! Booming Midlothian, Texas!!! May 21-23, 2004!!! www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 I volunteer for horseback medic. GG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 Gene, For Austin, I support the use of motorcycles as first response vehicles. There was a plan in the mix to introduce them, but it really hasn't gone anywhere. And, though you were being facetious, I also support horseback medics for the downtown area that the bike medics routinely patrol. This would be an awesome PR tool as much as it would be an efficient means of navigating through a raucous crowd. Mike Re: In a message dated 4/15/2004 11:04:47 PM Central Daylight Time, Etlaesium@... writes: In our case (A/TCEMS), we utilize STARFlight as a first response vehicle for scenes that are a certain distance to the responding ambulance. In these cases, it is more prevalent for STARFlight to hand off the patient to us. So, you're saying the helicopter is used as a first responder unit, then when the medic unit gets there they transfer care to you for transport? Interesting....(that's not a neg. or pos. interesting btw...just an interesting!) Never heard of that being done before! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Mike I volunteer for the Motorcycles I know some cities are doing this do you know who I do know that the UK and the Aussies have been doing this for years I looked in to trying to set up an internship over in the UK with the motormedics as they are called they require the medics to take a Police motorcycle course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Mike I volunteer for the Motorcycles I know some cities are doing this do you know who I do know that the UK and the Aussies have been doing this for years I looked in to trying to set up an internship over in the UK with the motormedics as they are called they require the medics to take a Police motorcycle course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Mike I volunteer for the Motorcycles I know some cities are doing this do you know who I do know that the UK and the Aussies have been doing this for years I looked in to trying to set up an internship over in the UK with the motormedics as they are called they require the medics to take a Police motorcycle course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Sometime a few years back, New Your City used Mopeds for first response ion crowded down town area. Re: > Mike I volunteer for the Motorcycles I know some cities are doing this do you > know who I do know that the UK and the Aussies have been doing this for years > > I looked in to trying to set up an internship over in the UK with the > motormedics > as they are called they require the medics to take a Police motorcycle course > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Sometime a few years back, New Your City used Mopeds for first response ion crowded down town area. Re: > Mike I volunteer for the Motorcycles I know some cities are doing this do you > know who I do know that the UK and the Aussies have been doing this for years > > I looked in to trying to set up an internship over in the UK with the > motormedics > as they are called they require the medics to take a Police motorcycle course > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 Sometime a few years back, New Your City used Mopeds for first response ion crowded down town area. Re: > Mike I volunteer for the Motorcycles I know some cities are doing this do you > know who I do know that the UK and the Aussies have been doing this for years > > I looked in to trying to set up an internship over in the UK with the > motormedics > as they are called they require the medics to take a Police motorcycle course > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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