Guest guest Posted May 1, 2004 Report Share Posted May 1, 2004 , According to vs. Woman's Hospital of Texas, 97 F.3d810 (5th Cir., 1996), if your service did not *physically* test your pregnant staff member to ensure that they could lift 150lbs PRIOR to them becoming pregnant, then you cannot force them out on leave under the assumption that they cannot lift 150lbs during pregnancy, even if the Doctor says they can not lift such an amount during pregnancy. That's interesting, so just because we have a statement in our SOP's that says that each staff member must be able to lift 150lbs, if we didn't actually test them for it, and see that they could do it, it doesn't mean squat. The Doc is making an assumption based upon what the patient tells them, do you believe that an OB/GYN is aware of the physical stresses that we are put through, not necessarily every day, but on a fairly routine basis? Mike > It is the preg employee who carries the liability. Her dr HAS to sign off > that she is cleared to lift 150lbs (which is a requirement for all our field > staff). Without this the employee doesn't work. If he/she tells her she can > work and she gets injured, assuming she was doing her job as she was suppose > to, then it is between her and her doc. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Mike, Come to my hiring process...if you can't lift...you go home Remember, I support women being allowed to work as long as they want, or as short as they want. We are only here because of the strength of women. If it was up to the guys, we would have all died out generations ago...trust me I'm way too weak to carry all that weight around for 9 months!!!! Interesting discussion though.... Re: Preg/EMS > , > > According to vs. Woman's Hospital of Texas, 97 F.3d810 (5th Cir., > 1996), if your service did not *physically* test your pregnant staff member > to ensure that they could lift 150lbs PRIOR to them becoming pregnant, then > you cannot force them out on leave under the assumption that they cannot > lift 150lbs during pregnancy, even if the Doctor says they can not lift such > an amount during pregnancy. > > That's interesting, so just because we have a statement in our SOP's that > says that each staff member must be able to lift 150lbs, if we didn't > actually test them for it, and see that they could do it, it doesn't mean > squat. > > The Doc is making an assumption based upon what the patient tells them, do > you believe that an OB/GYN is aware of the physical stresses that we are put > through, not necessarily every day, but on a fairly routine basis? > > Mike > > > > > > > > It is the preg employee who carries the liability. Her dr HAS to sign off > > that she is cleared to lift 150lbs (which is a requirement for all our > field > > staff). Without this the employee doesn't work. If he/she tells her she > can > > work and she gets injured, assuming she was doing her job as she was > suppose > > to, then it is between her and her doc. > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Mike, Come to my hiring process...if you can't lift...you go home Remember, I support women being allowed to work as long as they want, or as short as they want. We are only here because of the strength of women. If it was up to the guys, we would have all died out generations ago...trust me I'm way too weak to carry all that weight around for 9 months!!!! Interesting discussion though.... Re: Preg/EMS > , > > According to vs. Woman's Hospital of Texas, 97 F.3d810 (5th Cir., > 1996), if your service did not *physically* test your pregnant staff member > to ensure that they could lift 150lbs PRIOR to them becoming pregnant, then > you cannot force them out on leave under the assumption that they cannot > lift 150lbs during pregnancy, even if the Doctor says they can not lift such > an amount during pregnancy. > > That's interesting, so just because we have a statement in our SOP's that > says that each staff member must be able to lift 150lbs, if we didn't > actually test them for it, and see that they could do it, it doesn't mean > squat. > > The Doc is making an assumption based upon what the patient tells them, do > you believe that an OB/GYN is aware of the physical stresses that we are put > through, not necessarily every day, but on a fairly routine basis? > > Mike > > > > > > > > It is the preg employee who carries the liability. Her dr HAS to sign off > > that she is cleared to lift 150lbs (which is a requirement for all our > field > > staff). Without this the employee doesn't work. If he/she tells her she > can > > work and she gets injured, assuming she was doing her job as she was > suppose > > to, then it is between her and her doc. > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Mike, Come to my hiring process...if you can't lift...you go home Remember, I support women being allowed to work as long as they want, or as short as they want. We are only here because of the strength of women. If it was up to the guys, we would have all died out generations ago...trust me I'm way too weak to carry all that weight around for 9 months!!!! Interesting discussion though.... Re: Preg/EMS > , > > According to vs. Woman's Hospital of Texas, 97 F.3d810 (5th Cir., > 1996), if your service did not *physically* test your pregnant staff member > to ensure that they could lift 150lbs PRIOR to them becoming pregnant, then > you cannot force them out on leave under the assumption that they cannot > lift 150lbs during pregnancy, even if the Doctor says they can not lift such > an amount during pregnancy. > > That's interesting, so just because we have a statement in our SOP's that > says that each staff member must be able to lift 150lbs, if we didn't > actually test them for it, and see that they could do it, it doesn't mean > squat. > > The Doc is making an assumption based upon what the patient tells them, do > you believe that an OB/GYN is aware of the physical stresses that we are put > through, not necessarily every day, but on a fairly routine basis? > > Mike > > > > > > > > It is the preg employee who carries the liability. Her dr HAS to sign off > > that she is cleared to lift 150lbs (which is a requirement for all our > field > > staff). Without this the employee doesn't work. If he/she tells her she > can > > work and she gets injured, assuming she was doing her job as she was > suppose > > to, then it is between her and her doc. > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Come to my hiring process...if you can't lift...you go home How do you test this? Dead weight? Stretcher with a partner? Thanks! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Come to my hiring process...if you can't lift...you go home How do you test this? Dead weight? Stretcher with a partner? Thanks! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Come to my hiring process...if you can't lift...you go home How do you test this? Dead weight? Stretcher with a partner? Thanks! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 I agree with stretcher with a partner, dead weight however is a different story. Just because I can't lift like an Olympic athlete doesn't mean I can't load a stretcher with a patient or carry a back board. I'm a firm believer in my uterus staying where it should be and no one having to suffer from bad backs and slipped discs by the age of 25. Most protocols I've seen state that if the pt weighs over 275 lbs, you can call for back up, or lift assist (and first responders and FF's are GREAT about helping) The last time I checked, half of 275 was 137.5. Hell, the FD entrance test here requires that you DRAG a 180 lb dummy. That's DRAGGING. Does any of this truly make sense? Why would you deny a smart medic who's pt care is impeccable a job because they can't lift 150-180 pound anvil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 I agree with stretcher with a partner, dead weight however is a different story. Just because I can't lift like an Olympic athlete doesn't mean I can't load a stretcher with a patient or carry a back board. I'm a firm believer in my uterus staying where it should be and no one having to suffer from bad backs and slipped discs by the age of 25. Most protocols I've seen state that if the pt weighs over 275 lbs, you can call for back up, or lift assist (and first responders and FF's are GREAT about helping) The last time I checked, half of 275 was 137.5. Hell, the FD entrance test here requires that you DRAG a 180 lb dummy. That's DRAGGING. Does any of this truly make sense? Why would you deny a smart medic who's pt care is impeccable a job because they can't lift 150-180 pound anvil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 I agree with stretcher with a partner, dead weight however is a different story. Just because I can't lift like an Olympic athlete doesn't mean I can't load a stretcher with a patient or carry a back board. I'm a firm believer in my uterus staying where it should be and no one having to suffer from bad backs and slipped discs by the age of 25. Most protocols I've seen state that if the pt weighs over 275 lbs, you can call for back up, or lift assist (and first responders and FF's are GREAT about helping) The last time I checked, half of 275 was 137.5. Hell, the FD entrance test here requires that you DRAG a 180 lb dummy. That's DRAGGING. Does any of this truly make sense? Why would you deny a smart medic who's pt care is impeccable a job because they can't lift 150-180 pound anvil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Different services have different scenarios for lifting. I have in the past, had to lift 150lb dummies from the floor to a chair, from the chair to a bed, from the bed to a backboard, then with a partner carry the backboard down two flights of stairs, across a parking lot filled with obstacles, and into a unit, all within an allotted time frame. I know a lot of females that beat my time, but I'm not so sure they could complete the exact same task pregnant. W. Hatfield EMT-P " Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes " Mark your calendars now!!! EMStock 2004!!! Booming Midlothian, Texas!!! May 21-23, 2004!!! www.EMStock.com From: T68b@... Come to my hiring process...if you can't lift...you go home How do you test this? Dead weight? Stretcher with a partner? Thanks! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Different services have different scenarios for lifting. I have in the past, had to lift 150lb dummies from the floor to a chair, from the chair to a bed, from the bed to a backboard, then with a partner carry the backboard down two flights of stairs, across a parking lot filled with obstacles, and into a unit, all within an allotted time frame. I know a lot of females that beat my time, but I'm not so sure they could complete the exact same task pregnant. W. Hatfield EMT-P " Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes " Mark your calendars now!!! EMStock 2004!!! Booming Midlothian, Texas!!! May 21-23, 2004!!! www.EMStock.com From: T68b@... Come to my hiring process...if you can't lift...you go home How do you test this? Dead weight? Stretcher with a partner? Thanks! Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 On reviewing my email last night...in the middle of a long shift, some hind sight editing. The manikin we use weights 150lbs total. The applicants lift 1/2 of the weight during the process. I apologize for the confusion. I still stand by that it should be up to the employee as to whether or not she chooses to continue working and/or how far into it she works. Re: Preg/EMS > I agree with stretcher with a partner, dead weight however is a different > story. Just because I can't lift like an Olympic athlete doesn't mean I can't > load a stretcher with a patient or carry a back board. I'm a firm believer in my > uterus staying where it should be and no one having to suffer from bad backs > and slipped discs by the age of 25. Most protocols I've seen state that if the > pt weighs over 275 lbs, you can call for back up, or lift assist (and first > responders and FF's are GREAT about helping) The last time I checked, half of > 275 was 137.5. Hell, the FD entrance test here requires that you DRAG a 180 lb > dummy. That's DRAGGING. Does any of this truly make sense? Why would you deny a > smart medic who's pt care is impeccable a job because they can't lift 150-180 > pound anvil? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 On reviewing my email last night...in the middle of a long shift, some hind sight editing. The manikin we use weights 150lbs total. The applicants lift 1/2 of the weight during the process. I apologize for the confusion. I still stand by that it should be up to the employee as to whether or not she chooses to continue working and/or how far into it she works. Re: Preg/EMS > I agree with stretcher with a partner, dead weight however is a different > story. Just because I can't lift like an Olympic athlete doesn't mean I can't > load a stretcher with a patient or carry a back board. I'm a firm believer in my > uterus staying where it should be and no one having to suffer from bad backs > and slipped discs by the age of 25. Most protocols I've seen state that if the > pt weighs over 275 lbs, you can call for back up, or lift assist (and first > responders and FF's are GREAT about helping) The last time I checked, half of > 275 was 137.5. Hell, the FD entrance test here requires that you DRAG a 180 lb > dummy. That's DRAGGING. Does any of this truly make sense? Why would you deny a > smart medic who's pt care is impeccable a job because they can't lift 150-180 > pound anvil? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 On reviewing my email last night...in the middle of a long shift, some hind sight editing. The manikin we use weights 150lbs total. The applicants lift 1/2 of the weight during the process. I apologize for the confusion. I still stand by that it should be up to the employee as to whether or not she chooses to continue working and/or how far into it she works. Re: Preg/EMS > I agree with stretcher with a partner, dead weight however is a different > story. Just because I can't lift like an Olympic athlete doesn't mean I can't > load a stretcher with a patient or carry a back board. I'm a firm believer in my > uterus staying where it should be and no one having to suffer from bad backs > and slipped discs by the age of 25. Most protocols I've seen state that if the > pt weighs over 275 lbs, you can call for back up, or lift assist (and first > responders and FF's are GREAT about helping) The last time I checked, half of > 275 was 137.5. Hell, the FD entrance test here requires that you DRAG a 180 lb > dummy. That's DRAGGING. Does any of this truly make sense? Why would you deny a > smart medic who's pt care is impeccable a job because they can't lift 150-180 > pound anvil? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 The problem is companies (both private and public) must think about being sued if someone gets injured while performing their duties. Oh yes, I have heard " I will not sue if I am injured, I know what I can and can't do. " Sadly this can transform into " I was injured and it is the companies fault, they didn't tell me I was overdoing it. " This does not just relate to pregnancies. It also relates to other personnel who suffer injuries. That is why some companies require a physical agility portion of an interview. I am not meaning to say greed or meanness drive this behavior. It is survival. When monies are not there the creditors still call. Good Intentions are put on the back burner when a families' survival is at stake. This is what drives the employer as well. Money for insurance agencies seem to grow on trees, an employers ability to pay the insurance does not. Survival. Interesting how animalistic we become even though we are educated? Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 I have been meaning to comment on this thread as well. If you are going to do anything with or to a pregnant employee your agency had better be prepared to show that it treats everyone (male and female) with any type of off-duty injuries/illnesses the exact same way. If not, you are discriminating and are at risk of legal action. The courts view pregnancy as nothing more and nothing less than they would view an off-duty broken ankle or illness. This also goes vice-versa. If you provide " light-duty " for your employee who fell off the roof of their house hanging Christmas lights and fx their ankle, you have to provide light duty for the pregnant employee IF their doctor tells them they can no longer work the streets. And, if you provide light duty for the pregnant employee IF their doctor takes them off street duty you MUST provide it for the fx ankle as well. This is why you see many organizations not providing light duty for anyone except those injured on the job. It can get messy in a hurry and with the huge increases in employment law liability; many places are refusing to accept the risk. And the thread about pulling employees off the unit for no documented reason other than " they are pregnant " is like advertising your esophageal intubations on a billboard outside your headquarters. If you feel you need to do this for some type of protection, go ahead. With the huge number of lawyers in our society...there is never enough work to keep them all busy. Be careful in how you " perceive " things in the workplace...anytime you make any " special " exceptions for anyone you are incurring risk of legal repercussions. Dudley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 This whole thread started with " was a pregnant employee able to accomplish her job just as well in her 9th month as she could before she got pregnant? " , and " at what point do you pull her from the truck " . Accomplishing her job is more than just pushing drugs and giving oxygen, it includes extrication of the injured, yada yada yada. If you had a lift test when they were hired, and they were required to lift 150 lbs and accomplished it, but were no longer able to pass the same lift test pregnant, then you can put them on involuntary medical leave. That's a proven fact. The employer has a right to a release from the OB/GYN doc saying that they are cleared to lift 150 lbs. No release, no work. As far as pregnant employees being treated the same as off the job injuries, the courts view pregnancy different than off the job injuries, and provide more protection from discrimination for the pregnant employee. They don't get treated the same. No one is trying to shaft the pregnant employee, but if the employee is no longer able to accomplish the same job that they were hired to do, why would you not pull them from the truck? No different than any other employee who can no longer function in accordance with their job requirements. > I have been meaning to comment on this thread as well. If you are going to do anything with or to a pregnant employee your agency had better be prepared to show that it treats everyone (male and female) with any type of off-duty injuries/illnesses the exact same way. If not, you are discriminating and are at risk of legal action. > > The courts view pregnancy as nothing more and nothing less than they would view an off-duty broken ankle or illness. This also goes vice-versa. If you provide " light-duty " for your employee who fell off the roof of their house hanging Christmas lights and fx their ankle, you have to provide light duty for the pregnant employee IF their doctor tells them they can no longer work the streets. And, if you provide light duty for the pregnant employee IF their doctor takes them off street duty you MUST provide it for the fx ankle as well. > > This is why you see many organizations not providing light duty for anyone except those injured on the job. It can get messy in a hurry and with the huge increases in employment law liability; many places are refusing to accept the risk. > > And the thread about pulling employees off the unit for no documented reason other than " they are pregnant " is like advertising your esophageal intubations on a billboard outside your headquarters. If you feel you need to do this for some type of protection, go ahead. With the huge number of lawyers in our society...there is never enough work to keep them all busy. > > Be careful in how you " perceive " things in the workplace...anytime you make any " special " exceptions for anyone you are incurring risk of legal repercussions. > > Dudley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2004 Report Share Posted May 7, 2004 My point is almost like yours...but if you are going to give a lift test to a pregnant employee because she is pregnant...you would have to test others when you become aware of illnesses/injuries that " could " affect their ability to do the job. My point is you cannot pull people off an ambulance because they are pregnant unless you have a bona fide reason to (such as doctor release, lift test, etc) and not do the same for other illnesses/injuries. The only point I am making is that we cannot use supposition and conjecture to pull pregnant employees off the unit...you need to have policies, documentation, and plans that cover ALL illnesses and injuries...not just pregnancy. Dudley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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