Gaslighting

[Guest guest]

helping out...nada and fada always seem to forget all the timea we've helped

them...we have gone up there to paint their house, we have gone up there to

help them through surgery, we have gone up there to bring them a trailer

full of wood to burn, we have gone up there to participate in awards

ceremonies ( of course when I'd get one in school, we lived 3 blocks from

the school and they couldnt be bothered...) we've gone up there to help

paint the inside of their house, to do hour repairs, etc...but they never

seem to remember any of thise, always claiming we never have done anything

for them...they always remember the very few times the golden child helped

them out...

Jackie

What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from nada?

[Guest guest]

, I understand what you are saying. My BPD fada died 20 years ago and

quite honestly lately I am willing to admit I have his corn ball sense of humor.

Also, I think, wow he would turn over in his grave if he knew how in debt nada

and sada are. I know it's weird but some part of my inner being now tells me he

is looking down at me and saying wow I should of loved her more, she has really

turned out pretty good. The things we tell ourselves to heal!!!

When I started grieving the nada I had fooled myself into believing I had it was

a whole other layer to uncover. Still working on that one!

> > > >

> > > > My nada bawled me out one time because she claimed she hadn't seen me

even once in six months. In reality I had seen her probably a dozen or more

times in six months including, inviting her to my 30th birthday to which she

attended and ruined (I said nothing), I took her out for her birthday including

a fancy dinner, flowers, gift, card, etc. I went shopping with her, she came to

gatherings with my friends, I had dinner at her house, etc, etc. There was

many, many times I saw her.

> > > >

> > > > When I told my friend what nada accused me of my friend exclaimed " I

have even seen your mom lot's in six months! " So there's no way any sane person

could believe nada's story, it was so rediculous.

> > > >

> > > > After that I went extreme LC because I figured if nada already believes

that I don't make time for her when I have bent over backwards entertaining her

then forget it. If LC is already reality for her then why should I bother? I

can't make her see reality anyway, so LC it is. Done and done.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks nada.

> > > >

> > > > P.S. Oddly enough now that LC is actual reality for her she doesn't

complain to me that I don't see her. There's only talk behind my back of how

" thinks she's too good for her family " ..... gossip tidbits passed along

to me by my FOO to gaslight me some more. If only they knew how little I really

care now.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,I had an ah ha moment reading your post,too.Or validation for something

I'd suspected about nada--or knew I guess,but it seemed more like a

suspicion.I'm glad you got something out of my post and I think you're right:

your sibling roles were there to boost up your mother's self image.

What you said about your sister being the sweet,dependent little girl who

gave your mom a *mother* role...whoa...for one thing,nada always always kept

stating her desire to have a third child--AND--in her spoken fantasies about

having this third child,she always maintained that it would be a girl.She had

even picked out a name: a variation on her maiden name--which I've always

thought of as so narcissistic,like she wanted to have a mini-me.But after

reading your post,I think it was more that this fantasy little girl was supposed

to shore up nada's self image,hence why she intended to attach that piece of

herself to the baby by naming it after her.

She could be SO insenstive when speaking of her desire to have this

third baby and it made me feel like the hoped for baby girl was meant to be a

replacement for me,the defective model.

But thinking about the sibling roles in your family,I suddenly see

that something/someone was missing.My brother was the all good/golden.I wasn't

the lost child--I was the all bad--but I was also the little adult and very

independent and conscientious.I was forced so many times even when I was little

to be the responsible one for all of them.And into adulthood--like when the

chips were down,who did they call? Me.Suddenly I wasn't so rotten after

all,funny how I could be depended upon (while never being respected at exactly

the same time).

The little girl who could make nada a mother was missing from the

family equation.It makes so much sense.I am sure that in your case what you said

about your sister is exactly what it was.I could never make her a mother because

I *was* the mother.My brother was too much of a little god in a way to be her

" baby " : he was more of an idol.

At one point,when I was five,nada wanted to adopt a mildly mentally

retarded two year old girl.Long story and it never happened,but at the time when

she was plotting this,I did feel like if it went through I'd become

invisible.Maybe not even the all bad scapegoat anymore,but lost and only

referred to when needed to fill the role of The Responsible One.I found the very

idea unbearable--as awful as being the all bad was--and I was the one who threw

a wrench into the works by tipping the bio mom off to nada's plans.

I have alot of sympathy for you for being that middle,lost child.I

know I write alot about my own horrors on this board but I can't even imagine

how painful that must have been for you.I do have an idea,though,of what that

is...To be honest,I've hesitated a bit bringing this up because the only way I

can address it is through yet another (hopefuly not too boring lol) story from

my own experience.But for what it's worth,my ex wife was the middle lost child

in her family and the way she continued to suffer from that into adulthood

seemed to me in some ways even worse than the more clear cut alienation I felt

from my own family and from myself from having grown up as the all bad.Like the

pain was harder for her to access because it was more subtle (I mean,unlike mine

that had involved really obvious viciousness directed right at me

personally)--and also that her pain was almost more all pervasive than mine

because it just wasn't as upfront and cutting,sharp,personal...like her pain got

lost along with her...

She was the middle of three girls: the oldest was the golden child

and the youngest was the sweet,helpless little baby.Her parents had hoped for a

boy when she was born and her mother hadn't even bothered to pick out a girl's

name,this kind of magical thinking like not having a girl's name would *make*

her be a boy.Her mother was a Waif/Hermit nada.So,when she was born,her mother

just picked out popular girl's name at random.She had gone to some trouble

finding just the right names for her sisters,choosing them from books she had

loved.Her sisters both had these unique literary names and she had a

common,everyday name.

And when her father was told his wife had given birth to another

girl,he stormed out of the hospital and refused to visit her mother,only

returning to collect them when they were discharged.

Both of her sisters were blonde like her mother and she was dark

haired like her father.Her father believed that only blondes are attractive--so

although ironically my ex wife was in fact the prettiest of the three girls,her

beauty was invisible to her father simply because she wasn't a blonde.

She grew up feeling ugly even though she was the best looking

one--something she never got over.She felt like she could never measure up to

her older sister who was treated like a super star and her little sister who was

fawned over for being little and cute.She had no place to *be* in that family

except as the caretaker.

Her older sister got to go off and have adventures and her little sister

was allowed to be dependent and helpless.My ex wife was the one who got stuck

with the " job " of tending to her Waif nada when she had a crisis or staying with

her when she was in Hermit mode.She was also expected to be responsible for the

baby sister when nada was incapacitated.

So I was struck by what you said about being devastated when you had to

go to school.My ex wife had mentioned the same exact thing,like she didn't know

what to do or how to be if she had to leave her mother.She HATED going to

school.Me,I was delighted to skip off to nursery school,like thank god,free at

last!!!! And believe me,I didn't look back.

My ex wife was very intelligent and loved to read and study things,so

her loathing of school wasn't because she had no interest in learning.It was the

leaving her mother;the being alone outside of her caretaker role.It has got to

be really surreal and confusing to be both a caretaker and invisible at the same

time.Maybe that is why you didn't get off the bus that day: like a protest you

couldn't even articulate to yourself because your role hadn't ever been clearly

defined but felt so compelling...and like you needed somehow to have your nada

worry about where you were since you weren't actually anywhere...which would

feel reasonably like being in a trance.

My ex wife was kind of in a trance all the time,like disconnected from

herself.She consciously resented her older sister and saw her as arrogant.She

worried too much about her younger sister,needed to check in with her,like she

couldn't help it.She'd have to force herself not to do that sometimes.

She referred to her job as " my attempt to justify my

existence " --although she was successful,she never believed it.Other peoples'

professional compliments hurt her because she was sure they weren't merited--she

knew she hadn't really done enough,done it just right;that she could never do

enough.Or if *she* was the one that had accomplished something,it was lacking

somehow because it was her.

Her hugest fear with us was that I'd discover her " flaws " and be so

disillusioned,I'd leave her on the spot.I tried so many times to tell her that I

*did* see her flaws and was ok with them,it was just that I chose to focus on

what I truly liked about her.

She never believed me.She insisted that I only idealized her.I felt at

the time and still do now that this was directly related to her having been the

lost child in her family.Like,if I am less than in any way in your estimation,I

will be lost to you.

I had to *pry* any problems out of her.She'd say things like, " I have

no reason really to be so down,I'm just whining...I'll get over it... " About

things that she REALLY had reason to be upset about,like her father being an

a-hole to her.Or she'd be angry about it but not trust me enough to really talk

it out with me.Like she feared I'd tell her to knock it off,when actually I

thought she had every reason to be angry.Or down.

I could tell her that again and again and still had to pry it out of

her.

Her formative experience had been having no one to go to--and sort of

no real " inner sanctum " of any substance to withdraw to.She didn't know how she

was supposed to feel about stuff sometimes and so she'd tell herself how she

" should " feel.Nobody had ever helped her to know how *she* felt when she was

growing up.And the discovery of her own feelings occurred in this vaccuum with

no meaningful feedback,ever.She told me once that as a child she had really

identified with Caspar the friendly ghost.

Her lost child legacy was serious and affected her very deeply.She

needed to find her way back to herself somehow and unfortunately I wasn't able

to help her do that.I'm not bitter about our relationship,just sad for what it

might have been but couldn't be at the time (which also has bearing on my own

issues: it takes two to tango,right).All I'd want to know today is that she is

happy--and truly fulfilled--that would be enough.And it would sort of be a

vindication of both of us...that sounds odd I guess but I don't know how else to

describe it: a vindication of our individual sufferings,that we both found some

way back to ourselves,even if not together...

>

> Wow, ,

> Reading this gave me one of those 'ah ha's where I think maybe I realized that

the reason each of us kids in my family had these seemingly stuck-in-place

behaviors and roles was to boost up my mother's self image. It's not that we

were *great* achievers but more having my brother being 'golden' she could

ignore his obvious flaws (because in her mind, her friend's kids were

super-achievers and we should be more like that, and not talk back, etc etc; of

course those kids were beaten and punished if they didn't do what was expected).

>

> If my sister could be the sweet little girl, dependent on my mom, then that

could keep my mom in that *mother* role; and me being independent and

conscientious could let her have a responsible daughter she could always depend

on. Voila! A well put together family. That could maybe hide the realities.

I was lonely, bullied (including by my brother) and depressed. My sister was

not growing up properly with the ability to learn from her mistakes, and my

brother was self involved and could not ultimately inter-relate say with a woman

with whom he could marry. (or stay married to).

>

> This is why my mom didn't want to hear anything negative, any fighting, any

problems. Nothing. But....it sort of delineated our personalities and kept us

away from each other. Relationships that could have grown over the years

(though I was close to my sister after our teen years). And I am certainly not

leaving my father out of this.

> I'm going to have to think about this for awhile to understand what it means

to me now.

>

> What you said about the Limoges....that made me gasp.

> And the 'not caring anymore'~ sometimes I make myself hard and 'don't care'

But I think, no, *know* that it is just a fragile cover to caring so much.

> thanks for your insights

> ~patricia

>

>

[Guest guest]

My sister is doing this right now. The whole, " But we never doubted mom

loved us " kind of thing. Well, I actually think my mother was incapable of

loving anyone more than herself. My sister said when we were little my mother

used to do decapage with us. The second she said it, I tried to remember. I

do not remember that. I remember 1 birthday party when I was about 5 (6?)

and ironically my sister remembers that same party for me but doesn't

remember ever having any of her own or me having any others.

However, even that is distorted. My birthday is 6 days before Christmas and

my mother invited Santa. Apparently I screamed bloody murder and hid in

the bathroom. This was not to say my mother comforted me. Oh, no. She LAUGHED

at me and for years talked about how 'ridiculous' and 'embarrassing' it

was because apparently I cried until I threw up.

I was a very easily spooked child. My father was a policeman and I was

never protected from the bad side of life. I was also being sexually abused by

an uncle. At way too young I knew about rapes, murders, break-ins,

robberies, shootings, etc. I was not shielded from anything. My mother was vivid

in her descriptions of things. I remember one time we were in the grocery

store at night and my mother went to get the manager of the store because

she said a man was following her and saying things about what he was going to

do to her under his breath. I was terrified. She then went an alternate

route home, claiming the man was following us. I was hysterical and she was

never comforting to me in any way.

I think more than anything, I remember the lack of emotional security, lack

of love, lack of attention, lack of respect.....I never felt secure and

then I was laughed at and belittled because I was so spooky and insecure.

[Guest guest]

oh, yes, my fada always said this too, whenever I complained to him about

nadas unacceptable behavior.. His only response was " you know your mother

loves you " yes,by they way she treats me !! and " she's always done a lot

for you " oh yeah ?? like what ???

Jackie

Carol,yes,I've had that too: being told by fada (in my case the non BPD) how

much nada (the BPD) loved me as if *none* of the abuse and nastiness ever

existed.Because to admit at all that *any* of it might have been wrong would

be the same as saying nada was flawed.Which was something that could never

even be suggested--instead it was a blind insistence in the opposite

direction: that she was a loving mother.

I know what you mean about how damaging it is.Growing up,I thought

of fada as the " sane " one since in contrast to nada,it seemed like he was.It

wasn't until I was an adult that I understood he was sick,too.But during

those formative years,I was getting pummelled with that denial of reality

constantly by him and although of course our relationship with a mother is

different from our relationship with a father,I identified more with

fada--so having the reality of my experience denied by the parent I

identified with and thought of as the " sane one " (whose perceptions were

more valid to me than nada's) was incredibly damaging.Weirdly,I often felt

so sorry for fada--this deep strange sympathy--instead of feeling compassion

for myself.

And what you said about gift giving out of the goodness of your

heart vs doing something because it is our duty or required of us really

made me think.So thank you for bringing that up! That is also something I

had noticed that seemed to make no sense at all: why would they feel so

threatened by me just being nice simply because I wanted to be? Because,like

you said,then for example my golden brother might seem flawed.He could never

be punished for anything when we were growing up--it was like them having to

punish him at all would have been the same as saying he was wrong and since

he was golden,he couldn't ever be wrong.And I couldn't ever be in any way

better than him--or nicer or whatever good thing--because that might make

*him* less golden.Both of my parents were very fixated on me being

dutiful/doing my duty to them,but my brother always got a pass.And any

little thing he did do for them was praised to the skies like it was manna

from heaven.

It helps to understand the dynamics,although that doesn't make them

any less bizarre and sick.So many layers of damage to take stock of...

[Guest guest]

, this is so sad. I think it is actually pretty normal for a child that

age to be afraid of Santa. I think nadas particularly enjoy the superiority

they feel over children. They seem to enjoy it when their child is frightened

or upset over something that *they* (as grown adults!) would not be frightened

or upset over. Your nada's treatment of you sounds *so very much* like my nada.

Deanna

>

> My sister is doing this right now. The whole, " But we never doubted mom

> loved us " kind of thing. Well, I actually think my mother was incapable of

> loving anyone more than herself. My sister said when we were little my mother

> used to do decapage with us. The second she said it, I tried to remember. I

> do not remember that. I remember 1 birthday party when I was about 5 (6?)

> and ironically my sister remembers that same party for me but doesn't

> remember ever having any of her own or me having any others.

>

> However, even that is distorted. My birthday is 6 days before Christmas and

> my mother invited Santa. Apparently I screamed bloody murder and hid in

> the bathroom. This was not to say my mother comforted me. Oh, no. She LAUGHED

> at me and for years talked about how 'ridiculous' and 'embarrassing' it

> was because apparently I cried until I threw up.

>

> I was a very easily spooked child. My father was a policeman and I was

> never protected from the bad side of life. I was also being sexually abused

by

> an uncle. At way too young I knew about rapes, murders, break-ins,

> robberies, shootings, etc. I was not shielded from anything. My mother was

vivid

> in her descriptions of things. I remember one time we were in the grocery

> store at night and my mother went to get the manager of the store because

> she said a man was following her and saying things about what he was going to

> do to her under his breath. I was terrified. She then went an alternate

> route home, claiming the man was following us. I was hysterical and she was

> never comforting to me in any way.

>

> I think more than anything, I remember the lack of emotional security, lack

> of love, lack of attention, lack of respect.....I never felt secure and

> then I was laughed at and belittled because I was so spooky and insecure.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well Hello, Dolly,

( Sorry couldnt resist. My only excuse is I m a musician. Everything

triggers a song for me. )

Gaslighting is a term taken from an old B and W movie of the same name.

A psycho husband , for nefarious reasons, was trying to convince his

wife, poor Ingrid Bergman, that she was insane, causing her to doubt her

grasp of reality. He would move or hide things, cause noises she couldn

t explain, all the while telling her she had not really seen what she

knew she had. One of the things he did, hence the name for the movie,

was adjust the intensity of the old gas lights in the house, so they

would dim or brighten for no good reason, and she would notice, but he

would play , no , no, they were the same all evening. Are you feeling

alright dear?

So in practical application here, it is the BP trait of revising a

memory. They will sometimes remember something that you also remember,

but with details so drastically altered, ( usually to make them appear

either more of a victim or more of a hero, but never to blame) or not

remember at all something you vividly do remember, or remember in detail

something that you are abundantly sure is not true. It tends to make us

doubt our own memory and reality, until we figure out that is what they

do, and rely on our own senses and memories.

Doug

> >

> > What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from

nada?

> >

> >

> > Mine were

> >

> > Money. Somehow nada could never recall anytime I gave her money.

> >

> > She took my dad and uncle to court over money she supposedly didnt

get in child support. My uncle had paid her out of the business that

they ran together. Nada insisted that it was her pay from working there.

Problem? She never worked there a day. I would know, because I worked

there. But she became convinced that she had recieved those checks as a

salary. She got really angry at the judge when he called her a liar.

> >

> > She was in nursing school while I was in high school and dropped

out. We never did find out why. But her story for a while was that it

was so I could get a cap and gown for graduation. That was nonsense,

because I was working and could pay for it myself, and my dad or any of

several uncles would have given me the money had I asked. When I argued

that story with her, it began to change, and then it became that she

dropped out to get a job and keep me from quitting high school.

> > Problem? After she dropped out , she didnt get a job until long

after I was gone and in the Navy. Also, I never seriously considered

dropping out, but did tell her once , once mind you, that maybe I should

do that and work full time to support us, since she had squandered her

divorce settlement, lost 2 jobs, and didnt seem highly motivated to get

one. She turned that into a self sacrificing gaslight story about how

she gave up her career in nursing just to keep me in school.

> > Of course , how sick is that? 17 year olds should not be the ones

working to suppoort a 36 yo mother.

> >

> > The story evolved again after a while till she had dropped out

because the director of the school had it in for her because I had dated

but not married her daughter! But we were still in High School when all

this happened.

> >

> > And they wonder why we doubt reality.

> >

> > So, guys. What are your crazy gaslighing stories.

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

For a more detailed article on gaslighting

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/109220/what_is_gaslighting_.html?cat=5

>

> not sure if I can explaine it well, but ti's when someone else ( like a

> nada) twists things around to make YOU look like the crazy one.. my nada is

> a pro at this..

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> Doug ~

>

> What is gaslighting? I'm sure I've got something on this, but I could use

> some help understanding this term.

>

> ) Dolly

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

This is very interesting what you wrote about your place in the family and your

*role* and what it seems that nadas *need*. I mean the three-child thing can

fill that pretty readily but the less than three not so good.

I'm sorry that you felt *less-than* because of what your mother was acting out.

I was also the little adult. And also criticized for being that way at

different times. I don't even know really how this has shaped me; what I mean

is I don't know who I am without this persona. I think that is why I feel so

sad without my sister (I mean other obvious reasons) because she gave me a sort

of mirror to myself. She knew me. But she also would be one of those that

would say: you are too serious.

So yeah, I was depended on heavily but in that weird way, not respected. And so

I became this adult person who accepts not being respected and doesn't even know

when it is happening.

You are so very articulate in describing your ex-wife's feelings of lost-ness

and alienation. In a way I can relate; being *lost* not having a sense of not

understanding my pain in this part of my life and that is scary; I cannot act

out by being bad or doing drugs etc.

That poor poor woman; how could someone treat a baby that way; their own child?

(My parents were not like that). This world is crazy.

In a lot of ways her position sounds like mine. My brother was " the artist "

(golden one) and my sister was the baby; I had to take care of my mom with all

her crisises. One time when I was in elementary school, my mother cracked her

pelvis falling on the steps. I was somehow the one to stay home from school to

watch after her! I remember how scared I was because my mom was in so much

pain. There is this weird thing because you love your mom, but you are scared

of this *person* who is in pain and acting strange, like a wounded animal.

So yeah...this weird attachment. And I think you are onto something...not

having a *role* at school, not having boundaries and everyone else just crowding

in. You are right; the feeling I get about not getting off the bus is one of

*protest*.

I am also afraid of having people spot my flaws and I am very defensive. When I

would go to see Khasha (when he lived five minutes down the road, I would spend

two hours getting ready, even though it was fun, that says something).

I can relate too, to what you say about your ex, saying things like: I have no

reason to be down, I'm just whining. I just wrote to Khasha about this chronic

sacral-iliac pain that I am just being a baby (because I am so sad about it and

complaining, like I am not allowed).

That is so sad about her identifying with Casper. Sometimes I feel like a ghost

anymore. I mean, my role(s) are disappearing; I am not longer looking after and

trying to help my sister and her kids, my mom has my niece there, my son is a

teenager (I know he needs me but....in three years he is technically an adult).

I go my way every day with no one to see me or account to.

Do you know if your ex is happy or what she is doing? I understand what you are

saying; you are very compassionate. It's funny, I feel that way towards Khasha.

I actually really love him, not the sort of superficial love of *what can he do

for me* but I just love him. I don't want him to be with anyone else but I

don't want him unhappy either.

Ah well. I have another story to tell about my request for painkillers from the

new doctor I saw for my SI joint pain.

~patricia

ps..thank you for articulating this so clearly it helps me a lot because even

though I am very analytical and thoughtful about things I don't understand

certain parts of myself.

Re: gaslighting

,I had an ah ha moment reading your post,too.Or validation for

something I'd suspected about nada--or knew I guess,but it seemed more like a

suspicion.I'm glad you got something out of my post and I think you're right:

your sibling roles were there to boost up your mother's self image.

What you said about your sister being the sweet,dependent little girl

who gave your mom a *mother* role...whoa...for one thing,nada always always kept

stating her desire to have a third child--AND--in her spoken fantasies about

having this third child,she always maintained that it would be a girl.She had

even picked out a name: a variation on her maiden name--which I've always

thought of as so narcissistic,like she wanted to have a mini-me.But after

reading your post,I think it was more that this fantasy little girl was supposed

to shore up nada's self image,hence why she intended to attach that piece of

herself to the baby by naming it after her.

She could be SO insenstive when speaking of her desire to have this

third baby and it made me feel like the hoped for baby girl was meant to be a

replacement for me,the defective model.

But thinking about the sibling roles in your family,I suddenly see

that something/someone was missing.My brother was the all good/golden.I wasn't

the lost child--I was the all bad--but I was also the little adult and very

independent and conscientious.I was forced so many times even when I was little

to be the responsible one for all of them.And into adulthood--like when the

chips were down,who did they call? Me.Suddenly I wasn't so rotten after

all,funny how I could be depended upon (while never being respected at exactly

the same time).

The little girl who could make nada a mother was missing from the

family equation.It makes so much sense.I am sure that in your case what you said

about your sister is exactly what it was.I could never make her a mother because

I *was* the mother.My brother was too much of a little god in a way to be her

" baby " : he was more of an idol.

At one point,when I was five,nada wanted to adopt a mildly mentally

retarded two year old girl.Long story and it never happened,but at the time when

she was plotting this,I did feel like if it went through I'd become

invisible.Maybe not even the all bad scapegoat anymore,but lost and only

referred to when needed to fill the role of The Responsible One.I found the very

idea unbearable--as awful as being the all bad was--and I was the one who threw

a wrench into the works by tipping the bio mom off to nada's plans.

I have alot of sympathy for you for being that middle,lost child.I

know I write alot about my own horrors on this board but I can't even imagine

how painful that must have been for you.I do have an idea,though,of what that

is...To be honest,I've hesitated a bit bringing this up because the only way I

can address it is through yet another (hopefuly not too boring lol) story from

my own experience.But for what it's worth,my ex wife was the middle lost child

in her family and the way she continued to suffer from that into adulthood

seemed to me in some ways even worse than the more clear cut alienation I felt

from my own family and from myself from having grown up as the all bad.Like the

pain was harder for her to access because it was more subtle (I mean,unlike mine

that had involved really obvious viciousness directed right at me

personally)--and also that her pain was almost more all pervasive than mine

because it just wasn't as upfront and cutting,sharp,personal...like her pain got

lost along with her...

She was the middle of three girls: the oldest was the golden child

and the youngest was the sweet,helpless little baby.Her parents had hoped for a

boy when she was born and her mother hadn't even bothered to pick out a girl's

name,this kind of magical thinking like not having a girl's name would *make*

her be a boy.Her mother was a Waif/Hermit nada.So,when she was born,her mother

just picked out popular girl's name at random.She had gone to some trouble

finding just the right names for her sisters,choosing them from books she had

loved.Her sisters both had these unique literary names and she had a

common,everyday name.

And when her father was told his wife had given birth to another

girl,he stormed out of the hospital and refused to visit her mother,only

returning to collect them when they were discharged.

Both of her sisters were blonde like her mother and she was dark

haired like her father.Her father believed that only blondes are attractive--so

although ironically my ex wife was in fact the prettiest of the three girls,her

beauty was invisible to her father simply because she wasn't a blonde.

She grew up feeling ugly even though she was the best looking

one--something she never got over.She felt like she could never measure up to

her older sister who was treated like a super star and her little sister who was

fawned over for being little and cute.She had no place to *be* in that family

except as the caretaker.

Her older sister got to go off and have adventures and her little

sister was allowed to be dependent and helpless.My ex wife was the one who got

stuck with the " job " of tending to her Waif nada when she had a crisis or

staying with her when she was in Hermit mode.She was also expected to be

responsible for the baby sister when nada was incapacitated.

So I was struck by what you said about being devastated when you had

to go to school.My ex wife had mentioned the same exact thing,like she didn't

know what to do or how to be if she had to leave her mother.She HATED going to

school.Me,I was delighted to skip off to nursery school,like thank god,free at

last!!!! And believe me,I didn't look back.

My ex wife was very intelligent and loved to read and study

things,so her loathing of school wasn't because she had no interest in

learning.It was the leaving her mother;the being alone outside of her caretaker

role.It has got to be really surreal and confusing to be both a caretaker and

invisible at the same time.Maybe that is why you didn't get off the bus that

day: like a protest you couldn't even articulate to yourself because your role

hadn't ever been clearly defined but felt so compelling...and like you needed

somehow to have your nada worry about where you were since you weren't actually

anywhere...which would feel reasonably like being in a trance.

My ex wife was kind of in a trance all the time,like disconnected from

herself.She consciously resented her older sister and saw her as arrogant.She

worried too much about her younger sister,needed to check in with her,like she

couldn't help it.She'd have to force herself not to do that sometimes.

She referred to her job as " my attempt to justify my

existence " --although she was successful,she never believed it.Other peoples'

professional compliments hurt her because she was sure they weren't merited--she

knew she hadn't really done enough,done it just right;that she could never do

enough.Or if *she* was the one that had accomplished something,it was lacking

somehow because it was her.

Her hugest fear with us was that I'd discover her " flaws " and be so

disillusioned,I'd leave her on the spot.I tried so many times to tell her that I

*did* see her flaws and was ok with them,it was just that I chose to focus on

what I truly liked about her.

She never believed me.She insisted that I only idealized her.I felt

at the time and still do now that this was directly related to her having been

the lost child in her family.Like,if I am less than in any way in your

estimation,I will be lost to you.

I had to *pry* any problems out of her.She'd say things like, " I have

no reason really to be so down,I'm just whining...I'll get over it... " About

things that she REALLY had reason to be upset about,like her father being an

a-hole to her.Or she'd be angry about it but not trust me enough to really talk

it out with me.Like she feared I'd tell her to knock it off,when actually I

thought she had every reason to be angry.Or down.

I could tell her that again and again and still had to pry it out of

her.

Her formative experience had been having no one to go to--and sort of

no real " inner sanctum " of any substance to withdraw to.She didn't know how she

was supposed to feel about stuff sometimes and so she'd tell herself how she

" should " feel.Nobody had ever helped her to know how *she* felt when she was

growing up.And the discovery of her own feelings occurred in this vaccuum with

no meaningful feedback,ever.She told me once that as a child she had really

identified with Caspar the friendly ghost.

Her lost child legacy was serious and affected her very deeply.She

needed to find her way back to herself somehow and unfortunately I wasn't able

to help her do that.I'm not bitter about our relationship,just sad for what it

might have been but couldn't be at the time (which also has bearing on my own

issues: it takes two to tango,right).All I'd want to know today is that she is

happy--and truly fulfilled--that would be enough.And it would sort of be a

vindication of both of us...that sounds odd I guess but I don't know how else to

describe it: a vindication of our individual sufferings,that we both found some

way back to ourselves,even if not together...

>

> Wow, ,

> Reading this gave me one of those 'ah ha's where I think maybe I realized

that the reason each of us kids in my family had these seemingly stuck-in-place

behaviors and roles was to boost up my mother's self image. It's not that we

were *great* achievers but more having my brother being 'golden' she could

ignore his obvious flaws (because in her mind, her friend's kids were

super-achievers and we should be more like that, and not talk back, etc etc; of

course those kids were beaten and punished if they didn't do what was expected).

>

> If my sister could be the sweet little girl, dependent on my mom, then that

could keep my mom in that *mother* role; and me being independent and

conscientious could let her have a responsible daughter she could always depend

on. Voila! A well put together family. That could maybe hide the realities.

I was lonely, bullied (including by my brother) and depressed. My sister was

not growing up properly with the ability to learn from her mistakes, and my

brother was self involved and could not ultimately inter-relate say with a woman

with whom he could marry. (or stay married to).

>

> This is why my mom didn't want to hear anything negative, any fighting, any

problems. Nothing. But....it sort of delineated our personalities and kept us

away from each other. Relationships that could have grown over the years

(though I was close to my sister after our teen years). And I am certainly not

leaving my father out of this.

> I'm going to have to think about this for awhile to understand what it means

to me now.

>

> What you said about the Limoges....that made me gasp.

> And the 'not caring anymore'~ sometimes I make myself hard and 'don't care'

But I think, no, *know* that it is just a fragile cover to caring so much.

> thanks for your insights

> ~patricia

>

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

So Jackie,

Your mom was telling you that she wanted some kids but not as many

as you happened to be? That is terrible. I cannot believe how negative

and awful people can be. Isn't there a mental illness of niceness? Oh, no

that would be us, the over-nice people the result of this mean-ness.

Sorry to hear that you had to listen to this

~patricia

Re: Re: gaslighting

nada always told me she wanted 2 maybe 3 kids, possibly 4.....I'm the 5th !!

Jackie

,I had an ah ha moment reading your post,too.Or validation for

something I'd suspected about nada--or knew I guess,but it seemed more like

a suspicion.I'm glad you got something out of my post and I think you're

right: your sibling roles were there to boost up your mother's self image.

What you said about your sister being the sweet,dependent little girl

who gave your mom a *mother* role...whoa...for one thing,nada always always

kept stating her desire to have a third child--AND--in her spoken fantasies

about having this third child,she always maintained that it would be a

girl.She had even picked out a name: a variation on her maiden name--which

I've always thought of as so narcissistic,like she wanted to have a

mini-me.But after reading your post,I think it was more that this fantasy

little girl was supposed to shore up nada's self image,hence why she

intended to attach that piece of herself to the baby by naming it after her.

She could be SO insenstive when speaking of her desire to have this

third baby and it made me feel like the hoped for baby girl was meant to be

a replacement for me,the defective model.

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

What a shame you're having joint pain.I don't have that,but have had

some health problems at times and I know how they can just wear you

down.Wow,that really sucks! Did you have problems getting a good painkiller from

your doctor that would work for you? I remember the last time I had a really bad

sore throat (not as bothersome in the long term as joint pain,but...) and my

doctor refused to give me codeine.It's like they're so paranoid people are going

to abuse painkillers,sometimes ridiculously so.I'm telling her it really really

hurt and she's telling me " I only prescribe codeine in total emergencies and

even then,if I can avoid it,I don't... " But it *was* an emergency!!!

Have you tried bio-identical progesterone cream? I know someone who

had joint pain related to the beginnings of real menopause and using that helped

her.Although it doesn't sound like that's what is causing yours? Just a

thought,anyway.

My ex wife...No,I don't think she's *really* happy.I don't want to

write too many possibly identifying details since after all I'm speaking of her

without her consent,but she did go on to have a very high profile job (on an

international level)--then after a couple of years she resigned.That is what

she'd do: land these prestige positions and then if there was even a hint that

she *might* be called onto the carpet for something (I'm talking relatively

minor stuff--nobody is perfect),instead of staying and fighting,she'd bow out

" gracefully " .Go on to the next job,then to the next one.

She can't bear the ignominy of (even passing defeat),so she cuts and

runs.As far as I know,that hasn't changed.If she called me and said: I have this

really wonderful relationship and I'm so happy with it/and/I found the perfect

job and I'm really sticking with it and I really trust in myself now to do it

well...I would simply be glad for her.I can't really say that,to be honest,about

most of my other exes.I'd still feel that pang of ego woundedness,like,what do

you mean,you're really happy (HAPPIER!) without me,but we really lived something

together the two of us.We really tried to make it work.I didn't doubt her love

for me and she knew I truly loved her.It's still there,just not as it was when

we were together.It's like the possessiveness of coupledom is gone but the good

will remains.

And I think both of us feel pain (for the other) that we weren't able to

be totally what we needed at the time or enough at the time to really be that

help that would rectify the past or heal us.Reading your posts (since much of

what you say is like her issues),I've had a gradual epiphany about what went

wrong.I see that I judged her--or misjudged her--harshly sometimes because of my

own issues.I feel like I understand her better,ten years too late.Which doesn't

mean that I want to get back with her.I don't.It's not the same anymore as it

was.But understanding better where she was coming from brings a fuller feeling

of closure.Or,it seems to me right now,a more mature assessment of the

relationship with alot less self pity clouding the memory of it .

What you said about not being able to act out by being bad or doing

drugs,ha,that was like my ex wife too.She was too conditioned to be responsible

to just " let go " like that.Like doing stuff like that was too alien to how she

was *supposed* to be.She drank sometimes when she was under alot of stress,but

not like an alcoholic (although when she did,she worried she'd become one).She

had a hard time in general relaxing,so her drinking was always only at home and

she had to have a " reason " for it: like I need some Cognac so I can sleep

tonight--and yet--I feel really " bad " for even having it but I need it but...One

time I jokingly said that we should just get really blasted together and see

what we got up to,just for fun...and she was horrified.

You shouldn't have been expected to take care of your mother when you

were in grade school!! Or expected to take care of her at all,of course.My ex

wife's Waif nada had " spells " sometimes lasting weeks when she would take to her

bed.And she was expected to nurse her.She said the same thing you did,about

being scared of her pain yet loving her--and frightened by how strange she was

acting.She had no one to go to say:*I* feel scared...it was all:what can you do

for your poor mother...your poor mother...who is the one who needs help...

And so it was extremely difficult for my ex wife to ever say: I have a

need...I need help...my need is legitimate and I expect it to be addressed.She

hoped that others would guess what she needed since saying it out loud would

lead to a rejection,she thought.

But if I told her: If you just tell me what you need and if I can

provide it,I will do so immediately or ASAP and I will be delighted to...then

she'd go back to the: It's not really that important,I'll adjust...I shouldn't

have brought it up,forget about it...

She definitely felt like she was not " allowed " to express her needs or

her pain,even when I *thought* I was giving her permission to.Like if I thought

she was complaining,I'd get tired of her.She seemed to think that her being sad

was some kind of mortal sin.

It's interesting what you said about your sister being a mirror to

you.Incidentally,my ex wife was close to her little sister from their teenage

years but never close to her older sister.She used to say that *I* was like a

mirror to her.

I think it's good that your roles are disappearing.That,now,you can have

more freedom to discover what *your* role is,for you.To no longer have to fix

your family,but to tend to yourself.You deserve that--it's not selfish.Not at

all.

>

> Hi ,

> This is very interesting what you wrote about your place in the family and

your *role* and what it seems that nadas *need*. I mean the three-child thing

can fill that pretty readily but the less than three not so good.

>

> I'm sorry that you felt *less-than* because of what your mother was acting

out. I was also the little adult. And also criticized for being that way at

different times. I don't even know really how this has shaped me; what I mean

is I don't know who I am without this persona. I think that is why I feel so

sad without my sister (I mean other obvious reasons) because she gave me a sort

of mirror to myself. She knew me. But she also would be one of those that

would say: you are too serious.

> So yeah, I was depended on heavily but in that weird way, not respected. And

so I became this adult person who accepts not being respected and doesn't even

know when it is happening.

>

> You are so very articulate in describing your ex-wife's feelings of lost-ness

and alienation. In a way I can relate; being *lost* not having a sense of not

understanding my pain in this part of my life and that is scary; I cannot act

out by being bad or doing drugs etc.

> That poor poor woman; how could someone treat a baby that way; their own

child? (My parents were not like that). This world is crazy.

> In a lot of ways her position sounds like mine. My brother was " the artist "

(golden one) and my sister was the baby; I had to take care of my mom with all

her crisises. One time when I was in elementary school, my mother cracked her

pelvis falling on the steps. I was somehow the one to stay home from school to

watch after her! I remember how scared I was because my mom was in so much

pain. There is this weird thing because you love your mom, but you are scared

of this *person* who is in pain and acting strange, like a wounded animal.

>

> So yeah...this weird attachment. And I think you are onto something...not

having a *role* at school, not having boundaries and everyone else just crowding

in. You are right; the feeling I get about not getting off the bus is one of

*protest*.

> I am also afraid of having people spot my flaws and I am very defensive. When

I would go to see Khasha (when he lived five minutes down the road, I would

spend two hours getting ready, even though it was fun, that says something).

>

> I can relate too, to what you say about your ex, saying things like: I have no

reason to be down, I'm just whining. I just wrote to Khasha about this chronic

sacral-iliac pain that I am just being a baby (because I am so sad about it and

complaining, like I am not allowed).

>

> That is so sad about her identifying with Casper. Sometimes I feel like a

ghost anymore. I mean, my role(s) are disappearing; I am not longer looking

after and trying to help my sister and her kids, my mom has my niece there, my

son is a teenager (I know he needs me but....in three years he is technically an

adult). I go my way every day with no one to see me or account to.

>

> Do you know if your ex is happy or what she is doing? I understand what you

are saying; you are very compassionate. It's funny, I feel that way towards

Khasha. I actually really love him, not the sort of superficial love of *what

can he do for me* but I just love him. I don't want him to be with anyone else

but I don't want him unhappy either.

> Ah well. I have another story to tell about my request for painkillers from

the new doctor I saw for my SI joint pain.

> ~patricia

> ps..thank you for articulating this so clearly it helps me a lot because even

though I am very analytical and thoughtful about things I don't understand

certain parts of myself.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

thanks ..yes, my nada had all kinds of ways to try and hurt me...she

had told me this many times, about not wanting as many kids as she ended up

with...once when I was in high school, she said this again, and I said back

in a snotty way then you should have kept your legs together...she slapped

me across the face :-(

Jackie

So Jackie,

Your mom was telling you that she wanted some kids but not as many

as you happened to be? That is terrible. I cannot believe how negative

and awful people can be. Isn't there a mental illness of niceness? Oh, no

that would be us, the over-nice people the result of this mean-ness.

Sorry to hear that you had to listen to this

~patricia

[Guest guest]

thanks , I'll have to look that up !!

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

Wow arthritis like that is bad....i read about something called

Q-laser (?) for arthritis. I was going to tell my mom because she has

she has bad arthritis in her hands. But maybe you can look into it.

Yeah, chronic pain is horrible; it gives me a lot of compassion of something

I was not aware of before. (And that is, I am sure, a good thing).

The doctor thing...wow, that really bothered me because I have been the

*good* *responsible* child (in my family), you know? My role....which is

not

really relevant in the *real* world, now is it? And I think that is the

subtle thing

that really bothered me, that someone could think something of me (that I

am a drug seeker)~ after *all* I have done (to prove myself).

It's a weird thing to realize, I guess.

thanks for your thoughts, and caring,

~patricia

I've done and been responsible for!!

[Guest guest]

hi , when I could get my father away from nada, he was almost a

normal parent..mature, caring, understanding and empathetic...when he was

around nada, he was just lint on the floor. Thats sad your own father

didnt mention his first kids in his will :-(

Jackie

Hi Jackie

I guess it is all sad dealing with these people who happened to be our

parents. In some way, my mother gave more to me than my dad. Ironically

I got a letter today from his law office. His brother (my uncle; estranged)

passed away this past year, and I guess being his living descendents or

maybe

he put us kids in his will? I have no idea, but we each received two

hundred

dollars. (me, my brother and I am guessing each of my sister's kids).

Of course the lawyers got 1,000 of it. But my dad...he left us nothing, and

it was *his* law office. It sort of brought up a bunch of hard feelings.

Ah well.

What you describe makes sense in that weird FOG kind of way. I hate it

when people can't be *real* and that is probably why (FOG)

~patricia

[Guest guest]

She wasn't. She posted a post that came across as asking people not to share

their pain here unless they also were going to spread sunshine with it. I, and

others, felt very accused and attacked by said post...and I, being me, stood up

for my right to express my pain (and for others to do so) without being told how

to express it. It was not an attack.

She felt she was attacked, and she was apologized to. And, rather than actually

discussing it with the primary person she had the disagreement with (me) she

keeps throwing it into other posts as if she is a completely blameless and

innocent victim. Apparently an apology was not enough.

Dolly, please stop doing that. You ask for understanding, and aren't giving it.

To continue to bring it up time and again feels like continued attack to me

ESPECIALLY when a public apology was posted.

Either deal with me directly or drop it. You aren't a blameless victim who was

attacked. You were an equal participant in a disagreement.

You know what? Forget it.

I'm out. This is bullshit. If I want someone to play that kind of game with

me, I'll open contact back up with nada. But here? No way.

You got your wish, Dolly. I'm done with posting here.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: Re: gaslighting

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 3:59 PM

> Dolly, there should be NO rewounding

> on this board !!! NO ONE should be

> attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all

> here for one reason, to

> share our experiences and to heal . I am very

> sorry and saddened to hear

> you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts,

> and dont understand

> why anyone would have attacked you.

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________

> I just share that because I almost dropped off this board

> because of an

> attack that came from another person on here... It's hard

> to remember that

> we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just

> don't know if I'm

> strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all

> about rewounding

> vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time

> that I've been away

> from this discussion board. I just hope I can

> maintain the positive

> momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny

> for your THOUGHTS?

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Ninera,just FYI,I forwarded Dolly's posts to the attention of the moderator on

Saturday.She could have done the same with yours if she believed there was a

serious problem she didn't think she could address and attempt to resolve

directly with you,but instead chose to triangulate other group members.At the

bottom of most of the posts on this board,there is a message with the list

manager/moderator's e-mail address.

Please don't leave the group! You contribute so much here and we value you

and your participation.I believe that you expressed your point of view

respectfully.

>

> >

> > Subject: Re: Re: gaslighting

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 3:59 PM

> > Dolly, there should be NO rewounding

> > on this board !!! NO ONE should be

> > attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all

> > here for one reason, to

> > share our experiences and to heal . I am very

> > sorry and saddened to hear

> > you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts,

> > and dont understand

> > why anyone would have attacked you.

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________________

> > I just share that because I almost dropped off this board

> > because of an

> > attack that came from another person on here... It's hard

> > to remember that

> > we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just

> > don't know if I'm

> > strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all

> > about rewounding

> > vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time

> > that I've been away

> > from this discussion board. I just hope I can

> > maintain the positive

> > momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny

> > for your THOUGHTS?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

> > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> > GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> > “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> > “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Oh my, I've missed a lot of posts lately so I didn't see how all this started

but Ninera I hope you don't leave. I hope that the moderator can make a call

about this that can settle things peacefully. You've personally helped me just

recently and I appreciate your presence here.

> >

> > > From: sleddog <sleddog@>

> > > Subject: Re: Re: gaslighting

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 3:59 PM

> > > Dolly, there should be NO rewounding

> > > on this board !!! NO ONE should be

> > > attacking any one else for any reason !! we are all

> > > here for one reason, to

> > > share our experiences and to heal . I am very

> > > sorry and saddened to hear

> > > you were attacked by someone. I have read your posts,

> > > and dont understand

> > > why anyone would have attacked you.

> > >

> > > Jackie

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________________

> > > I just share that because I almost dropped off this board

> > > because of an

> > > attack that came from another person on here... It's hard

> > > to remember that

> > > we're all a bit injured (in here especially). I just

> > > don't know if I'm

> > > strong enough to stay in this discussion board if it's all

> > > about rewounding

> > > vs. PROGRESS! I've made a LOT of progress in the time

> > > that I've been away

> > > from this discussion board. I just hope I can

> > > maintain the positive

> > > momentum in spite of the fleas jumping in here... A penny

> > > for your THOUGHTS?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @

> > > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> > > GROUP.

> > >

> > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> > > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> > > “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> > > “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> > > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > >

> > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> > > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

it is a hard thing to get past, when a step mother is petty and refuses to

acknowledge her husbands kids from a previous marriage...thats just WRONG !!

Jackie

Hey Jackie,

Yeah, it is sad that my dad did not mention us in his will; he had a huge

book collection

that I naturally thought would come to me. He was writing a book on the

civil war and I fantasized that I would finish it for him. There were a

bunch of things that I gave him for

gifts that I wanted back. I do not understand why his wife has with held

thing from us.

I try to get past it, but I just can't. Because I don't understand it at

all.

With my mom, my dad seemed to just avoid. He had a lot of mental illness in

his family.

He saw her depression as a weakness, which I think is wrong. When I was

depressed and

told him I went on meds, he told me I was being just like my mom (wrong

thing to say, right?)

He was living in a way that denied his own connections in life (the mental

illnesses of his

brothers and probably his mother, his step mother's alcoholism, his father's

distance ).

He found a woman he could love very much and I was happy for him.

But he left us (kids) after that...we had some connection but not much. And

it

broke my heart when he died.

~patricia

[Guest guest]

you are right Ninera. I had missed that post, but please dont quit because

of one person !! we all need each other, and you have such great insight

into this terrible condition our patents have

Jackie

She wasn't. She posted a post that came across as asking people not to

share their pain here unless they also were going to spread sunshine with

it. I, and others, felt very accused and attacked by said post...and I,

being me, stood up for my right to express my pain (and for others to do so)

without being told how to express it. It was not an attack.

She felt she was attacked, and she was apologized to. And, rather than

actually discussing it with the primary person she had the disagreement with

(me) she keeps throwing it into other posts as if she is a completely

blameless and innocent victim. Apparently an apology was not enough.

Dolly, please stop doing that. You ask for understanding, and aren't giving

it. To continue to bring it up time and again feels like continued attack to

me ESPECIALLY when a public apology was posted.

Either deal with me directly or drop it. You aren't a blameless victim who

was attacked. You were an equal participant in a disagreement.

You know what? Forget it.

I'm out. This is bullshit. If I want someone to play that kind of game

with me, I'll open contact back up with nada. But here? No way.

You got your wish, Dolly. I'm done with posting here.

Ninera

[Guest guest]

I know...it makes me wonder about who *she* is. I was willing to

welcome her in my life; I sat with her while my dad was dying; we

talked like friends. It is so strange. Makes me wonder if there are

secrets and she just wants nothing to come out...

~patricia

Re: Re: gaslighting

it is a hard thing to get past, when a step mother is petty and refuses to

acknowledge her husbands kids from a previous marriage...thats just WRONG !!

Jackie

Hey Jackie,

Yeah, it is sad that my dad did not mention us in his will; he had a huge

book collection

that I naturally thought would come to me. He was writing a book on the

civil war and I fantasized that I would finish it for him. There were a

bunch of things that I gave him for

gifts that I wanted back. I do not understand why his wife has with held

thing from us.

I try to get past it, but I just can't. Because I don't understand it at

all.

With my mom, my dad seemed to just avoid. He had a lot of mental illness in

his family.

He saw her depression as a weakness, which I think is wrong. When I was

depressed and

told him I went on meds, he told me I was being just like my mom (wrong

thing to say, right?)

He was living in a way that denied his own connections in life (the mental

illnesses of his

brothers and probably his mother, his step mother's alcoholism, his father's

distance ).

He found a woman he could love very much and I was happy for him.

But he left us (kids) after that...we had some connection but not much. And

it

broke my heart when he died.

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ...The reason I asked when you have the PMS symptoms in your cycle

was because if they begin at bleeding,it's more directly related to a big drop

in hormone levels and if they lessen at bleeding,it's more indicative of

so-called " premenstrual dysphoric disorder " .A condition that is not well

understood (since women's health issues aren't as researched as they should

be--and birth control pills as a remedy keep getting peddled and peddled because

they're a patented money maker for big pharma)--anyway,yes,most gynecologists

would prescribe antidepressants for that,unfortunately.The ones who also

recommend alternative treatments have to really be sought out.

Did your gyno do a blood or a saliva test for your hormones and was she

only doing a test to check if you were in perimenopause? Because the other

hormone level test is generally done as a saliva test,I believe,and it isn't a

one-off test: hormone levels are measured through a regular cycle (or a couple

of cycles) to see what the pattern of hormonal fluctuation is and if anything is

dipping or soaring and when.

I had a blood test for perimenopause just three years ago when my weird

period symptoms had only just begun but weren't as horrendous as they became

later.What a joke.It came back negative for perimenopause--and guess what.Two

years later I *was* in perimenopause.That whole experience with having near

constant periods was a nightmare from hell.It wasn't just the physical

symptoms,which were bad enough.But also the mental/emotional ones.I experienced

alot of mental confusion and had just been promoted to a position where I had

much more responsibility...ah,it's a long story...you know that feeling you have

while you're having a nightmare? Well,that is how I felt,but I was awake.

An older coworker had had the same thing and she had gone along with

having a hysterectomy.That was not something I wanted to do,even a partial

one,until I had exhausted all other options.Except there weren't any good ones

or ones I wanted to do.

I knew that I was fighting a losing battle trying to get the

gynocologists I saw to do something else for me,since they had been trained a

certain way and just weren't into considering or learning about alternative

treatments.I mean,it was pointless to argue with them--their minds were closed

or made up a certain way.

By the time I finally found one who does offer alternative

treatment,my system/body had balanced out.Something similar had happened to nada

at 42,sudden perimenopause.Except she didn't have the wild ride into it that I

had.

It was a very lonely place to be in--to be in so much pain almost

all the time,so emotionally confused,so exhausted and despondent.And to discover

that the only " help " available was either butchering my insides or drugging my

mind or artificially throwing my hormones even more out of whack.But I used that

time to really explore my own psychology and although I wouldn't go through

something like that again if given the choice,I learned from it.What else was

there to do?

About the bio-identical hormones: if you get them from a compounding

pharmacy,they shouldn't run you more than 24 dollars or so for a month's

supply.I'm not surprised to hear that some unscrupulous people have attempted to

make a huge profit from women's health problems,though.The FDA itself was making

noises about banning bio-identical hormones at the behest of big pharma--they

are losing money as the dangers of synthetic HRT become more known;

bio-identical HRT is safer (and much less expensive).

Certainly hormones have something to do with your PMS

symptoms.Naturopaths do prescribe bio-identicals,but I don't know if they'd

accept your insurance.So you'd need to find a " regular " gynecologist who treats

patients with them.It shouldn't be such a hassle...but it is...

About the " spine guy " ...I'm saying this to you as a friend and I am

also telling you the same thing I'd tell myself: only pick a battle you can

really fight/don't rattle your sabre unless you fully know how to wield it...

Asserting yourself is not the same as explaining yourself.You don't owe

this guy an explanation.And unfortunately even if you *did* explain to him all

about what you've been through,he probably wouldn't get it.Or he'd probably draw

yet more erroneous conclusions about you.That's just the way it is.I suggested

you assert your side of it in the context of your own pain management needs not

to offer an explanation but as damage control for YOURSELF.You made a mistake

mentioning alcohol usage to his reception.That's not said in judgment of you at

all.All of us make mistakes we never intended to be mistakes,I do too.But it's

done now--and now you need to switch that gear yourself because they aren't

going to do it for you.So,they're lazy: they didn't bother to check into it to

make sure they weren't making false assumptions.That is what you are dealing

with,so now you know.You need,IMO,to disabuse them of their illusions about you.

In my opinion,there are two important things to consider as the basis

of how you will go about asserting your pain management needs: first,that they

now " think " (wrongly,but they do now) that you want narcotics for some negative

reason so you need to strategize that thinking out of their heads--and

second,considering his side of it as part of strategizing for YOU only to get

YOUR needs met,as a physician he is loathe to prescribe narcotics at all and

seems to believe they are not indicated in your case (which he probably believes

of the vast majority of his patients).As a physician,he must follow some general

protocol of only prescribing them as a last resort,if ever.Now,that is his deal

so in my opinion insisting that he explain himself and his reasons for not

wanting to give them to you is going to make him defend his protocol.*IF*

another physician who had treated you had either recommended or prescribed

narcotics to you to specifically treat your condition,that would give you a leg

to stand on as it were and ammunition to do battle with the spine guy.Because

they heed the counsel of their peers--but you are not,in his mind,a peer.You are

a patient,which is very different is his mind.Fair? No.But that's how it is.

You said that he had been more helpful than the other ones you saw,so

in that sense you need him to continue to help you.Coming possibly to

loggerheads with him right out of the starting gate as far as getting those meds

in concerned is probably not going to result in you receiving them.It might.But

I think you're taking a gamble here with what is in fact an unknown quantity

before you decide to come out swinging: his possible reaction.IF you decide to

be combative by putting it on him to explain it,you'd better be ready to mean it

and be willing to keep it up,otherwise he will knock you down.I'm not saying

that to be discouraging.I am saying that as someone who knows how to fight--that

is how fighting works.If your opponent sees you flag or suspects that he

will,they will beat you.You are already in a one down position since he has what

you need and *could* refuse to give it to you or choose to engage you in a

fighting way right back--which would leave you with upping the ante as your only

option to win,which in this case would mean insisting that he give you what you

want.In order to insist in that way,you would have to come off as somewhat

threatening to get him to submit to you.And that you would have to really mean

(and be able to maintain)--and if you doubt your ability to do that at all,it

will show.

What I recommended is more of an initial sortie,like a recognizance

mission before you map out the final battle plan.It's not a capitulation to him

at all but more of a sussing him out first so *you* can ascertain what he might

have to throw at you,like how serious would his resistance to you be.And it's

best,for the sake of winning at this and getting what *you* want from him,that

he not know that this is what you are doing.You are not " explaining " yourself to

him hoping he'll " understand " and be " nice " to you: you are simply keeping your

cards close to your chest.You are disabusing him of his false notions about you

for YOUR sake,not for the sake of enlightening him about the fact that he jumps

to insulting conclusions.Do you see what I mean? Your secret weapon here is in

appearing to be amenable to his recommendations,but only to give you an in so

that you can sell him on giving you what you need.There is no point in possibly

alienating him before you even know how resistant he might be.

That is what I would do.I often employ appearing harmless as a

strategic tactic *before* going ahead with the " battle plan " so I know the lay

of the land first.

Best of luck with this,whatever you decide to do.I only wish you the

best and only you know what is the right way to go for you ...These are just

my two cents...

>

> Hi ~

> I cannot figure out why so much bad stuff seems to keep coming round in my

life! I mean some of it is my own fault (when I don't have my boundaries or

don't plan) but in other ways it's just things that happen. The main thing for

me is that I live too isolated, because otherwise I think I could handle it all

better.

>

> I thought that doctor who asked me: what do you want me to do? was ridiculous!

She would not give me a note to be out of work and I have no idea why. I

explained to her that they are cutting people's hours at my job and no one is

going to switch jobs with me! That would mean to switch schedules etc, it just

is not practical. Plus I cannot stand for a shift at this point either. I get

so bitter some times; I feel the world is so different than it used to be, but

maybe I am wrong. There is such a separation between those with something like

a good paying job and those who work at the level I do.

>

> I did not get an MRI. I think if the shots do not work that would be

something to do.

> The thing with me is that I am not the type to lay around injured; I like to

be active; I am ready to mentally move onto the next thing. But emotionally,

no, I guess. And anything physical I do I pay for later. I am nervous because

I know I cannot keep doing this job and I don't know what to do instead since I

want to go back to school, not get locked into another low-end job.

>

> You are so right about being triggered by that other doctor with the drug

thing. Me, who never has really done drugs except pot in my teen years. And of

course you can't get into all that on the phone or even in person! Then I got

scared that he would not treat me with the shots!

>

> I will tell you that I have learned, in the past few years, something

important. And that is that we cannot assume anything about people's lives and

what they are feeling and what they *should* be doing. When my sister was

dying, I had people (who knew her, even a close friend of mine) say: she made

her choices (to drink, do drugs etc). But they did not know the pain she

struggled with and her weakness in life. This lesson is something that has

sunk way into me. I get mad when other people tell me that they have the same

situation as I do, and they are fine (like my son with ADD and he is late to

school all the time and the email I get about it, I say: My son has ADD and is

on stimulant medication and cannot sleep til late, so he has a hard time getting

up. She says: My son has ADD too, and he can get to school on time.)

>

> Sorry to hear of your menstrual pain and I know how that whole trip goes with

the gynecologists...even female ones. Yeah, it is either hormone pills or

antidepressants, but try to get a painkiller! What is this! The thing with the

suicidal feelings..started in the past two years, coinciding with my father's

death, but most definitely in conjunction with PMS. Once I bleed I feel relief

mentally (although these days...), but yes, despondency is a good word. I feel

the joy of my life has been leaked away. I am convinced it is hormonal; I read

Suzanne Sommers book on bio-identical hormones and I want to try them; the trick

is trying to find an affordable treatment plan. I called someone in the back of

her book in CA, and the whole process had to be about 15,000 dollars!! It made

me mad that she offered this new idea of help for women but it is so expensive

that most women cannot do it.

> My regular gynecologist gave me the 'blank stare' when I mentioned it. She

measured my hormones and said: They are normal. No sign of menopause. But they

are normal for pre-menopause! Normal for making me feel like crap most of the

time.

>

> I am not sure how I will deal with the spine guy. I am getting shots

hopefully this Wednesday and supposedly it helps pretty quickly so I may not

even have to address getting painkillers. However I will have to find a way to

say something to him that I did not understand his reaction to my request. And

put it on him. Rather than on me to explain myself.

> But for this weekend...well what can I do? It is always like this on the

weekend..pain happens, toothaches, etc.

> I will check out Bromelain; and I have taken the glucosamine/chond. But I get

out of the habit of pill taking.

>

> Thanks for your thoughts, and reading through my seemingly endless trials

here. I feel like I have a black cloud over my head, I really do. I can't even

stand to see people around me enjoying themselves because I feel so aimless and

miserable. I can't even see the vision of my future, of things changing. I

am not saying they won't or I won't figure it out but right now it is difficult.

I guess I am resisting this grief over losing my sister because I know how long

it took me to just feel somewhat normal after losing my father; and my sister

was such a bigger loss to me.

>

> You are right, though, enough! I think I have to stop accepting shit from

people for one thing.

> And maybe figure out one tiny little enjoyable thing for myself otherwise.

> Thanks,

> ~patricia

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the world...

My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some reason,

my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally chase me

because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with objects in her hand

like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, it was just a means of

mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not remember any of it....not even

making the hole in the wall because I closed the bedroom door on her to try to

get away (she kicked the door open and the door knob made a hole in the wall).

AJ

> > >

> > > What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from

> nada?

> > >

> > >

> > > Mine were

> > >

> > > Money. Somehow nada could never recall anytime I gave her money.

> > >

> > > She took my dad and uncle to court over money she supposedly didnt

> get in child support. My uncle had paid her out of the business that

> they ran together. Nada insisted that it was her pay from working there.

> Problem? She never worked there a day. I would know, because I worked

> there. But she became convinced that she had recieved those checks as a

> salary. She got really angry at the judge when he called her a liar.

> > >

> > > She was in nursing school while I was in high school and dropped

> out. We never did find out why. But her story for a while was that it

> was so I could get a cap and gown for graduation. That was nonsense,

> because I was working and could pay for it myself, and my dad or any of

> several uncles would have given me the money had I asked. When I argued

> that story with her, it began to change, and then it became that she

> dropped out to get a job and keep me from quitting high school.

> > > Problem? After she dropped out , she didnt get a job until long

> after I was gone and in the Navy. Also, I never seriously considered

> dropping out, but did tell her once , once mind you, that maybe I should

> do that and work full time to support us, since she had squandered her

> divorce settlement, lost 2 jobs, and didnt seem highly motivated to get

> one. She turned that into a self sacrificing gaslight story about how

> she gave up her career in nursing just to keep me in school.

> > > Of course , how sick is that? 17 year olds should not be the ones

> working to suppoort a 36 yo mother.

> > >

> > > The story evolved again after a while till she had dropped out

> because the director of the school had it in for her because I had dated

> but not married her daughter! But we were still in High School when all

> this happened.

> > >

> > > And they wonder why we doubt reality.

> > >

> > > So, guys. What are your crazy gaslighing stories.

> > >

> > > Doug

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My nada gaslighted extensively with my (real) NAME, which is an unusual one. It

really freaks me out. When I got old enough to be interested in the origins of

my name, she told me I was named after a particular Saint. This Saint had an

interesting life, and for several years I told people the story of this

intereting person whom I was named after. But when I did this in nada's

company, she denied that and said oh, no, it was just a list of baby names

contained in the back of her Bible. The next time the subject came up, she said

it was just a piece of paper someone had PUT in her Bible...then it became

someone else's Bible entirely, and the next time she had me fully split black

and insisted she had 'no idea' and couldn't remember.

My nada is a grown-up, has graduated high school and college and has no IQ

disability. This was pure crazy-making. There was a lot of gaslighting of

course, but this particular subject really gets to me.

> > > >

> > > > What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from

> > nada?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mine were

> > > >

> > > > Money. Somehow nada could never recall anytime I gave her money.

> > > >

> > > > She took my dad and uncle to court over money she supposedly didnt

> > get in child support. My uncle had paid her out of the business that

> > they ran together. Nada insisted that it was her pay from working there.

> > Problem? She never worked there a day. I would know, because I worked

> > there. But she became convinced that she had recieved those checks as a

> > salary. She got really angry at the judge when he called her a liar.

> > > >

> > > > She was in nursing school while I was in high school and dropped

> > out. We never did find out why. But her story for a while was that it

> > was so I could get a cap and gown for graduation. That was nonsense,

> > because I was working and could pay for it myself, and my dad or any of

> > several uncles would have given me the money had I asked. When I argued

> > that story with her, it began to change, and then it became that she

> > dropped out to get a job and keep me from quitting high school.

> > > > Problem? After she dropped out , she didnt get a job until long

> > after I was gone and in the Navy. Also, I never seriously considered

> > dropping out, but did tell her once , once mind you, that maybe I should

> > do that and work full time to support us, since she had squandered her

> > divorce settlement, lost 2 jobs, and didnt seem highly motivated to get

> > one. She turned that into a self sacrificing gaslight story about how

> > she gave up her career in nursing just to keep me in school.

> > > > Of course , how sick is that? 17 year olds should not be the ones

> > working to suppoort a 36 yo mother.

> > > >

> > > > The story evolved again after a while till she had dropped out

> > because the director of the school had it in for her because I had dated

> > but not married her daughter! But we were still in High School when all

> > this happened.

> > > >

> > > > And they wonder why we doubt reality.

> > > >

> > > > So, guys. What are your crazy gaslighing stories.

> > > >

> > > > Doug

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us,

never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did,

then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used

to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her

metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I*

broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and

making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us

!!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ??

Jackie

I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the

world...

My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some

reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally

chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with

objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it,

it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not

remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed

the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the

door knob made a hole in the wall).

AJ

[Guest guest]

Charlotte, my nada gaslighted me with my name too. I finally learned the real

story at age 31 from my estranged fada after he decided to resurfaced after

about 15 years.

According to fada, when my nada was pregnant with me they went to see the

classic movie " Dr. Zhivago " My fada said he fell in love with Christie's

character " Lara " so he wanted to name me Lara. Fada told me " but your mother

wouldn't have it " so somehow it was changed to " " and that's how I was

named.

Incidentally, I had never seen the movie although I knew of it as a famous

classic. After hearing that story I decided I should rent the DVD. Bizarrely,

the NEXT DAY I turned on my TV and there was " Dr. Zhivago " ... the opening

credits. So I watched it, it was good. It gave me a warm feeling to have an

interesting story behind my name.

Nada's story involved no Dr. Zhivago, and that she only wanted to name me

" Kathleen " and according to nada, my fada wanted to name me " . " So I can

easily see how they settled on *wink*

Cahrayzee Nada. I wonder if nada remembers the Dr. Zhivago story, or if she's

forgotten and created an alternate story? Perhaps there's truth to both stories

but who knows? It's amazing how vastly different FOO accounts of history can be.

I really wish somebody cared enough to get the story straight considering it was

the birth of a new child; I guess it's not that important to NPD and BPD's.

> > > > >

> > > > > What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting from

> > > nada?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mine were

> > > > >

> > > > > Money. Somehow nada could never recall anytime I gave her money.

> > > > >

> > > > > She took my dad and uncle to court over money she supposedly didnt

> > > get in child support. My uncle had paid her out of the business that

> > > they ran together. Nada insisted that it was her pay from working there.

> > > Problem? She never worked there a day. I would know, because I worked

> > > there. But she became convinced that she had recieved those checks as a

> > > salary. She got really angry at the judge when he called her a liar.

> > > > >

> > > > > She was in nursing school while I was in high school and dropped

> > > out. We never did find out why. But her story for a while was that it

> > > was so I could get a cap and gown for graduation. That was nonsense,

> > > because I was working and could pay for it myself, and my dad or any of

> > > several uncles would have given me the money had I asked. When I argued

> > > that story with her, it began to change, and then it became that she

> > > dropped out to get a job and keep me from quitting high school.

> > > > > Problem? After she dropped out , she didnt get a job until long

> > > after I was gone and in the Navy. Also, I never seriously considered

> > > dropping out, but did tell her once , once mind you, that maybe I should

> > > do that and work full time to support us, since she had squandered her

> > > divorce settlement, lost 2 jobs, and didnt seem highly motivated to get

> > > one. She turned that into a self sacrificing gaslight story about how

> > > she gave up her career in nursing just to keep me in school.

> > > > > Of course , how sick is that? 17 year olds should not be the ones

> > > working to suppoort a 36 yo mother.

> > > > >

> > > > > The story evolved again after a while till she had dropped out

> > > because the director of the school had it in for her because I had dated

> > > but not married her daughter! But we were still in High School when all

> > > this happened.

> > > > >

> > > > > And they wonder why we doubt reality.

> > > > >

> > > > > So, guys. What are your crazy gaslighing stories.

> > > > >

> > > > > Doug

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>