Gaslighting

[Guest guest]

OMG!!! This is my fada!!! he used to hit me starting at age 2. i have scary

memories of this. but now he acts like that never happened. that he never hit

us. he hit me much more than my brother. i was all-bad growing up so i was

singled out for all the beatings.

now, when he sees me put my daughter in time out for something she has done, he

claims that it is abusive and that he never did anything as bad as time out to

us. can you believe it??!!

he used to call me horrible names and hit for stupid reasons or no reason at

all. the tyraids used to last days. and then magically, he would be all loving

again for a day or two. i was just supposed to turn on and off according to his

mood. my mom never stepped in when he beat me, but would cry and rescue my

brother. of course, she doesn't remember any of this either.

it makes me feel like the crazy one!

i don't get why my mom doesn't remember...she's not BP, I don't think.

this is all so confusing for me.

Palak

>

> oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us,

> never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did,

> then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used

> to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her

> metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I*

> broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and

> making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us

> !!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ??

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the

> world...

> My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some

> reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally

> chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with

> objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it,

> it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not

> remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed

> the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the

> door knob made a hole in the wall).

>

> AJ

>

[Guest guest]

Re: the gaslighting about spankings - yep, me too. My mom would start in with

her verbal torrent, then back me into a corner and " loom " over me, sometimes

smacking me, sometimes not, sometimes using whatever she had in her hand - so

this wasn't a calm, calculated spanking punishment - it was just her going nutty

and coming after me. At one point I KNOW she followed me down the hall, yelling

and threatening, and backed me into the corner at the end of the hall, and I

remember cowering and being unable to get away from her (I had to be younger

than a fifth grader, because we moved from that house in fifth grade). I

remember the wood grain on the door molding. I remember the sound of her voice,

the feel of the wood, the fear. I remember this very clearly. She says it never

happened. She says she never hit me with a coat hanger. (I know she did.) For

her to do these things, then tell me years later that it never happened, that I

was making it all up - was a second type of punishment. She made me doubt my

own mind, and that was scarier than the attack itself.

I think she probably did sort of " blank out " when she was doing this stuff,

because she was totally out of control - so maybe she really doesn't remember

doing it.

When she had enough presence of mind to tell us that our father would whip us

when he got home, it was a relief. He would listen to whatever our offense was,

then put us over his knee and give us a whipping with his hand or his belt - and

I'm telling you, it was better. It was never overdone, it was never out of

control. It was what the " norm " was for physical punishment of children at the

time. Although we dreaded being punished (who wouldn't?) we much preferred that

our dad dole out the punishment - because he wasn't batshit crazy while he was

doing it, and we knew that it would have a definite ending.

I know people think you should never spank a child, and I can understand that

ideal. I can also understand that sometimes a spanking can be a way to " get

their attention " when kids are being recalcitrant or doing something that is

really dangerous or depraved (running into the street, stealing, hurting the

dog). I'm not writing to debate the spanking issue. I'm just saying - when it

was done as a formal, controlled punishment, it was a hell of a lot better than

having a grownup up go nuts and start whacking away at a kid. And when my dad

spanked us, he was fully present and knew exactly what he was doing and why -

and he never denied it later.

> >

> > oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us,

> > never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did,

> > then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used

> > to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her

> > metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I*

> > broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and

> > making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us

> > !!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ??

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the

> > world...

> > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some

> > reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally

> > chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with

> > objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it,

> > it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not

> > remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed

> > the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the

> > door knob made a hole in the wall).

> >

> > AJ

> >

>

[Guest guest]

she doesn't remember because she doesn't WANT to remember !! same reason my

father cant remember any of the horrible things my nada did to us...because

he doesn't WANT to...if he did remember, then we'd call him on why he didn't

protect us, and he'd have to explain that anything nada did was OK by him,

better she beat us then him.....he was supposed to protect us from harm and

danger, but instead he pretended nothing happened and never stopped nada..

after the beatings, nada was not nice, never loving..she was just not as bad

as before...

Jackie

OMG!!! This is my fada!!! he used to hit me starting at age 2. i have

scary memories of this. but now he acts like that never happened. that he

never hit us. he hit me much more than my brother. i was all-bad growing

up so i was singled out for all the beatings.

now, when he sees me put my daughter in time out for something she has done,

he claims that it is abusive and that he never did anything as bad as time

out to us. can you believe it??!!

he used to call me horrible names and hit for stupid reasons or no reason at

all. the tyraids used to last days. and then magically, he would be all

loving again for a day or two. i was just supposed to turn on and off

according to his mood. my mom never stepped in when he beat me, but would

cry and rescue my brother. of course, she doesn't remember any of this

either.

it makes me feel like the crazy one!

i don't get why my mom doesn't remember...she's not BP, I don't think.

this is all so confusing for me.

Palak

[Guest guest]

so is this considered abuse? i mean i am totally effed up by it.

my fada is coming over today with my mom and i'm so stressed about it. in order

to have a relationship with my mom, i have to have with fada. his birthday was

on monday and i know he expects something, but i don't want to do anything for

him. i just want to be done.

if i cut him out, my mom will stop speaking to me as well.

Palak

>

> she doesn't remember because she doesn't WANT to remember !! same reason my

> father cant remember any of the horrible things my nada did to us...because

> he doesn't WANT to...if he did remember, then we'd call him on why he didn't

> protect us, and he'd have to explain that anything nada did was OK by him,

> better she beat us then him.....he was supposed to protect us from harm and

> danger, but instead he pretended nothing happened and never stopped nada..

> after the beatings, nada was not nice, never loving..she was just not as bad

> as before...

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> OMG!!! This is my fada!!! he used to hit me starting at age 2. i have

> scary memories of this. but now he acts like that never happened. that he

> never hit us. he hit me much more than my brother. i was all-bad growing

> up so i was singled out for all the beatings.

> now, when he sees me put my daughter in time out for something she has done,

> he claims that it is abusive and that he never did anything as bad as time

> out to us. can you believe it??!!

> he used to call me horrible names and hit for stupid reasons or no reason at

> all. the tyraids used to last days. and then magically, he would be all

> loving again for a day or two. i was just supposed to turn on and off

> according to his mood. my mom never stepped in when he beat me, but would

> cry and rescue my brother. of course, she doesn't remember any of this

> either.

> it makes me feel like the crazy one!

> i don't get why my mom doesn't remember...she's not BP, I don't think.

>

> this is all so confusing for me.

>

> Palak

>

[Guest guest]

oh, that's how most of our beatings was like...it wasn't a calculated

planned out thing..it was spur of the moment..she'd go into a rage, and

start hitting whoever was near with whatever was handy !! and always denied

it...she never told our father when he came home, unless she was still angry

with us, then she'd blow it out of proportion and lie about what really

happened...and make it sound like the offender did it on purpose because

they were a horrible child !!

Jackie

Re: the gaslighting about spankings - yep, me too. My mom would start in

with her verbal torrent, then back me into a corner and " loom " over me,

sometimes smacking me, sometimes not, sometimes using whatever she had in

her hand - so this wasn't a calm, calculated spanking punishment - it was

just her going nutty and coming after me. At one point I KNOW she followed

me down the hall, yelling and threatening, and backed me into the corner at

the end of the hall, and I remember cowering and being unable to get away

from her (I had to be younger than a fifth grader, because we moved from

that house in fifth grade). I remember the wood grain on the door molding.

I remember the sound of her voice, the feel of the wood, the fear. I

remember this very clearly. She says it never happened. She says she never

hit me with a coat hanger. (I know she did.) For her to do these things,

then tell me years later that it never happened, that I was making it all

up - was a second type of punishment. She made me doubt my own mind, and

that was scarier than the attack itself.

I think she probably did sort of " blank out " when she was doing this stuff,

because she was totally out of control - so maybe she really doesn't

remember doing it.

When she had enough presence of mind to tell us that our father would whip

us when he got home, it was a relief. He would listen to whatever our

offense was, then put us over his knee and give us a whipping with his hand

or his belt - and I'm telling you, it was better. It was never overdone, it

was never out of control. It was what the " norm " was for physical

punishment of children at the time. Although we dreaded being punished (who

wouldn't?) we much preferred that our dad dole out the punishment - because

he wasn't batshit crazy while he was doing it, and we knew that it would

have a definite ending.

I know people think you should never spank a child, and I can understand

that ideal. I can also understand that sometimes a spanking can be a way to

" get their attention " when kids are being recalcitrant or doing something

that is really dangerous or depraved (running into the street, stealing,

hurting the dog). I'm not writing to debate the spanking issue. I'm just

saying - when it was done as a formal, controlled punishment, it was a hell

of a lot better than having a grownup up go nuts and start whacking away at

a kid. And when my dad spanked us, he was fully present and knew exactly

what he was doing and why - and he never denied it later.

[Guest guest]

YES !! it IS abuse..mental abuse..same fo rme..for some reason I wanted a

relationship with my faterh...but couldnt have it without having one with

nada too...he wouldnt have anything to do with me if I wasnt speaking to her

!!

Jackie

so is this considered abuse? i mean i am totally effed up by it.

my fada is coming over today with my mom and i'm so stressed about it. in

order to have a relationship with my mom, i have to have with fada. his

birthday was on monday and i know he expects something, but i don't want to

do anything for him. i just want to be done.

if i cut him out, my mom will stop speaking to me as well.

Palak

[Guest guest]

You guys are describing my nada's behaviors. She would go into rages and scream

at my little Sister and me, and we're talking red-faced, spittle-flying

tantrum/rages. She was just terrifying when she'd do that, it was as though " my

mommy " had gone away and this Thing, this Monster had replaced her. She'd grip

us by the arms and hold us close to her so we could feel the spittle hitting us,

and she'd force us to look her in her eyes which were dilated into black pits

while she hurled abuse at us, shaking us, calling us all kinds of bad names and

making us want to die with shame and hurt and scaring the crap out of us. The

emotional abuse would often include physical abuse; she'd slap us in the face,

spank us, jerk us around by the arm, and when she was really enraged she'd beat

us with dad's leather belt.

My Sister told me how one time when she was very little, nada began raging at

her and Sister actually urinated on herself out of fear, like a little animal.

That story of hers just makes me cry.

We were both quite afraid of our own mother; her rage and physical abuse

resulted in us kids submerging our own personalities, needs, and opinions to

become little robot/zombie kids.

Nada now denies ever doing any of those things; in her mind she was always the

perfect mother to us. Nada has rewritten history to make herself out to be

perfect. Nada says that little Sister and I are insane, hateful liars if we

claim she inflicted such abuses on us. Thank God that my Sister and I can

corroborate many of each other's memories of this kind of abuse. And yes, it is

technically physical and emotional abuse. Our mother inflicted severe emotional

and physical abuse on us, rather often. Sister and I are not insane, and we're

not lying, and we're not hateful, we are simply stating the truth.

Sometimes nada would just out of the blue slap my face, and did it often enough

that I developed an unconscious flinch reflex if she made a sudden and

unexpected move near me. If she actually saw me flinch, THAT would enrage nada.

" Why the hell are you doing that?! Stop it! " So as a small child, I had to

learn to control my own automatic and unconscious flinch reaction or risk

triggering more physical abuse from my nada. Sister and I had to learn to take

our abuse silently too; screaming in fear and crying would further enrage nada.

This sort of stuff is actually psychological torture. We were tortured in ways

that aren't allowed by the Geneva Convention, for heaven's sake; freaking

detained war criminals aren't supposed to be subjected to such treatment.

Children have fewer rights and less recourse to justice than war criminals.

-LOAnnie

> >

> > oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us,

> > never hit/beat/spanked/slapped us ever !! she claims later if she did,

> > then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used

> > to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used her

> > metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because *I*

> > broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and

> > making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against us

> > !!!???...hm...why is it my siblings remember these things as well as I do ??

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the

> > world...

> > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some

> > reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally

> > chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with

> > objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it,

> > it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not

> > remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed

> > the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the

> > door knob made a hole in the wall).

> >

> > AJ

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This rings a bell with me. I was an only child and when I asked my nada if she

named me after a friend, or any story about why she named me. She stated she

didn't know, she could not remember. Another way to emotionally abuse me.

aaaarrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhh

May we all heal

> >

> > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the

world...

> > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some

reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would literally

chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with objects in

her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with it, it was just a

means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not remember any of

it....not even making the hole in the wall because I closed the bedroom door on

her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and the door knob made a hole

in the wall).

> >

> > AJ

> >

> > ---> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I'm sorry for what you are going through. I understand how you have grief and

aloneness on top of it. I also live alone, and it is a lot harder than I thought

it would be. Sometimes I can hardly stand it that I want to rush back to the

madness of the FOO.

I am sorry that these doctors you are seeing are so unsympathetic. It is so hard

to read this and to feel the pain you are going through. I can only imagine.

I do indeed see why you wouldn't be able to go to another job. It would solve

nothing, and you would love your compensation.

I will pray for you and I will pray for me. Being alone at this time must be so

difficult for you. I can definitely relate.

Take care.

Joy

> >

> > Hi ,

> > Thank you for your compassion about my pain/injury. I had a fall at work on

my left butt and then I work in this sort of left facing way, bending and

lifting. It has loosened my S-I joint which is not supposed to move. First I

went to my doctor, he sent me to the chiropractor and I went there for weeks,

then to a specialist (first back to the doctor). That specialist prescribed P/T

for twelve visits. I had a trip planned in between that, and when I got back I

went to four visits and then they said: oh that is all you are covered for.

Went back to specialist she gives me a shot (no x-ray) and says come back. But

she also says: well what do you want me to do? She won't give me a no-working

note. Why? And why ask me what do I want her to do? Meanwhile dealing with

workers comp insurance, getting approvals etc.

> >

> > I go away and shot doesn't work come back and dr says; I don't know what to

do for you. We can do an MRI because your x-rays are fine. Am *I* the doctor?

Have I studied for years this stuff? Am *I* the only one who has unrelenting

pain because of work? She tells me I should find another job. I said: what?

Am I supposed to leave a job where I have a claim (I would lose my claim if I

leave, there is a protocol); limp away? To what? Another job that aggravates

my sacrum but can get no workers comp or insurance or time off with pay?

> > How out of touch can these people be?

> >

> > I went back to my dr and he sends me (for some reason as the last resort??)

to a spine specialist. This guy explains to me exactly what is wrong and why I

need an injection with an x-ray. I am so grateful to finally understand what is

wrong with me, why the brace I had before did not work, etc. Finally relieved

to have a plan. So I call his reception to give information for insurance

approval and asked for pain medication because the night before I was dying in

pain. And I am alone here, no one to massage my legs and butt area where it

hurts so bad. Ibuprofen doesn't work. I make the mistake of saying alcohol

helps it.

> >

> > So I am taking a nap and the phone goes off and I answer because of all

these insurance and dr calls i have out. The new dr says: I don't understand

why you are asking me for painkillers, like, why now? You have had this injury

since june of 09. You've seen me one time and you are asking me now? (his

concern of course is that I am using him to get narcotics and then going t my

reg dr saying my script ran out and can i get more).

> >

> > Well he does not know me at all! And I was like a deer in headlights. I

asked myself: why now? And I couldn't articulate that I felt like I was finally

with the right doctor who could help me get a hold on this really painful

condition. That I normally tolerate pain and endure a lot of pain (probably

sounds familiar to a lot of people here). How could I tell him that I am having

a hard time managing EVERYthing in my life because I am going through intense

complicated grief at the same time and this pain is wearing me down?

> >

> > All while he is having this weird accusing tone? When he was so nice in the

office. He says: don't take ibuprofen it could cause bleeding in the stomach.

And alcohol is bad too. I will call your dr and ask him. He calls back later

and leaves a message saying: your doctor said no.

> > You should talk to him. I call my dr's nurse and she says: he says you

should talk to your actual primary dr. (Who is usually not easy to get into see

because he started another practice doing laser). WTF!! Talk about triggering

issues of pain not being taken care of!

> >

> > My pain, as a child, was never never addressed. I had some accidents and

was never held and shushhed. My father (the non emotional one) always took me

to the dr or hospital for stitches. Our dentist did not use novacaine on us. I

have a huge avoidance to dental work now. Even though I need it. Even if just

a cleaning.

> > And now, here I am suffering and they are acting like I am a druggie. My

sister died from that!

> >

> > My reaction is to go into victim, sad mode. Poor me. But I have people

encouraging me to get mad and demand help (these are guys). But I will say

something when I get my shot; I have this fear that he won't help me now. It

has added to my stress in life in a way I did not need at all.

> >

> > Sorry this is long; i probably am repeating myself. But I just can't

believe it! (Although when I went to the gynecologist and told her that I feel

during PMS i am almost suicidal, which is not normal; normally I am just bitchy,

she looked at me blankly. She said: I can put you on the pill but only for

three years (til 50); and I don't do well with the pill at all, it makes me

depressed. She mentioned antidepressants (drs must be glad to be able to go to

that and send you away) and pretty much left the room)

> >

> > I really can understand now what my sister went through with her doctor

situation; the judgments they had, the unwillingness to understand her life and

how to really help her. Ironically, I have barely done drugs in my life. I

drink now at night, because it is the only thing that helps my sadness and pain,

the ONLY thing. I have one, maybe two drinks. That is it. I live alone, have

incredible grief, have a child who needs help in school but is being

> > refused (illegally in my opinion) and I have bad pain in the area of my body

that keeps me from doing what usually helps me which is hiking and dancing. (Dr

told me the only thing I could do is tread water...pay ten dollars a shot to go

in a pool somewhere...where I don't know to tread water)

> >

> > I want to get into Public Health because I want to help people in a way that

actually helps. But maybe I should educate doctors ...I wonder if that is an

aspect of public health that I could get hired for....

> > Now there is an idea!

> > If you read this long, thank you

> > ~patricia

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Lawson talks about this in Understanding the Borderline Mother.

It's part of crazy-making behavior too. The way they twist things to try to

make you feel like you're the crazy one...the liar....the bad one making up

lies about the wonderful mother!

<gag>

My mother did this too. She also would minimize things she did...laugh it

off (which really made me mad)....and joke about it. She would either claim

she was playing around or claim it was no big deal.

Like, if I told her something I didn't want her to repeat (I have no idea

why I fell into the trap of telling her crap, but I did), she would always,

always repeat it and when I'd confront her, she'd say something like --

" Oh, well, so-and-so didn't care that I told it. She thought it was funny. "

Or... " Well, I felt like she needed to know. "

Ugh!!!!

Some of that falls into how the waif borderline tells inappropriate things

about themselves and then walks off with an air of indifference.

In a message dated 4/27/2010 4:06:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

sleddog@... writes:

oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against us,

never hit/beat/spanked/never hit/beat/spanked/<WBR>slapped us ever !! she c

then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she used

to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she used

her

metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me because

*I*

broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean and

making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself against

us

!!!???...hm.!!!???...hm.<WBR>..why is it my siblings remember these things

a

Jackie

I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the

world...

My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For some

reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would

literally

chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with

objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything with

it,

it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not

remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I

closed

the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open and

the

door knob made a hole in the wall).

AJ

[Guest guest]

Wow.

Speaking of names. My mother made weird claims about my name, which is

spelled . First she claimed she named me after someone she went to high

school with who was soooo beautiful and she loved this person

(all-good)....but when she was mad, she claimed she named me after my dad's

mother (who

she despised but never met -- go figure--all-bad), whose name was spelled

.

She would alternate between telling me how she had wished she had named me

something else because it was ugly to how lucky I was to have such a

'perfect' name.

In a message dated 4/27/2010 5:05:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

charlottehoneychurch@... writes:

My nada gaslighted extensively with my (real) NAME, which is an unusual

one. It really freaks me out. When I got old enough to be interested in the

origins of my name, she told me I was named after a particular Saint. This

Saint had an interesting life, and for several years I told people the story

of this intereting person whom I was named after. But when I did this in

nada's company, she denied that and said oh, no, it was just a list of baby

names contained in the back of her Bible. The next time the subject came up,

she said it was just a piece of paper someone had PUT in her Bible...then

it became someone else's Bible entirely, and the next time she had me fully

split black and insisted she had 'no idea' and couldn't remember.

My nada is a grown-up, has graduated high school and college and has no IQ

disability. This was pure crazy-making. There was a lot of gaslighting of

course, but this particular subject really gets to me.

> > > >

> > > > What are your most notable and infuriating cases of gaslighting

from

> > nada?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mine were

> > > >

> > > > Money. Somehow nada could never recall anytime I gave her money.

> > > >

> > > > She took my dad and uncle to court over money she supposedly didnt

> > get in child support. My uncle had paid her out of the business that

> > they ran together. Nada insisted that it was her pay from working

there.

> > Problem? She never worked there a day. I would know, because I worked

> > there. But she became convinced that she had recieved those checks as a

> > salary. She got really angry at the judge when he called her a liar.

> > > >

> > > > She was in nursing school while I was in high school and dropped

> > out. We never did find out why. But her story for a while was that it

> > was so I could get a cap and gown for graduation. That was nonsense,

> > because I was working and could pay for it myself, and my dad or any of

> > several uncles would have given me the money had I asked. When I argued

> > that story with her, it began to change, and then it became that she

> > dropped out to get a job and keep me from quitting high school.

> > > > Problem? After she dropped out , she didnt get a job until long

> > after I was gone and in the Navy. Also, I never seriously considered

> > dropping out, but did tell her once , once mind you, that maybe I

should

> > do that and work full time to support us, since she had squandered her

> > divorce settlement, lost 2 jobs, and didnt seem highly motivated to get

> > one. She turned that into a self sacrificing gaslight story about how

> > she gave up her career in nursing just to keep me in school.

> > > > Of course , how sick is that? 17 year olds should not be the ones

> > working to suppoort a 36 yo mother.

> > > >

> > > > The story evolved again after a while till she had dropped out

> > because the director of the school had it in for her because I had

dated

> > but not married her daughter! But we were still in High School when all

> > this happened.

> > > >

> > > > And they wonder why we doubt reality.

> > > >

> > > > So, guys. What are your crazy gaslighing stories.

> > > >

> > > > Doug

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, that is awful what you experienced. Your mother very much falls into

the Witch Borderline.

My mother did have those tendancies too. I've never even told my therapist

some of the things my mother did. I can remember things all the way back to

potty training. She used to tell me I had to go to the bathroom (even when

I didn't) and then make me sit there for forever. If I wouldn't go, she

would do things like tell me she was leaving without me (get her purse and

even slam the door like she was leaving). It made me terrified. On one or

two occasions I went in my pants, she put the wet (or other things) pants

on my head, in my face, in my MOUTH. Ugh. :(

She screamed at me at the oddest times. I was afraid to ask for a drink or

something to eat. I would sometimes sneak into the bathroom and drink from

the sink. She told me I was stupid and that nobody would ever love me. She

told me she wished she wasn't my mother. She hit, she slapped, she pinched,

she pushed, pulled, jerked me around.

Then I remember when I was about 7 she hit me on the outside of my thighs

until there were bruises. I hadn't even really done anything that bad. Gave

her 'a look' she didn't like. When it was over she kept me up for hours

and then kept me home from school...I guess so no one would notice. She

would, on very rare occasions, decide she was regretful and turn around and act

nice and try to talk nicer to me for a few hours. Almost like she couldn't

even tell I was a real person.

I don't even like talking about it. It makes me so upset.

In a message dated 4/28/2010 12:19:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

You guys are describing my nada's behaviors. She would go into rages and

scream at my little Sister and me, and we're talking red-faced,

spittle-flying tantrum/rages. She was just terrifying when she'd do that, it

was as

though " my mommy " had gone away and this Thing, this Monster had replaced her.

She'd grip us by the arms and hold us close to her so we could feel the

spittle hitting us, and she'd force us to look her in her eyes which were

dilated into black pits while she hurled abuse at us, shaking us, calling us

all kinds of bad names and making us want to die with shame and hurt and

scaring the crap out of us. The emotional abuse would often include physical

abuse; she'd slap us in the face, spank us, jerk us around by the arm, and

when she was really enraged she'd beat us with dad's leather belt.

My Sister told me how one time when she was very little, nada began raging

at her and Sister actually urinated on herself out of fear, like a little

animal. That story of hers just makes me cry.

We were both quite afraid of our own mother; her rage and physical abuse

resulted in us kids submerging our own personalities, needs, and opinions to

become little robot/zombie kids.

Nada now denies ever doing any of those things; in her mind she was always

the perfect mother to us. Nada has rewritten history to make herself out

to be perfect. Nada says that little Sister and I are insane, hateful liars

if we claim she inflicted such abuses on us. Thank God that my Sister and I

can corroborate many of each other's memories of this kind of abuse. And

yes, it is technically physical and emotional abuse. Our mother inflicted

severe emotional and physical abuse on us, rather often. Sister and I are not

insane, and we're not lying, and we're not hateful, we are simply stating

the truth.

Sometimes nada would just out of the blue slap my face, and did it often

enough that I developed an unconscious flinch reflex if she made a sudden

and unexpected move near me. If she actually saw me flinch, THAT would enrage

nada. " Why the hell are you doing that?! Stop it! " So as a small child, I

had to learn to control my own automatic and unconscious flinch reaction or

risk triggering more physical abuse from my nada. Sister and I had to

learn to take our abuse silently too; screaming in fear and crying would

further enrage nada.

This sort of stuff is actually psychological torture. We were tortured in

ways that aren't allowed by the Geneva Convention, for heaven's sake;

freaking detained war criminals aren't supposed to be subjected to such

treatment. Children have fewer rights and less recourse to justice than war

criminals.

-LOAnnie

> >

> > oh, this is my nada too !! she claims she never raised a hand against

us,

> > never hit/beat/spanked/ never hit/beat/spanked/<WBR>slapped us ever

> > then we had it coming...then she goes back to we were never hit...she

used

> > to use my fathers belt, a wooden mixing spoon from the kitchen..she

used her

> > metal hair brush on me, and broke it, then threatened to kill me

because *I*

> > broke it...she claims none of this happened, and I'm just being mean

and

> > making things up, then she claims she was just defending herself

against us

> > !!!???...hm. !!!???...hm.<WBR>..why is it my siblings remember these

things

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > I love this topic because it makes me feel like I am not alone in the

> > world...

> > My gaslighting is any abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. For

some

> > reason, my nada does not recall ANY of these instances. She would

literally

> > chase me because I would run away from her as a child, sometimes with

> > objects in her hand like a knife or a belt. She never did anything

with it,

> > it was just a means of mental torture. Of course, nada and fada do not

> > remember any of it....not even making the hole in the wall because I

closed

> > the bedroom door on her to try to get away (she kicked the door open

and the

> > door knob made a hole in the wall).

> >

> > AJ

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My mother did this too. If I flinched, she ridiculed me and asked me why I

was flinching. I wonder!

She would also put me in cold showers when she was mad and demand for me

to stop shivering...laugh at me and ask me why I was shivering because 'it

isn't that cold!' Umm, if my lips were blue, it was COLD.

In a message dated 4/28/2010 12:19:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

Sometimes nada would just out of the blue slap my face, and did it often

enough that I developed an unconscious flinch reflex if she made a sudden

and unexpected move near me. If she actually saw me flinch, THAT would enrage

nada. " Why the hell are you doing that?! Stop it! " So as a small child, I

had to learn to control my own automatic and unconscious flinch reaction or

risk triggering more physical abuse from my nada. Sister and I had to learn

to take our abuse silently too; screaming in fear and crying would further

enrage nada.

[Guest guest]

your mother was a horrible sick person !! I'm so glad you did not inherit

BPD !!! she was SO cruel !!

Jackie

Annie, that is awful what you experienced. Your mother very much falls into

the Witch Borderline.

My mother did have those tendancies too. I've never even told my therapist

some of the things my mother did. I can remember things all the way back to

potty training. She used to tell me I had to go to the bathroom (even when

I didn't) and then make me sit there for forever. If I wouldn't go, she

would do things like tell me she was leaving without me (get her purse and

even slam the door like she was leaving). It made me terrified. On one

or

two occasions I went in my pants, she put the wet (or other things) pants

on my head, in my face, in my MOUTH. Ugh. :(

She screamed at me at the oddest times. I was afraid to ask for a drink or

something to eat. I would sometimes sneak into the bathroom and drink from

the sink. She told me I was stupid and that nobody would ever love me. She

told me she wished she wasn't my mother. She hit, she slapped, she pinched,

she pushed, pulled, jerked me around.

Then I remember when I was about 7 she hit me on the outside of my thighs

until there were bruises. I hadn't even really done anything that bad. Gave

her 'a look' she didn't like. When it was over she kept me up for hours

and then kept me home from school...I guess so no one would notice. She

would, on very rare occasions, decide she was regretful and turn around and

act

nice and try to talk nicer to me for a few hours. Almost like she couldn't

even tell I was a real person.

I don't even like talking about it. It makes me so upset.

[Guest guest]

Oh, Annie, I remember being the terrified little child not knowing what was

going on, but being totally afraid of my own mother !! Nada would grab us

by the arms and pull us up close, and talk in a low, nasty voice with

clenched teeth and " that look " in her eye...of pure hate...nada would do the

same as your did, jeck us around by an arm, or our hair, shake us hard so we

nearly vomited on her and telling us she wished we were dead....and now she

wonders why none of us send her mothers day cards/gifts !!! of course she

denie doing any of this...she says she was a perfect mother, caring, loving

....

Jackie

You guys are describing my nada's behaviors. She would go into rages and

scream at my little Sister and me, and we're talking red-faced,

spittle-flying tantrum/rages. She was just terrifying when she'd do that,

it was as

though " my mommy " had gone away and this Thing, this Monster had replaced

her.

She'd grip us by the arms and hold us close to her so we could feel the

spittle hitting us, and she'd force us to look her in her eyes which were

dilated into black pits while she hurled abuse at us, shaking us, calling

us

all kinds of bad names and making us want to die with shame and hurt and

scaring the crap out of us. The emotional abuse would often include

physical

abuse; she'd slap us in the face, spank us, jerk us around by the arm, and

when she was really enraged she'd beat us with dad's leather belt.

My Sister told me how one time when she was very little, nada began raging

at her and Sister actually urinated on herself out of fear, like a little

animal. That story of hers just makes me cry.

We were both quite afraid of our own mother; her rage and physical abuse

resulted in us kids submerging our own personalities, needs, and opinions

to

become little robot/zombie kids.

Nada now denies ever doing any of those things; in her mind she was always

the perfect mother to us. Nada has rewritten history to make herself out

to be perfect. Nada says that little Sister and I are insane, hateful liars

if we claim she inflicted such abuses on us. Thank God that my Sister and I

can corroborate many of each other's memories of this kind of abuse. And

yes, it is technically physical and emotional abuse. Our mother inflicted

severe emotional and physical abuse on us, rather often. Sister and I are

not

insane, and we're not lying, and we're not hateful, we are simply stating

the truth.

Sometimes nada would just out of the blue slap my face, and did it often

enough that I developed an unconscious flinch reflex if she made a sudden

and unexpected move near me. If she actually saw me flinch, THAT would

enrage

nada. " Why the hell are you doing that?! Stop it! " So as a small child, I

had to learn to control my own automatic and unconscious flinch reaction or

risk triggering more physical abuse from my nada. Sister and I had to

learn to take our abuse silently too; screaming in fear and crying would

further enrage nada.

This sort of stuff is actually psychological torture. We were tortured in

ways that aren't allowed by the Geneva Convention, for heaven's sake;

freaking detained war criminals aren't supposed to be subjected to such

treatment. Children have fewer rights and less recourse to justice than war

criminals.

-LOAnnie

[Guest guest]

People who mistreat little children the way you and I and my Sister and others

here were treated, are way, WAY too disturbed to be allowed to raise children in

my opinion. We should have been removed from our nadas for our own safety and

emotional well-being.

Unfortunately, the children of high-functioning bpd " Witch " -type nadas are just

plain screwed; these types of nadas are careful enough and in-control enough to

not batter us so severely that we need medical treatment, but the emotional

abuse is still very severe. I suspect that my little Sister and I were made to

go to bed really early rather often so that we'd be " asleep " when dad got home;

nada didn't want him seeing that we'd been crying or see the bruises and welts

on our bodies.

Only a concerned neighbor who hears the screaming and investigates, or the other

parent or a relative who suspects and investigates has a chance of doing

anything about it. From the posts here, it seems like that has a

one-in-a-thousand chance of happening.

Its just a tragedy that the children of the mentally ill are the ones who take

the brunt of the abuse and suffer the most damage from it.

But we're still here, and where there is life, their is hope of change and

improvement and joy.

-Annie

>

> Annie, that is awful what you experienced. Your mother very much falls into

> the Witch Borderline.

>

> My mother did have those tendancies too. I've never even told my therapist

> some of the things my mother did. I can remember things all the way back to

> potty training. She used to tell me I had to go to the bathroom (even when

> I didn't) and then make me sit there for forever. If I wouldn't go, she

> would do things like tell me she was leaving without me (get her purse and

> even slam the door like she was leaving). It made me terrified. On one or

> two occasions I went in my pants, she put the wet (or other things) pants

> on my head, in my face, in my MOUTH. Ugh. :(

>

> She screamed at me at the oddest times. I was afraid to ask for a drink or

> something to eat. I would sometimes sneak into the bathroom and drink from

> the sink. She told me I was stupid and that nobody would ever love me. She

> told me she wished she wasn't my mother. She hit, she slapped, she pinched,

> she pushed, pulled, jerked me around.

>

> Then I remember when I was about 7 she hit me on the outside of my thighs

> until there were bruises. I hadn't even really done anything that bad. Gave

> her 'a look' she didn't like. When it was over she kept me up for hours

> and then kept me home from school...I guess so no one would notice. She

> would, on very rare occasions, decide she was regretful and turn around and

act

> nice and try to talk nicer to me for a few hours. Almost like she couldn't

> even tell I was a real person.

>

> I don't even like talking about it. It makes me so upset.

>

>

[Guest guest]

More torture of the type that even incarcerated criminals are not supposed to be

subjected to, by law. That just makes my blood boil, its pure torture to do

that to another human being who is too little and weak to defend herself. Its

sadistic bullying behavior, its criminal child abuse and its pure evil, in my

opinion. Grrrr!!

-Annie

>

> My mother did this too. If I flinched, she ridiculed me and asked me why I

> was flinching. I wonder!

>

> She would also put me in cold showers when she was mad and demand for me

> to stop shivering...laugh at me and ask me why I was shivering because 'it

> isn't that cold!' Umm, if my lips were blue, it was COLD.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, the nada's ability to totally rewrite history is amazing. How nice for the

nadas that they have no memories of all the hurt, fear, guilt, shame and damage

they inflicted on helpless little children who were totally and abjectly

dependent on them and wanted nothing more in the world than their mother's

approval and love.

-Annie

>

> Oh, Annie, I remember being the terrified little child not knowing what was

> going on, but being totally afraid of my own mother !! Nada would grab us

> by the arms and pull us up close, and talk in a low, nasty voice with

> clenched teeth and " that look " in her eye...of pure hate...nada would do the

> same as your did, jeck us around by an arm, or our hair, shake us hard so we

> nearly vomited on her and telling us she wished we were dead....and now she

> wonders why none of us send her mothers day cards/gifts !!! of course she

> denie doing any of this...she says she was a perfect mother, caring, loving

> ...

>

>

> Jackie

[Guest guest]

I totally agree...our nadas are " with it " enough to know how to avoid

being caught !!

Jackie

People who mistreat little children the way you and I and my Sister and

others here were treated, are way, WAY too disturbed to be allowed to raise

children in my opinion. We should have been removed from our nadas for our

own safety and emotional well-being.

Unfortunately, the children of high-functioning bpd " Witch " -type nadas are

just plain screwed; these types of nadas are careful enough and in-control

enough to not batter us so severely that we need medical treatment, but the

emotional abuse is still very severe. I suspect that my little Sister and I

were made to go to bed really early rather often so that we'd be " asleep "

when dad got home; nada didn't want him seeing that we'd been crying or see

the bruises and welts on our bodies.

Only a concerned neighbor who hears the screaming and investigates, or the

other parent or a relative who suspects and investigates has a chance of

doing anything about it. From the posts here, it seems like that has a

one-in-a-thousand chance of happening.

Its just a tragedy that the children of the mentally ill are the ones who

take the brunt of the abuse and suffer the most damage from it.

But we're still here, and where there is life, their is hope of change and

improvement and joy.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

so when is pay back ?? when will they ever be " punished " for what they did

to us ??

Jackie

Yes, the nada's ability to totally rewrite history is amazing. How nice for

the nadas that they have no memories of all the hurt, fear, guilt, shame and

damage they inflicted on helpless little children who were totally and

abjectly dependent on them and wanted nothing more in the world than their

mother's approval and love.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

thanks Doug, I had been NC until my father took a turn for the worse...then

I allowered her back in, but now that he's in a nursing home, I havents have

contact since march 5th

Jackie

I know. It hurts. I m not looking forward to this, the first Mothers Day

since my nada died. Pain is real. Part of your pain my be no more

contact, since every one is a painful attack. Sometimes it is helpful

to find a wise and compassionate person, who will build a relationship

with you as sort of a Spiritual Mother. Not bio, you can t replace

that, and not childhood mother, those days are gone, but a caring

heart.

Find someone you can talk to who won t attack you. You can t change

nada. Only yourself.

Hugs,

Doug

[Guest guest]

I don't remember who, but I remember reading a post here a couple of days ago.

It said that the gas lighting, and history rewriting is so painful, they can't

interact with their FOO.

The idea of having my reality invalidated: I had been reading it and hearing it

from my therapist for almost a year,i.e.

" Your FOO didn't validate your emotions, and you FADA gaslighting invalidated

your reality " ,

I understood what they meant, but it didn't emotionally click. Thanks to your

post it now has emotionally clicked. My experience growing up being constantly

gaslighted was emotionally painful.

[Guest guest]

,talk about having to know how to make it through many of the situations

we are confronted with...It's true unfortunately that many people don't care if

one is nice (or only to the extent that they can get something for themselves

out of a " nice " person)...I have a respect for kindness in and of itself but

many people (not only those with a personality disorder) only use seeming

" kindness " to prompt others to do their bidding.Not everyone of course but I

think a clue that you're dealing with someone like that is if they wonder *why*

you're being " so nice " ,since they themselves need a reason to be so: it doesn't

just issue naturally from them...

The other thing is (at least in management,but I suppose also in life in

general) is that some people want to be respected more and others want more to

be liked.In business you're *supposed* to ask yourself which of these is your

more pressing need and to deal with others accordingly.I think that deep down I

prefer to be liked more than respected but there must be something about how I

project myself that makes the people I work with want more to respect me and

then be glad that they can also like me,so I've had to start with establishing

respect first then communicate that I can also be likeable.My boss (also female)

sends out mixed messages about wanting to be liked confused with wanting to be

respected and then some people don't quite trust her or her motives and she has

some problems with maintaining authority.I don't know why that is with me,that

often the people who work under me really want me to establish that they must

respect me first,but I think many people have " authoritarian complexes " from the

way they were raised,not just KOs...like trying to like someone first is too

much for them,demands too much and it's easier for them to apprehend needing to

respect a superior and being " grateful " if they can actually like

them,too.It's...kind of depressing really...It makes me feel like we live in

this simian world--when I have aggravation at work I will think to myself: It's

just monkeys swinging in the trees...thumping their chests and beaming eachother

with rotten fruit...simian posturing...

I didn't have a very good time last Saturday night at

dinner,actually.I was hoping I'd get past it,but I didn't.Something broke in me

last weekend...I had had to really concentrate during those stupid meetings

because I've been having some weird mind gaps lately...then (to me,inexplicably)

the CEO of the corrupt corporation I work for took me aside to let me know that

there is an executive position that is open is his offices and he encouraged me

to apply.I don't work for a little middling company,but a major one nationally

and having the CEO invite me to formally apply for that position meant I had an

in if I could prove it to him and also *money*...and anyone else I guess would

have been pissing themselves for joy but all I could think was: no...This isn't

what I want.And all this pressure...my boss asking me later if I was going to

apply and expecting me to be all psyched...I don't quite get what the hell it is

these people see in me...Yes,I *could* do it,but I just don't really CARE...It's

funny how much more of a presence we seem to be to others when we don't actually

effing CARE.

I want to use whatever abilities I have for something better than

this--because I feel that what I'd do in this corporation in simply exploitative

and pointless.I also know what I'm going through internally,all this trauma

stuff that keeps coming up to deal with,and I am faking it at work.It disgusts

me,frankly,that this faking it is seen as worthy of promotion...all the

phoniness and like I said,simian posturing...for what.I mean,really.To what real

purpose.

And then I came home and I couldn't have an open and honest discussion

about this with my girlfriend.She doesn't understand why I'd reject such an

offer of money and prestige.She thinks I am crazy to want to study for a lowly

LPN degree after I've put in all this time in the business world and am getting

somewhere with it.Her lack of understanding and support has demoralized

me--which yes I let happen,but still...your partner should be the one who

understands where you're going and why,right? Shouldn't they?

So we went out to dinner and I felt like I couldn't even mention what

had happened up in NYC.And it's hard to get reservations for that restaurant on

a weekend and we'd had them for a while (with some friends) and she grew up

having to force herself to perform and didn't/doesn't get something like me

wanting to bow out of some stupid dinner reservation...and the people we went

out with totally wouldn't have gotten that the CEO encouraged me to apply for

some corrupt executive position and I was not honored by that,like it would be

ridiculous not to be...So I'm alone in my thoughts about this and I'm stewing in

them...and the whole going out to dinner seems hollow and meaningless too.

My girlfriend was demoted (by me) from the status of " partner " to the

status of mere " girlfriend " about last October when I went back into therapy and

she couldn't believe I really " had " anything like Dissociative Identity Disorder

because I seemed to be coping--and she needed me to be coping for HER--why was I

letting the therapist influence me like that,to think that about myself? She

didn't want to meet with my therapist to discuss it,at all.She never did.

And something like being encouraged by the CEO no less to pursue this

potential promotion would be,to her,more " proof " that I'm fine and that I'm only

making myself miserable wanting to think I have DID.So I didn't tell her about

it,although I needed to talk about it.

And then it was hot last Saturday,the first really hot day of the year.I

have an issue with the first hot days of the year,every year.It reminds me of

the first time I was gang raped,at five,during the summer.I don't want this to

happen--I never do,I am TIRED of it--but those first hot days send me into a

spiral of self loathing that is very intense.I have tried to will it

away,distract myself,but so far to no avail.I just have to adjust to it,every

year.It really bothers me.

The first year we were together,I told her this.Then the second year,I

had to remind her.I'm glad she doesn't have to think about these things and to

feel like this.But the third year? Must I have to remind her AGAIN?

Because on last Saturday,we set out on an errand run and I was fine at

first,but as the day got hotter,it started to creep up on me,that intense self

loathing.Too much was coming up.I got to the point where I *needed* to be able

to say: I need to be alone,I need to be left alone...

And when I said that I *needed* to not go out to dinner,I got: But

we've had these reservations for such a long time and you're not saying you want

me to go alone...as if everything was fine...and I RESENTED having to remind her

AGAIN why I *needed* to be left alone in my own safe space...and not having

really shared what my week had been like work wise for fear of being judged...

What I have loved about her is that she really is a positive person who

loves life...she has often made me feel alive,vital,renewed...like I can find my

way with her to a place beyond the past where I can be free and happy...I love

her ease of living,the way she can laugh at herself,her light philosophy and

lack of gloom...but when something is really pressing on me,like the flashbacks

I get from the first hot weather,I feel alone in it.I do not feel partnered and

the self hatred I feel really takes me on a trip...

I pretended to enjoy that dinner,but...I waited a couple of days for it

all to settle and you know what,I still feel misunderstood and I still feel

down.I was SO tempted to tell her that I need us to have a separation for a

while yet I hated myself for thinking like that--this reflexive throwing the

baby out with the bathwater...It's like,when it's good with us,it's

wonderful...but when there is a glitch or something too serious for her to

handle,it's awful--for *me*...

I'd just take all of this to my therapist but it seems to me that I

should at least be able to say something to my supposed girlfriend that would be

*heard*--what's the use of having a relationship if you're gagged in it for the

stuff that gets to you the most? It all starts to seem more like a day trip

you're taking on a lark than a harbor you are returning to at the end of the

voyage where you can fix your anchor and *stay*...

I want to end up having a good time,someday...somehow...Sorry for the

long vent.It sucks being a KO at times.Just does.

>

> Hi ,

> That is funny about Sun Tzu; we must be on a wavelength. There is also a

business book for women: The Art of War For Women. I think things like this are

valuable in the sense that out in the world, people do not necessarily care if

one is a nice person or had this or that trouble and we have to know how to make

it through many of the situations we are confronted with.

> I watched a program on The Art of War and I enjoyed it a lot. I wish I could

study more carefully and remember the tactics.

> Ah well....some day.

>

> The hormonal stuff...well I don't like the *dull* feeling. Today my ex

husband was here (he is doing some work in my house for which I am paying him)

and he seems happy and content; he has a girlfriend and he even said he is

content. I cannot help that I feel a bit of something. Is it envy, bitterness,

shame? I am not sure. Perhaps all those things. I do think in many contexts

it is tougher for women in middle age (especially single divorced moms ) given

the decline in hormones and what seems to be a difficulty in finding a good

partner. It could just be the women I know, and the men I know. But I feel I

have lost a resilience that I used to have. I used to feel bad but then bounce

back. I don't like having to wait til it balances out because I know it could

be years! I don't want this for years. It would be different I suppose if

I were in a safe, stable relationship; I am guessing.

>

> There is the added stress of dealing with mom and her problems with old age;

though she seems better for now. She called me because she had not heard from

me and was worried. But I was just feeling too sad to call. But for the first

time we talked a bit about our sadness over my sister's death. That was good.

I worry about my sister's children, but the older daughter is there to take care

of things. So I can let that go for awhile.

> I have lost, I think, a lot of my anger at my mom and my wishes or sadness

around my childhood has sunk into a deep well somewhere in my psyche. Perhaps

some alchemy will take place and I will emerge from this place transformed. But

I have no idea. I feel sad when I think of how things ended for my sister; and

how the lives of my brother and I seem hard in the realms of finance and

relationships. It makes me feel I have some kind of curse on me. I hope that

is not true.

>

> Anyway, I hope your dinner was not too intolerable Did you end up having a

good time after all?

> ~patricia

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I can see you are in a difficult place right now with your job; but it's a good

place too because it seems like you have some options. Plus you have some good

experience. Your girlfriend, you stated, has definite cultural needs for

security and I guess if you want to keep her in your life for a long time,

(saying if you choose that) then you might want to get her to see that an LPN is

a secure job, especially with your background. Because you could have many

other opportunities come along that you will like. (I think I mentioned I

wanted to get into public health because I felt it would give me some purposeful

opportunities).

On the other hand, she must confront that she has to also provide her own sense

of security. That really is a bottom line with all of us (even with a typical

married couple, the woman at home better make sure she has her own retirement

account! Which I never did, though I do have one it is small as hell! And I may

have to cash it in to make it through the summer and get on towards schooling).

It's funny, we must be on a wavelength. I was talking to my son about respect

yesterday. He left something at his dad's and wanted me to pick it up while I

was out. I said okay but called his dad first (because he dad hates it when I

go in that house without him knowing, which I can understand better now, but at

first was hard to respect since it was/used to be *my* house) . My son thought

I was being stupid for that and his dad was being a wimp. I said: Listen one of

the things your dad needs is to feel respected for HIS needs. And that is one

of them. And I said: I need to get along well with him right now and it's good

if he trusts me, so that is why I did it. Sure it's a bit manipulative on my

part (because if he has goodwill towards me, then he will help me out with

things at this house that I cannot do) But at the same time, I want to have that

integrity in myself; something I let slide in many areas.

It's an insecurity in me ~ that passive aggressive thing I use rather than let

my feelings and needs out risking rejection or a turn down.

I get what you are saying about the corporate business world and I hope you get

out of it. You have a way too deep and caring sensitivity to waste it there.

My job is in that corporate world but low level retail; and I have always hated

that because the people on the line have to deal with dumb decisions from up

above. Plus like you said, there is a lot of difficulties in getting a long and

mixed messages (my ex therapist does something called Drama works (they have a

website btw) which was psycho drama plays for companies to help them uncover

this kind of stuff, it was the basis of a lot of the therapy work we did and was

fun and helpful)

So yeah, your partner does need to be there for you...sometimes he/she can't.

Right? But many times it is through a lack of communication and growth. Does

the partner want to be sensitive to the other and check in or try to understand

, or does she want to cling to her own fears. It's tough and I think it is

something most people avoid. I know I have. But I am seeing how that ends up

making me miserable. And like you said: demoralized. Which is how I feel

today.

Sorry about 'the first hot day' day. Can you just sort of let it sink into you

and let yourself have your feelings, let them pass through you? I really don't

know. But if nothing else works.

It is a growth in ourselves when these things begin to leave us; and sometimes,

and I am not sure if this is true, offensive or what, we cling on some level to

these things to protect ourselves. I have to say that a lot of my issues over

being molested when I was around 11/12 and raped by those boys (while sleeping)

and raped by a *boyfriend* with my best friend present and encouraging (not

helping me) ...have disappeared. It may be because of Khasha and his open

sexuality with me. We have a similar sexuality and he allows me to express it

in myself. And his compassion for me; he sees me as a *doll* sometimes, or like

I am his daughter. Seems weird maybe, but when he is in that place, he takes

care of me. In a way I never experienced before. He does not understand what I

went through. But I think I can understand what he went through and it is hard

for him to let me comfort him, but I do listen.

So...I don't know the details with your girl friend. You can see the *good* and

you see the *ugly* and it's a question of what you want to deal with. If you

love her and she loves you, you can try to discuss this when it is not happening

(you probably have). See if she wants to work it out....not as a demand on her

(demands seem to make people go the other way and resist); but as a request

(like with non violent communication techniques). When I feel (the first hot

day) I get lost and hate myself (etc) and what I request from you

is.....(whatever it is you need). She can meet it or not (and tell her that)

And you will be able to tell if your connection is going to work. It is in the

tough times that connection deepens.

I have noticed that when people do not make little repairs after tough times

(which is one thing Khasha and I do, not on purpose though. My ex husband and I

did NOT do this). Little apologies or gifts or ways to let the other person

know ~ I am sorry. I care. That sort of thing.

Anyway....don't be sorry for the long vent; I hope I followed along at least a

little bit. I got a little distracted with my own stuff! haha. It does suck

to be KO but most people are suffering from *something* I've realized. You

know? I feel my life has changed just by hearing this one woman's story that I

met in CA. Did I tell you it?

~patricia

Re: gaslighting

,talk about having to know how to make it through many of the

situations we are confronted with...It's true unfortunately that many people

don't care if one is nice (or only to the extent that they can get something for

themselves out of a " nice " person)...I have a respect for kindness in and of

itself but many people (not only those with a personality disorder) only use

seeming " kindness " to prompt others to do their bidding.Not everyone of course

but I think a clue that you're dealing with someone like that is if they wonder

*why* you're being " so nice " ,since they themselves need a reason to be so: it

doesn't just issue naturally from them...

The other thing is (at least in management,but I suppose also in life

in general) is that some people want to be respected more and others want more

to be liked.In business you're *supposed* to ask yourself which of these is your

more pressing need and to deal with others accordingly.I think that deep down I

prefer to be liked more than respected but there must be something about how I

project myself that makes the people I work with want more to respect me and

then be glad that they can also like me,so I've had to start with establishing

respect first then communicate that I can also be likeable.My boss (also female)

sends out mixed messages about wanting to be liked confused with wanting to be

respected and then some people don't quite trust her or her motives and she has

some problems with maintaining authority.I don't know why that is with me,that

often the people who work under me really want me to establish that they must

respect me first,but I think many people have " authoritarian complexes " from the

way they were raised,not just KOs...like trying to like someone first is too

much for them,demands too much and it's easier for them to apprehend needing to

respect a superior and being " grateful " if they can actually like

them,too.It's...kind of depressing really...It makes me feel like we live in

this simian world--when I have aggravation at work I will think to myself: It's

just monkeys swinging in the trees...thumping their chests and beaming eachother

with rotten fruit...simian posturing...

I didn't have a very good time last Saturday night at

dinner,actually.I was hoping I'd get past it,but I didn't.Something broke in me

last weekend...I had had to really concentrate during those stupid meetings

because I've been having some weird mind gaps lately...then (to me,inexplicably)

the CEO of the corrupt corporation I work for took me aside to let me know that

there is an executive position that is open is his offices and he encouraged me

to apply.I don't work for a little middling company,but a major one nationally

and having the CEO invite me to formally apply for that position meant I had an

in if I could prove it to him and also *money*...and anyone else I guess would

have been pissing themselves for joy but all I could think was: no...This isn't

what I want.And all this pressure...my boss asking me later if I was going to

apply and expecting me to be all psyched...I don't quite get what the hell it is

these people see in me...Yes,I *could* do it,but I just don't really CARE...It's

funny how much more of a presence we seem to be to others when we don't actually

effing CARE.

I want to use whatever abilities I have for something better than

this--because I feel that what I'd do in this corporation in simply exploitative

and pointless.I also know what I'm going through internally,all this trauma

stuff that keeps coming up to deal with,and I am faking it at work.It disgusts

me,frankly,that this faking it is seen as worthy of promotion...all the

phoniness and like I said,simian posturing...for what.I mean,really.To what real

purpose.

And then I came home and I couldn't have an open and honest

discussion about this with my girlfriend.She doesn't understand why I'd reject

such an offer of money and prestige.She thinks I am crazy to want to study for a

lowly LPN degree after I've put in all this time in the business world and am

getting somewhere with it.Her lack of understanding and support has demoralized

me--which yes I let happen,but still...your partner should be the one who

understands where you're going and why,right? Shouldn't they?

So we went out to dinner and I felt like I couldn't even mention

what had happened up in NYC.And it's hard to get reservations for that

restaurant on a weekend and we'd had them for a while (with some friends) and

she grew up having to force herself to perform and didn't/doesn't get something

like me wanting to bow out of some stupid dinner reservation...and the people we

went out with totally wouldn't have gotten that the CEO encouraged me to apply

for some corrupt executive position and I was not honored by that,like it would

be ridiculous not to be...So I'm alone in my thoughts about this and I'm stewing

in them...and the whole going out to dinner seems hollow and meaningless too.

My girlfriend was demoted (by me) from the status of " partner " to the

status of mere " girlfriend " about last October when I went back into therapy and

she couldn't believe I really " had " anything like Dissociative Identity Disorder

because I seemed to be coping--and she needed me to be coping for HER--why was I

letting the therapist influence me like that,to think that about myself? She

didn't want to meet with my therapist to discuss it,at all.She never did.

And something like being encouraged by the CEO no less to pursue this

potential promotion would be,to her,more " proof " that I'm fine and that I'm only

making myself miserable wanting to think I have DID.So I didn't tell her about

it,although I needed to talk about it.

And then it was hot last Saturday,the first really hot day of the

year.I have an issue with the first hot days of the year,every year.It reminds

me of the first time I was gang raped,at five,during the summer.I don't want

this to happen--I never do,I am TIRED of it--but those first hot days send me

into a spiral of self loathing that is very intense.I have tried to will it

away,distract myself,but so far to no avail.I just have to adjust to it,every

year.It really bothers me.

The first year we were together,I told her this.Then the second year,I

had to remind her.I'm glad she doesn't have to think about these things and to

feel like this.But the third year? Must I have to remind her AGAIN?

Because on last Saturday,we set out on an errand run and I was fine

at first,but as the day got hotter,it started to creep up on me,that intense

self loathing.Too much was coming up.I got to the point where I *needed* to be

able to say: I need to be alone,I need to be left alone...

And when I said that I *needed* to not go out to dinner,I got: But

we've had these reservations for such a long time and you're not saying you want

me to go alone...as if everything was fine...and I RESENTED having to remind her

AGAIN why I *needed* to be left alone in my own safe space...and not having

really shared what my week had been like work wise for fear of being judged...

What I have loved about her is that she really is a positive person

who loves life...she has often made me feel alive,vital,renewed...like I can

find my way with her to a place beyond the past where I can be free and

happy...I love her ease of living,the way she can laugh at herself,her light

philosophy and lack of gloom...but when something is really pressing on me,like

the flashbacks I get from the first hot weather,I feel alone in it.I do not feel

partnered and the self hatred I feel really takes me on a trip...

I pretended to enjoy that dinner,but...I waited a couple of days for

it all to settle and you know what,I still feel misunderstood and I still feel

down.I was SO tempted to tell her that I need us to have a separation for a

while yet I hated myself for thinking like that--this reflexive throwing the

baby out with the bathwater...It's like,when it's good with us,it's

wonderful...but when there is a glitch or something too serious for her to

handle,it's awful--for *me*...

I'd just take all of this to my therapist but it seems to me that I

should at least be able to say something to my supposed girlfriend that would be

*heard*--what's the use of having a relationship if you're gagged in it for the

stuff that gets to you the most? It all starts to seem more like a day trip

you're taking on a lark than a harbor you are returning to at the end of the

voyage where you can fix your anchor and *stay*...

I want to end up having a good time,someday...somehow...Sorry for

the long vent.It sucks being a KO at times.Just does.

>

> Hi ,

> That is funny about Sun Tzu; we must be on a wavelength. There is also a

business book for women: The Art of War For Women. I think things like this are

valuable in the sense that out in the world, people do not necessarily care if

one is a nice person or had this or that trouble and we have to know how to make

it through many of the situations we are confronted with.

> I watched a program on The Art of War and I enjoyed it a lot. I wish I

could study more carefully and remember the tactics.

> Ah well....some day.

>

> The hormonal stuff...well I don't like the *dull* feeling. Today my ex

husband was here (he is doing some work in my house for which I am paying him)

and he seems happy and content; he has a girlfriend and he even said he is

content. I cannot help that I feel a bit of something. Is it envy, bitterness,

shame? I am not sure. Perhaps all those things. I do think in many contexts

it is tougher for women in middle age (especially single divorced moms ) given

the decline in hormones and what seems to be a difficulty in finding a good

partner. It could just be the women I know, and the men I know. But I feel I

have lost a resilience that I used to have. I used to feel bad but then bounce

back. I don't like having to wait til it balances out because I know it could

be years! I don't want this for years. It would be different I suppose if

I were in a safe, stable relationship; I am guessing.

>

> There is the added stress of dealing with mom and her problems with old age;

though she seems better for now. She called me because she had not heard from

me and was worried. But I was just feeling too sad to call. But for the first

time we talked a bit about our sadness over my sister's death. That was good.

I worry about my sister's children, but the older daughter is there to take care

of things. So I can let that go for awhile.

> I have lost, I think, a lot of my anger at my mom and my wishes or sadness

around my childhood has sunk into a deep well somewhere in my psyche. Perhaps

some alchemy will take place and I will emerge from this place transformed. But

I have no idea. I feel sad when I think of how things ended for my sister; and

how the lives of my brother and I seem hard in the realms of finance and

relationships. It makes me feel I have some kind of curse on me. I hope that

is not true.

>

> Anyway, I hope your dinner was not too intolerable Did you end up having

a good time after all?

> ~patricia

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for your understanding response...And before I sidetrack

myself again: you mentioned meeting some woman in CA whose story helped you--I'd

love to hear it if you'd like to share.I don't recall you talking about that

before.

I had a look at the Women in Power website and read the three

articles...That's something--predator energy-- I've been familiar with since I

was very young.It made sense to me.I wish to hell that every single female

elementary school teacher in the nation had to attend the initiation weekend

until she effing GOT it in order to become certified.I'm not kidding,I think

that would truly help them to do their jobs.

That was one of the issues that was coming up for me last

weekend,my rage at my second grade teacher.I know that she did this

unwittingly,but her failure to report my disclosure of abuse had severe negative

repercussions for the rest of my life.She had POWER to save me and she laughed

at me instead.Because what I was saying to her was something she needed to

instantly deny.I don't tell many people that I was gang raped for three

years.But so far,the reaction from the people I have told this to is always some

form of shutting down/needing to shut it out...and that triggers me right back

to that day in that classroom with that dipshit in second grade.The only one who

actually listened was another sex abuse survivor (of incest,which to me is worse

than what I went through)--and she ended up later on betraying me.So I didn't

mean to sound accusatory in my post to you personally or to anyone in general.My

experience with this has just been very bitter.

I am still REALLY angry with that one teacher in particular.Not just

for failing to report,but also because she emotionally tortured me.I had her in

both first and second grade.Since there *was* a mandated reporter law in effect

at that time,I've considered taking her to court.Not for financial compensation

but to let her know what she did and what that did to me--and if she did that to

anyone else,for them to join me for a day of justice for us.Then I learned that

in the state of NJ,failing to report child abuse is a disorderly persons offense

and a fine of fifty dollars.That's it.The destruction of most of my life (so

far) is worth fifty fucking dollars.Even if a child dies.The life of a child in

the state of NJ is worth fifty dollars.

Unless you hire a lawyer...I'm still considering a civil suit.I am

not psychologically prepared for that right now--but my main objective in

bringing a suit against her now is to help change NJ's mandated reporter law,to

have it actually mean something,with real penalities for failure to report.Of

course if I do that I will also include the principal of that school for what

happened later and if possible the school district itself (again,to make the

case big enough to hopefully get a better law in place).Even there,what happened

to me isn't quite sensational enough to get a law changed.They like it better

when the kid dies.

I think what I read on the Women in Power website is true: children

*do* die because some ass soul isn't in touch with their inner predator--and

that ass soul isn't just the perp.

I know that I have it in me to really hurt someone,if I choose.I know

that I don't access the fullness of my own power (and sometimes this is simply

because I am weary from all the trauma I've had and don't always want to be

BOTHERED)--but I do have access to my inner predator and because I know that,I

mainly choose harmlessness.If I see someone else getting hurt,I will step up.But

most of the time,at least to me,it doesn't seem worth the effort to nuke

someone.I can't change the world or most people's minds,so I just let them live

as they are.There is a saying in Darija: They are the cost of their own

lives...I know that website isn't about nuking people but more about gaining

mastery over your shadow sides,did I understand that right? But I'm in touch

with my inner bitch--I don't really doubt my own goodness or want to prove to

myself that I'm not bad.I know that I can be very very bad and that is a

choice--I feel in control of that choice.The self loathing I mentioned is more

like a feedback loop from a period of severe trauma that gets replayed at

times--it is from *being* a piece of human garbage as far as everyone else in my

life was concerned.I can remember at six thinking that: I am nothing but

garbage,like something that gets tossed to the curb,a thing that belongs on the

rubbish heap.It's a feeling,not a belief--not what I believe I really am,but how

I was made to feel.I'm not worried at all that I'm like my abusers--first of

all,I'm not stupid like them(because I think you have to be pretty stupid to be

THAT destructive)--second of all,I'm not immoral like them--and although my rage

could take me to some very dark places,I consciously do not choose that.It's

just that from birth I was treated like a worthless piece of sh*t and that

feeling overtakes me at times.If I wasn't able to consciously think it

through,it would be more than a shadow lashing out--I would *be* that

shadow...and I'd probably be in prison.

It's great that you volunteered your time as you did and that you

also had healing for yourself from your participation.Feeling healed within a

group of women is actually beyond *my* comprehension! Really,my mind goes blank

at this.Unfortunately I've had bad experiences in groups of women (feminist

groups,survivor of sexual abuse groups)--I do not feel safe with women.I can't

imagine not being made to pay somehow for expecting other women to get it.But

I'm glad it was a positive experience for you.I think maybe (although I don't

want it to be this way) some of my damage with women is permanent.

There's some ancient Greek play,I forget which one although it might

have been by Aristophanes? where a seven girl old girl is raped on a bed by an

adult man while a group of women standing around the bed applaud.Basically,that

is how I feel about what happened to me: that the adult women around me as a

child applauded the rapists by doing nothing.The lack of support and the

rejection and even derision from women when I needed help is in many ways even

more damaging than the abuse itself.Or,I'm not sure which is worse...Their

rejection made me feel like I was some sub species of female who deserved to be

raped--that I am utterly worthless to other women.It's taken me years to start

to get over that.

I felt better later today--and I was right,I really did just need to

be alone--I was able to focus on an image that kept flashing in my head last

weekend.It was from what I think now must have been one of the worst weeks of my

entire life so far--this one week that seems to have wrecked me for years when

it COULD have been the week I was rescued.

The boys who were raping me (along with my teenaged babysitter when

my " parents " went out at night--she wasn't very bright and was actually only

twelve when it started and she ended up participating to spare herself) anyway

those boys got nastier and wilder as time went on and they never got caught or

nothing happened to them.It's like they even pushed it to see how much they

could get away with,how far they could go,like it was part of the fun.The *only*

reason why it did stop was because the ring leader turned 18 and left home and

the other ones didn't dare to continue without him.And some time soon after

that,we got a dog,a Giant Schnauzer.They're awesome guard dogs.In a way,I was

also saved by the dog--imagine PD parents who acquire a certain breed and have

no idea how to train it--he was bred to be a guard dog and he did attack

people,just not us.Of course I had no way of knowing it was going to end--it

seemed like it would go on either forever or until they killed me.I think now

that if we had gotten the dog earlier,it might have ended sooner.That wasn't the

reason they got a dog,of course.Nada didn't even realize he was a Giant

Schnauzer,she just thought he was a cute puppy.

Humiliation is a common feature of gang rape,as is the use of

objects.They did both--then one night more than two years into this,they

involved my gerbils.We had several because nada had let them breed.The babies

from one of the litters had gotten all tangled up in some nesting material she

had bought and most of them died horribly from having the material wound around

their necks and bodies.I cut them out one by one from the " nest " with a pair of

cuticle scissors and carefully cut off the wrapped around strands from their

bodies while nada sat there and screamed and cried about what a nightmare it

was.Tiny little feet coming away between my fingers as I cut away the

material--feet literally cut off by how tightly the " nesting " was wrapped around

them.Tiny tails coming off the same way.Baby gerbils convulsing and dying in my

lap.One with its head dangling because the material was wrapped so tight around

its neck it half way cut off its head.The ones I managed to save had missing

legs,feet,tails.

One of them lost one front leg and one back leg.Nada called her

" Gimper " ,can you imagine.Like it was funny--because after she got over her

screaming " this is a nightmare " hysteria,she acted like nothing much had

happened.Although she did go back to the pet store where she'd bought the

nesting material in a rage--I was there and it was very embarassing.AND she lied

about how SHE had tried to save them.

Anyway,the night they involved the gerbils was some time after

this,when " Gimper " was an adult gerbil (and I was seven).The abuse always

happened in the living room in front of the tv--one of their jokes was, " Let's

have sex while we watch tv " ...my brother was always already in bed,I made sure

of that.I was actually terrified that they'd hurt him too,like this would be

much worse than them hurting me.

That night,November something of 1974,the movie " Willard " was on the

tv.About some guy who keeps and trains rats.I think it was the sequel to

" Ben " .There were five of them that night,a real party.Plus the babysitter.I

think most of it is probably too graphic to write about here.One of the things

they often did was choke me with a certain body part of theirs (using force and

threats of injury/death--I never did anything willingly) until I faded out and

then have fun slapping or shaking me to make me " wake up " .But that night because

there were five of them and it was more brutal than it had been before and they

were like all wild and insane,I did regain consciousness but I could not be

there.Plus the movie on tv was adding to the nightmare atmosphere.I just stayed

blank.

So the ringleader picked me up by my ankles and dangled me upside

down and sort of swung me around.I couldn't stop being blank.He put me down then

dragged me by the ankles across the carpeted floor on my back so fast it was

burning my back and one of them laughed because he said there were sparks and

one of them laughed, " Hey,do you think we could make her spontaneously combust? "

I wasn't a human being to them,just an object.And still that wasn't

enough or exciting enough for them.The ringleader glanced at the tv (there was

this pack of rats on the screen,I remember it as them sort of writhing and

running) and he said, " You have rats,don't you? " and went towards our playroom

where we had a neighborhood of Habitrails.

I went after him,present again,because I couldn't bear for him to hurt

my gerbils.He took the lid off of one of the Habitrails and grabbed " Gimper "

while I kicked at him (and he laughed) and tried to pull his arm away (while he

laughed) and he walked off ahead of me holding her by the tail while I ran after

him saying, " Put her back,don't hurt my gerbil " and crying.

I told them if he put her back,I'd do anything they wanted,just put her

back.That only gave him an idea.

They held me down on the sofa and tried to get " Gimper " to attack

me.First by dangling her in my face by her tail so she'd bite me on the

face.Then by throwing her at me.I was terrified they were going to kill her.Then

they had the idea to rape me with the gerbil when they tried but she didn't bite

me down there.So they used her as an object--like I would kill my own gerbil

with my own body.She was scratching me with the claws from her one front foot.

After a few moments of this (and I was sure she was going to suffocate

to death any second and was willing her to stay alive and keep scratching

me),the ringleader pulled her out and held her up by the tail.He lit a cigarette

and held it close to her.She twitched and bucked to get away from the heat.He

put the cigarette near one of her eyes and said, " I'm going to gouge this rat's

eye out with my cigarette " while they all laughed and I struggled to get free

from them but couldn't.Then he threw her at me and they let me go.

I remember standing naked in our playroom with the light on checking her

over for injuries,my hands shaking and everything sort of flashing before me.She

seemed fine.I put her back in her cage.I had a carpet burn on my back and it

hurt and other bruising.I was tossing in my bed later trying not to go insane

and I decided that enough was enough.They had threatened,again,to kill me if I

told.The babysitter had begged me not to say anything so she wouldn't get in

trouble.But this was no longer just about my life.I was really afraid that the

next time,they would kill one of the gerbils and maybe even " Gimper " who had

miraculously lived through that nesting material horror.

The next morning I thought I'd find her dead,but she was alive.I

rehearsed something to say to nada and asked her to come to the playroom.I

didn't think she'd care about me,but I thought she really loved the gerbils.I

thought that if she knew what had happened to " Gimper " that she'd care and want

to do something.

She screamed at me that she was " sick of you and your sick lies " and

told me to shut up.Like,really furious with me.

So I decided to tell my second grade teacher.I waited until we had a

playtime/break in the classroom and asked to speak privately to her.She laughed

at me when I told her what I had to say (and I did say specifically " I don't

want to have sex with those boys anymore " --I wasn't being cryptic)--she laughed

and said, " Did you see that on tv? You must have seen that on tv... " THEN SHE

WALKED AWAY.

I felt like I was doomed to die,that " Gimper " was doomed to die.I

felt like I was going to lose my mind.I felt myself turning into a human

corpse,sitting there at my desk.My whole body from the neck down turning into

this dead block of wood.I didn't know quite how I would die--asphixiation,by

fire as they threatened to do--only that I knew that every time it got worse and

after this being the worst it had been (I have omitted other graphic

details),that the only even worse I could imagine would be them getting so out

of control,they killed me.

The year before,with this same idiotic teacher,the police had come to

give a presentation about stranger danger.They gave us this ridiculous book

about a boy saving his little sister from a man who abducted her in his car by

running to the police.I was like,well,what do you do if you don't have a big

brother???

When the two policemen were taking questions from us,I went over to

the teacher and asked her if I could talk privately to the policemen.She said ok

and I went back to my seat.But then they were leaving and she was going wih them

out in the hall.I got up and went after them and she told me to go back into the

classroom.I said, " But I told you,I wanted to ask them some questions " and she

said, " You had a chance to ask them questions in class,why didn't you ask your

questions then? They have to go now,go back to your seat. "

I said to the policemen, " I need to talk to you about something " and

the teacher told me again to go back to my seat and the policemen were just

standing there smiling and neither of them responded to me at all.It was

surreal,like they were all just idiots.Or they just didn't care.

So,that day in second grade after the " Willard " night I thought of

calling the police but then I figured they wouldn't even listen to me.Later that

week I had a Brownie meet and I decided to tell the Brownie leader.

I was going to ask to speak to her after the meet.But she got upset

when the girls didn't line right up when she told them to and burst into

tears.She was sobbing, " Nobody ever listens to me...why...why...why...I told you

to line up,I told you to line up... " Her mascara was running in lines down her

cheeks and she looked like a lunatic.She was childish,sobbing over nothing.She

wanted US to comfort HER.

And I thought,she's even more of a kid than we are.She's not going to

listen to me,either.And she was STILL crying after we lined up and were filing

out of the school library and she was saying, " I quit,I quit...you might not have

a meet the next time,until you get a new Brownie leader...I quit,nobody ever

listens to me... " Boo hoo hoo,massive self pity.

I developed a new alter instead,the only solution I could come up

with.His name was Jake and he didn't care if he died.He also liked sex and to

him it was a funny joke that those boys thought they were doing a girl when they

were really doing a boy--the joke was on them.He stood in for me every time

afterward,but unfortunately he also didn't go away after it stopped.That's

another part of a long story.I didn't integrate Jake until late January or so of

this year.

About censoring...I censor myself all the time in the sense of hardly

ever mentioning aloud what I'm thinking about,the many intrusive trauma

flashbacks that I have.Or I'm talking about one thing (something normal and

acceptable) while I'm thinking about something I know I can't share.I also

censor myself alot on this board--sometimes I don't.Like with this (and this is

a censored version...)

I understand how it's too much for other people to hear or to deal

with.Or how someone other than me (or my therapist) would develop compassion

fatigue hearing about it.I have to live with all of this that could have

been/should have been stopped if I hadn't been surrounded by idiots when it was

happening.I start to achieve better acceptance of it or better objectivity or

more peace with it,then there is another layer to deal with.My girlfriend says

things like, " Oh,darling,you don't have to think about those things anymore,it's

going to be ok now " like here let me hold you and make it all go away...but it

doesn't work like that.I wish it did,but it just doesn't.

I don't know how long it's going to take or if this is going to be

lifelong.I keep wanting to get to the point where I can make use of my

experiences to *do* something to effect change,like at least getting NJ's

mandated reporter law changed.But I'm never there yet.I'm farther along in

coming to terms with all of it than I've ever been before...and...I don't want

all this suffering to be only that and just in vain...but until I get it

together,most of my processing is going to have to be done on my own,alone...it

seems to me...Sometimes I don't even know anymore what would help,just that

there is safety in solitude.

Thanks for listening...

>

> Hi ,

> I decided to answer your email in pieces because of the different issues.

> I am so sorry to hear of your struggle with recovery around being gang raped

when you

> were so young. I do so get how people do not want to hear of these things

that have happened

> because to them it is incomprehensible. It is not something they have any

skill with and so cannot really face it. However, I am not one of those people.

I have volunteered a lot of my time with women who have gone through these

things (and I also worked as a research

> interviewer with women who had experienced abuse and drug issues).

> That program I did and then volunteered for (womeninpowerprogram.com) involved

hundreds of women who have gone through similar (some worse some not as bad)

situations.

>

> I do know there are those who can and will gladly be with you and *get it*.

But in general most people can't do it. And I know that is a lonesome and

sometimes desperate place to be in. It does make sense that you would want to

be alone when you experience flashbacks. This is that other aspect where people

don't understand that sometimes it is better that way.

> (I had friends over last night, and felt that I really needed to be alone even

though I complain I am lonely...it's just sometimes you need that when you are

going through pain).

> And yeah, censoring yourself is a very bad feeling. That is how most of us

(on this list) probably grew up to one degree or another.

>

> The idea that adults would not listen to you is so outrageous. And yet, over

time I see how adults are not what we think they are when we are children.

>

> I am glad you are in a good place with your sexuality. And yet I hear that

there are the layers underneath of the evil that was perpetrated on you. Again,

there are those who can and will listen and will not require you to censor

yourself. I have seen some amazing things with women helping other women to

heal. Truly amazing. I believe it is possible. Not to forget or get rid of

those bad things but to transform ourselves in that alchemy of healing that is

possible. I know there are really not the right words to articulate how it

*was* for you. Especially since you were so young when it happened and you had

no validation or savior to protect you. That is why I loved the work I

did/witnessed because there was the acceptance that *words* were not always

possible or even the best way to work on the issue(s).

> Of course the work is ongoing for us all. But that pathway is the one thing I

have experienced a sense of joyfulness in healing; a relief of being witnessed;

and love of being cared for.

>

> So, anything you care to say, just letting you know, that I am not afraid to

hear it. And being alone is fine too!

> more later,

> ~patricia

> Re: gaslighting

>

>

> ,thank you for your caring and your counsel.I have had to resolve,to

myself,that I am in fact utterly alone in the experience I had with the gang

rapes,that happened during a period of three years from ages 5-8.It's something

nobody ever understands or wants to hear about.My encounter with absolute

evil.My therapist is the only one who can bear any of it in the details,but

she's heard so much and she did choose that profession after all of her own free

will...

>

> I told my girlfriend the truth: I just need to be alone this

weekend.People,including her,take that the wrong way but that is what I do

need.Not because I WANT to be alone.But because I AM.That is what I didn't have

when the rapes were happening: being able to say that I need to be left

ALONE.And to have that be respected.

>

> If I could simply--and it is really very simple,but apparently too

much to ask of others--share some of the details so it would be known how bad it

was,I could get it off my chest so to speak...but it becomes an issue of making

others uncomfortable,so I have to deal with it alone except in therapy.

>

> Like,my girlfriend would say: But you need company right now...as if

that would be a comfort but it is NOT when I am having to censor myself.I'd

rather be alone.Because the censoring is a trigger.

>

> I've done everything I can think of to deal with the flashbacks

from the first hot weather: letting myself feel it/experience it/...telling

myself it's not happening now...trying to replace it with a better/happier

experience...but it's actually a catastrophe on top of previous catastrophe so

when it happened I didn't have any foundation to rely on,just more previous

horror from nada--that is why it was so resoundingly traumatic,not that it

wouldn't have been anyway.It's just alot,alot of intensity...I was threatened

with death (by burning my house down) every time afterward and I tried

eventually to get help to no avail...my teacher laughed at me when I told

her,when I believed that death was immanent for me...it's alot to deal

with...and much much much comes up for me when the weather first gets hot,it

comes over me no matter how hard I try...and I never want it to and always hope

that this year will be different.

>

> I've worked on my sexuality for years and mostly it's fine now.My

girlfriend and I have a meaningful sexual rapport and mostly it's been

liberating,but not when I'm feeling like this.I do not want those monsters to

intrude.I just want to leave that out when I can.Because having them *there*

when I'm in this state is like they win.For me,sexual ecstasy is a spiritual

matter and I don't want any evil sullying it,not when I have finally gotten to

liberation.I need it to be holy and good and transcendental.Other than when I'm

swilling in this utter despair (about MANY things related to being gang raped),I

do feel the joyousness of deep sexual connection,like I am finally free from

that horror and destruction.All I really want is to get beyond the knowningness

of pure evil but for me it is many layered--MANY--and I have to accept that

nobody is going to go there with me--except someone I pay to do so,my

therapist--and that I am completely alone in that knowingness.

>

> It's something I could attempt to explain ad infinitum or ad nauseam

but only I am going to get it.I feel like even if somebody else understood how

bad it was,they will still conjecture stuff from it that I don't,although their

awareness of just how bad it was would help somewhat.It never should have

happened in the first place.And it got worse over time because nobody stopped

it.I have to live with that.Just me,because it happened to me.

>

> The LPN idea...is just a means to an end.It's not what I want to

end up doing,but it would enable me to work shifts on the weekend and go to

school full time during the week.It will mean a cut in pay for a few years but I

calculated the figures and I think it will work out in the longterm.My

girlfriend's thing is :But why put yourself through all this belt tightening

just to end up with a salary like you could have now if you just stay where you

are?

>

> She comes from an impoverished country where you don't throw away a

prestige position when you get one because you want to " find yourself " .Morality

and security mean different things to her than to me.She came to this country to

make a better life for herself--and to her,if you've got financial

security,you'd be a fool to complain or to give that up.I understand that with

all the changes I've been going through that my longterm plans might not seem

like a sure thing to her--and I also understand the strange insecurity of living

in a foreign country/culture since ironically I had the same thing living in

*her* country myself.I understand the wanting stability.She's a strong person

and isn't financially dependent on me,she's made her own way here,but she's also

given up alot to do that because it's just not possible to live openly as a

lesbian in Morocco and mainly what she had to trade for her own authenticity is

a family/community connection (which is HUGE is her culture) and I do understand

her needing to replace that enormous loss with something sure and stable--and

her fears of me making a big change in direction not offering the safety and

stability she needs to rely on.

>

> The other thing is...she tends to believe that dwelling on

negativity perpetuates it,which is objectively true...in her mind,if she doesn't

focus too much on something,it will resolve itself or a solution will present

itself...which is also true of many things in life,but....not trauma...that I

need to process and I can only do that by dealing with it.I wasted YEARS trying

to make it all better by just getting on with my life,but it always came back to

bite me.It's really hard in a romantic relationship to have to say: the

relationship isn't enough to heal me...and to have the partner understand it

isn't them,it is the enormity of the trauma.For her,it's like it's so upsetting

(and maybe what I've written has made her sound a bit mean and selfish when she

isn't: she does have my well being at heart,she just doesn't get what I went

through)--it's so upsetting that she doesn't understand why I wouldn't chose to

just walk away from it and leave it behind,like hand and hand into a brighter

day...OF COURSE I would want our relationship to heal me but there is simply so

much I am alone in with my own experience and it's complicated,so many many many

things I am very very tired of having to deal with.

>

> I just need to be alone for a while.Faking it in any way whatsoever

right now is too triggering.It seems like I can say over and over again that

what I went through from birth was absolutely catastrophic but it's only words

that only have meaning for me.So I will deal with that meaning alone.If needing

to be alone wasn't made into a big deal,it wouldn't seem so alienating to both

of us...

>

> I've been through this shit so many times in the past in

relationships with the other person taking my needs for solitude (since I AM

UTTERLY ALONE IN THIS and I can say that til I'm blue in the face and it's like

I'm shouting into the wind)the wrong way and I am just really tired of it.

>

> Even after all these words,I haven't been able to explain how I

feel at all.It's easier on me to just be alone,since there is really nothing I

can say about it that would clarify all this complication that never should have

been in the first place.

>

>