Re: repetitive/irrational arguments

May 19, 2010

My gut response would be:

" Mom, we already covered this issue many times, and I'm not going to talk

about it again. If you bring it up again, I will hang up. Let's talk about

something else. "

and then have a conversation topic ready. If she goes back to it, tell her

she's talking about it again, and that you will hang up. And then hang up.

Stick to your guns, because any loosening of your boundaries will be an

invitation to being trampled all over by BPs. At least, that's what I've

noticed is a trend on these boards.

~Holly

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:32 PM, cocochanel1005 wrote:

>

> I have been having the EXACT same ridiculously repetitive/irrational

> argument with my nada every time I talk to her and I don't know how to make

> it stop so I would LOVE any advice. Here's the situation:

>

> I went through medical school and started residency in general surgery,

> realized I hated it and pretty much did medicine because my parents forced

> me to (starting when I was 5 and wanted to be a writer). So I left residency

> to pursue my real passion- health care policy. I studied for the GMATs and

> started applying to b school without letting my nada and fada know I left

> residency.

>

> You can imagine how horrible it was when I told them I left residency and

> wanted to go to business school! My nada impeded much of the process

> although she still only wanted me to attend a top ten school. Due to the

> timing of when I quit I applied extremely late and only got into one school.

> It is highly ranked and specializes in health care policy but is not a " top

> ten school " .

>

> So here is nada's continuing argument:

> - I failed and didn't get into a top ten school so I can't pursue business

> now

> - no one makes money in business and there are no jobs

> - anyone who's not a physician makes less than 50k

> - I will never get married if I don't do residency because I am now

> undesirable

> - I can do residency until I get married and then quit (this is actually

> what every female in my family has done)

> - Although I am an MD and (will) have passed all of the medical boards, I

> am not a physician

>

> Thank god I have limited our conversations to once a week but I don't know

> how to deal with this anymore! I actually address every one of her concerns

> with hard evidence proving them wrong but she won't listen to me. On top of

> that, we make zero progress and start the argument from the beginning every

> single time we talk. Any suggestions?? I feel like her intensity has picked

> up since b school is starting soon and it's going to become a reality so I'm

> really worried that it's even going to get worse. I just started her on

> weekly phone calls so I don't think I can realistically restrict it more

> than that yet. DESPERATE for suggestions!!

>

May 19, 2010

I second sticking to your guns. Remember, no one hears repeats. My father

taught me this: Excessive repetition is a tactic that defense attorneys use.

Pretend someone has been brutally murdered and it has been captured on tape.

Now play this tape for the jury 100s of times, every day over and over.

Eventually, the blood and gore doesn't make people cringe; they will be

thinking about their next sumptuous meal or planning a delightful trip to

Barbados in their minds, all while watching the allegedly dreadful tape.

This is the same for your mom: you say things once and act on it and

suddenly she will listen. You say things over and over again and don't act

on it: well it's like toddlers tuning out their parents when they are

reprimanding them to go to bed, go to bed, go to bed, clean your room, clean

your room.. Who hears that? It's " go to bed. " Then you shut your door and

don't answer them even when they knock and throw tantrums. Your mom is a

toddler, you have to be the grown up and you are doing a fantastic job of

it. You should be so proud that you are an MD. You are intelligent enough to

become a physician, but you are also insightful enough to know that even if

you were an internationally renowned doctor, you would still be happier

pursuing business. Happiness and wealth are not synonymous, in the

thesaurus, or in practice. Who is to say that a person making 50 grand isn't

just as happy or happier than the person making over 250 grand? Don't

explain to your mom your reasons. You said your reasons more than once, and

she doesn't hear you out of choice. You can make a choice to: to follow your

instincts, stop feeling bad and start owning your life. Be proud of yourself

and take your journey one step at a time.. You can do this!

My mom loves to guilt trip me, manipulate me, and control me. And I defend

myself on the phone saying the same things, sometimes screaming the same

defenses over and over again.. " Mom, if you put me down again, I am going to

hang up. " And then she would put me down again and I wouldn't hang up, I

would keep defending myself.. Now I stick to my guns, when she's putting me

down I say don't put me down I am hanging up. Then I shut my phone off, take

a deep breath and go about my day. I might even say a quick prayer.. My

first instinct is to eat everything in the house when she aggravates me;

it's a learned behavior I watched from my mom and basically every movie that

shows girls attacking the pantry when they are upset.. Now I will have a

glass of water, go for a walk, or go to the gym!

You can do this!

I am proud of you for all of your accomplishments and business school will

be the next successful feat!

-

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Holly Byers

wrote:

> My gut response would be:

>

> " Mom, we already covered this issue many times, and I'm not going to talk

> about it again. If you bring it up again, I will hang up. Let's talk about

> something else. "

>

> and then have a conversation topic ready. If she goes back to it, tell her

> she's talking about it again, and that you will hang up. And then hang up.

> Stick to your guns, because any loosening of your boundaries will be an

> invitation to being trampled all over by BPs. At least, that's what I've

> noticed is a trend on these boards.

>

> ~Holly

>

> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:32 PM, cocochanel1005 <cocochanel1005@...

> >wrote:

>

> >

> > I have been having the EXACT same ridiculously repetitive/irrational

> > argument with my nada every time I talk to her and I don't know how to

> make

> > it stop so I would LOVE any advice. Here's the situation:

> >

> > I went through medical school and started residency in general surgery,

> > realized I hated it and pretty much did medicine because my parents

> forced

> > me to (starting when I was 5 and wanted to be a writer). So I left

> residency

> > to pursue my real passion- health care policy. I studied for the GMATs

> and

> > started applying to b school without letting my nada and fada know I left

> > residency.

> >

> > You can imagine how horrible it was when I told them I left residency and

> > wanted to go to business school! My nada impeded much of the process

> > although she still only wanted me to attend a top ten school. Due to the

> > timing of when I quit I applied extremely late and only got into one

> school.

> > It is highly ranked and specializes in health care policy but is not a

> " top

> > ten school " .

> >

> > So here is nada's continuing argument:

> > - I failed and didn't get into a top ten school so I can't pursue

> business

> > now

> > - no one makes money in business and there are no jobs

> > - anyone who's not a physician makes less than 50k

> > - I will never get married if I don't do residency because I am now

> > undesirable

> > - I can do residency until I get married and then quit (this is actually

> > what every female in my family has done)

> > - Although I am an MD and (will) have passed all of the medical boards, I

> > am not a physician

> >

> > Thank god I have limited our conversations to once a week but I don't

> know

> > how to deal with this anymore! I actually address every one of her

> concerns

> > with hard evidence proving them wrong but she won't listen to me. On top

> of

> > that, we make zero progress and start the argument from the beginning

> every

> > single time we talk. Any suggestions?? I feel like her intensity has

> picked

> > up since b school is starting soon and it's going to become a reality so

> I'm

> > really worried that it's even going to get worse. I just started her on

> > weekly phone calls so I don't think I can realistically restrict it more

> > than that yet. DESPERATE for suggestions!!

> >

>

May 19, 2010

I completely agree with Holly. There is no way to win the game

when your opponent is a nada. You can't expect to have a

rational discussion with someone who is mentally ill and

irrational. Her brain doesn't work the way ours do. The only way

for you to come out ahead is to not play the game at all. When

my nada insists on discussing topics that I have no intention of

talking to her about, I simply say " we're not going to discuss

that " and if she continues I leave or hang up as appropriate.

She gets one second chance during any visit or phone

conversation and if she pursists, that's it for me. That policy

has done wonders for my ability to talk to her without getting

angry or stressed out.

At 07:43 PM 05/19/2010 Holly Byers wrote:

>My gut response would be:

>

> " Mom, we already covered this issue many times, and I'm not

>going to talk

>about it again. If you bring it up again, I will hang up. Let's

>talk about

>something else. "

>

>and then have a conversation topic ready. If she goes back to

>it, tell her

>she's talking about it again, and that you will hang up. And

>then hang up.

>Stick to your guns, because any loosening of your boundaries

>will be an

>invitation to being trampled all over by BPs. At least, that's

>what I've

>noticed is a trend on these boards.

>

>~Holly

--

Katrina

May 19, 2010

I would be tempted to just agree with every statement she makes. In the tone of

voice of that teacher from Ferris Bueller's day off, or droopy the cartoon

character. 'yes, your right'. 'yes it's terrible'. 'yes I'm a failure'.

that's if they can't affect your life. are they paying for your school or

something?

>

> I have been having the EXACT same ridiculously repetitive/irrational argument

with my nada every time I talk to her and I don't know how to make it stop so I

would LOVE any advice. Here's the situation:

>

> I went through medical school and started residency in general surgery,

realized I hated it and pretty much did medicine because my parents forced me to

(starting when I was 5 and wanted to be a writer). So I left residency to pursue

my real passion- health care policy. I studied for the GMATs and started

applying to b school without letting my nada and fada know I left residency.

>

> You can imagine how horrible it was when I told them I left residency and

wanted to go to business school! My nada impeded much of the process although

she still only wanted me to attend a top ten school. Due to the timing of when I

quit I applied extremely late and only got into one school. It is highly ranked

and specializes in health care policy but is not a " top ten school " .

>

> So here is nada's continuing argument:

> - I failed and didn't get into a top ten school so I can't pursue business now

> - no one makes money in business and there are no jobs

> - anyone who's not a physician makes less than 50k

> - I will never get married if I don't do residency because I am now

undesirable

> - I can do residency until I get married and then quit (this is actually what

every female in my family has done)

> - Although I am an MD and (will) have passed all of the medical boards, I am

not a physician

>

> Thank god I have limited our conversations to once a week but I don't know how

to deal with this anymore! I actually address every one of her concerns with

hard evidence proving them wrong but she won't listen to me. On top of that, we

make zero progress and start the argument from the beginning every single time

we talk. Any suggestions?? I feel like her intensity has picked up since b

school is starting soon and it's going to become a reality so I'm really worried

that it's even going to get worse. I just started her on weekly phone calls so I

don't think I can realistically restrict it more than that yet. DESPERATE for

suggestions!!

>

May 19, 2010

Thanks for all of your suggestions! I do plan on telling nada that I'm going to

hang up if we discuss these issues because I don't have any other options at

this point. phine, yes, they are paying for school. I would LOVE to go NC

but I'd prefer to wait until after school. I know that's probably not a great

attitude but I feel like after all of this- they owe me that much.

> >

> > I have been having the EXACT same ridiculously repetitive/irrational

argument with my nada every time I talk to her and I don't know how to make it

stop so I would LOVE any advice. Here's the situation:

> >

> > I went through medical school and started residency in general surgery,

realized I hated it and pretty much did medicine because my parents forced me to

(starting when I was 5 and wanted to be a writer). So I left residency to pursue

my real passion- health care policy. I studied for the GMATs and started

applying to b school without letting my nada and fada know I left residency.

> >

> > You can imagine how horrible it was when I told them I left residency and

wanted to go to business school! My nada impeded much of the process although

she still only wanted me to attend a top ten school. Due to the timing of when I

quit I applied extremely late and only got into one school. It is highly ranked

and specializes in health care policy but is not a " top ten school " .

> >

> > So here is nada's continuing argument:

> > - I failed and didn't get into a top ten school so I can't pursue business

now

> > - no one makes money in business and there are no jobs

> > - anyone who's not a physician makes less than 50k

> > - I will never get married if I don't do residency because I am now

undesirable

> > - I can do residency until I get married and then quit (this is actually

what every female in my family has done)

> > - Although I am an MD and (will) have passed all of the medical boards, I am

not a physician

> >

> > Thank god I have limited our conversations to once a week but I don't know

how to deal with this anymore! I actually address every one of her concerns with

hard evidence proving them wrong but she won't listen to me. On top of that, we

make zero progress and start the argument from the beginning every single time

we talk. Any suggestions?? I feel like her intensity has picked up since b

school is starting soon and it's going to become a reality so I'm really worried

that it's even going to get worse. I just started her on weekly phone calls so I

don't think I can realistically restrict it more than that yet. DESPERATE for

suggestions!!

> >

>

May 20, 2010

!

Sorry for the late reply but the computer I've been at blocks this website.

I can so relate to your post because a) I'm an MD, too, I've also always

wanted to be a writer, and c) I got the same damn mixed messages about my

education as you are getting.

My parents told me all through high school that I could go to any college I

wanted, and although I went to public schools I got all the other preening that

helps to buff a college application: private music lessons, etc. I graduated

second in a class of over 600. During my senior year of high school, I was

informed that my parents hadn't saved any money, at all, for my college

education, even though they'd indicated that they would pay for all of it, and

they would not allow me to apply to ANY Ivy league colleges, even if I got

scholarships. I ended up going to a very competitive and academically rigorous

non-Ivy on a very generous scholarship, and I made a point of never requesting

any money from my parents for anything above and beyond what little remained of

tuition and room and board, and even then I moved off-campus after my first year

and paid for that myself, too. I worked 30-40 hours per week all through

college. I got a total of two C+s during my college career, the first in a

chemistry class when I had to miss several lab sessions to get surgery, and the

second in a biology class when I was suing an ex-boyfriend after he stole

everything I wasn't wearing. Nada's response was to wonder aloud why she was

" spending all this money " to send me to this school if all I was going to do was

get C's. She also didn't understand why I didn't join a sorority so she and I

could embroider sorority sweaters together, and why wasn't I a cheerleader? Why

didn't I curl my hair? And the constant requests to transfer from this school

and go to the state school which was only a half hour from their home. When it

became clear that I intended to apply to medical school, her " help " was the

purchase of an interview outfit (selected entirely without my input): a black

miniskirt and short black jacket over a metallic fuschia shell with a matching

flouncy fuschia bow for my hair, and a pair of black stilettos. Refusing to

hook my way into medical school, I returned it and did my interviews in borrowed

clothes and Goodwill finds. After I was accepted into a top ten medical school,

nada's response was " I can't believe MY DAUGHTER got into medical school! " Ugh.

Anyway, back to your question. Your mom's being a beatch. You are a physician.

One of my classmates from residency quit halfway through and is making more than

me as a stock advisor on Wall Street. I'd just say " I'm done having this

discussion with you, and if you insist on bringing it up again our conversation

will end. " And then follow through.