Re: even the smallest thing

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I have experienced this with my mom and my sister; this exact thing. It's like

they

were not able to go out and DO things and so couldn't have the experiences I

did. It

used to make me mad (more with my sis) because I felt that I pushed myself out

into the

world even though it was hard and I was shy and nervous. The only reason I

experienced

those types of things was because of that.

It made me not share things. I didn't want to go through that negative feeling

from those

comments.

But as I think about it now, I think my perception is skewed because I was/am

related to

these people. My situation has nothing to do with them and vice versa. If that

makes sense.

Of course it made me frustrated and angry, but it was their limitations that had

nothing

to do with me. I think they would say those things to anyone. They coveted

perhaps

anyone else's life. That *seemed* to be better, more interesting etc. But I

would remember

my pounding heart and anxiety or homesickness when I tried new things that they

weren't

willing to do.

It's like they had invisible chains.....

~patricia

even the smallest thing

I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind, and

sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her - things to

keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've been able to

accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when talking to

her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell her that I

went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding with envy that

there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not well enough to take

walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's like she *covets* even

the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It makes it damn near

impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of life?

I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she has to

grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go into

therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

julie

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi , yep there are definitely ways in which my nada and other FOO have

held themselves back with those invisible chains like you say. And in those

areas that I haven't are some of the most difficult subjects I avoid with them -

the most envy or the most undermining coming from them.

But bear with me while I bring the subject *smaller*...what amazes me is that

she can have the covet/envy reaction about something tiny. Like I can get

tomato basil hummus at the grocery store, but stores in her town don't carry it.

Or that there's any store or product I have access to that she doesn't. Or that

I'm well while she's got a cold. This extends to big issues like life/work/love

but it freaks me out to how small a thing it goes to. How small it too small?

Is there no end to it?????

You are right that it feeling personal bothers me. It is true that she envies

many others as well for various reasons. I guess it's because for me it

represents her general sense of entitlement that it hits nerves.

thanks,

julie

>

> Hi ,

> I have experienced this with my mom and my sister; this exact thing. It's

like they

> were not able to go out and DO things and so couldn't have the experiences I

did. It

> used to make me mad (more with my sis) because I felt that I pushed myself out

into the

> world even though it was hard and I was shy and nervous. The only reason I

experienced

> those types of things was because of that.

> It made me not share things. I didn't want to go through that negative

feeling from those

> comments.

>

> But as I think about it now, I think my perception is skewed because I was/am

related to

> these people. My situation has nothing to do with them and vice versa. If

that makes sense.

> Of course it made me frustrated and angry, but it was their limitations that

had nothing

> to do with me. I think they would say those things to anyone. They coveted

perhaps

> anyone else's life. That *seemed* to be better, more interesting etc. But I

would remember

> my pounding heart and anxiety or homesickness when I tried new things that

they weren't

> willing to do.

> It's like they had invisible chains.....

> ~patricia

>

> even the smallest thing

>

>

> I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind,

and sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her - things

to keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've been able

to accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when talking to

her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell her that I

went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding with envy that

there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not well enough to take

walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's like she *covets* even

the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It makes it damn near

impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

>

> Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of life?

I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she has to

grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go into

therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

>

> julie

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I have seen this in both my mother and SIL, they operate from a place of lack.

When I got my new laptop my SIL said " everyone has a laptop but me " . I scrub

toilets 7 nights a week so I really don't have any sympathy for her. with my

mother it's " I just wish... " that is how she precedes her 'miss pitiful'

statements.

>

> I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind, and

sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her - things to

keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've been able to

accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when talking to

her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell her that I

went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding with envy that

there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not well enough to take

walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's like she *covets* even

the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It makes it damn near

impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

>

> Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of life?

I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she has to

grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go into

therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

>

> julie

>

[Guest guest]

phine, I like it - Miss Pitiful - yep the essence of the Waif. And

congratulations on your new laptop - I hope you are enjoying it tremendously!

Maybe it's the experience of expressing something positive in your life big or

little and having them immediately respond with their needs. Like you are now

supposed to feel bad or give them whatever it is, or apologize!

> >

> > I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind,

and sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her - things

to keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've been able

to accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when talking to

her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell her that I

went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding with envy that

there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not well enough to take

walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's like she *covets* even

the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It makes it damn near

impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

> >

> > Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of life?

I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she has to

grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go into

therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

> >

> > julie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Ah, memories of Nada - yes, she did this to me, too (probably still would be

doing it, except that I don't talk to her any more). Not only did she " envy "

whatever I had, but constantly reminded me of the vast sacrifices she had made

so I could have a better life (excuse me? What was that TWELVE YEARS I spent

working my way through school, one course at a time?). Here's the thing: I

have a kid. I am committed to making sure he has more opportunities than I did.

Isn't that what parents are supposed to do? Why on earth would a parent NOT

want their kids to advance?

Not only did my mother have " pity parties " for herself, she would also have them

for her friends - at one point, when my husband and I were both working very

stressful jobs with long hours and minimal time off, plus raising a toddler, she

called to tell me this long story about a friend of hers who had quit work when

she married a wealthy man. They had a great life for several years before his

company fell on hard times, they had to stop travelling, had to sell their big

boat, and - gasp!! - the woman had to go back to work, and was now having to

spend her days in an office while her teenaged daughter came home to an empty

house!! Poor, poor friend! I interrupted my mother to say, " Mom, you have just

described my life. Am I supposed to feel sorry for her? Everybody I know lives

like that. " It actually took her aback - for once, she was speechless (for

about 3 seconds) - then she said, " Yeah, but T. wasn't planning on having to

work. " Really? You get to plan NOT to work for a living? Who knew?

No matter what I did, no matter how hard I worked, no matter what I

accomplished, either somebody else had done a better job, or whatever I'd done

was " owed " to Nada's great sacrifices.

There was NO POINT in talking to her. Weather, politics, and TV shows - that

was the limit of safe conversation.

> > >

> > > I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind,

and sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her - things

to keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've been able

to accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when talking to

her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell her that I

went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding with envy that

there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not well enough to take

walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's like she *covets* even

the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It makes it damn near

impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

> > >

> > > Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of

life? I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she

has to grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go

into therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

> > >

> > > julie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I can relate to this. My mother didn't just complain about not being

able to do it, but would give you a long list of the dangers you're

experiencing in whatever it is you're doing.

In a message dated 6/4/2010 9:20:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

climberkayak@... writes:

I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind,

and sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her -

things to keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've been

able to accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when

talking to her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell

her that I went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding

with envy that there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not

well enough to take walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's

like she *covets* even the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It

makes it damn near impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of

life? I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she

has to grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go

into therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

julie

[Guest guest]

Yes, yes, yes!

I couldn't bring up the weather, the trees, my courses, a new recipe I'd found,

or anything (even if she brought it up) because she would get jealous and whine

for a while that she didn't have anything like that and how much she hated NYC

(SHE insisted on moving us across the country, 100% against my will) and how

there was nothing good for her. ANd of course, when I said, if it's making you

SO miserable why don't you look into moving to another burrough (sp?) or outside

the city, or back to California, I would get a long ramble about how she

couldn't bear to leave NYC or be " so far away from [me] "

No matter what I brought up (big or small) it always circled around to be about

HER *grumpy face*

Ah well, I got back in touch with my estranged father (Nada cut him out of our

lives... wait, no, our " life " ) and we can have a conversation... no really, a

REAL one. We both talk and ask questions and listen and go on tangents. The best

part? We set up a regular calling time, and we're BOTH flexible about it (and

that regular time isn't every bloody day)

I saw in another post, " the best revenge is living well " : yes it is, and boy is

revenge like that sweet! I find it helpful to realize that I *can* bring up

little things and that I *can* have a normal conversation; that way I remember

that it's not *me* who kept messing up the calls with Nada, it was her/BPD.

-Frances

>

> I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind, and

sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her - things to

keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've been able to

accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when talking to

her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell her that I

went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding with envy that

there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not well enough to take

walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's like she *covets* even

the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It makes it damn near

impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

>

> Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of life?

I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she has to

grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go into

therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

>

> julie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I get what you mean about the small things. It is like this weird habit maybe??

A habit to just

constantly take away from you (all of us) your experience. It's like they

realize on some level

that you are *experiencing* life in a way that they can't maybe. There is no

" too small " . Unless

maybe you said: I found a pretty pebble today when I walked to my car. But then

it might be: I

wish I had a car like yours, or somewhere to drive to. So maybe there is no

end!

It is a weird sense of entitlement; I felt that way with my sister (which is

hard for me to mention

because of her recent death; I feel guilty). Anything I had, she would say: It

must be nice. But it

was the choices I made in my life that got me things (and plus the laptop I

bought on a credit card

and am still paying for!) I didn't choose to have four kids, I went to college,

etc etc. (And I'm not

doing great by any means, but I had a divorce settlement that has allowed me to

survive in a house

where I rent out an apartment....which I hate having to do!)

Maybe the flip side of the entitlement thing is a sense of disentitlement to

have what everyone else

has (what they think everyone else has). And maybe that *thing* is sanity, or

ability, social ease,

experience, overcoming fear and anxiety..... I don't know. I am just trying to

figure it out because what

else could it be? It's so pervasive with this condition,

~patricia

even the smallest thing

>

>

> I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind,

and sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her - things

to keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've been able

to accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when talking to

her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell her that I

went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding with envy that

there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not well enough to take

walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's like she *covets* even

the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It makes it damn near

impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

>

> Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of

life? I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she

has to grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go

into therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

>

> julie

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I can definitely relate to this. My nada is the master of the pity party and it

really will be about everything. She has humiliated me multiple times in front

of people by pitying herself- one episode that stands out is when I graduated

from college. I had worked full time the whole time I was in college and took

out loans for my school. I had a few mentors as an undergrad who were wonderful,

non-BPD, supportive, and had more faith in my abilities than I did. So at the

graduation ceremony, I saw one of my faculty mentors and introduced her to my

nada and sister. I was commenting on her doctoral gown and saying something

about how seeing faculty in their gowns motivated me to apply to grad school so

that could be me one day. My nada made a comment about how she was never able to

get a Ph.D. due to some reason or excuse I have since blocked out. It absolutely

crushed the moment of my celebrating my college graduation that I had worked

incredibly hard for at great cost for many years (my breaks from school were

always spent working more, so I missed out on many " traditional " college

experiences, such as going to Europe). I also have a GED, so college graduation

was very meaningful to me. But instead of letting me enjoy the moment, she

humiliated me in front of my mentor and then fell asleep during the ceremony.

Now when we talk, I just listen to her talk, comment with as much empathy as I

can muster, and try to avoid talking about anything I care about or am working

towards so she can't hurt me or undermine my efforts at bettering myself.

>

> Yes, I can relate to this. My mother didn't just complain about not being

> able to do it, but would give you a long list of the dangers you're

> experiencing in whatever it is you're doing.

>

>

> In a message dated 6/4/2010 9:20:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> climberkayak@... writes:

>

>

>

>

> I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind,

> and sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her -

> things to keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've

been

> able to accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when

> talking to her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell

> her that I went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding

> with envy that there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not

> well enough to take walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's

> like she *covets* even the smallest of positive experiences that I share. It

> makes it damn near impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

>

> Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of

> life? I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that she

> has to grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go

> into therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

>

> julie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh this is a hard story; I feel bad for you as I know how hard it is to get

through

college and to want and need a mentor; to feel special and acknowledged for your

work and accomplishments.

(when I graduated it was sort of a let down experience, though my new boyfriend

was there and he gave me a very nice gift; but when they said my name they

neglected to mention

that I graduated magna cum laude, and my parents were okay, but no friends came;

just

sort of anticlimactic to all the work and experience I had there)

The second part of your email makes me feel sad; my situation is similar though

my mom wouldn't try to undermine me at this point but I know the energy-feeling

of going through

these phone calls and to me it seems sad.

~patricia

Re: even the smallest thing

I can definitely relate to this. My nada is the master of the pity party and

it really will be about everything. She has humiliated me multiple times in

front of people by pitying herself- one episode that stands out is when I

graduated from college. I had worked full time the whole time I was in college

and took out loans for my school. I had a few mentors as an undergrad who were

wonderful, non-BPD, supportive, and had more faith in my abilities than I did.

So at the graduation ceremony, I saw one of my faculty mentors and introduced

her to my nada and sister. I was commenting on her doctoral gown and saying

something about how seeing faculty in their gowns motivated me to apply to grad

school so that could be me one day. My nada made a comment about how she was

never able to get a Ph.D. due to some reason or excuse I have since blocked out.

It absolutely crushed the moment of my celebrating my college graduation that I

had worked incredibly hard for at great cost for many years (my breaks from

school were always spent working more, so I missed out on many " traditional "

college experiences, such as going to Europe). I also have a GED, so college

graduation was very meaningful to me. But instead of letting me enjoy the

moment, she humiliated me in front of my mentor and then fell asleep during the

ceremony.

Now when we talk, I just listen to her talk, comment with as much empathy as I

can muster, and try to avoid talking about anything I care about or am working

towards so she can't hurt me or undermine my efforts at bettering myself.

>

> Yes, I can relate to this. My mother didn't just complain about not being

> able to do it, but would give you a long list of the dangers you're

> experiencing in whatever it is you're doing.

>

>

> In a message dated 6/4/2010 9:20:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> climberkayak@... writes:

>

>

>

>

> I was wondering how many of you relate to this. I have a list in my mind,

> and sometimes on paper, of the big topics I won't talk about with her -

> things to keep safe. It's taken a long time to get to the point where I've

been

> able to accept that this is a necessary measure for my mental safety when

> talking to her. But then there's the little things. I literally cannot tell

> her that I went for a walk and saw some baby ducks without her responding

> with envy that there's no good place for her to walk, or that she's not

> well enough to take walks, or that there's no baby ducks where she is. It's

> like she *covets* even the smallest of positive experiences that I share.

It

> makes it damn near impossible to have anything but artificial conversation.

>

> Does anyone else see this envy in their nada for their experiences of

> life? I wonder does she feel so impoverished emotionally/spiritually that

she

> has to grasp onto and want these events in my life? Not that she'd ever go

> into therapy but I wonder how on earth such a thing could be treated.

>

> julie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, lol about the pebble - yep, you are right I'm sure she'd envy that

pebble somehow. In my mother's case she'd probably turn it into how awful it

is that her arthritis would keep her from leaning down to look at rocks and find

a pretty pebble. Trying to cue guilt/sympathy. " It must be nice " can be

undermining....but like you say you got what you did because of your hard work

and sacrifice. Your sister surely had fleas and issues as a KO too - it's not

disloyal to her to say so I don't think. Sorry again for your loss and hope

you are doing okay. How'd it go with that counselor for the complicated grief?

, " Weather, politics, and TV shows " yep, that's about what it is for me

too. And it breaks my heart. I wish it didn't. Good point about how they

dismiss our own efforts that create our successes and magnify their

contribution....or anyone elses accomplishment or difficulty. My theory is it

is all part of denying the reality of our separate individual existence.

Hummingbird, lol, yes...mine does the trying to create/magnify fears a bit but

not as badly as some. It's not exactly empowering.

Isis, geez why did your mother even bother to show up to your graduation, to

ruin it? It sounds like you made an incredible accomplishment and she just

hadn't the ability to see anything outside herself. I too try to avoid talking

about self-improvement efforts - that seems to be especially dangerous.

Frances, that's cool that you are able to have normal conversations with your

father now. A good contrast too. I had to laugh about the trees - yes I can't

bring up trees either, especially. Long story there.

julie

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

It's so weird, I had a dream this morning that I was at my computer and saw an

email from you about how I was doing. Such a strange premonition dream! Not

like a big thing like a storm or something!

But thank you for asking; I feel like my counselor is not really leading me

along into dealing with the grief but more like those sessions where I just

bring up what is bothering me. And you know, if the day I go I am not feeling

so bad about my grief, I won't bring it up. I'm not sure I will keep going.

I get what you are saying about your mom...and the pebble and arthritis. I was

talking to my mom today, and I understand she has a lot of medical problems and

she was telling me about them, I asked (it's like that is the template now for

our conversations) and then she asks how I am doing, I say one sentence and then

she is back to her. I find myself blanking out; bored.

And that is just how it is; she's too old to really change. I don't even say

really anything positive. When I was visiting San Francisco, I would call her

and that was pretty much the only times we had *normal* conversations. Give and

take, laughing, pleasure. It's weird.

But I've accepted that it is what it is with her. If my sister was still alive,

she and I would probably still be bitching about it, but ....really, there's no

where to go with it now except acceptance.

**sigh**

I hope you are doing well,

~patricia

Re: even the smallest thing

, lol about the pebble - yep, you are right I'm sure she'd envy that

pebble somehow. In my mother's case she'd probably turn it into how awful it

is that her arthritis would keep her from leaning down to look at rocks and find

a pretty pebble. Trying to cue guilt/sympathy. " It must be nice " can be

undermining....but like you say you got what you did because of your hard work

and sacrifice. Your sister surely had fleas and issues as a KO too - it's not

disloyal to her to say so I don't think. Sorry again for your loss and hope

you are doing okay. How'd it go with that counselor for the complicated grief?

, " Weather, politics, and TV shows " yep, that's about what it is for me

too. And it breaks my heart. I wish it didn't. Good point about how they

dismiss our own efforts that create our successes and magnify their

contribution....or anyone elses accomplishment or difficulty. My theory is it

is all part of denying the reality of our separate individual existence.

Hummingbird, lol, yes...mine does the trying to create/magnify fears a bit but

not as badly as some. It's not exactly empowering.

Isis, geez why did your mother even bother to show up to your graduation, to

ruin it? It sounds like you made an incredible accomplishment and she just

hadn't the ability to see anything outside herself. I too try to avoid talking

about self-improvement efforts - that seems to be especially dangerous.

Frances, that's cool that you are able to have normal conversations with your

father now. A good contrast too. I had to laugh about the trees - yes I can't

bring up trees either, especially. Long story there.

julie

------------------------------------

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To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

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From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi , wow precognitive dreams? you should harness that for the lottery!

The " what's on your mind this week " type of counselor can still be helpful, but

I've found too that I don't make much real progress doing that that type either.

I hope it's still providing some relief. My conversations with my nada have

quite a template as well - it's sad really. Sometimes I try to vary it but

often regret that. Maybe your conversations are better with her when you travel

because it shakes things up.

>

> Hi ,

> It's so weird, I had a dream this morning that I was at my computer and saw an

email from you about how I was doing. Such a strange premonition dream! Not

like a big thing like a storm or something!

> But thank you for asking; I feel like my counselor is not really leading me

along into dealing with the grief but more like those sessions where I just

bring up what is bothering me. And you know, if the day I go I am not feeling

so bad about my grief, I won't bring it up. I'm not sure I will keep going.

>

> I get what you are saying about your mom...and the pebble and arthritis. I

was talking to my mom today, and I understand she has a lot of medical problems

and she was telling me about them, I asked (it's like that is the template now

for our conversations) and then she asks how I am doing, I say one sentence and

then she is back to her. I find myself blanking out; bored.

> And that is just how it is; she's too old to really change. I don't even say

really anything positive. When I was visiting San Francisco, I would call her

and that was pretty much the only times we had *normal* conversations. Give and

take, laughing, pleasure. It's weird.

> But I've accepted that it is what it is with her. If my sister was still

alive, she and I would probably still be bitching about it, but ....really,

there's no where to go with it now except acceptance.

> **sigh**

> I hope you are doing well,

> ~patricia

> Re: even the smallest thing

>

>

> , lol about the pebble - yep, you are right I'm sure she'd envy that

pebble somehow. In my mother's case she'd probably turn it into how awful it

is that her arthritis would keep her from leaning down to look at rocks and find

a pretty pebble. Trying to cue guilt/sympathy. " It must be nice " can be

undermining....but like you say you got what you did because of your hard work

and sacrifice. Your sister surely had fleas and issues as a KO too - it's not

disloyal to her to say so I don't think. Sorry again for your loss and hope

you are doing okay. How'd it go with that counselor for the complicated grief?

>

> , " Weather, politics, and TV shows " yep, that's about what it is for me

too. And it breaks my heart. I wish it didn't. Good point about how they

dismiss our own efforts that create our successes and magnify their

contribution....or anyone elses accomplishment or difficulty. My theory is it

is all part of denying the reality of our separate individual existence.

>

> Hummingbird, lol, yes...mine does the trying to create/magnify fears a bit

but not as badly as some. It's not exactly empowering.

>

> Isis, geez why did your mother even bother to show up to your graduation, to

ruin it? It sounds like you made an incredible accomplishment and she just

hadn't the ability to see anything outside herself. I too try to avoid talking

about self-improvement efforts - that seems to be especially dangerous.

>

> Frances, that's cool that you are able to have normal conversations with

your father now. A good contrast too. I had to laugh about the trees - yes I

can't bring up trees either, especially. Long story there.

>

> julie

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I wish I could harness it; but then, who knows it could be scary! With the

therapy...I don't know. I sort of just really wanted to find someone who would

say: This is what I think is going on with you, and try this... It's sort of a

waste of money to just pay for me to go in and do this same thing over and over.

Anyway, yeah, the conversation template. What can we do? I don't really have

the energy to even try and change things.

~patricia

Re: even the smallest thing

>

>

> , lol about the pebble - yep, you are right I'm sure she'd envy

that pebble somehow. In my mother's case she'd probably turn it into how awful

it is that her arthritis would keep her from leaning down to look at rocks and

find a pretty pebble. Trying to cue guilt/sympathy. " It must be nice " can

be undermining....but like you say you got what you did because of your hard

work and sacrifice. Your sister surely had fleas and issues as a KO too - it's

not disloyal to her to say so I don't think. Sorry again for your loss and

hope you are doing okay. How'd it go with that counselor for the complicated

grief?

>

> , " Weather, politics, and TV shows " yep, that's about what it is for

me too. And it breaks my heart. I wish it didn't. Good point about how

they dismiss our own efforts that create our successes and magnify their

contribution....or anyone elses accomplishment or difficulty. My theory is it

is all part of denying the reality of our separate individual existence.

>

> Hummingbird, lol, yes...mine does the trying to create/magnify fears a bit

but not as badly as some. It's not exactly empowering.

>

> Isis, geez why did your mother even bother to show up to your graduation,

to ruin it? It sounds like you made an incredible accomplishment and she just

hadn't the ability to see anything outside herself. I too try to avoid talking

about self-improvement efforts - that seems to be especially dangerous.

>

> Frances, that's cool that you are able to have normal conversations with

your father now. A good contrast too. I had to laugh about the trees - yes I

can't bring up trees either, especially. Long story there.

>

> julie

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.