Re: Incapable of dealing with work environments

June 7, 2010

Roganda - I'm having problems with my internet connection to WTO, so I'm

replying off-board. You sound like you're having a really bad time - no

upside at all. I'm wondering if there might be any option at all for you to

make your educational background work in another field, or in another

company - or if there's any way you could pay off those student loans by

focusing on them alone, so you could free yourself earlier and have some

choices. I know that if you go back for additional training, some student

loans will go " dormant " for the time you're in school. Would that be an

option? It may sound crazy to take on more student debt at this point, but

if you really hate what you're doing, it might be a way out.

But every time you've written in, the main thing I see is your anguish about

taking on the two elderly/disabled relatives. Even if you've said you'd

take care of them, I don't think it has to be a lifetime commitment. If

it's gotten to the point that it's destroying you, I really do believe you

could excuse yourself - find a lawyer or eldercare person who will take on

their financial and legal matters for a small fee. There HAS to be some way

out of that particular swamp - what would happen if you got hit by a bus

today? Somebody would have to take over their affairs. So who is that

person/agency, and what can be done to let them take over those tasks now?

And even if you feel you must continue to handle the business affairs,

surely that doesn't mean you are the only person on earth who has any

ability/responsibility to go over there and care for them. And finally, if

they're that incompetent, get them committed to an institution where they

can be cared for. Them being old and ill does NOT automatically mean you

have to put your entire life at their service.

I had an aunt (my Nada's only sister) who was severely physically disabled.

My grandmother, and great-grandmother spent large parts of their lives

caring for her. It wasn't her fault she was disabled - she had a sweet soul

and deserved good care. However, at an early age, my mother would make me

sit and feed her, or help with her physical care, " to give Grandma a break. "

Now, there was nothing wrong with that, and learning to do patient care is

actually a good life skill for anyone - but I always got the feeling that

Nada was " grooming " me to take over in case my aunt outlived all of them.

I couldn't bring myself to tell her that I would never, ever take over the

caretaker role for my aunt. They would never have considered putting her in

a nursing facility - they thought it was their duty to care for her. I

helped out when I could, but I always knew that at some point, I'd stand my

ground and refuse to be the fourth generation to put their lives on hold.

Call it selfish, call it mean, call it whatever you want - I call it

self-preservation.

Here's the thing - you've committed no crime. You're not a felon.

Therefore, nobody has the right to keep you in prison - especially not one

that you've made for yourself. There HAS to be a way to let yourself off

the hook, even if it's just a little, even if it's just for a few minutes or

hours every day.

I'm really sorry that you're having such a bad time of it, and I really do

hope that there can be some relief for you, soon. -

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Roganda

Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 12:12 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Incapable of dealing with work environments

On another thread zizazoo posted:

" Before I became a stay at home mom, I had so many issues with this - I had

trouble with every job situation I was in because I would become irate and

obsessed with various things - that someone incompetant was in an important

position, that someone had blamed me for their own poor organization skills,

on

and on and on. I would bring this home and ramble on about it to my husband

and

my dad. I could not let it rest. And yet, unlike you, I was totally and

completely incapable of addressing the issue with the person - even

indirectly

or mildly. It was like I was paralyzed when around the person and obsessed

away

from them. And it really impacted me - it motivated me to take less

stressful,

and therefore less " prestigious " jobs. It caused me to quit positions just

because of my level of frustration. I think my issues may have even caused

me to

take jobs with toxic people because somehow they were familiar to me. I'd

like

to say that I discovered the secret of how to deal with this, but the fact

is

that I did not. Instead, I stay at home with my daughter (and one on the

way) -

which I love. But, the ghost of the problem remains because at some point my

kids will grow up, and I like to be busy and I like to learn. I will

probably

want to work. And then, I wonder if those same issues will come surging

forth

again - because at this point, I have this general apprehension and fear -

that

maybe I'm not capable of dealing with any work environment because I can't

handle the " office politics " , incompetance, however you want to characterize

it. "

I am like this, too, only the issue is the work itself. I basically chose

work I would not like and would never be good at. Because it required an

advanced degree, I am now trapped in by the student loans. If I don't do

this work, I will be sued for non-payment of student loans, mortgage, etc.

because there will be no other way to earn enough money to pay (only the

interest, mind you, on) what I owe. It's just like living in the FOO...I

suffer, and other people will benefit, not me.

It was sort of like a hidden trap, really, because when you are in school,

EVERYBODY hates it. EVERYBODY says, " It will be different when you're out in

practice. It will be different when you're out in practice. " Only for me it

wasn't different, and my lack of ability to improve to the standard I need

to improve to became apparent. (After it was already too late, that is.) I

was all alone in the world until three years ago, and even now that I'm

married my husband is 21 years older than me and most decidedly not well

off, so I do not have the option of stopping work.

I wish things had gone such that I could have recognized my bad feelings

about what I was doing while there was still time to make a change. But I

was too worried about what the FOO would think. I was too worried about

looking like a " weenie. " I agreed with what they thought, and I just thought

the future would work itself out. It didn't.

I handled this for 15 years by thinking I could write. Someday, someday,

someday, someday, I'd write that bestselling book, and then I would be

allowed to correct my mistakes in life and live a life that *I* really

wanted.

Only now I see that it doesn't happen. After ten years of getting a good

close up view of the book business, I can see that I what I was doing was

counting on a miracle, and after a HUGE disappointment in the past few years

related to writing, I can really see the wisdom of the poster in the other

thread who said not to set goals it would take a miracle to achieve.

Basically, out of six billion people on the planet, only four get to be

Cornwell, King, J. K. Rowling, or Meyer. People

like to say it's them, all them, and only them, but the fact is that it

takes an extremely fortuitous combination of circumstances to get them

there, and if you're not at that level, you're not going to make enough

money writing to feed a mouse, if you can even sell anything at all. I have

seen by my husband's experience that how well you write has very little to

do with it.

And, of course, if you get stuck with two mentally ill handicapped relatives

who pretty much take all the time you had to write anyway, you're not going

to finish anything for years and years, and you can't sell anything you

can't finish.

Hope is what kept me going all these years, and now I can see that there

isn't any hope and there never was any. And I am having a harder and harder

time shining it on. I feel like, why do this? Why do anything? I slog

through this miserable day filled with things I don't like and don't want to

do--that I chose and am now trapped in for the rest of my life--and all I

get is another miserable day filled with things I don't like and don't want

to do. It's not like I can even say that in 20 more years I can retire and

do what I want to do. I will not be able to do that. I will still owe money

in student loans and hospital bills and will have nothing. And we all know

that social security is a joke, so I can't rely on that.

I'm really depressed about all this, and also stressed by all the family

crap that is going on. (Mentally ill relatives, grandmother dying, funeral

with nada, etc.) It's hard to concentrate at work and I'm getting slower and

slower getting things done. There's this one girl who is really obnoxious

and is picking on me about it in front of everyone all the time. It's really

inappropriate, because someone at her age and level of experience doesn't

speak that way to someone of my age and level of experience, but clearly

people can get away with it with me, because I don't seem to have the

social/workplace skills to know what to do.

It really makes me feel bad, because I know I used to be able to do better,

and slow people eventually get themselves fired. I just don't want to be

there, I don't want to do that work anymore, I know I'm stuck and trapped

for the rest of my life, and I know that that great shining beacon of hope I

looked toward all these years was just a mirage. And it isn't there anymore.

I know what a stupid little child I've been all these years, and there

doesn't seem to be any way to create a better life for myself. Any way at

all.

So it's like, What am I working so hard for? It's all miserable, and none of

it's for me.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone else has had this experience. I certainly

don't know what to do about it. It seems like the only thing to do is just

keep slogging on and on, even though life has become a completely joyless

experience.

It seems like with all I've been through, God could spare me a little help.

My chance to choose a work environment I could have liked and done well in

is long gone. I've prayed and prayed and prayed to God for another chance.

Now that I've learned the lesson, it seems I'm just going to pay the

consequences for the rest of my life and not get a chance to do things right

the next time. There won't be a next time.

Whatever.

--LL.

June 8, 2010

dear, dear one, who wrote the wonderful dinner with a bp.. i can hear your deep,

deep sadness here, hopelessness even.. you sound like you have a lot of pain,

depression.. i urge you to get some help for yourself.. these kinds of feelings

can build up and build up over time and can feel like they will never end but

with help they can lift and life can seem hopeful and better again. Â do you

have anyone in your life you can trust to talk to about these things? a trusted

friend, a counselor, a dr.? Â have you ever tried taking medication for

depression? Â maybe this is just a blip on your screen and will pass soon, but

it sounds chronic to me and i am concerned for you.. with help it can be better

for you.. life can seem worthwhile again. Â i have been where you are in my life

before and i have pulled thru it.. what had seemed totally a trap and totally

hopeless for the rest of my life has turned around. Â i wish you the best in

this. . you deserve better.

Â ann

Subject: Incapable of dealing with work environments

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 11:11 AM

Â

On another thread zizazoo posted:

" Before I became a stay at home mom, I had so many issues with this - I had

trouble with every job situation I was in because I would become irate and

obsessed with various things - that someone incompetant was in an important

position, that someone had blamed me for their own poor organization skills, on

and on and on. I would bring this home and ramble on about it to my husband and

my dad. I could not let it rest. And yet, unlike you, I was totally and

completely incapable of addressing the issue with the person - even indirectly

or mildly. It was like I was paralyzed when around the person and obsessed away

from them. And it really impacted me - it motivated me to take less stressful,

and therefore less " prestigious " jobs. It caused me to quit positions just

because of my level of frustration. I think my issues may have even caused me to

take jobs with toxic people because somehow they were familiar to me. I'd like

to say that I discovered the secret of how to deal with this, but the fact is

that I did not. Instead, I stay at home with my daughter (and one on the way) -

which I love. But, the ghost of the problem remains because at some point my

kids will grow up, and I like to be busy and I like to learn. I will probably

want to work. And then, I wonder if those same issues will come surging forth

again - because at this point, I have this general apprehension and fear - that

maybe I'm not capable of dealing with any work environment because I can't

handle the " office politics " , incompetance, however you want to characterize

it. "

I am like this, too, only the issue is the work itself. I basically chose work

I would not like and would never be good at. Because it required an advanced

degree, I am now trapped in by the student loans. If I don't do this work, I

will be sued for non-payment of student loans, mortgage, etc. because there will

be no other way to earn enough money to pay (only the interest, mind you, on)

what I owe. It's just like living in the FOO...I suffer, and other people will

benefit, not me.

It was sort of like a hidden trap, really, because when you are in school,

EVERYBODY hates it. EVERYBODY says, " It will be different when you're out in

practice. It will be different when you're out in practice. " Only for me it

wasn't different, and my lack of ability to improve to the standard I need to

improve to became apparent. (After it was already too late, that is.) I was

all alone in the world until three years ago, and even now that I'm married my

husband is 21 years older than me and most decidedly not well off, so I do not

have the option of stopping work.

I wish things had gone such that I could have recognized my bad feelings about

what I was doing while there was still time to make a change. But I was too

worried about what the FOO would think. I was too worried about looking like a

" weenie. " I agreed with what they thought, and I just thought the future would

work itself out. It didn't.

I handled this for 15 years by thinking I could write. Someday, someday,

someday, someday, I'd write that bestselling book, and then I would be allowed

to correct my mistakes in life and live a life that *I* really wanted.

Only now I see that it doesn't happen. After ten years of getting a good close

up view of the book business, I can see that I what I was doing was counting on

a miracle, and after a HUGE disappointment in the past few years related to

writing, I can really see the wisdom of the poster in the other thread who said

not to set goals it would take a miracle to achieve. Basically, out of six

billion people on the planet, only four get to be Cornwell,

King, J. K. Rowling, or Meyer. People like to say it's them, all

them, and only them, but the fact is that it takes an extremely fortuitous

combination of circumstances to get them there, and if you're not at that level,

you're not going to make enough money writing to feed a mouse, if you can even

sell anything at all. I have seen by my husband's experience that how well you

write has very little to do with it.

And, of course, if you get stuck with two mentally ill handicapped relatives who

pretty much take all the time you had to write anyway, you're not going to

finish anything for years and years, and you can't sell anything you can't

finish.

Hope is what kept me going all these years, and now I can see that there isn't

any hope and there never was any. And I am having a harder and harder time

shining it on. I feel like, why do this? Why do anything? I slog through this

miserable day filled with things I don't like and don't want to do--that I chose

and am now trapped in for the rest of my life--and all I get is another

miserable day filled with things I don't like and don't want to do. It's not

like I can even say that in 20 more years I can retire and do what I want to do.

I will not be able to do that. I will still owe money in student loans and

hospital bills and will have nothing. And we all know that social security is a

joke, so I can't rely on that.

I'm really depressed about all this, and also stressed by all the family crap

that is going on. (Mentally ill relatives, grandmother dying, funeral with

nada, etc.) It's hard to concentrate at work and I'm getting slower and slower

getting things done. There's this one girl who is really obnoxious and is

picking on me about it in front of everyone all the time. It's really

inappropriate, because someone at her age and level of experience doesn't speak

that way to someone of my age and level of experience, but clearly people can

get away with it with me, because I don't seem to have the social/workplace

skills to know what to do.

It really makes me feel bad, because I know I used to be able to do better, and

slow people eventually get themselves fired. I just don't want to be there, I

don't want to do that work anymore, I know I'm stuck and trapped for the rest of

my life, and I know that that great shining beacon of hope I looked toward all

these years was just a mirage. And it isn't there anymore. I know what a

stupid little child I've been all these years, and there doesn't seem to be any

way to create a better life for myself. Any way at all.

So it's like, What am I working so hard for? It's all miserable, and none of

it's for me.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone else has had this experience. I certainly don't

know what to do about it. It seems like the only thing to do is just keep

slogging on and on, even though life has become a completely joyless experience.

It seems like with all I've been through, God could spare me a little help. My

chance to choose a work environment I could have liked and done well in is long

gone. I've prayed and prayed and prayed to God for another chance. Now that

I've learned the lesson, it seems I'm just going to pay the consequences for the

rest of my life and not get a chance to do things right the next time. There

won't be a next time.

Whatever.

--LL.

June 9, 2010

Dear Ann,

Thanks for the support. I hope you are right about things changing and getting

better one day. Realistically, however, when it is the book business you are

talking about, you'd better not count on it.

I imagine I haven't gone to get counseling for several reasons. One is money.

Plainly put, there isn't any extra. (Well, there is, but if you think I am

going to give up nine days off at the beach working on my novel when I have

never, never been able to afford a vacation for myself EVER since I graduated

from college--and it's a trip my husband and I can take together while we are

still able and both in good health--in order to go to therapy...um, no. Sorry.)

Second is time. Due to taking care of my bipolar 86 year old great aunt and

handicapped cousin, I don't have but a day or so every two weeks to write. If

you think I am going to give that up to go to therapy...well, ditto.

Thirdly, I guess I am ashamed of the stupid, childish stuff I thought was going

to work out in my life. I really don't want to look someone in the eye and

admit that I was ever that dumb. Especially when I was told and told and told

and told by industry professionals who should know that it was impossible. I

was living in Disneyland... " When you wish upon a star, " that sort of rot.

Anyhow, something happened yesterday that threw things into sharp relief. I was

eating lunch with a coworker and somehow the conversation came around to where

she mentioned that, with the exception of a couple of areas, she actually

thought I was very good at my job, and she said she told people so a lot. I had

no idea at all about any of this. And I said, " Well, you know, if you're in

this field, and you can't do X and Y, you never hear anything good. You never,

never, never hear *anything* good. "

And it's the truth. No matter where I've worked, and I've worked a lot of

places, good things about people in my position are seldom EVER said where the

person in question ever hears about it. But you sure will hear about X and

Y...on and on and on. Even though your time spent doing X, which is not even

the main thing I was hired for, is or may be nowhere nearly as great as the time

spent doing what I do.

And then I began to think that I really do have good reason to be depressed, and

always did. How many of us, growing up in our homes of origin with our nadas,

GREW UP HEARING ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES???

Chances are we didn't. Or if we did, it was because and only because something

we did happened to coincide with something that shored up nada for the moment in

her mental illness. And it came mixed in with a goodly amount of spankings,

hitting, and verbal abuse that we were assured we deserved. No wonder we went

off on crooked paths in life and don't believe anything good about ourselves if

we don't hear it said once in a while.

Now, if you subscribe to the New Age theory, you are " just supposed to believe

it " even if you don't see/hear it. HOWEVER, we as KO's grew up with people who

did just this very thing, in *error*, every day. We lived with it, and we saw

what it could do. So we...I...don't want to believe a single thing that there

isn't the evidence to prove that it really is true. Which is why such advice as

" Believe that one day you will get published and make enough money, " " Believe

that you really are good enough at what you do, " doesn't work for me. I've

believed stupid things without any evidence for years in the past, and it made

me look stupid and it made nada look stupid for years, too. And it never did

any good.

So when time goes on and on and on without any evidence that things really

aren't as bad as I think they are, how am I supposed to know differently? I'm

not going to get it by osmosis, and I'm not going to get it by ESP. I never

hear anything good, only bad, so of course I'm going to assume things are bad

(especially when they've always been bad anyway). So of course I'm going to

feel bad.

I have to say, coworker's comment made me feel a lot better. One thing for us

KO's, we do have the talent of taking one tiny crumb of something positive and

making it into a whole loaf. We missed out on the loaf that other people got in

their FOO, but when we get a crumb, we sure don't take it for granted.

Thanks for listening.

--.

June 9, 2010

Yeah. I hear you there. Especially the " all I'm ever going to get are crumbs. "

It's good to be capable of being OK with crumbs if that's all you really are

ever going to get; but even a mouse needs a certain number of crumbs in order to

be healthy and go about its mouse business. When you don't have enough crumbs,

and you've never had enough crumbs, and no more are falling from the

table...well, I tend to get angry.

It seems like we live in a world where only a few people get to have enough, and

wealth flows up and up into the hands of these few, who rewrite the rules to

favor themselves and get richer and richer. The rest of us are working harder

and harder and harder for less and less and less every year.

It's hard to see this and believe the situation will ever turn around for *me*

specifically, when I'm looking at millions it won't turn around for, either.

--.

June 10, 2010

Yes, I know what that's like. But please do believe the woman at work who told

you you do a great job. Accept the praise. Accept that you are a good person

who contributes a lot. I know everyone on this board is valuable to the

community we have hear. Just reading your post, I can tell you are a giving and

generous person (taking care of your relatives) and you are a hard worker who

pursues her dreams(writing) despite obstacles. Those are qualities that a lot

of people don't have.

I know what you mean about accepting crumbs, and the worst part about it is, we

train other people to treat us this way as well. Other people see we are

satisfied with crumbs and that's what we get. Who was it that said' we teach

other people how to treat us " ?

Well, it's great you are married and can have intimacy despite being a KO. And,

it's great that you are valuable at work. And it's great that you are pursuing

writing.

Take care of yourself each day. you don't have to carry the burdens of the

world. It's not all our fault.

Hugs,

Walking to Happienss

>

> Hi ,

> It's funny you mention crumbs; I've spent my life being *okay* with any crumbs

> I might get rather than the whole loaf.

> That is a belief about myself: All I deserve are crumbs, or All I can ever

hope to expect

> are crumbs.

> I guess to change our thoughts about ourselves we have to root out the beliefs

we have

> that were given to us. And have become habitual. I am trying to work on

that, but it's

> strange how comforting the habit is.

> ~patricia

> Re: Incapable of dealing with work environments

>

> Dear Ann,

>

> Thanks for the support. I hope you are right about things changing and

getting better one day. Realistically, however, when it is the book business

you are talking about, you'd better not count on it.

>

> I imagine I haven't gone to get counseling for several reasons. One is

money. Plainly put, there isn't any extra. (Well, there is, but if you think I

am going to give up nine days off at the beach working on my novel when I have

never, never been able to afford a vacation for myself EVER since I graduated

from college--and it's a trip my husband and I can take together while we are

still able and both in good health--in order to go to therapy...um, no. Sorry.)

Second is time. Due to taking care of my bipolar 86 year old great aunt and

handicapped cousin, I don't have but a day or so every two weeks to write. If

you think I am going to give that up to go to therapy...well, ditto.

>

> Thirdly, I guess I am ashamed of the stupid, childish stuff I thought was

going to work out in my life. I really don't want to look someone in the eye

and admit that I was ever that dumb. Especially when I was told and told and

told and told by industry professionals who should know that it was impossible.

I was living in Disneyland... " When you wish upon a star, " that sort of rot.

>

> Anyhow, something happened yesterday that threw things into sharp relief. I

was eating lunch with a coworker and somehow the conversation came around to

where she mentioned that, with the exception of a couple of areas, she actually

thought I was very good at my job, and she said she told people so a lot. I had

no idea at all about any of this. And I said, " Well, you know, if you're in

this field, and you can't do X and Y, you never hear anything good. You never,

never, never hear *anything* good. "

>

> And it's the truth. No matter where I've worked, and I've worked a lot of

places, good things about people in my position are seldom EVER said where the

person in question ever hears about it. But you sure will hear about X and

Y...on and on and on. Even though your time spent doing X, which is not even

the main thing I was hired for, is or may be nowhere nearly as great as the time

spent doing what I do.

>

> And then I began to think that I really do have good reason to be depressed,

and always did. How many of us, growing up in our homes of origin with our

nadas, GREW UP HEARING ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES???

>

> Chances are we didn't. Or if we did, it was because and only because

something we did happened to coincide with something that shored up nada for the

moment in her mental illness. And it came mixed in with a goodly amount of

spankings, hitting, and verbal abuse that we were assured we deserved. No

wonder we went off on crooked paths in life and don't believe anything good

about ourselves if we don't hear it said once in a while.

>

> Now, if you subscribe to the New Age theory, you are " just supposed to

believe it " even if you don't see/hear it. HOWEVER, we as KO's grew up with

people who did just this very thing, in *error*, every day. We lived with it,

and we saw what it could do. So we...I...don't want to believe a single thing

that there isn't the evidence to prove that it really is true. Which is why

such advice as " Believe that one day you will get published and make enough

money, " " Believe that you really are good enough at what you do, " doesn't work

for me. I've believed stupid things without any evidence for years in the past,

and it made me look stupid and it made nada look stupid for years, too. And it

never did any good.

>

> So when time goes on and on and on without any evidence that things really

aren't as bad as I think they are, how am I supposed to know differently? I'm

not going to get it by osmosis, and I'm not going to get it by ESP. I never

hear anything good, only bad, so of course I'm going to assume things are bad

(especially when they've always been bad anyway). So of course I'm going to

feel bad.

>

> I have to say, coworker's comment made me feel a lot better. One thing for

us KO's, we do have the talent of taking one tiny crumb of something positive

and making it into a whole loaf. We missed out on the loaf that other people

got in their FOO, but when we get a crumb, we sure don't take it for granted.

>

> Thanks for listening.

>

> --.

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

June 11, 2010

thanks for your comments here.. and i agree with much of what you say.. i

wouldn't trade any of those things you mention for therapy either, they are too

nourishing.. but i still think you could benefit from such.. a clinic with a

sliding scale perhaps once every 2 weeks or so with a good experienced social

worker (as i do) could do wonders for your inquiring, depressed mind i believe.

Â if this one good comment about your work could make such a difference, think

of what an informed, empathetic listener in your corner with you puzzling out

your experiences and goals could do.. ? Â i would give it some thot if i were

you, but after all perhaps it is not for you at this time, or ever. Â as far as

being stupid.. well, your writing belies any stupidity, rather a searching and

clear thinking mind.. and after all, who among us has not made mistakes in the

past?

just my 2 cents worth. i wish you the best.ann

Subject: Re: Incapable of dealing with work environments

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 9:40 AM