Re: I have a crazy question

[Guest guest]

I think of it like this: If the rest of the world is saying, " That wall is

black " and Nada swears on her life it's white and then cries because everyone

obviously hates her and will leave her because they don't agree that she's RIGHT

- that's insane and she's crazy.

Insane is not about holding to your truths, they're perception based, it's about

assigning emotional judgement and value to other people's perceptions of truth

and somehow turning it into a personal statement always against YOU... and then

upping the ante by reacting to that on a regular basis.

Lynnette

>

> I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about crazy-making

> behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people with

> BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if they

> reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother was very

> out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of psychosis.

>

> Who defines crazy anyway?

>

> Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more sense to

> me in some odd way.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I second that question. It is so hard to understand how she can be allowed to

continue being independant as she goes futher and further down hill with this.

Even though I didn't know anything about BPD until a month or so ago, I decided

years ago she had to be crazy. It made me feel better in a strange way. It was

either just bad or crazy. I can live with crazy easier than bad.

>

> I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about crazy-making

> behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people with

> BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if they

> reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother was very

> out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of psychosis.

>

> Who defines crazy anyway?

>

> Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more sense to

> me in some odd way.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

BP s have a diagnosable emotional disorder. They are not, at least not

always, psychotic, but they are not , let us say, on good terms with

reality and emotional stability.

Originally, Borderline was so called because it was thought to be a

disorder that bordered on psychotic and neurotic, without being fully

diagnosed as either.

Any KO will readily tell you though, that yes, your mom was crazy. And

she was a carrier, she tried to pass it to you.

Doug

>

> I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about

crazy-making

> behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people

with

> BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if

they

> reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother

was very

> out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of

psychosis.

>

> Who defines crazy anyway?

>

> Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more

sense to

> me in some odd way.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I've been NC completely for almost three years now, and I am only just now

beginning to understand in my gut that nada was honestly insane. She would say

to me all the time, 'I think I have alzheimers' or 'Ooo! I feel scattered'. But

my fada was NPD, and required that we pretend the family was perfect, and also

as a young child I needed to believe my 'mother' was all there, so that I could

feel physically safe. So I just let it go, pretended she really wasn't crazy.

But really, I think she is. I think that, although she could 'function' and

mask herself in polite society, in reality she was bat s** nuts. As early as

high school we had nicknames for her that involed the word 'crazy' in one way or

another.

Now that I have been away from her for three years, it's amazing to me to think

of the way she talked, the things she said. The things she *repeated*, like a

twisted evil sexually abusive robot, OVER and over and over and over. The ways

she was OBSESSED with certain things, and never ever ever let up on the topic.

The way she could not hold a normal conversation.

And of course, the way she presented herself as the child, not the parent. Once

when I was 3 years old, I burned myself severely with a hot curling iron, trying

to do my hair like my pretty mother did. I have no memory whatsoever of the

pain, but I remember my desperate mother, shaky voice, out of control, running

my head under the bathtub. I was more scared of her than any pain I was

feeling. She tried to make me comfort her desperate panic--and I was THREE. I

remember her calling my aunt, who was 15 years younger than she and NOT a nurse,

and asking her what to do. Looking back today (as I've been processing this), I

see that nada had left the iron hot and unattended even though she had several

infants in the house. Up til then I never even realized it might not be my

fault. I still have a scar on my forehead from this incident.

I realize now that noone repeats the SAME stock phrases, over and over and over

again, unless they are nuts. That noone sexually abuses their daughter--or even

SEES their daughter, sexually--unless they are NUTS. My nada was insane. BPD,

it means you are crazy. I only survived because I created split selves, and

because the remainder of my extended family and my community stepped in and

showed me what normal was, so that I would have something to *pretend* was

happening in my own house.

But yes. She was CRAZY. Crazy as a loon. She should not have been allowed to

raise me. I hope that more research is done on BPD. It is truly a disorder.

If a 'mother' truly has bpd, it is a serious, serious matter, and children do

NOT come out of it undamaged. If they do not get bpd themselves, they will be

on the MPD/PTSD continuum, or have addictions, or be very violent. BPD is a

serious disorder. My nada was truly, truly, NUTS. She could not think

straight. She could not communicate. She was not a *serious* person, but a

threat, to be managed as best was possible, and I knew this even before I could

talk.

Yes. Some nadas, if not all nadas, are truly, truly, CRAZY.

--ChhC

> >

> > I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about crazy-making

> > behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people with

> > BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if they

> > reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother was

very

> > out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of psychosis.

> >

> > Who defines crazy anyway?

> >

> > Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more sense to

> > me in some odd way.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

--

I forgot exactly which book I read this--I think it is Randi Kreger's most

recent.

Yes, in fact, BPs do go through moments of psychosis. When they attack you,

they literally do " black out. " That is what happened when you were

hurt/crying/upset and she suddnely looked kind of surprised. Like . . .what are

you crying about and what just happened? She had literally just come out of a

psychotic eposide, and genuinely did not remember hurting you.

Also, I've learned from my NP/BP ex-husband (and from nada, in retrospect) that

they have seasons where their insanity is stronger. My ex-husband was

relatively calm and highly functional for a long, long time. All of his BP was

kept quiet and rarely came out except in extremely subtle ways. Then, he went

through 4-5 years of pure, full-blown BP behaviors. (A nice way of saying he

was bat***t crazy and crazy destructive to boot). He still has all of his

stuff, but he recently started to settle down into a more high functioning

person. I'm certainly not fooled into thinking he is safe or okay, but, for the

time being, his BP is less obvious. My mother also went through a really bad

season when I was 11. It got better, and came back within the last 5 years.

I think this is what makes it so tricky. Their moments of psychosis are

genuine, but they are also genuinely random. Usually, a BP has some sort of

grasp on reality--unlike, say, someone who is schizophrenic. The BP's psychosis

comes in flashes, and they hide them pretty well. I think they just get used to

covering them, and assume everyone else has the same problem.

The last conversation I had with my mother, I set some pretty firm boundaries

and actually (gasp) expressed anger. She said one thing again and again: " When

you realize what you are saying, you are going to feel horrible. You are out of

your head right now, and you don't know what you are saying. When you come to,

you are going to have to deal with such horrible guilt. " She was genuinely

scared for me, and trying to " help " me with fearful warnings.

For a long time I was furious and wounded that she would accuse me of being

insane. After all, I was voicing a legitimate grief she had done against me.

Then, I realized she was speaking her reality. When she gets angry, she blacks

out. She goes " out of her head " and doesn't remember what she said or did. The

only way she knows what she has done is when someone repeats it back to her.

And then, she is horrified. (Which, of course, triggers an attack at the

messenger for making her feel that way).

Hope this helps. This is tricky, to be sure!!!

Blessings,

Karla

>

> I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about crazy-making

> behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people with

> BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if they

> reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother was very

> out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of psychosis.

>

> Who defines crazy anyway?

>

> Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more sense to

> me in some odd way.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I dont know why they changed this...it does fit them...

Jackie

Originally, Borderline was so called because it was thought to be a

disorder that bordered on psychotic and neurotic, without being fully

diagnosed as either.

Any KO will readily tell you though, that yes, your mom was crazy. And

she was a carrier, she tried to pass it to you.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Borderline, is just that, borderlining other disorders on the DSM.

My mother was schitzophrenic at various times, causing her to have delusions,

try and kill me, killed my dog, tried to kill my dad. But for the most part,

people were completely taken in by her angelic victim role.

I inquired about getting her committed, but apparently she had to have done

something to prove she was a danger to herself or others.

She thinks everyone else is insane.

>

> I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about crazy-making

> behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people with

> BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if they

> reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother was very

> out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of psychosis.

>

> Who defines crazy anyway?

>

> Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more sense to

> me in some odd way.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would consider my nada crazy !! her thought process and her conclusions

are so far in left field...and she gets so upset and says we hate her if we

dont agree with her...even when we can prove her wrong to show her it has

nothing to do with her personally...thats certainly not a sane person

Jackie

I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about crazy-making

behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people with

BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if they

reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother was

very

out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of psychosis.

Who defines crazy anyway?

Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more sense to

me in some odd way.

[Guest guest]

Wow - Karla, you described my nada perfectly! YES! I've seen her do this -

become delusional almost - and she is not even aware that it happened. It can

be momentary, or last for a long, long time. But then there are periods of

" normal " in between, which makes it very confusing. And the randomness - we

never know what is going to set her off! Many times I think the " delusional "

moments are directly tied to abuse in her past because they are so similar in

intensity and content. I've also seen her get so completely wrapped up in the

delusion that she literally can't talk or think about anything else!

My dishrag fada also ends up completely supporting her delusions, which makes

the rest of us think we are going crazy.

It is so nice to find a place where people understand this!!!

-

> >

> > I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about crazy-making

> > behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people with

> > BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if they

> > reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother was

very

> > out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of psychosis.

> >

> > Who defines crazy anyway?

> >

> > Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more sense to

> > me in some odd way.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

These last few days, I've been dealing with nada's mini-me. My sister, to be

exact.

I was always fearful and paranoid when she was around. I felt scared and

insecure and always had the vague impression everyone's opinion had shifted

against me. Putting her obvious smear campaigns to the side (she joined my

small church for the sole purpose of getting everyone to hate me, and was proud

to let me know how hard she worked on it). . .

Much of my fear was based on the fact I couldn't say no to my sister or draw

boundaries. It was: 1) because she was so crafty and insidious about it and

**I thought** people bought everything she said, 2) I had a rather delusional

view of her in that I thought every one else saw her as normal (big fat lie--she

is as strange as h*** but I couldn't ever see it) and 3) I was terrified of her

because I had been trained since her birth that she owned me fully and

completely.

For me to defend myself or even say " ow! " was the highest form of heresy--she

was higher than God, and my job was to gratefully take whatever kind of

destruction she had a whim to create. And that isn't even touching on her

stealing from me, breaking into my house, etc. etc. etc.

So . . .I think the more I came to grips with who she is--a strange, social

misfit who is a crafty but weak bully, the more the paranoia felt like paranoia.

She is no longer in charge of me. Period. And all of her craftiness works only

if I allow her in my circles and don't call her out.

It seems the more I work on a healthy understanding of myself, the less my

psyche tries to cling to the crap that I'm easily hated.

Here's my theory: Whenever you are in a situation where insanity can pop at

random AND you have no defenses against that insanity, you start to become

paranoid. If you can't defend yourself against the " surprise " destruction when

it comes at you, you have to defend yourself against everything and everyone all

the time. It would be the only way to stay safe.

So . . .I wonder if some of this will go away as you begin to find your own

sense of self and find ways to defend yourself and your boundaries. Maybe that

will increase your overall sense of safety around people.

Hope that makes sense. I'm sorry you have to live under this cloud. You seem

like a very likeable person. After all, if they despised you, they wouldn't

invite you to their parties!! It sounds like you have a great deal of lasting

rapport with people--they want you around, and go out of their way to make sure

you can be in their company. That means they think highly of you. No joke.

Hmmm . . .

Blessings,

Karla

>

> I just have one simple question...I know all the terms about crazy-making

> behaviors and that what BPD's do feels crazy to us, but...Are people with

> BPD certifiably insane (ie, crazy)? Are they only labeled crazy if they

> reach psychosis and where is psychosis defined? I believe my mother was very

> out of touch with reality and many times breached the border of psychosis.

>

> Who defines crazy anyway?

>

> Thinking my mother was insane (literally), makes my life make more sense to

> me in some odd way.

>

>

>

>