Re: what to feel and think about father

[Guest guest]

I think my youngest brother is in this position. His wife is one of the least

maternal people I have ever met. And since we watched my oldest brother try to

divorce a borderline and get custody (the first feat took ten years and the

second was unsuccessful), he knows that the courts will not help him. It will

probably be a few years before he fully accepts his wife's mental instability

but even then I don't know if he will leave, for the sake of his two sons.

Thanks be to the gods she is forcing him to get a vasectomy at the end of this

month, it gives me chills to think what this woman could do to a daughter, based

on how she is with her toddlers. My brother is definitely going to be the

dishrag dad though. She is not worth dealing with, so he mostly just goes along.

>

> I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have understood

that I want to break off contact with nada, family friends, extended relatives,

people like that. However, I often get asked " but your dad...? "

> I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like the normal

not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with emotions, like that.

>

> I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so much anger

for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I was angry because

I felt like he should have protected his children before caring for his nutty

wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to yell at him to divorce his wife (my

nada).

>

> But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think if he had

divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a custody battle with a

nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me again. Nada would have

split him completely terrible. It could have been worse.

>

> Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create some kind of

buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his children to grow up

with both parents in the home, older values...

>

> Any thoughts/feelings?

> Hugs,

> Walkingto Happiness

>

[Guest guest]

I think that fathers who stay with nadas do it for a variety of

reasons and that at least some of them do the best they can. I

was lucky. When my nada went off the deep end, she went far

enough that there was no question about who was in the wrong and

my father had no trouble keeping the house and custody of my

brother and me. If my father had tried to get rid of her a few

years sooner, before she'd had an affair and made me tell him

about it, most judges would probably have seen fit to give her

custody. Back then, custody went to mothers unless there was

some really good reason to do otherwise.

Whether or not fathers choose to stay married to nadas, they

should try to protect their children. Nadas are good at hiding

what they're doing though. Mine mostly hid her emotional abuse

from my father and when he did see some of it, he didn't have

the rest of the story to let him add up how bad she was. Some

fathers act like dishrags and just let nadas be abusive without

doing anything even when it happens right in front of them.

Those are the ones who I think we really have the right to be

angry at.

I think you're asking the right questions now. When deciding how

you feel about your father, I think you need to look at what he

knew about your nada's behavior and what choices he could have

made differently. Maybe he did fail to protect you when he could

have done so. Maybe not. Even if he could have done better,

maybe he didn't realize what he should do at the time. It is

easy to look back and see what could have been done, but it can

be much harder for the people involved to know which choices are

the right ones at the time they're making them. If he did the

best he could in a bad situation, I wouldn't hold on to too much

anger towards him.

At 09:15 PM 07/07/2010 walkingto_happiness wrote:

>I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

>understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

>friends, extended relatives, people like that. However, I

>often get asked " but your dad...? "

>I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more

>like the normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard

>time with emotions, like that.

>

>I went through a period during the last few years, where I had

>so much anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on

>this board. I was angry because I felt like he should have

>protected his children before caring for his nutty wife. When

>I was a teenager, too, I used to yell at him to divorce his

>wife (my nada).

>

>But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I

>think if he had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can

>you imagine a custody battle with a nada? Nada probably would

>have never let him see me again. Nada would have split him

>completely terrible. It could have been worse.

>

>Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to

>create some kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe

>he wanted his children to grow up with both parents in the

>home, older values...

>

>Any thoughts/feelings?

>Hugs,

>Walkingto Happiness

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

You should read the book Splitting, available on BPD Central, about

divorcing BP spouses. They are so manipulative and compelling that

they can dominate the proceedings until it is too late.

Aside from that, my dad divorced my nada when I was 14. But guess who

got left to be raised by nada and deal with 4 more years of her stuff,

until I was old enough to join the damn Navy and get the hell out? You

guessed it sports fans, watashi! Me.

In the interest of keeping this post short, living alone with a BP mom

is the 7th level of hell.

Doug

>

> I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family friends,

extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked " but

your dad...? "

> I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like the

normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

emotions, like that.

>

> I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so much

anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I was

angry because I felt like he should have protected his children before

caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to yell

at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

>

> But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think if he

had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a custody

battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could have

been worse.

>

> Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create some

kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

>

> Any thoughts/feelings?

> Hugs,

> Walkingto Happiness

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, Doug that really bites. I can't imagine being alone with nada as a child.

I had a father who was there, and he went on long business trips and left us

children alone with nada for months at a time, so I can relate somewhat, and I

do have anger at him for that.

But, he was there sometimes, and so I got a taste of what a nurturing parent

COULD be... he was more of a normal parent, although he never stood up to nada,

he walked on eggshells like the rest of us, and trained us to walk on eggshells.

I always thought the term " Dishrag Father " on here refers to this behavior: of

not standing up to nada while she is in Ozzy behavior mode. Do we actually have

an exact definition of " Dishrag Father " on here?

I don't know, my feelings and thoughts about my father are not easy to

understand. He was a good parent when he was there, and when he was there, he

did provide a space where I could go and talk about what was happening, but it

didn't seem like he did much, he just allowed me to talk and would commiserate

with me. One T I saw interpreted this as my father using me to talk about his

pain and hurt... I don't know how to interpret it.

I do know that I lived for those times when nada would leave the house and only

father and I would be there. The stress and nervousness level of the house

would go down by about 120% to a normal relaxed and communicative atmosphere.

Of course, when nada would get home, she would blame me and hate me and be

jealous of me for the attention I would get from father. She hated that he I

and could have conversations at a relaxed frequency that she could not attain;

or maybe she hated that she could not control our relaxed frequency. Yes, those

times when nada was not around and I got to be alone with father were the normal

moments in my childhood, and the only reason I am able to survive the whole

childhood. My father was the only nurturing parent I had.

Yet, at the same time, those times when we could be alone were scarce because

nada controlled him so much, and she would really abuse him after I spent any

time with him. Sometimes, when I was split good, she tolerated our time alone

without her. I guess I ought to give nada credit for controlling herself in

those times? Or is that Ozzy of me?

And I had a lot of anger at father for not protecting me when things got really

bad in my teen years. He was less nurturing then, and really listened to nada's

interpretations a lot, although some scary things happened; nada endangered

father's life in that time. Nada was on full force when I was going through the

teen years.

THe thing that makes me most mad is that he put up with that treatment. he let

her abuse him. As a role model in terms of modelling relationships and what

love his, he really sucked.

But I have mixed feelings because he also is a victim here, too.

It's all really complicated.

I did have to cut him off when I went NC over 5 years ago, and I think that is

understandable: I had to take myself completely out of the BP system to heal

myself and my mind. But now nada has complete control over him.

The chances of me having that alone time with him without nada are slim.

And, it's strange, when I contemplate resuming contact with him, I think of him

in all these stages of life. It would be hard to see him and not have all these

emotions come up. It's not like we are relating as two adults today in 2010,

but rather, it would be all the different ages of myself with all the different

feelings I have felt towards him over the years being present.

It seems like it would be too hard for right now, to see him again.

I feel so many confusing emotions about my father.

Can anyone relate?

HUGS

walkingto Happiness

> >

> > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family friends,

> extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked " but

> your dad...? "

> > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like the

> normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> emotions, like that.

> >

> > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so much

> anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I was

> angry because I felt like he should have protected his children before

> caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to yell

> at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> >

> > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think if he

> had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a custody

> battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could have

> been worse.

> >

> > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create some

> kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> >

> > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > Hugs,

> > Walkingto Happiness

> >

>

[Guest guest]

WTH

I can relate. My emotions about my dad are very complex. I love him

and admire a lot about him, wanted to be more involved than I was with

him as an adult.

As a child, he traveled and was away for school and so I was alone with

nada a lot. I naturally clung to him as the sane influence in my life.

When he divorced and moved away to raise a new family, it made me

suddenly a red headed step child.

I characterize my relationship as always welcome, never invited. You

can show up any time and I m happy to see you, but it would never occur

to me to simply call and say hey lets grab dinner.

So, yes, complex, love, admiration, hurt, bitterness, abandonment ( not

the imagined kind nada s obsessed about, but for real. Still, have to

wonder how being really abandoned was impacted by living with a BP and

her crazy fear of it ), empty longing.

The biggest bone in my throat is, every one bailed on her craziness,

Dad, her sister, uncles, friends, and that I understand. But she was so

crazy you couldn' t stand to stay around her, and you left a

defenseless teenage boy to cope the best he could?

Ever wonder how that worked out, Dad? You left when I was 14. I m 54.

I m still in therapy. I m healing slowly, but I m healing. You were

supposed to protect me. That crazy bitch couldn't do it. Couldn't, not

wouldn't, I understand she was nutso. But that doesn't change the result

on us, does it.

Doug

> > >

> > > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> > understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

friends,

> > extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked

" but

> > your dad...? "

> > > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like

the

> > normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> > emotions, like that.

> > >

> > > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so

much

> > anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I

was

> > angry because I felt like he should have protected his children

before

> > caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to

yell

> > at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> > >

> > > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think

if he

> > had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a

custody

> > battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> > again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could

have

> > been worse.

> > >

> > > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create

some

> > kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> > children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> > >

> > > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > > Hugs,

> > > Walkingto Happiness

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Doug,

Your email struck a strong chord with me. What you said about your father.

And have felt much the same ways, that I wanted to be more involved with him

but he was more like what you said: welcome but never invited. Except maybe

in the second to last year of his life, he actually invited his three kids to

dinner

at he and his second wife's house. That happened maybe twice.

I always made the effort to see him when I visited town. But I stayed with my

mom. My mom was not as horrible as some of the mom's people talk about,

But she definitely had her ways to drastically mess up my mental life. And I

feel

resentment towards my father in how he left us with her. He would go work long

hours and see his mistress no doubt. Work on weekends, watch football

endlessly.

Meanwhile here are these little girls and a boy who had to deal with this waify

mom.

With all these intense needs, and suicide threats, and clinginess. My brother

would

just vanish to his room.

To top it all off, my dad left all his assets to his wife; nothing at all to us

kids, not

a possession, not a memento, nothing. I sat with her while my dad was dying;

helped her,

talked with her. But she has made no outreach towards us kids; I wrote a letter

to her

asking for her to help me to understand why it was this way with my dad. No

answer.

(this was over a year after my dad passed). It was like the ultimate

abandonment by

my dad. It's been very hard to grieve. I believe it made my sister more

depressed and

she drank more (she had hep c) and she died 18 months later.

People from *regular* families just have no clue about this devastation of one's

mind

and soul caused by these mental illnesses.

Thanks for what you shared.

~patricia

Re: what to feel and think about father

WTH

I can relate. My emotions about my dad are very complex. I love him

and admire a lot about him, wanted to be more involved than I was with

him as an adult.

As a child, he traveled and was away for school and so I was alone with

nada a lot. I naturally clung to him as the sane influence in my life.

When he divorced and moved away to raise a new family, it made me

suddenly a red headed step child.

I characterize my relationship as always welcome, never invited. You

can show up any time and I m happy to see you, but it would never occur

to me to simply call and say hey lets grab dinner.

So, yes, complex, love, admiration, hurt, bitterness, abandonment ( not

the imagined kind nada s obsessed about, but for real. Still, have to

wonder how being really abandoned was impacted by living with a BP and

her crazy fear of it ), empty longing.

The biggest bone in my throat is, every one bailed on her craziness,

Dad, her sister, uncles, friends, and that I understand. But she was so

crazy you couldn' t stand to stay around her, and you left a

defenseless teenage boy to cope the best he could?

Ever wonder how that worked out, Dad? You left when I was 14. I m 54.

I m still in therapy. I m healing slowly, but I m healing. You were

supposed to protect me. That crazy bitch couldn't do it. Couldn't, not

wouldn't, I understand she was nutso. But that doesn't change the result

on us, does it.

Doug

> > >

> > > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> > understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

friends,

> > extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked

" but

> > your dad...? "

> > > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like

the

> > normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> > emotions, like that.

> > >

> > > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so

much

> > anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I

was

> > angry because I felt like he should have protected his children

before

> > caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to

yell

> > at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> > >

> > > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think

if he

> > had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a

custody

> > battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> > again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could

have

> > been worse.

> > >

> > > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create

some

> > kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> > children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> > >

> > > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > > Hugs,

> > > Walkingto Happiness

> > >

> >

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Oh, Doug

I am so sorry to read this. I can feel your pain through your written lines! I

can really understand how much pain a nada can inflict. I think it's great that

you are getting help in T and on here. And I'm glad you're here.

I wonder about the questions you raise. You mention that you have questions

about how your father could bail and leave you with nada. I have a lot of

similar questions. I am NC and have been for five years, although I started

calling my father with the number blocked out...

Some of our conversations have been really emotional; I would accuse him about

the past, and show anger for him. This hasn't worked well. I mean, I can

understand his perspective; here is his daughter who hasn't talked with him in 5

years, and now she is calling to get angry about things that happened decades

ago.

I am sort of calming down a little bit with my anger towards him lately. I

don't really know why, I guess it's a combination of reasons, but I am not so

much angry at him anymore. I can accept that BPD is a reality for our FOO, and

for some reason, I am the only one able to see this, and the only one interested

in getting help. I wonder if I could approach him with questions....

....and I somtimes wonder how I can ask about the past.

It would be so great, if you or any of us KOs could ask those kind of questions,

as in " What were you thinking leaving a 14 year old with a woman you couldn't

stand to be around? " but it comes off so accusatory.

I also have a friend who is 50 and divorcing a drug addict, and she confided in

me, that everytime she begins to pull herself out of her hole, her daughters

come along accusing her of ruining their lives, and she is just beside herself.

I told her if she could just acknowledge their pain, it would help a lot. But,

my friendship with her and her experience, make me see that there is more to the

story than just my pain. My father also has suffered a lifetime with nada.

I don't know, it is so complex.

I wish there were a way to gently ask the questions I want to ask to find out

why my father made the choices he did. I started, in the last convo we had,

asking him just one question, and it was almost too much for him. He didn't

really answer, and then got off the phone.

I guess I am someone who asks deep questions, because I had to, to find my own

existence. I guess he just can't handle those kind of deep questions. It must

be hard to have children!

Well, interested in your thoughts,

Thanks

Walking to Happiness

> > > >

> > > > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> > > understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

> friends,

> > > extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked

> " but

> > > your dad...? "

> > > > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like

> the

> > > normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> > > emotions, like that.

> > > >

> > > > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so

> much

> > > anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I

> was

> > > angry because I felt like he should have protected his children

> before

> > > caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to

> yell

> > > at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> > > >

> > > > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think

> if he

> > > had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a

> custody

> > > battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> > > again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could

> have

> > > been worse.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create

> some

> > > kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> > > children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> > > >

> > > > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > > > Hugs,

> > > > Walkingto Happiness

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

This is so sad. I can feel your sadness. It is really sad.

I guess I have a father who invites me, his biggest wish is to see the whole

happy family together. He is in denial about anything at all being wrong with

the FOO. The biggest problem is me, my anger, my questions, my bringing up the

past...

He invites me all right, I just don't go, because he still lives with nada and

as far as they are concerned, nothing ever happened.

For those of you who have fathers who divorced, at least there is an

aknowledgement or cooroboration of your reality that something is wrong with

your nada.

I don't know which way is better, to have grown up in a BPD household with both

parents present or to have a divorced nada all to yourself.

It's pretty awful either way, but I am leaning towards that it might be a little

better to have the other parent in the home to mitigate some of the nada damage?

I don't know. Tough question.

Thanks for reflecting on this with me, helps me a lot!

Walkingto Happiness

> > > >

> > > > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> > > understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

> friends,

> > > extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked

> " but

> > > your dad...? "

> > > > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like

> the

> > > normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> > > emotions, like that.

> > > >

> > > > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so

> much

> > > anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I

> was

> > > angry because I felt like he should have protected his children

> before

> > > caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to

> yell

> > > at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> > > >

> > > > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think

> if he

> > > had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a

> custody

> > > battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> > > again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could

> have

> > > been worse.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create

> some

> > > kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> > > children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> > > >

> > > > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > > > Hugs,

> > > > Walkingto Happiness

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I just feel so badly for you, ..I just cant imagine how cold your

step mother is :-(

Jackie

Doug,

Your email struck a strong chord with me. What you said about your father.

And have felt much the same ways, that I wanted to be more involved with him

but he was more like what you said: welcome but never invited. Except maybe

in the second to last year of his life, he actually invited his three kids

to dinner

at he and his second wife's house. That happened maybe twice.

I always made the effort to see him when I visited town. But I stayed with

my

mom. My mom was not as horrible as some of the mom's people talk about,

But she definitely had her ways to drastically mess up my mental life. And

I feel

resentment towards my father in how he left us with her. He would go work

long

hours and see his mistress no doubt. Work on weekends, watch football

endlessly.

Meanwhile here are these little girls and a boy who had to deal with this

waify mom.

With all these intense needs, and suicide threats, and clinginess. My

brother would

just vanish to his room.

To top it all off, my dad left all his assets to his wife; nothing at all to

us kids, not

a possession, not a memento, nothing. I sat with her while my dad was

dying; helped her,

talked with her. But she has made no outreach towards us kids; I wrote a

letter to her

asking for her to help me to understand why it was this way with my dad. No

answer.

(this was over a year after my dad passed). It was like the ultimate

abandonment by

my dad. It's been very hard to grieve. I believe it made my sister more

depressed and

she drank more (she had hep c) and she died 18 months later.

People from *regular* families just have no clue about this devastation of

one's mind

and soul caused by these mental illnesses.

Thanks for what you shared.

~patricia

Re: what to feel and think about father

WTH

I can relate. My emotions about my dad are very complex. I love him

and admire a lot about him, wanted to be more involved than I was with

him as an adult.

As a child, he traveled and was away for school and so I was alone with

nada a lot. I naturally clung to him as the sane influence in my life.

When he divorced and moved away to raise a new family, it made me

suddenly a red headed step child.

I characterize my relationship as always welcome, never invited. You

can show up any time and I m happy to see you, but it would never occur

to me to simply call and say hey lets grab dinner.

So, yes, complex, love, admiration, hurt, bitterness, abandonment ( not

the imagined kind nada s obsessed about, but for real. Still, have to

wonder how being really abandoned was impacted by living with a BP and

her crazy fear of it ), empty longing.

The biggest bone in my throat is, every one bailed on her craziness,

Dad, her sister, uncles, friends, and that I understand. But she was so

crazy you couldn' t stand to stay around her, and you left a

defenseless teenage boy to cope the best he could?

Ever wonder how that worked out, Dad? You left when I was 14. I m 54.

I m still in therapy. I m healing slowly, but I m healing. You were

supposed to protect me. That crazy bitch couldn't do it. Couldn't, not

wouldn't, I understand she was nutso. But that doesn't change the result

on us, does it.

Doug

> > >

> > > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> > understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

friends,

> > extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked

" but

> > your dad...? "

> > > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like

the

> > normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> > emotions, like that.

> > >

> > > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so

much

> > anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I

was

> > angry because I felt like he should have protected his children

before

> > caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to

yell

> > at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> > >

> > > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think

if he

> > had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a

custody

> > battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> > again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could

have

> > been worse.

> > >

> > > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create

some

> > kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> > children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> > >

> > > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > > Hugs,

> > > Walkingto Happiness

> > >

> >

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

@.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hey Jackie,

Thanks; it is a very confusing situation. My intuition is telling me that

there are secrets involved; she is very catholic and was having an affair while

she was married to her daughters' father. I sometimes wonder if her youngest

daughter (there are two kids) was my dad's daughter too.

I mean what other reason would she block us out this way ? (I mean unless she

had some secret or something? We had a very pleasant, amicable relationship at

the end, and I always sent cards and gifts over the years....)

One thing is, I feel bad because I struggle financially, while her daughters are

doing fine, with careers, husbands, money. And now they will have my dad's

things

and any assets as well.

But there is nothing I can do.

~patricia

Re: what to feel and think about father

WTH

I can relate. My emotions about my dad are very complex. I love him

and admire a lot about him, wanted to be more involved than I was with

him as an adult.

As a child, he traveled and was away for school and so I was alone with

nada a lot. I naturally clung to him as the sane influence in my life.

When he divorced and moved away to raise a new family, it made me

suddenly a red headed step child.

I characterize my relationship as always welcome, never invited. You

can show up any time and I m happy to see you, but it would never occur

to me to simply call and say hey lets grab dinner.

So, yes, complex, love, admiration, hurt, bitterness, abandonment ( not

the imagined kind nada s obsessed about, but for real. Still, have to

wonder how being really abandoned was impacted by living with a BP and

her crazy fear of it ), empty longing.

The biggest bone in my throat is, every one bailed on her craziness,

Dad, her sister, uncles, friends, and that I understand. But she was so

crazy you couldn' t stand to stay around her, and you left a

defenseless teenage boy to cope the best he could?

Ever wonder how that worked out, Dad? You left when I was 14. I m 54.

I m still in therapy. I m healing slowly, but I m healing. You were

supposed to protect me. That crazy bitch couldn't do it. Couldn't, not

wouldn't, I understand she was nutso. But that doesn't change the result

on us, does it.

Doug

> > >

> > > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> > understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

friends,

> > extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked

" but

> > your dad...? "

> > > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like

the

> > normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> > emotions, like that.

> > >

> > > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so

much

> > anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I

was

> > angry because I felt like he should have protected his children

before

> > caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to

yell

> > at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> > >

> > > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think

if he

> > had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a

custody

> > battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> > again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could

have

> > been worse.

> > >

> > > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create

some

> > kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> > children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> > >

> > > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > > Hugs,

> > > Walkingto Happiness

> > >

> >

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

@.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

WTH~ thanks for your thoughts and sympathy.

Who knows what is worse, right? I mean in a way I think having a parent leave

you to the

BPD parent is worse. But it could also be a situation where that non-BP parent

sits back and

watches (which my dad also did when he was with my mom; actually, this is funny,

he didn't divorce

her until we were in our 20's! But I guess it felt like he did; and after he

did divorce her, of course

we were left with the aftermath).

I guess there is no way to tell. Denial sucks too; especially when the child

(like yourself) sees so

clearly.

~patricia

Re: what to feel and think about father

,

This is so sad. I can feel your sadness. It is really sad.

I guess I have a father who invites me, his biggest wish is to see the whole

happy family together. He is in denial about anything at all being wrong with

the FOO. The biggest problem is me, my anger, my questions, my bringing up the

past...

He invites me all right, I just don't go, because he still lives with nada and

as far as they are concerned, nothing ever happened.

For those of you who have fathers who divorced, at least there is an

aknowledgement or cooroboration of your reality that something is wrong with

your nada.

I don't know which way is better, to have grown up in a BPD household with

both parents present or to have a divorced nada all to yourself.

It's pretty awful either way, but I am leaning towards that it might be a

little better to have the other parent in the home to mitigate some of the nada

damage?

I don't know. Tough question.

Thanks for reflecting on this with me, helps me a lot!

Walkingto Happiness

> > > >

> > > > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> > > understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

> friends,

> > > extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked

> " but

> > > your dad...? "

> > > > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like

> the

> > > normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> > > emotions, like that.

> > > >

> > > > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so

> much

> > > anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I

> was

> > > angry because I felt like he should have protected his children

> before

> > > caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to

> yell

> > > at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> > > >

> > > > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think

> if he

> > > had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a

> custody

> > > battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> > > again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could

> have

> > > been worse.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create

> some

> > > kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> > > children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> > > >

> > > > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > > > Hugs,

> > > > Walkingto Happiness

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I dont see how that would make any difference...I mean, the Catholic

religion says it's a sin to be an adulteress...but why punish YOU for what

they did ? I know you wanted some books he had...how would giving you the

books have any bearing on the daughter they had ?? besides, it's ancient

history now any how...she's a bad catholic in many ways !

Jackie

Hey Jackie,

Thanks; it is a very confusing situation. My intuition is telling me that

there are secrets involved; she is very catholic and was having an affair

while

she was married to her daughters' father. I sometimes wonder if her

youngest

daughter (there are two kids) was my dad's daughter too.

I mean what other reason would she block us out this way ? (I mean unless

she

had some secret or something? We had a very pleasant, amicable relationship

at

the end, and I always sent cards and gifts over the years....)

One thing is, I feel bad because I struggle financially, while her daughters

are

doing fine, with careers, husbands, money. And now they will have my dad's

things

and any assets as well.

But there is nothing I can do.

~patricia

[Guest guest]

I agree, Jackie, it shouldn't matter about the Catholic thing but I

wonder if she hid the affair from her kids (their family is super Catholic

with a monsignor in the family etc) and keep the possible secret of the

daughter (I am ONLY guessing). I mean she must feel threatened.

There must be some reason....that is what pains me, I will never know what it

is.

~patricia

Re: Re: what to feel and think about father

I dont see how that would make any difference...I mean, the Catholic

religion says it's a sin to be an adulteress...but why punish YOU for what

they did ? I know you wanted some books he had...how would giving you the

books have any bearing on the daughter they had ?? besides, it's ancient

history now any how...she's a bad catholic in many ways !

Jackie

Hey Jackie,

Thanks; it is a very confusing situation. My intuition is telling me that

there are secrets involved; she is very catholic and was having an affair

while

she was married to her daughters' father. I sometimes wonder if her

youngest

daughter (there are two kids) was my dad's daughter too.

I mean what other reason would she block us out this way ? (I mean unless

she

had some secret or something? We had a very pleasant, amicable relationship

at

the end, and I always sent cards and gifts over the years....)

One thing is, I feel bad because I struggle financially, while her daughters

are

doing fine, with careers, husbands, money. And now they will have my dad's

things

and any assets as well.

But there is nothing I can do.

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I cant imagine how giving you some books your father had ( that would mean

SO much to you) could threaten her in any way !! Even if she doesnt want a

relationship with you, giving you something from your father does not mean

you and she are now BFF !!! It just doesnt make any sense, and all I can

think is she's a very selfish person ...

Jackie

I agree, Jackie, it shouldn't matter about the Catholic thing but I

wonder if she hid the affair from her kids (their family is super Catholic

with a monsignor in the family etc) and keep the possible secret of the

daughter (I am ONLY guessing). I mean she must feel threatened.

There must be some reason....that is what pains me, I will never know what

it

is.

~patricia

[Guest guest]

I know....no one I've told this to understands it. I wrote her a letter

as nice as possible asking her that if she didn't want to discuss why my

dad didn't leave us anything, could we have a few of his things and I listed

them, books, pictures (she has a picture of me and my sister from a campsite

my dad took us to when we were little), my brother's artwork.

The thing that gets me too, is that she has her family SURROUNDING her,

supporting her; and I have no one around me at all anymore. And you know how it

goes with the BPD mom. It's not about me, it's about her. And if it's about

me, I

feel uncomfortable with her attention.

~patricia

Re: Re: what to feel and think about father

I cant imagine how giving you some books your father had ( that would mean

SO much to you) could threaten her in any way !! Even if she doesnt want a

relationship with you, giving you something from your father does not mean

you and she are now BFF !!! It just doesnt make any sense, and all I can

think is she's a very selfish person ...

Jackie

I agree, Jackie, it shouldn't matter about the Catholic thing but I

wonder if she hid the affair from her kids (their family is super Catholic

with a monsignor in the family etc) and keep the possible secret of the

daughter (I am ONLY guessing). I mean she must feel threatened.

There must be some reason....that is what pains me, I will never know what

it

is.

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Have you ever considered that he saw what was going on, tried to avoid adding

fuel to the fire, and maybe wanted to be around and not involved in a custody

battle?

Just a consideration... I've been seeing things from their perspective more

these days, or trying to understand the parents' perspective more these days...

Walking to Happiness

> > > > >

> > > > > I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have

> > > > understood that I want to break off contact with nada, family

> > friends,

> > > > extended relatives, people like that. However, I often get asked

> > " but

> > > > your dad...? "

> > > > > I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like

> > the

> > > > normal not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with

> > > > emotions, like that.

> > > > >

> > > > > I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so

> > much

> > > > anger for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I

> > was

> > > > angry because I felt like he should have protected his children

> > before

> > > > caring for his nutty wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to

> > yell

> > > > at him to divorce his wife (my nada).

> > > > >

> > > > > But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think

> > if he

> > > > had divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a

> > custody

> > > > battle with a nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me

> > > > again. Nada would have split him completely terrible. It could

> > have

> > > > been worse.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create

> > some

> > > > kind of buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his

> > > > children to grow up with both parents in the home, older values...

> > > > >

> > > > > Any thoughts/feelings?

> > > > > Hugs,

> > > > > Walkingto Happiness

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

My father is a selfish asshole that left me at the mercy of my NADA. She had

tried to murder him several times, tried to frame him for an attempted

murder/assult on her life, and he walked out when I was 4.

I asked him one day why he left me with her, and he said that he didn't think

he'd get custody (BULLSHIT! He was a COP, he could have proved what was going

on).

He went from woman to woman who would decide if I got to see him on weekends or

not. I spent many weekends waiting for him on the steps of our appartment

complex (with my bag packed), only to discover several hours later that he had

called to cancel, or just wouldn't show up. Sometimes he did show up, but just

as often, he didn't.

His current wife, who also has BPD has controlled his life for as long as she's

been with him. In fact, when my mother made an attempt on my life and he let me

come live with him, but because he didn't want to disrupt his brand new

relationship (he had only known her for about 8 months) he ended up kicking me

out. Telling me that " one day I'd have to decide between my kid and my spouse " .

I was 12 or 13. Nice guy eh?

Since then, I've TRIED to have a relationship with him. I've forgiven him SOOO

many times. Recently his wife has decided I'm " bad " , so basically he's shutting

us out now.

My feelings? Fuck him. He's the one loosing out. As far as his wife is

concerned, only her children and grandchildren matter. I've been pretty much

told over and over again that I don't matter.

I'm done with him.

I sincerely hope that he outlives her. She has already cut him off from the rest

of his family. For the pain and suffering that he's caused his sisters, and me,

he deserves to be alone to think about all the pain he's caused people.

I think all of you that are empathetic towards your dads are being way too

forgiving. These are ADULTS who knew better. They ALLOWED abuse to go on towards

their children whom they were supposed to protect. Period. There is absolutely

NO excuse. These are weak minded men who need to grow up and be MEN.

>

> I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have understood

that I want to break off contact with nada, family friends, extended relatives,

people like that. However, I often get asked " but your dad...? "

> I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like the normal

not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with emotions, like that.

>

> I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so much anger

for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I was angry because

I felt like he should have protected his children before caring for his nutty

wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to yell at him to divorce his wife (my

nada).

>

> But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think if he had

divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a custody battle with a

nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me again. Nada would have

split him completely terrible. It could have been worse.

>

> Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create some kind of

buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his children to grow up

with both parents in the home, older values...

>

> Any thoughts/feelings?

> Hugs,

> Walkingto Happiness

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, I had a dad who stuck around with my nada too. He actually passed in March,

and I have felt as at-peace with things regarding him as I can, despite a lot of

anger in recent years over what I perceived as his apathy. When I was growing

up, when my nada and I used to have our terrible screaming matches (because I

refused to give in to much of her idiocy), he would refuse to " officiate " . He

would call us " the bicker sisters " and walk away. It used to drive me nuts that

1) he made a joke out of my fighting for my own survival, and 2) he didn't take

my side. Now, I see that there were times where he took my side, but he

probably didn't do it in front of me. And even if he did, she never heard him -

she can listen to words out of your mouth and ascribe a totally different

meaning to them. I felt firmly as I grew into my own adult life that if he had

called her on her bs, then maybe I wouldn't have had to suffer as I did. Now,

I'm not sure it would have made a difference - it might have made things worse

as there would have been more warfare going on in our house. I do know this -

that after I grew up and got my own life, job, house, family and he was left

with her, that she made him suffer terribly. All the negativity,

hypercriticism, nagging, berating, etc. that she had directed towards me was

now largely reallocated to him - simply because he was present. I feel very

strongly that the stress of dealing with her contributed to his terminal illness

and death. And I think that, whatever he did or didn't do, he didn't deserve

that kind of anguish - no one does. I still don't know why he stayed with her -

except to maybe think that he was just a completely decent and committed person

who did the best he could with a bad set of circumstances.

Another thing that really helped me is that I gave him SWOE, I told him about

BPD and he took the time to think about it and came to the conclusion that he

agreed she had BPD too. He even told their joint therapist (privately) that he

thought she had this disease. He did this work when he was well-advanced into

his disease, when maybe turning away from things would have been easier and when

his cognitive abilities and power to concentrate were already greatly lessened.

He had a bear of a time getting past the impression that I was telling him nada

had schizophrenia (he had a lung disease and the resulting oxygen deprivation

made everything - physical and mental- more difficult for him), but when he

finally read the book, he understood and we were able to see eye to eye on this

and understand it as an illness.

So, although I have perceived a lot of (rightly held) resentment against fadas

on this board, for me, I think the basic take-away was that, like me in some

ways, my dad was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Whether I go NC with

my mom or not, much of the pain she has caused me will never be righted and I

will always feel the wound of never having a proper mother. Whether he divorced

her or not, he was still part of the family he had created and unable to change

her behavior. He certainly paid his dues in suffering and he had the strength

and sense of responsibility in his last months to put a name to her behavior and

acknowledge that the emotional pain we had both suffered from her behavior was a

very real thing. So, I will always be grateful to him for that.

>

> I have a nada and I've been NC for years now. Many people have understood

that I want to break off contact with nada, family friends, extended relatives,

people like that. However, I often get asked " but your dad...? "

> I was close to him when I grew up, he was an ok parent, more like the normal

not so perfect but human parent who has a hard time with emotions, like that.

>

> I went through a period during the last few years, where I had so much anger

for my father, and this was often reinforced on this board. I was angry because

I felt like he should have protected his children before caring for his nutty

wife. When I was a teenager, too, I used to yell at him to divorce his wife (my

nada).

>

> But, now I am starting to have a different perspective. I think if he had

divorced her, it might have been worse. Can you imagine a custody battle with a

nada? Nada probably would have never let him see me again. Nada would have

split him completely terrible. It could have been worse.

>

> Maybe it was better that he was there, within the FOO, to create some kind of

buffer zone to the nada world of Oz. maybe he wanted his children to grow up

with both parents in the home, older values...

>

> Any thoughts/feelings?

> Hugs,

> Walkingto Happiness

>