Re: article on BP and brain and facial expression

[Guest guest]

Is that article in an earlier post?  I'm just curius because somteism I wonder

if some of them are truly a mental disease and some is truly poorly learned

behaviours that nobody can get through to them that those behaviours are

inappropriate.  I think the sooners those behaviours are taught to be

inappropriate the better, for example you catch a kid with borderline symptoms

as they start and teach them appropporiate behaviours, their outcome is oging to

be a lto different than my nada who got away with her behaviours for over 30

years before anyone ever tried to correct her and say no more of your abusive

idiotness.

Subject: article on BP and brain and facial expression

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 11:51 AM

 

Randi posted that article about the disease process in BP s and it was

marvelous. It really provided a great insight into how thier brains work.

It helps you understand that perhaps the stubborness and manipulations and crazy

making are not things they can help. There is, perhaps, greater hope with each

new understanding that they can be treated successfully. We can understand, and

maybe separate our anger at their actions and emotions from anger at the person

inside.

I m not saying we excuse what they do. Nor am I saying for an instant that we

should stop doing what we need to do in order to be safe and sane, and to help

our own healing along.

I just note that perhaps our nagging question, " Are they evil to do what the

do? " is a bit better answer, maybe. They are truly, truly mentally ill. Some

may be evil and some may be good under it all.

But we can understand that perhaps, under all this madness, is a good and caring

person , who is our mother, who just never made it out.

Maybe that makes the realities a bit easier for us. And I never give up hope.

My mom died still deeply symptomatic. But I hold out hope. If the caring

community can help BP s to cope, and become healthier, many kids dealing right

now with what we endured may have a chance to avoid our pain.

So, hope.

Doug

[Guest guest]

I don't think there's any question that some of their behaviors

are learned but I think the problem is far greater than them not

understanding that their behavior is inapparopriate. I don't

think that simply teaching them that there are better behaviors

that are more appropriate will fix the real problem but if it is

certainly a start, where it is possible. Whether it is even

possible or not in most cases is questionable. BPD is not caused

by young people being allowed to get away with bad behavior,

although it is probably allowed to get worse when the bad

behavior is tolerated. I think that attempting to teach them

better behavior often just results in them leaving home. I know

my nada got married at 17 to escape from her mother's attempts

to control her behavior. I think they leave relationships and

marriages if their partner refuses to put up with their behavior

too. That's why they so commonly end up with dish-rag spouses

who put up with their behavior.

I think that BPD is an issue with the wiring in the brain

causing them to think in a way that is very foreign to the rest

of us. Because they don't think the same, their actions are

different. Their bad behavior is an outgrowth of their way of

thinking. If you feel threatened by other people going about

their business and acting normally, then you're going to react

in ways to minimize the threats. They feel threatened, Their

emotions are out of control. They react in ways that let them

feel less threatened or more in control or that provide an

outlet for their negative emotions or whatever else makes them

feel better. If you start young enough, you can probabaly teach

them better ways to react to some extent, but I think that

what's really needed is a way to rewire their thinking so that

they don't have the out of control feelings that make them want

to act that way to start with. Some of what's being done now may

help with that, especially if started young enough. As more

research is done and a better understanding about what is

different in their brains is developed, better therapies will

hopefully be developed too. Whatever comes along, I imagine that

the younger the patients are when it is started, the better

chance of success it will have. Teaching new ways of thinking

works better when people are young.

At 09:51 AM 07/11/2010 proflaf1 wrote:

>Is that article in an earlier post? I'm just curius because

>somteism I wonder if some of them are truly a mental disease

>and some is truly poorly learned behaviours that nobody can get

>through to them that those behaviours are inappropriate. I

>think the sooners those behaviours are taught to be

>inappropriate the better, for example you catch a kid with

>borderline symptoms as they start and teach them appropporiate

>behaviours, their outcome is oging to be a lto different than

>my nada who got away with her behaviours for over 30 years

>before anyone ever tried to correct her and say no more of your

>abusive idiotness.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Amen!

>

> Randi posted that article about the disease process in BP s and it was

marvelous. It really provided a great insight into how thier brains work.

>

> It helps you understand that perhaps the stubborness and manipulations and

crazy making are not things they can help. There is, perhaps, greater hope with

each new understanding that they can be treated successfully. We can

understand, and maybe separate our anger at their actions and emotions from

anger at the person inside.

>

> I m not saying we excuse what they do. Nor am I saying for an instant that we

should stop doing what we need to do in order to be safe and sane, and to help

our own healing along.

>

> I just note that perhaps our nagging question, " Are they evil to do what the

do? " is a bit better answer, maybe. They are truly, truly mentally ill. Some

may be evil and some may be good under it all.

>

> But we can understand that perhaps, under all this madness, is a good and

caring person , who is our mother, who just never made it out.

>

> Maybe that makes the realities a bit easier for us. And I never give up hope.

My mom died still deeply symptomatic. But I hold out hope. If the caring

community can help BP s to cope, and become healthier, many kids dealing right

now with what we endured may have a chance to avoid our pain.

>

> So, hope.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

I've wondered about this too...everyone, grand parents, aunts, uncles and my

father allowed nada to act anyway she wanted. Her whole life she was never

held accountable for her actions/words, and every one of them always was

there to save her...I always wondered if everyone put their foot down and

refused to accept her bad behavior, she'd have to change!!

Jackie

Is that article in an earlier post? I'm just curius because somteism I

wonder if some of them are truly a mental disease and some is truly poorly

learned behaviours that nobody can get through to them that those behaviours

are inappropriate. I think the sooners those behaviours are taught to be

inappropriate the better, for example you catch a kid with borderline

symptoms as they start and teach them appropporiate behaviours, their

outcome is oging to be a lto different than my nada who got away with her

behaviours for over 30 years before anyone ever tried to correct her and say

no more of your abusive idiotness.

[Guest guest]

I agree totally, if my dad gave her the choice to either change her behavior

found out about what she did to his family, correct that  and told her you will

stop acting like an asshole or we will all leave you alone she would either

change or be in the position she is in now where she is completely alone except

her friends because she alienated so many other people.

Subject: Re: article on BP and brain and facial expression

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Sunday, July 11, 2010, 12:52 PM

 

I've wondered about this too...everyone, grand parents, aunts, uncles and

my

father allowed nada to act anyway she wanted. Her whole life she was never

held accountable for her actions/words, and every one of them always was

there to save her...I always wondered if everyone put their foot down and

refused to accept her bad behavior, she'd have to change!!

Jackie

Is that article in an earlier post? I'm just curius because somteism I

wonder if some of them are truly a mental disease and some is truly poorly

learned behaviours that nobody can get through to them that those behaviours

are inappropriate. I think the sooners those behaviours are taught to be

inappropriate the better, for example you catch a kid with borderline

symptoms as they start and teach them appropporiate behaviours, their

outcome is oging to be a lto different than my nada who got away with her

behaviours for over 30 years before anyone ever tried to correct her and say

no more of your abusive idiotness.

[Guest guest]

Yes it is, sorry.

Message #114387 of 114626 Sex and BPD, The Science of BPD posted by

Randi. You can search for it by message number and find it.

I think, as with many things, there is no clean, neat answer. I believe

there must be some degree of disease or disorder involved. Perhaps it

is true, however, that the learned behaviors may make the difference in

a high and low functioning BP?

BPD is, perhaps, analogous to autism. Autistic people have difficulty

in picking up social clues, and in communicating. BP s, it seems, pick

up some of those clues with a hieghtened sensitivity that makes them for

all practical purposes blind to them, and others, not at all.

The analogy does translate to this: with autistic children, the earlier

and the more determined the training and intervention, the better life

outcome they will have. With borderlnes , I m sure the same is true.

Unfortunately for KO s, by the time we encounter them, they are adults

and have several decades of bad re inforcement.

Doug

>

> From: doug883@... doug883@...

> Subject: article on BP and brain and facial

expression

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 11:51 AM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Â

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Randi posted that article about the disease process in BP s and

it was marvelous. It really provided a great insight into how thier

brains work.

>

>

>

> It helps you understand that perhaps the stubborness and manipulations

and crazy making are not things they can help. There is, perhaps,

greater hope with each new understanding that they can be treated

successfully. We can understand, and maybe separate our anger at their

actions and emotions from anger at the person inside.

>

>

>

> I m not saying we excuse what they do. Nor am I saying for an instant

that we should stop doing what we need to do in order to be safe and

sane, and to help our own healing along.

>

>

>

> I just note that perhaps our nagging question, " Are they evil to do

what the do? " is a bit better answer, maybe. They are truly, truly

mentally ill. Some may be evil and some may be good under it all.

>

>

>

> But we can understand that perhaps, under all this madness, is a good

and caring person , who is our mother, who just never made it out.

>

>

>

> Maybe that makes the realities a bit easier for us. And I never give

up hope. My mom died still deeply symptomatic. But I hold out hope.

If the caring community can help BP s to cope, and become healthier,

many kids dealing right now with what we endured may have a chance to

avoid our pain.

>

>

>

> So, hope.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good points here.

>Is that article in an earlier post? I'm just curius because

>somteism I wonder if some of them are truly a mental disease

>and some is truly poorly learned behaviours that nobody can get

>through to them that those behaviours are inappropriate. I

>think the sooners those behaviours are taught to be

>inappropriate the better, for example you catch a kid with

>borderline symptoms as they start and teach them appropporiate

>behaviours, their outcome is oging to be a lto different than

>my nada who got away with her behaviours for over 30 years

>before anyone ever tried to correct her and say no more of your

>abusive idiotness.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

my nada is capable of controling herself in public....she rarely ever has

tantrums or rages where anyone other then her family can see her...she

never treats outsiders badly, she only treats her family horrible, everyone

else she is sickening sweet to

Jackie

I don't think there's any question that some of their behaviors

are learned but I think the problem is far greater than them not

understanding that their behavior is inapparopriate. I don't

think that simply teaching them that there are better behaviors

that are more appropriate will fix the real problem but if it is

certainly a start, where it is possible. Whether it is even

possible or not in most cases is questionable. BPD is not caused

by young people being allowed to get away with bad behavior,

although it is probably allowed to get worse when the bad

behavior is tolerated. I think that attempting to teach them

better behavior often just results in them leaving home.

[Guest guest]

I have pondered this so much because my mother could be SO normal around other

people. I mean, a schizophrenic can't control their behavior in certain

instances, so how can a BPD if it is a brain disorder? That's a rhetorical

question, but I ask myself all the time.

I think BPD is so complicated and on such varying scales. In the Surviving the

Borderline Parent book, one thing the author says is that when she gets up to

talk about BPD, she has to take 30 minutes just to explain what it is.

I think about my mothers tantrums and manipulation and it really does seem like

she never emotionally matured beyond 8 or 10 years old. Like she just stopped

progressing emotionally and psychologically.

I liken people with BPD to children...emotionally anyway....because they never

learned the proper skills to deal with disappointment, with someone disagreeing

with them.

My 8 year old believes in santa clause and my 12 year old told him santa wasn't

real (and yeah, I later talked to him and asked him not to tell him that). But

my 8 year old doesn't believe him anyway and stood going, " you are lying! that's

not true "

This is very much how I see BPD's. Like little kids. Obviously, little kids are

still developing and learning, and you'd expect adults to know how to act and

react, but I honestly do believe there is a brain abnormality going on despite

the fact that at times they seem to be able to control it.

That's how I see it anyway --- I'm obviously no therapist!

Re: article on BP and brain and facial expression

my nada is capable of controling herself in public....she rarely ever has

tantrums or rages where anyone other then her family can see her...she

never treats outsiders badly, she only treats her family horrible, everyone

else she is sickening sweet to

Jackie

I don't think there's any question that some of their behaviors

are learned but I think the problem is far greater than them not

understanding that their behavior is inapparopriate. I don't

think that simply teaching them that there are better behaviors

that are more appropriate will fix the real problem but if it is

certainly a start, where it is possible. Whether it is even

possible or not in most cases is questionable. BPD is not caused

by young people being allowed to get away with bad behavior,

although it is probably allowed to get worse when the bad

behavior is tolerated. I think that attempting to teach them

better behavior often just results in them leaving home.

[Guest guest]

Long before I knew what BPD was I was describing my nada as

having the emotional maturity of a three year-old with a

teenager's raging hormones. The results of that combination have

been pretty disasterous in multiple ways.

I don't think BPD is about not being able to control actions. I

think it is about the ability to decide how to act being broken.

The more emotional connection they have to the situation, the

more problems they have with deciding how to act.

At 09:07 AM 07/15/2010 Hummingbird1298@... wrote:

>I have pondered this so much because my mother could be SO

>normal around other people. I mean, a schizophrenic can't

>control their behavior in certain instances, so how can a BPD

>if it is a brain disorder? That's a rhetorical question, but I

>ask myself all the time.

>

>I think BPD is so complicated and on such varying scales. In

>the Surviving the Borderline Parent book, one thing the author

>says is that when she gets up to talk about BPD, she has to

>take 30 minutes just to explain what it is.

>

>I think about my mothers tantrums and manipulation and it

>really does seem like she never emotionally matured beyond 8 or

>10 years old. Like she just stopped progressing emotionally and

>psychologically.

>

>I liken people with BPD to children...emotionally

>anyway....because they never learned the proper skills to deal

>with disappointment, with someone disagreeing with them.

>

>My 8 year old believes in santa clause and my 12 year old told

>him santa wasn't real (and yeah, I later talked to him and

>asked him not to tell him that). But my 8 year old doesn't

>believe him anyway and stood going, " you are lying! that's not

>true "

>

>This is very much how I see BPD's. Like little

>kids. Obviously, little kids are still developing and

>learning, and you'd expect adults to know how to act and react,

>but I honestly do believe there is a brain abnormality going on

>despite the fact that at times they seem to be able to control

>it.

>

>That's how I see it anyway --- I'm obviously no therapist!

>

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Perhaps. I'm just not so sure they can control how they react because they do

have a brain abnormality. I could be wrong about this, but from what I

understand about BPD, and they're learning more and more about it, their brains

have actually developed differently either based on genetics of environmental

factors.

Maybe it's safer for me to believe my mother couldn't help herself because if I

think she could, then that means she chose to be a crappy mother to me...and

that sucks really bad.

I told my therapist last night that I believe people with BPD need intervention,

much like addicts...especially when children are involved. Someone needs to step

in and first and foremost, protect the children and force the BPD person to get

help. If they refuse help, the children still need protecting and that means

they don't get access to the children without supervision.

Re: article on BP and brain and facial expression

Long before I knew what BPD was I was describing my nada as

having the emotional maturity of a three year-old with a

teenager's raging hormones. The results of that combination have

been pretty disasterous in multiple ways.

I don't think BPD is about not being able to control actions. I

think it is about the ability to decide how to act being broken.

The more emotional connection they have to the situation, the

more problems they have with deciding how to act.

At 09:07 AM 07/15/2010 Hummingbird1298@... wrote:

>I have pondered this so much because my mother could be SO

>normal around other people. I mean, a schizophrenic can't

>control their behavior in certain instances, so how can a BPD

>if it is a brain disorder? That's a rhetorical question, but I

>ask myself all the time.

>

>I think BPD is so complicated and on such varying scales. In

>the Surviving the Borderline Parent book, one thing the author

>says is that when she gets up to talk about BPD, she has to

>take 30 minutes just to explain what it is.

>

>I think about my mothers tantrums and manipulation and it

>really does seem like she never emotionally matured beyond 8 or

>10 years old. Like she just stopped progressing emotionally and

>psychologically.

>

>I liken people with BPD to children...emotionally

>anyway....because they never learned the proper skills to deal

>with disappointment, with someone disagreeing with them.

>

>My 8 year old believes in santa clause and my 12 year old told

>him santa wasn't real (and yeah, I later talked to him and

>asked him not to tell him that). But my 8 year old doesn't

>believe him anyway and stood going, " you are lying! that's not

>true "

>

>This is very much how I see BPD's. Like little

>kids. Obviously, little kids are still developing and

>learning, and you'd expect adults to know how to act and react,

>but I honestly do believe there is a brain abnormality going on

>despite the fact that at times they seem to be able to control

>it.

>

>That's how I see it anyway --- I'm obviously no therapist!

>

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

you many not be a therapist, but you have a great handle on this!!

Jackie

I have pondered this so much because my mother could be SO normal around

other people. I mean, a schizophrenic can't control their behavior in

certain instances, so how can a BPD if it is a brain disorder? That's a

rhetorical question, but I ask myself all the time.

I think BPD is so complicated and on such varying scales. In the Surviving

the Borderline Parent book, one thing the author says is that when she gets

up to talk about BPD, she has to take 30 minutes just to explain what it is.

I think about my mothers tantrums and manipulation and it really does seem

like she never emotionally matured beyond 8 or 10 years old. Like she just

stopped progressing emotionally and psychologically.

I liken people with BPD to children...emotionally anyway....because they

never learned the proper skills to deal with disappointment, with someone

disagreeing with them.

My 8 year old believes in santa clause and my 12 year old told him santa

wasn't real (and yeah, I later talked to him and asked him not to tell him

that). But my 8 year old doesn't believe him anyway and stood going, " you

are lying! that's not true "

This is very much how I see BPD's. Like little kids. Obviously, little kids

are still developing and learning, and you'd expect adults to know how to

act and react, but I honestly do believe there is a brain abnormality going

on despite the fact that at times they seem to be able to control it.

That's how I see it anyway --- I'm obviously no therapist!

[Guest guest]

I mostly agree. I don't think they choose to be crappy mothers

as such. I don't think they even realize they're being crappy

mothers. I think their problems are at a much lower level than

that. A lot of them really seem to believe that they're good

parents. BPD makes them think that the things they choose to do

to us are right and justifiable. They choose to do terrible and

abusive things to us, but they do so because they believe they

should act that way, not because they want to be terrible

mothers. We know they're capable of not treating people badly

because they manage to treat strangers perfectly well, but as

far as I can see, they're not capable of being rational in how

they decide how to treat people. Once emotion enters the

decision, their decision-making ability goes haywire.

At 09:50 AM 07/15/2010 Hummingbird1298@... wrote:

>Perhaps. I'm just not so sure they can control how they react

>because they do have a brain abnormality. I could be wrong

>about this, but from what I understand about BPD, and they're

>learning more and more about it, their brains have actually

>developed differently either based on genetics of environmental

>factors.

>

>Maybe it's safer for me to believe my mother couldn't help

>herself because if I think she could, then that means she chose

>to be a crappy mother to me...and that sucks really bad.

>

>I told my therapist last night that I believe people with BPD

>need intervention, much like addicts...especially when children

>are involved. Someone needs to step in and first and foremost,

>protect the children and force the BPD person to get help. If

>they refuse help, the children still need protecting and that

>means they don't get access to the children without

>supervision.

>

>

> Re: article on BP and brain and

>facial expression

>

>

>Long before I knew what BPD was I was describing my nada as

>having the emotional maturity of a three year-old with a

>teenager's raging hormones. The results of that combination

>have

>been pretty disasterous in multiple ways.

>

>I don't think BPD is about not being able to control actions. I

>

>think it is about the ability to decide how to act being

>broken.

>The more emotional connection they have to the situation, the

>more problems they have with deciding how to act.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

except when you SEE your nada treating someone elses child the way she

should have treated you but never did, what else is there to think ?? My

nada is a great mother to neighborhood kids...but she doesn't have to

spend much time with them like she did with her own kids...and none of us

were " bad " kids..all but 2 were very easy kids..but she's sweet, generous to

other peoples kids, and not to her own...my nada chose to treat us like

crap, she chose to be a bully, and hurtful/hateful towards her own

children...she chose to deny them things just for the fun of it !

Jackie

Maybe it's safer for me to believe my mother couldn't help herself because

if I think she could, then that means she chose to be a crappy mother to

me...and that sucks really bad.

I told my therapist last night that I believe people with BPD need

intervention, much like addicts...especially when children are involved.

Someone needs to step in and first and foremost, protect the children and

force the BPD person to get help. If they refuse help, the children still

need protecting and that means they don't get access to the children without

supervision.

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree with that. I wonder if deep down, though, they know they're bad

mothers because shortly before my mother died (and she knew she was nearing the

end), she asked me and my sister if we thought she had been a good mother. I

believe, finally, things began to set in and she had some regrets. It makes me

sad and relieved. If only she had had those regrets many years before.

Re: article on BP and brain and

>facial expression

>

>

>Long before I knew what BPD was I was describing my nada as

>having the emotional maturity of a three year-old with a

>teenager's raging hormones. The results of that combination

>have

>been pretty disasterous in multiple ways.

>

>I don't think BPD is about not being able to control actions. I

>

>think it is about the ability to decide how to act being

>broken.

>The more emotional connection they have to the situation, the

>more problems they have with deciding how to act.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

My mother did this when I was older. She would call people I had gone to high

school with or had at one time been friends and befriend them and be there for

them. Because when she died, people approached me to tell me my mother was their

'best friend.' People my age. I wanted to scream, " WELL YOU WERENT THE ONE SHE

ABUSED DUMBASS! "

Re: article on BP and brain and facial expression

except when you SEE your nada treating someone elses child the way she

should have treated you but never did, what else is there to think ?? My

nada is a great mother to neighborhood kids...but she doesn't have to

spend much time with them like she did with her own kids...and none of us

were " bad " kids..all but 2 were very easy kids..but she's sweet, generous to

other peoples kids, and not to her own...my nada chose to treat us like

crap, she chose to be a bully, and hurtful/hateful towards her own

children...she chose to deny them things just for the fun of it !

Jackie

Maybe it's safer for me to believe my mother couldn't help herself because

if I think she could, then that means she chose to be a crappy mother to

me...and that sucks really bad.

I told my therapist last night that I believe people with BPD need

intervention, much like addicts...especially when children are involved.

Someone needs to step in and first and foremost, protect the children and

force the BPD person to get help. If they refuse help, the children still

need protecting and that means they don't get access to the children without

supervision.

[Guest guest]

Last year my nada started getting together with one of my

sister's former friends from high school. This was several years

after my sister had dropped the friendship while in college

because the former friend was just too needy and clingy and

tended to make up stories. What possible good reason could there

be for my nada to befriend a young lady forty years younger than

her with whom she has nothing in common?

At 10:27 AM 07/15/2010 Hummingbird1298@... wrote:

>My mother did this when I was older. She would call people I

>had gone to high school with or had at one time been friends

>and befriend them and be there for them. Because when she died,

>people approached me to tell me my mother was their 'best

>friend.' People my age. I wanted to scream, " WELL YOU WERENT

>THE ONE SHE ABUSED DUMBASS! "

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

See this is what I don't understand. My nada is the same way. Capable of

controlling the behavior in public. She is an adult child of an alcoholic so I

don't know if that is what teaches them. But to me, when they are capable of

controlling it, it makes them have narcissistic personality disorder instead of

borderline personality disorder.

 

Can anyone tell me the difference? Thanks in advance.

Subject: Re: article on BP and brain and facial expression

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 1:42 PM

 

my nada is capable of controling herself in public....she rarely ever has

tantrums or rages where anyone other then her family can see her...she

never treats outsiders badly, she only treats her family horrible, everyone

else she is sickening sweet to

Jackie

I don't think there's any question that some of their behaviors

are learned but I think the problem is far greater than them not

understanding that their behavior is inapparopriate. I don't

think that simply teaching them that there are better behaviors

that are more appropriate will fix the real problem but if it is

certainly a start, where it is possible. Whether it is even

possible or not in most cases is questionable. BPD is not caused

by young people being allowed to get away with bad behavior,

although it is probably allowed to get worse when the bad

behavior is tolerated. I think that attempting to teach them

better behavior often just results in them leaving home.

[Guest guest]

I don't know the entire difference, but I do know that a lot, A LOT of people

with BPD also have NPD. My therapist and I discussed this last night (I

apparently had a good 2-hour session last night, lol). I do think that BPD's

know what they're doing is wrong. I just don't know that they can help

themselves when they cross over the 'borderline' and become more psychotic than

not.

Re: article on BP and brain and facial expression

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 1:42 PM

my nada is capable of controling herself in public....she rarely ever has

tantrums or rages where anyone other then her family can see her...she

never treats outsiders badly, she only treats her family horrible, everyone

else she is sickening sweet to

Jackie

I don't think there's any question that some of their behaviors

are learned but I think the problem is far greater than them not

understanding that their behavior is inapparopriate. I don't

think that simply teaching them that there are better behaviors

that are more appropriate will fix the real problem but if it is

certainly a start, where it is possible. Whether it is even

possible or not in most cases is questionable. BPD is not caused

by young people being allowed to get away with bad behavior,

although it is probably allowed to get worse when the bad

behavior is tolerated. I think that attempting to teach them

better behavior often just results in them leaving home.

[Guest guest]

I dont get angry at the people who come to me and tell me my mother is a

wonderful, kind loving person...I just pity them because I know she's

fooled them. it does make me sad that nada IS so nice and kind towards

outsiders and has never shown any kindness/sweetnes toward her own

family...

Jackie

My mother did this when I was older. She would call people I had gone to

high school with or had at one time been friends and befriend them and be

there for them. Because when she died, people approached me to tell me my

mother was their 'best friend.' People my age. I wanted to scream, " WELL YOU

WERENT THE ONE SHE ABUSED DUMBASS! "

[Guest guest]

my nada is both...as well as being a bully in circumstances that doest fit

into any of the personality disorders...my therapist said my nada actually

enjoys being a bully !!

Jackie

I don't know the entire difference, but I do know that a lot, A LOT of

people with BPD also have NPD. My therapist and I discussed this last night

(I apparently had a good 2-hour session last night, lol). I do think that

BPD's know what they're doing is wrong. I just don't know that they can help

themselves when they cross over the 'borderline' and become more psychotic

than not.

[Guest guest]

I know...sickeningly sweet acting to everyone else. But, difficult at home.

I really do see my mother as a child. And I really do think that she has a

sincere, sweet side. Intermixed with manipulations, and the like.

But, she also has a sweet phoney side that she uses to just get her way and

impress people.

However, I have noticed that her persona changes by who she spent the day with.

And I think part of that is her lack of a " constant feeling of self. " If you

don't know who your self is, how can you act the part? For, example after

spending a day with my curt, narcissistic sister my mother came home feeling

very full of herself and answering in a curt tone of voice. And I've noticed

that she sometimes takes on ways, and expressions that I say and etc... after

being with me. She will suddenly be trying to get my attention through paying

attention to things I like...such as my cat and trying to tell me it is

starving...and to come here and feed it.

She also becomes very dependent, clingy and needy after spending several hours

with me and won't leave me alone. Like she is afraid or something.

>

> I dont get angry at the people who come to me and tell me my mother is a

> wonderful, kind loving person...I just pity them because I know she's

> fooled them. it does make me sad that nada IS so nice and kind towards

> outsiders and has never shown any kindness/sweetnes toward her own

> family...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> My mother did this when I was older. She would call people I had gone to

> high school with or had at one time been friends and befriend them and be

> there for them. Because when she died, people approached me to tell me my

> mother was their 'best friend.' People my age. I wanted to scream, " WELL YOU

> WERENT THE ONE SHE ABUSED DUMBASS! "

>

[Guest guest]

my nada is and never has been never clingy at least not with me...thank

goodness !!

Jackie

I know...sickeningly sweet acting to everyone else. But, difficult at home.

I really do see my mother as a child. And I really do think that she has a

sincere, sweet side. Intermixed with manipulations, and the like.

But, she also has a sweet phoney side that she uses to just get her way and

impress people.

However, I have noticed that her persona changes by who she spent the day

with. And I think part of that is her lack of a " constant feeling of self. "

If you don't know who your self is, how can you act the part? For, example

after spending a day with my curt, narcissistic sister my mother came home

feeling very full of herself and answering in a curt tone of voice. And

I've noticed that she sometimes takes on ways, and expressions that I say

and etc... after being with me. She will suddenly be trying to get my

attention through paying attention to things I like...such as my cat and

trying to tell me it is starving...and to come here and feed it.

She also becomes very dependent, clingy and needy after spending several

hours with me and won't leave me alone. Like she is afraid or something.

[Guest guest]

My mother was clingy in a bad way. The demanding, have to talk to me 5 times a

day clingy. And if I didn't answer when she called, she hung up and called right

back. Repeatedly. She'd do it for 2 hours if she had to until I answered. Didn't

matter that I had told her I had a 1:00 doctor appt...she was calling at 1:20,

demanding I give her an update on what the doctor was saying. If I didn't

answer, she'd leave pitiful messages about how I wasn't welcome at her funeral

and how I didn't care if she lived or died or how much I was 'stressing' her

because she couldn't hear my voice and " all she asked was to hear my

voice " ...which wasn't true..she demanded I sit on the phone with her for hours.

Then she'd call my husband and give him hell because I didn't answer. She didn't

care if he was at work. She'd call his secretary and say she had an emergency.

This would all take place in a matter of minutes.

She did it to my sister too. She almost got my sister fired from her job it was

so bad. And I didn't live near her, thank God, but my sister did and if my

sister didn't answer, she would just in the car and drive to her work or to her

house.

It was really, really over the top.

Re: Re: article on BP and brain and facial

expression

my nada is and never has been never clingy at least not with me...thank

goodness !!

Jackie

I know...sickeningly sweet acting to everyone else. But, difficult at home.

I really do see my mother as a child. And I really do think that she has a

sincere, sweet side. Intermixed with manipulations, and the like.

But, she also has a sweet phoney side that she uses to just get her way and

impress people.

However, I have noticed that her persona changes by who she spent the day

with. And I think part of that is her lack of a " constant feeling of self. "

If you don't know who your self is, how can you act the part? For, example

after spending a day with my curt, narcissistic sister my mother came home

feeling very full of herself and answering in a curt tone of voice. And

I've noticed that she sometimes takes on ways, and expressions that I say

and etc... after being with me. She will suddenly be trying to get my

attention through paying attention to things I like...such as my cat and

trying to tell me it is starving...and to come here and feed it.

She also becomes very dependent, clingy and needy after spending several

hours with me and won't leave me alone. Like she is afraid or something.

[Guest guest]

That's sad. I think they honestly don't know sometimes if they are a good

mother. And it's like they blank out at times during life.

>

> >Perhaps. I'm just not so sure they can control how they react

> >because they do have a brain abnormality. I could be wrong

> >about this, but from what I understand about BPD, and they're

> >learning more and more about it, their brains have actually

> >developed differently either based on genetics of environmental

> >factors.

> >

> >Maybe it's safer for me to believe my mother couldn't help

> >herself because if I think she could, then that means she chose

> >to be a crappy mother to me...and that sucks really bad.

> >

> >I told my therapist last night that I believe people with BPD

> >need intervention, much like addicts...especially when children

> >are involved. Someone needs to step in and first and foremost,

> >protect the children and force the BPD person to get help. If

> >they refuse help, the children still need protecting and that

> >means they don't get access to the children without

> >supervision.

> >

> >

> > Re: article on BP and brain and

> >facial expression

> >

> >

> >Long before I knew what BPD was I was describing my nada as

> >having the emotional maturity of a three year-old with a

> >teenager's raging hormones. The results of that combination

> >have

> >been pretty disasterous in multiple ways.

> >

> >I don't think BPD is about not being able to control actions. I

> >

> >think it is about the ability to decide how to act being

> >broken.

> >The more emotional connection they have to the situation, the

> >more problems they have with deciding how to act.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

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