Guest guest Posted July 12, 2010 Report Share Posted July 12, 2010 I ve noticed in various posts how very much our nadas raped us with inappropriate information about sex. Some of us know our father s sexual preferences, our nada s detailed sexual history, our father s impotence. We are mind raped with information about nada s subsequent relationships if they divorce our fathers. Rape is not to strong a word. Emotional incest is surely is, but when it was pressed past our barriers, and our pleas to stop, stop , stop telling us this, it was a form of rape. In this, emotionally, we are all similar to rape victims. We carry a sense of violation, we feel dirty in a way no shower can cleanse, and we cannot get those images out of our heads. We may come to react to nada s continued insistance on telling us these things with a rage similar to that of a rape victim whose rapist comes back to repeat the rape. Perhaps it is a form of exhibitionism in BP s that they tell such highly intimate things about their lives so inappropriately. In a twisted way it makes sense. In nada s world, she can meet a stranger, and be so " sympatico " with him , or her, that on the very first conversation she is sharing details I have trouble sharing with my therapist! She will walk away saying I just felt like I had known him forever. He, on the other hand, walks away saying Oh my GOD! Since we are there for so many years, if nada will be so inappropriate with a stranger, in her sick world it makes perfect sense that we really ought to know about, well. You can all fill in that blank. Bi Polars, who are similar in many ways to BP s, in their manic phase exhibit behaviours that are indistinguishable from sexual addiction. BP s , who cannot control their emotions, similarly cannot and do not control their sexual impulses, or the desire to talk about their sex lives. There is just no regulator involved at all. For me, this was an area where I finally set a very firm boundery and enforced it without exception. No one, I don t care who you are, with the exception of spouses, life partners, should ever feel any obligation to listen to sexual conversations from another person. So just like in the case of sex, and rape, no means no, every time. Don t be shy with making that point to nada. They will not be shy, and your reticence will let them plow right over top of you. Mom, I do NOT want to hear about Dad s impotence ( sexual preferences, ect. ) I do NOT want to hear about your latest conquest. I do NOT want to hear what a slut your sister is because she was sexual with a man. If you start to tell me about these things, the conversation is over. Be brave. You have the right to decide not to hear it. No one can make you see a movie you find offensive, or read a book that makes you cringe. Why should they be able to do it to you with words. May we all heal. May we all use our strength. We are strong, because we have survived what we did. We just don t recognize what tough , twisted roots of oak we have grown. That which does not kill us makes us stronger, right? Friends, if you are an adult who survived life with a BP parent, you were hardened in the crucible. You are steel. Learn to use it. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 Doug, I've been reading here a while and I first want to say that your words have been universally strong, affirming and supportive. I value them and you. I'm going to disagree with you about something that is important to me, though, because it is triggering in that my nada was one of my sexual abusers and was further complicit in my childhood sexual abuse, which included rape. She was also, typical to many BP, accustomed to trampling right over my (and generally anyone's) personal boundaries by recounting her sexual preferences and just general details of her sex life that I did not wish to hear (this tormented me). So while I totally get you there, and agree with how to handle this (we should all unequivocally stand up for ourselves every time) it isn't okay to call this " rape " in my opinion and here's why: Only rape is rape. Nothing else is. To say that something else is, waters down the violence of rape and makes of it a metaphor and a euphemism. As a victim's advocate, I'm not okay with that. I feel sure, given the supportive person that you are, that you can look at this more closely and see why. I do agree that it is a violation, and a harmful one, the way our nadas choose to continue to trample our boundaries by speaking of sex in ways that we do not want. That has to stop, and it can only stop with us. They aren't capable of it, and we can't expect them to be. And I also agree on the emotional incest charge because of the nada's expectation of unboundaried bonding. (I think unboundaried bonding is an issue for most BPs actually.) Thanks for hearing me, Doug, and please know that this isn't a criticism of the way that you handled this. I know how it feels to have to deal with it (my mother had ZERO boundaries in reference to me and I had no where to go). > > I ve noticed in various posts how very much our nadas raped us with > inappropriate information about sex. Some of us know our father s > sexual preferences, our nada s detailed sexual history, our father s > impotence. We are mind raped with information about nada s subsequent > relationships if they divorce our fathers. > > Rape is not to strong a word. Emotional incest is surely is, but when > it was pressed past our barriers, and our pleas to stop, stop , stop > telling us this, it was a form of rape. In this, emotionally, we are > all similar to rape victims. We carry a sense of violation, we feel > dirty in a way no shower can cleanse, and we cannot get those images > out of our heads. We may come to react to nada s continued insistance > on telling us these things with a rage similar to that of a rape victim > whose rapist comes back to repeat the rape. > > Perhaps it is a form of exhibitionism in BP s that they tell such highly > intimate things about their lives so inappropriately. In a twisted way > it makes sense. In nada s world, she can meet a stranger, and be so " > sympatico " with him , or her, that on the very first conversation she > is sharing details I have trouble sharing with my therapist! She will > walk away saying I just felt like I had known him forever. He, on the > other hand, walks away saying Oh my GOD! > > > Since we are there for so many years, if nada will be so inappropriate > with a stranger, in her sick world it makes perfect sense that we really > ought to know about, well. You can all fill in that blank. > > > Bi Polars, who are similar in many ways to BP s, in their manic phase > exhibit behaviours that are indistinguishable from sexual addiction. > BP s , who cannot control their emotions, similarly cannot and do not > control their sexual impulses, or the desire to talk about their sex > lives. There is just no regulator involved at all. > > For me, this was an area where I finally set a very firm boundery and > enforced it without exception. No one, I don t care who you are, with > the exception of spouses, life partners, should ever feel any obligation > to listen to sexual conversations from another person. So just like in > the case of sex, and rape, no means no, every time. Don t be shy with > making that point to nada. They will not be shy, and your reticence > will let them plow right over top of you. > > Mom, I do NOT want to hear about Dad s impotence ( sexual preferences, > ect. ) I do NOT want to hear about your latest conquest. I do NOT want > to hear what a slut your sister is because she was sexual with a man. > If you start to tell me about these things, the conversation is over. > > Be brave. You have the right to decide not to hear it. No one can make > you see a movie you find offensive, or read a book that makes you > cringe. Why should they be able to do it to you with words. > > May we all heal. May we all use our strength. We are strong, because > we have survived what we did. We just don t recognize what tough , > twisted roots of oak we have grown. That which does not kill us makes > us stronger, right? Friends, if you are an adult who survived life with > a BP parent, you were hardened in the crucible. You are steel. Learn to > use it. > > Doug > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 Doug, Thank you for trying to explain it that way. It's in.cred.ibly difficult to verbalize the experience of helplessness, violation, and shame. " Mind-rape " is a good way to evoke the connotations you're going after, even if I disagree with the usage of the word " rape. " , Thank you for voicing that. I agree that " Only rape is rape. Nothing else is. To say that something else is, waters down the violence of rape and makes of it a metaphor and a euphemism. " I wasn't sure how to explain that, and thank you for being non-confrontational =) There are so many forms of sexual abuse, and not many terms to define it. On one end of the spectrum, there's " rape " --specific and clearly defines (on paper, not in practice)--then there's " sexual abuse " on the other end... I think a lot of survivors are kept silent because there is no vocabulary to define what happened... it's like the world expects you to give all the details and define what YOU mean by " sexual abuse " and it's threatening as hell. I'm a big advocate for rape only meaning rape, because we don't need another poorly defined sexual abuse term to disempower and silence survivors. WTO: What do you think of calling BPD behaviors abuse? I've always struggled with that label. For me, " abuse " brings to mind vicious drunken beatings, and I KNOW that that's a stereotype. For me, abuse connotes something so wordlessly horrible, that I can't bear to apply it to my own history. It's strange because, Child Protective Services was called on my Nada, and now that I look back, a lot (most) of what she did is textbook/clearly defined " abuse " by CPS (this was during a 4-6 year period of my life). When a Nada anecdote slips out and people comment on it ( " that's abusive " " that's horrible " ) my first instinct is to say, yeah, but it's not like she hit me or anything, so it could be worse, and then I remember SHE DID HIT ME AND I HAD FRIGGIN BRUISES. Does anyone else struggle with " heavy " words? I'm constantly devaluing and belittling my own experience, so I shy away from them =( -Frances > > > > I ve noticed in various posts how very much our nadas raped us with > > inappropriate information about sex. Some of us know our father s > > sexual preferences, our nada s detailed sexual history, our father s > > impotence. We are mind raped with information about nada s subsequent > > relationships if they divorce our fathers. > > > > Rape is not to strong a word. Emotional incest is surely is, but when > > it was pressed past our barriers, and our pleas to stop, stop , stop > > telling us this, it was a form of rape. In this, emotionally, we are > > all similar to rape victims. We carry a sense of violation, we feel > > dirty in a way no shower can cleanse, and we cannot get those images > > out of our heads. We may come to react to nada s continued insistance > > on telling us these things with a rage similar to that of a rape victim > > whose rapist comes back to repeat the rape. > > > > Perhaps it is a form of exhibitionism in BP s that they tell such highly > > intimate things about their lives so inappropriately. In a twisted way > > it makes sense. In nada s world, she can meet a stranger, and be so " > > sympatico " with him , or her, that on the very first conversation she > > is sharing details I have trouble sharing with my therapist! She will > > walk away saying I just felt like I had known him forever. He, on the > > other hand, walks away saying Oh my GOD! > > > > > > Since we are there for so many years, if nada will be so inappropriate > > with a stranger, in her sick world it makes perfect sense that we really > > ought to know about, well. You can all fill in that blank. > > > > > > Bi Polars, who are similar in many ways to BP s, in their manic phase > > exhibit behaviours that are indistinguishable from sexual addiction. > > BP s , who cannot control their emotions, similarly cannot and do not > > control their sexual impulses, or the desire to talk about their sex > > lives. There is just no regulator involved at all. > > > > For me, this was an area where I finally set a very firm boundery and > > enforced it without exception. No one, I don t care who you are, with > > the exception of spouses, life partners, should ever feel any obligation > > to listen to sexual conversations from another person. So just like in > > the case of sex, and rape, no means no, every time. Don t be shy with > > making that point to nada. They will not be shy, and your reticence > > will let them plow right over top of you. > > > > Mom, I do NOT want to hear about Dad s impotence ( sexual preferences, > > ect. ) I do NOT want to hear about your latest conquest. I do NOT want > > to hear what a slut your sister is because she was sexual with a man. > > If you start to tell me about these things, the conversation is over. > > > > Be brave. You have the right to decide not to hear it. No one can make > > you see a movie you find offensive, or read a book that makes you > > cringe. Why should they be able to do it to you with words. > > > > May we all heal. May we all use our strength. We are strong, because > > we have survived what we did. We just don t recognize what tough , > > twisted roots of oak we have grown. That which does not kill us makes > > us stronger, right? Friends, if you are an adult who survived life with > > a BP parent, you were hardened in the crucible. You are steel. Learn to > > use it. > > > > Doug > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 Frances, I think many BPD behaviors are definitely abuse. Your image of abuse is one version physical abuse, but certainly not the only valid one. Not all abuse is physical at all. The way I see it abuse is inappropriate behavior that causes harm to another person. It can involve single incidents of harm, but more often it involves a pattern of repeated smaller harms. Repeatedly belittling someone is emotional abuse as is repeatedly going into rages at your child for no reason. Making a child repeat the same chore over and over again for hours because your standards are impossibly high is abuse. Discussing your sex life with your young children is a form of sexual abuse. Hitting out of anger is physical abuse. Physical abuse is bad enough, but the other forms of abuse can be a lot more damaging in the long term. Bruises heal relatively quickly. Your self-esteem takes much longer to heal. I think you devalue and belittle your own experiences because you were devalued and belittled by your nada for so long. I think it is common for KOs not to want to label what has happened to them as abuse and that there multiple reasons for that. To start with, it requires recognizing that the way we were raised wasn't normal. When that's all you know, it seems normal and normal doesn't seem like abuse. Calling it abuse also requires admitting that our parents were abusers. That's a big leap for a lot of people to make. Our society tells us over and over again that mothers and fathers are good and loving people. Most of us were trained not to go against nada and/or fada. Escaping from the mindset that they are right and we are wrong is hard. We grew up making excuses internally for their behavior and being told that the problem was us, not nada/fada. At 12:34 PM 07/13/2010 box1665 wrote (in part): >WTO: What do you think of calling BPD behaviors abuse? I've >always struggled with that label. For me, " abuse " brings to >mind vicious drunken beatings, and I KNOW that that's a >stereotype. For me, abuse connotes something so wordlessly >horrible, that I can't bear to apply it to my own history. It's >strange because, Child Protective Services was called on my >Nada, and now that I look back, a lot (most) of what she did is >textbook/clearly defined " abuse " by CPS (this was during a 4-6 >year period of my life). When a Nada anecdote slips out and >people comment on it ( " that's abusive " " that's horrible " ) my >first instinct is to say, yeah, but it's not like she hit me or >anything, so it could be worse, and then I remember SHE DID HIT >ME AND I HAD FRIGGIN BRUISES. Does anyone else struggle with > " heavy " words? I'm constantly devaluing and belittling my own >experience, so I shy away from them =( -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 Thank you, Frances. I thoroughly agree that " survivors are kept silent because there is no vocabulary to define what happened " and that " ...the world expects you to give all the details and define what YOU mean by 'sexual abuse' and it's threatening as hell. " I keep working and hoping to see this process made better and safer. As to your questions/struggles regarding whether the behaviors of BPs should be thought of in terms of actual abuse, I'd like you to consider the research on the effects of emotional abuse on children. Below I've linked to an article that speaks to the effects of behaviors such as ignoring, rejecting, isolating, exploiting, verbally assaulting, terrorizing and neglect (but so many more can be found). http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/fact-sheets/emotional-abuse.html From the website: " Children who are constantly ignored, shamed, terrorized or humiliated suffer at least as much, if not more, than if they are physically assaulted. Danya Glaser (2002) finds that emotional abuse can be " more strongly predictive of subsequent impairments in the children's development than the severity of physical abuse. " We know that children who are raised in environments where only emotional abuse took place (no physical) can suffer from PTSD. I advise that you also look up the symptoms of PTSD. I find that people are generally surprised to learn what those symptoms look like (i.e., they're not always the flashbacks and nightmares that popular culture indicates; they can be a larger set of other symptoms we might have been dealing with for a long time and hadn't realized it). I experienced emotional, physical and sexual abuse at the hands of my nada. I truly believe that it is the emotional abuse that has had the deepest impact on me. When she beat or harmed me in more deviant ways, I could recognize her as sick and wrong and bad. But when she harmed me emotionally, the child that I was believed that *I* was bad. She did damage to my self-esteem, to my heart. > > > > > > I ve noticed in various posts how very much our nadas raped us with > > > inappropriate information about sex. Some of us know our father s > > > sexual preferences, our nada s detailed sexual history, our father s > > > impotence. We are mind raped with information about nada s subsequent > > > relationships if they divorce our fathers. > > > > > > Rape is not to strong a word. Emotional incest is surely is, but when > > > it was pressed past our barriers, and our pleas to stop, stop , stop > > > telling us this, it was a form of rape. In this, emotionally, we are > > > all similar to rape victims. We carry a sense of violation, we feel > > > dirty in a way no shower can cleanse, and we cannot get those images > > > out of our heads. We may come to react to nada s continued insistance > > > on telling us these things with a rage similar to that of a rape victim > > > whose rapist comes back to repeat the rape. > > > > > > Perhaps it is a form of exhibitionism in BP s that they tell such highly > > > intimate things about their lives so inappropriately. In a twisted way > > > it makes sense. In nada s world, she can meet a stranger, and be so " > > > sympatico " with him , or her, that on the very first conversation she > > > is sharing details I have trouble sharing with my therapist! She will > > > walk away saying I just felt like I had known him forever. He, on the > > > other hand, walks away saying Oh my GOD! > > > > > > > > > Since we are there for so many years, if nada will be so inappropriate > > > with a stranger, in her sick world it makes perfect sense that we really > > > ought to know about, well. You can all fill in that blank. > > > > > > > > > Bi Polars, who are similar in many ways to BP s, in their manic phase > > > exhibit behaviours that are indistinguishable from sexual addiction. > > > BP s , who cannot control their emotions, similarly cannot and do not > > > control their sexual impulses, or the desire to talk about their sex > > > lives. There is just no regulator involved at all. > > > > > > For me, this was an area where I finally set a very firm boundery and > > > enforced it without exception. No one, I don t care who you are, with > > > the exception of spouses, life partners, should ever feel any obligation > > > to listen to sexual conversations from another person. So just like in > > > the case of sex, and rape, no means no, every time. Don t be shy with > > > making that point to nada. They will not be shy, and your reticence > > > will let them plow right over top of you. > > > > > > Mom, I do NOT want to hear about Dad s impotence ( sexual preferences, > > > ect. ) I do NOT want to hear about your latest conquest. I do NOT want > > > to hear what a slut your sister is because she was sexual with a man. > > > If you start to tell me about these things, the conversation is over. > > > > > > Be brave. You have the right to decide not to hear it. No one can make > > > you see a movie you find offensive, or read a book that makes you > > > cringe. Why should they be able to do it to you with words. > > > > > > May we all heal. May we all use our strength. We are strong, because > > > we have survived what we did. We just don t recognize what tough , > > > twisted roots of oak we have grown. That which does not kill us makes > > > us stronger, right? Friends, if you are an adult who survived life with > > > a BP parent, you were hardened in the crucible. You are steel. Learn to > > > use it. > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 I m so sorry for what you had to endure. I do not want in any way to minimize the effect of your experience. It was a horrible thing. Perhaps emotional incest is a more appropriate term. I did not coin the phrase mind rape, but borrowed it from a psychology text of the same title, Rape of the Mind, by Dr Joost A M Meerloo. His work is on the corrollaration between the effects of rape on those who endure it and the very similar effects on those who endure brainwashing techniques, in particular among prisoners in North Korea. I certainly understand how it would elicit an emotional response from you when you were actually raped. The purpose is to stress the seriousness of the violation felt by such things, and not to lessen the seriousness of actual physical rape. I think we are on the same page essentially, that is is behavior that ought not be tolerated. But if it triggered your pain, I do apologize. Doug > > > > I ve noticed in various posts how very much our nadas raped us with > > inappropriate information about sex. Some of us know our father s > > sexual preferences, our nada s detailed sexual history, our father s > > impotence. We are mind raped with information about nada s subsequent > > relationships if they divorce our fathers. > > > > Rape is not to strong a word. Emotional incest is surely is, but when > > it was pressed past our barriers, and our pleas to stop, stop , stop > > telling us this, it was a form of rape. In this, emotionally, we are > > all similar to rape victims. We carry a sense of violation, we feel > > dirty in a way no shower can cleanse, and we cannot get those images > > out of our heads. We may come to react to nada s continued insistance > > on telling us these things with a rage similar to that of a rape victim > > whose rapist comes back to repeat the rape. > > > > Perhaps it is a form of exhibitionism in BP s that they tell such highly > > intimate things about their lives so inappropriately. In a twisted way > > it makes sense. In nada s world, she can meet a stranger, and be so " > > sympatico " with him , or her, that on the very first conversation she > > is sharing details I have trouble sharing with my therapist! She will > > walk away saying I just felt like I had known him forever. He, on the > > other hand, walks away saying Oh my GOD! > > > > > > Since we are there for so many years, if nada will be so inappropriate > > with a stranger, in her sick world it makes perfect sense that we really > > ought to know about, well. You can all fill in that blank. > > > > > > Bi Polars, who are similar in many ways to BP s, in their manic phase > > exhibit behaviours that are indistinguishable from sexual addiction. > > BP s , who cannot control their emotions, similarly cannot and do not > > control their sexual impulses, or the desire to talk about their sex > > lives. There is just no regulator involved at all. > > > > For me, this was an area where I finally set a very firm boundery and > > enforced it without exception. No one, I don t care who you are, with > > the exception of spouses, life partners, should ever feel any obligation > > to listen to sexual conversations from another person. So just like in > > the case of sex, and rape, no means no, every time. Don t be shy with > > making that point to nada. They will not be shy, and your reticence > > will let them plow right over top of you. > > > > Mom, I do NOT want to hear about Dad s impotence ( sexual preferences, > > ect. ) I do NOT want to hear about your latest conquest. I do NOT want > > to hear what a slut your sister is because she was sexual with a man. > > If you start to tell me about these things, the conversation is over. > > > > Be brave. You have the right to decide not to hear it. No one can make > > you see a movie you find offensive, or read a book that makes you > > cringe. Why should they be able to do it to you with words. > > > > May we all heal. May we all use our strength. We are strong, because > > we have survived what we did. We just don t recognize what tough , > > twisted roots of oak we have grown. That which does not kill us makes > > us stronger, right? Friends, if you are an adult who survived life with > > a BP parent, you were hardened in the crucible. You are steel. Learn to > > use it. > > > > Doug > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 Terms and words can be tricky, it seems. All of us, by any sane definition, that were raised by a Borderline parent, suffered neglect and abuse that would knock most people off their feet and cause CPS workers to work overtime. Sadly, most of our stories are never heard when it could make a difference. Perhaps part of what we need to do, we survivors of that ordeal, is to create the vocabulary to define it. Call it what you will, we suffered, emotionally, physically, sexually, verbally. It was a step of healing for me to be able to put the term Borderline to what I had lived with from my nada. We have a start, with our list of abbreviations on here , like nada. But perhaps we truly need a whole new vocabulary to categorize the various gradations of our suffering, from emotional rages, to physical beatings, to forcible rape. Hmmm, that bears some thought. Doug > > > > > > I ve noticed in various posts how very much our nadas raped us with > > > inappropriate information about sex. Some of us know our father s > > > sexual preferences, our nada s detailed sexual history, our father s > > > impotence. We are mind raped with information about nada s subsequent > > > relationships if they divorce our fathers. > > > > > > Rape is not to strong a word. Emotional incest is surely is, but when > > > it was pressed past our barriers, and our pleas to stop, stop , stop > > > telling us this, it was a form of rape. In this, emotionally, we are > > > all similar to rape victims. We carry a sense of violation, we feel > > > dirty in a way no shower can cleanse, and we cannot get those images > > > out of our heads. We may come to react to nada s continued insistance > > > on telling us these things with a rage similar to that of a rape victim > > > whose rapist comes back to repeat the rape. > > > > > > Perhaps it is a form of exhibitionism in BP s that they tell such highly > > > intimate things about their lives so inappropriately. In a twisted way > > > it makes sense. In nada s world, she can meet a stranger, and be so " > > > sympatico " with him , or her, that on the very first conversation she > > > is sharing details I have trouble sharing with my therapist! She will > > > walk away saying I just felt like I had known him forever. He, on the > > > other hand, walks away saying Oh my GOD! > > > > > > > > > Since we are there for so many years, if nada will be so inappropriate > > > with a stranger, in her sick world it makes perfect sense that we really > > > ought to know about, well. You can all fill in that blank. > > > > > > > > > Bi Polars, who are similar in many ways to BP s, in their manic phase > > > exhibit behaviours that are indistinguishable from sexual addiction. > > > BP s , who cannot control their emotions, similarly cannot and do not > > > control their sexual impulses, or the desire to talk about their sex > > > lives. There is just no regulator involved at all. > > > > > > For me, this was an area where I finally set a very firm boundery and > > > enforced it without exception. No one, I don t care who you are, with > > > the exception of spouses, life partners, should ever feel any obligation > > > to listen to sexual conversations from another person. So just like in > > > the case of sex, and rape, no means no, every time. Don t be shy with > > > making that point to nada. They will not be shy, and your reticence > > > will let them plow right over top of you. > > > > > > Mom, I do NOT want to hear about Dad s impotence ( sexual preferences, > > > ect. ) I do NOT want to hear about your latest conquest. I do NOT want > > > to hear what a slut your sister is because she was sexual with a man. > > > If you start to tell me about these things, the conversation is over. > > > > > > Be brave. You have the right to decide not to hear it. No one can make > > > you see a movie you find offensive, or read a book that makes you > > > cringe. Why should they be able to do it to you with words. > > > > > > May we all heal. May we all use our strength. We are strong, because > > > we have survived what we did. We just don t recognize what tough , > > > twisted roots of oak we have grown. That which does not kill us makes > > > us stronger, right? Friends, if you are an adult who survived life with > > > a BP parent, you were hardened in the crucible. You are steel. Learn to > > > use it. > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 Doug, I appreciate your understanding and sympathy, but did not mean to personalize the situation (I only meant to use my story as an example of what could be true for many of us). You're right in that we are essentially on the same page. I agree with you in that finding a language for these things is what is important. If the problem is dialectical, then we need to set to work on it, so that we can address the more pressing concern of wresting our power from the BPs in our lives who inadvertently - due to the nature of their disease - manage to trample it. Having one's parent continually discuss her or his sex life with us non-consensually is a violation. Period. The end. And in that way, I agree that it can be viewed as a form of both emotional and sexual abuse. These instances of trauma stay with us, long after we've learned to stand up to our nada/fada. That is also something that I'm concerned about, in that I recognize now that I'm likely repeating the dysfunctional patterns of relationships I learned from my nada (i.e., the poor defense strategies I used with her). I wonder how common that is for Adult Children of BPs? And how many of us on this list could also join one of the 'partners of' lists... > > > > > > I ve noticed in various posts how very much our nadas raped us with > > > inappropriate information about sex. Some of us know our father s > > > sexual preferences, our nada s detailed sexual history, our father s > > > impotence. We are mind raped with information about nada s > subsequent > > > relationships if they divorce our fathers. > > > > > > Rape is not to strong a word. Emotional incest is surely is, but > when > > > it was pressed past our barriers, and our pleas to stop, stop , stop > > > telling us this, it was a form of rape. In this, emotionally, we > are > > > all similar to rape victims. We carry a sense of violation, we > feel > > > dirty in a way no shower can cleanse, and we cannot get those > images > > > out of our heads. We may come to react to nada s continued > insistance > > > on telling us these things with a rage similar to that of a rape > victim > > > whose rapist comes back to repeat the rape. > > > > > > Perhaps it is a form of exhibitionism in BP s that they tell such > highly > > > intimate things about their lives so inappropriately. In a twisted > way > > > it makes sense. In nada s world, she can meet a stranger, and be so > " > > > sympatico " with him , or her, that on the very first conversation > she > > > is sharing details I have trouble sharing with my therapist! She > will > > > walk away saying I just felt like I had known him forever. He, on > the > > > other hand, walks away saying Oh my GOD! > > > > > > > > > Since we are there for so many years, if nada will be so > inappropriate > > > with a stranger, in her sick world it makes perfect sense that we > really > > > ought to know about, well. You can all fill in that blank. > > > > > > > > > Bi Polars, who are similar in many ways to BP s, in their manic > phase > > > exhibit behaviours that are indistinguishable from sexual addiction. > > > BP s , who cannot control their emotions, similarly cannot and do > not > > > control their sexual impulses, or the desire to talk about their sex > > > lives. There is just no regulator involved at all. > > > > > > For me, this was an area where I finally set a very firm boundery > and > > > enforced it without exception. No one, I don t care who you are, > with > > > the exception of spouses, life partners, should ever feel any > obligation > > > to listen to sexual conversations from another person. So just like > in > > > the case of sex, and rape, no means no, every time. Don t be shy > with > > > making that point to nada. They will not be shy, and your reticence > > > will let them plow right over top of you. > > > > > > Mom, I do NOT want to hear about Dad s impotence ( sexual > preferences, > > > ect. ) I do NOT want to hear about your latest conquest. I do NOT > want > > > to hear what a slut your sister is because she was sexual with a > man. > > > If you start to tell me about these things, the conversation is > over. > > > > > > Be brave. You have the right to decide not to hear it. No one can > make > > > you see a movie you find offensive, or read a book that makes you > > > cringe. Why should they be able to do it to you with words. > > > > > > May we all heal. May we all use our strength. We are strong, > because > > > we have survived what we did. We just don t recognize what tough , > > > twisted roots of oak we have grown. That which does not kill us > makes > > > us stronger, right? Friends, if you are an adult who survived life > with > > > a BP parent, you were hardened in the crucible. You are steel. > Learn to > > > use it. > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2010 Report Share Posted July 13, 2010 It took me a long time to admit that my mother's behaviour was abusive and it was only in the past year that I have confronted the idea. I have also just recently been able to discuss the idea openly. I think it was hard because it felt like a betrayal to admit it. Thanks for your thoughts all. Much peace, Lynda > > > > > > > > I ve noticed in various posts how very much our nadas raped us with > > > > inappropriate information about sex. Some of us know our father s > > > > sexual preferences, our nada s detailed sexual history, our father s > > > > impotence. We are mind raped with information about nada s > > subsequent > > > > relationships if they divorce our fathers. > > > > > > > > Rape is not to strong a word. Emotional incest is surely is, but > > when > > > > it was pressed past our barriers, and our pleas to stop, stop , stop > > > > telling us this, it was a form of rape. In this, emotionally, we > > are > > > > all similar to rape victims. We carry a sense of violation, we > > feel > > > > dirty in a way no shower can cleanse, and we cannot get those > > images > > > > out of our heads. We may come to react to nada s continued > > insistance > > > > on telling us these things with a rage similar to that of a rape > > victim > > > > whose rapist comes back to repeat the rape. > > > > > > > > Perhaps it is a form of exhibitionism in BP s that they tell such > > highly > > > > intimate things about their lives so inappropriately. In a twisted > > way > > > > it makes sense. In nada s world, she can meet a stranger, and be so > > " > > > > sympatico " with him , or her, that on the very first conversation > > she > > > > is sharing details I have trouble sharing with my therapist! She > > will > > > > walk away saying I just felt like I had known him forever. He, on > > the > > > > other hand, walks away saying Oh my GOD! > > > > > > > > > > > > Since we are there for so many years, if nada will be so > > inappropriate > > > > with a stranger, in her sick world it makes perfect sense that we > > really > > > > ought to know about, well. You can all fill in that blank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bi Polars, who are similar in many ways to BP s, in their manic > > phase > > > > exhibit behaviours that are indistinguishable from sexual addiction. > > > > BP s , who cannot control their emotions, similarly cannot and do > > not > > > > control their sexual impulses, or the desire to talk about their sex > > > > lives. There is just no regulator involved at all. > > > > > > > > For me, this was an area where I finally set a very firm boundery > > and > > > > enforced it without exception. No one, I don t care who you are, > > with > > > > the exception of spouses, life partners, should ever feel any > > obligation > > > > to listen to sexual conversations from another person. So just like > > in > > > > the case of sex, and rape, no means no, every time. Don t be shy > > with > > > > making that point to nada. They will not be shy, and your reticence > > > > will let them plow right over top of you. > > > > > > > > Mom, I do NOT want to hear about Dad s impotence ( sexual > > preferences, > > > > ect. ) I do NOT want to hear about your latest conquest. I do NOT > > want > > > > to hear what a slut your sister is because she was sexual with a > > man. > > > > If you start to tell me about these things, the conversation is > > over. > > > > > > > > Be brave. You have the right to decide not to hear it. No one can > > make > > > > you see a movie you find offensive, or read a book that makes you > > > > cringe. Why should they be able to do it to you with words. > > > > > > > > May we all heal. May we all use our strength. We are strong, > > because > > > > we have survived what we did. We just don t recognize what tough , > > > > twisted roots of oak we have grown. That which does not kill us > > makes > > > > us stronger, right? Friends, if you are an adult who survived life > > with > > > > a BP parent, you were hardened in the crucible. You are steel. > > Learn to > > > > use it. > > > > > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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