Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 SEan, I go along with your preacher that Western thought values liberty etc more than eastern -- Eastern thought tends to be heavily fatalistic and tends to support highly unequal social structures. Personally, I see freedom as being central to the Judaeo-Xtian tradition -- Isaiah 58: 6 - 7, and elsewhere, and think W. B. Yeats wrote brilliantly in favour of West against East in his late poem " The Statues " [not trying start a religious argument here by the way!!!]-- we cannot be passive Buddha-slugs and pursue an active interest in liberty. Doug. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >CC: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:59:57 -0400 > > > > ands Judith, > >I am just getting a chance to enter this value/truth debate. Hows this? >I agree with both of you. The well known disparity of Jefferson writing >the Declaration of Independence on one hand, and owning slaves on the >other has already been considered. I think that I have from time to time >made an idpl, so to speak out of enligtenment thinking. Today, however, I >see the enlightenment thinkers as expressing truth ( life and liberty) on >hand, but also accepting the subjagation of many people on the other. >Beyond the first line, of course, the document is a responce to England's >colonail policy. I guess what I am getting at is that Enlightenment >thinkers did not have any monopoly on truth. Thosegreat principles were >expressed for thousands of years, with more or less eloqunece perhaps, in >relgious political, and philohical writnings from at least a s long as >people have been recording thier thoughts. > >Tonight at my church, for example, a member gave a short seppech about >the primacy of " Western thought " and used the Declaration as evidence. >It really gave me pause. I think that, having allowed myself to expolre >as ideas of a great variety of cutures, that the right to life and >liberty are human, and not westernPerhaps in this Global age, we would do >well to state them again as a human family, not just as 'western >thinkers. " > >sean ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 Dear , There's some real thought (properly tempered with feeling)in your letter, and I'm obliged to you for your fine distinction between " values " and " opinions " -- everything in our moral currency seems to have been debased by our Great Society (and I'm talking UK as much as US here) -- morality is reduced to a pick 'n' mix bag of opinions in a culture that only wants us to shop till we drop. Opinions ... values ... truths ... TRUTH (but the last is going to far for some and I'll keep my religious capitals to myself). Respect -- . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:15:16 -0400 > >Hi , >First off, let me be clear; I am not arguing. I sometimes fear that >point-counterpoint emails are interpreted that way by one participants, >and I want to be clear that I hear you. Having said that, weeelll.... > > " I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are not. this >is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. " >But what ARE " values " ? I believe it a rather artificial term used >towards damaging ends. Right now there is a BoyScout before the Supreme >Court, having been expelled from that organization on the basis of > " values " . In all our long history " values " , phrased in one concept or >another, have been used to justify racism, the inquisition, genocide >and slavery. Why did the Germans execute the Jews? Their " values " were >in danger from the Jewish " contamination " of their culture- of their >values. Why were people put on the rack during the Inquisition? Because >of differing religious beliefs, or values. I believe the word " values " >is used nowadays to give an undeserved weight to the thing that it is >used to describe- opinions. Do not call a hatred of homosexuals, >atheists, catholics, jews, etc. etc. " values " - those are opinions. On >the same note, love of country, a belief in fairness and an intolerance >of bigotry are not " values " , but opinions. And an opinion is either >right or wrong. Whether we are able to recognize it or not, there is >always a right or a wrong opinion of each and every subject in our >existence. 1+1 equals either 2 or 3. I believe all of our questions in >life can be answered with that kind of mathematical precision- it's >either right or wrong. All that keeps us from the answers is a lack of >sufficient technology. If we don't blow ourselves up, one day we will >have ALL the answers, there will be permanent prosperity, an end to >disease, poverty, and polution. But we will never come up with the >answers unless we accept nothing short of TRUTH. Values which do not >conform to truth are a danger to our evolution. The present day values >of our society allow the taking of life through executions, the loss of >liberty through a prison system which confines those who have committed >no actual harm to others and roadblocks to the pursuit of happiness >through the aggregate of those actions. These are all violations of >TRUTHS which our foremost philosophers sought to codify into a living >law through the formation of the United States of America through >rebellion, truths which have been sacrificed to " values " , values that >just seem to always favor the white man and put the black man in jail. > > >SEAN P CASHIN wrote: > > > > Hi , > > > > I know I'm entering this conversation late, but I'm throwing my two >cents > > in anyway. I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are > > not. this is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. On >the > > face of it, a value is what considers (or a community) believes to be of > > great worth. Because societies are fluid, I think that values, >therefore > > are fluid as well. And what one society deems " of value " may be > > repugnant to another. Just because values are relative, however, does > > not necessarily diminish their importance. > > > > Of course there is the reality that a community may value that which is > > bigoted, narrow minded and evil. The US once valued the institution of > > slavery for example. Now we do not. > > > > Truth, I believe is unchanging. This is what makes the search for truth > > so fought with difficulty. For example, I belive it a truth that human > > beings thrive best in an atmosphere of liberty. I don't believe that > > this is relative. So while I can accept that one society values a > > particular political approach, while another may not, I cannot respect > > tyranny anywhere. > > > > Thanks everyone for this thought provoking topic. We never sat around >in > > AA diners chatting about truth vs. values. This sure is a refreshing > > change. from so many other " recovery " lists. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com: > > http://click./1/3555/1/_/4324/_/956802104/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 Dear Judith, Thanks for the reading tip. Without wishing to provoke contention, I see the internalised moral passivity of Buddhism as a pretty close parallel to our dear old 12 steps -- ignore the world, the work is all inside you. Oh those people dropping dead from starvation are probably in denial . . . " When gong and conch declare the hour to bless, Grimalkin crawls to Buddha's emptiness " -- W.B.Yeats, " The Statues " . yrs, D. http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:00:59 -0000 > >Book recommendation: The Guru Papers--Masks of Authoritarian Power, >by >Kramer & Alstad. It reads like a textbook to a certain extent, but >your description of Eastern vs. Western thought reminded me of the >authors' position. > >Judith > > > > SEan, > > I go along with your preacher that Western thought values liberty >etc more > > than eastern -- Eastern thought tends to be heavily fatalistic and >tends to > > support highly unequal social structures. Personally, I see freedom >as being > > central to the Judaeo-Xtian tradition -- Isaiah 58: 6 - 7, and >elsewhere, > > and think W. B. Yeats wrote brilliantly in favour of West against >East in > > his late poem " The Statues " [not trying start a religious argument >here by > > the way!!!]-- we cannot be passive Buddha-slugs and pursue an >active > > interest in liberty. > > Doug. > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 Dear Judith, Thanks for the reading tip. Without wishing to provoke contention, I see the internalised moral passivity of Buddhism as a pretty close parallel to our dear old 12 steps -- ignore the world, the work is all inside you. Oh those people dropping dead from starvation are probably in denial . . . " When gong and conch declare the hour to bless, Grimalkin crawls to Buddha's emptiness " -- W.B.Yeats, " The Statues " . yrs, D. http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:00:59 -0000 > >Book recommendation: The Guru Papers--Masks of Authoritarian Power, >by >Kramer & Alstad. It reads like a textbook to a certain extent, but >your description of Eastern vs. Western thought reminded me of the >authors' position. > >Judith > > > > SEan, > > I go along with your preacher that Western thought values liberty >etc more > > than eastern -- Eastern thought tends to be heavily fatalistic and >tends to > > support highly unequal social structures. Personally, I see freedom >as being > > central to the Judaeo-Xtian tradition -- Isaiah 58: 6 - 7, and >elsewhere, > > and think W. B. Yeats wrote brilliantly in favour of West against >East in > > his late poem " The Statues " [not trying start a religious argument >here by > > the way!!!]-- we cannot be passive Buddha-slugs and pursue an >active > > interest in liberty. > > Doug. > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 -----Original Message----- >Hi , >First off, let me be clear; I am not arguing. I sometimes fear that >point-counterpoint emails are interpreted that way by one participants, >and I want to be clear that I hear you. Having said that, weeelll.... > > " I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are not. this >is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. " >But what ARE " values " ? I believe it a rather artificial term used >towards damaging ends. Right now there is a BoyScout before the Supreme >Court, having been expelled from that organization on the basis of > " values " . In all our long history " values " , phrased in one concept or >another, have been used to justify racism, the inquisition, genocide >and slavery. Why did the Germans execute the Jews? Their " values " were >in danger from the Jewish " contamination " of their culture- of their >values. Why were people put on the rack during the Inquisition? Because >of differing religious beliefs, or values. I believe the word " values " >is used nowadays to give an undeserved weight to the thing that it is >used to describe- opinions. Do not call a hatred of homosexuals, >atheists, catholics, jews, etc. etc. " values " - those are opinions. On >the same note, love of country, a belief in fairness and an intolerance >of bigotry are not " values " , but opinions. And an opinion is either >right or wrong. Whether we are able to recognize it or not, there is >always a right or a wrong opinion of each and every subject in our >existence. 1+1 equals either 2 or 3. I believe all of our questions in >life can be answered with that kind of mathematical precision- it's >either right or wrong. All that keeps us from the answers is a lack of >sufficient technology. If we don't blow ourselves up, one day we will >have ALL the answers, there will be permanent prosperity, an end to >disease, poverty, and polution. But we will never come up with the >answers unless we accept nothing short of TRUTH. But isn't there a missing link between having all the answers and permanent prosperity? Namely geting people to cooperate in the implementation of the TRUTH? What if enough people just don't LIKE the truth and refuse to believe it? This is not a trivial problem. Consider the fact that people are still disputing who killed Kennedy, whether the universe is older or younger than 10,000 years, and whether the US Government has stored flying saucer debris in a secret hiding place. -- wally PS: Slightly off-topic at this point, but something I've been meaning to ask... If the Declaration's unalienable right to life makes the death penalty absolutely wrong, does it also make killing in war absolutely wrong? >Values which do not >conform to truth are a danger to our evolution. The present day values >of our society allow the taking of life through executions, the loss of >liberty through a prison system which confines those who have committed >no actual harm to others and roadblocks to the pursuit of happiness >through the aggregate of those actions. These are all violations of >TRUTHS which our foremost philosophers sought to codify into a living >law through the formation of the United States of America through >rebellion, truths which have been sacrificed to " values " , values that >just seem to always favor the white man and put the black man in jail. > > >SEAN P CASHIN wrote: >> >> Hi , >> >> I know I'm entering this conversation late, but I'm throwing my two cents >> in anyway. I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are >> not. this is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. On the >> face of it, a value is what considers (or a community) believes to be of >> great worth. Because societies are fluid, I think that values, therefore >> are fluid as well. And what one society deems " of value " may be >> repugnant to another. Just because values are relative, however, does >> not necessarily diminish their importance. >> >> Of course there is the reality that a community may value that which is >> bigoted, narrow minded and evil. The US once valued the institution of >> slavery for example. Now we do not. >> >> Truth, I believe is unchanging. This is what makes the search for truth >> so fought with difficulty. For example, I belive it a truth that human >> beings thrive best in an atmosphere of liberty. I don't believe that >> this is relative. So while I can accept that one society values a >> particular political approach, while another may not, I cannot respect >> tyranny anywhere. >> >> Thanks everyone for this thought provoking topic. We never sat around in >> AA diners chatting about truth vs. values. This sure is a refreshing >> change. from so many other " recovery " lists. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com: >> http://click./1/3555/1/_/4324/_/956802104/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com: >http://click./1/3555/1/_/4324/_/956805330/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 wally wrote: > But isn't there a missing link between having all the answers and permanent > prosperity? Namely geting people to cooperate in the implementation of the > TRUTH? What if enough people just don't LIKE the truth and refuse to believe > it? +++++ That actually goes to point out why I feel this subject is germaine to 12 Step Free. AA's refusal to acknowledge truths about itself, compouinded with it's influence in and throughout our society, is a stumbling block in our path towards the enlightened society the founders envisioned. For a nation built on concepts of truth, AA's damages to truth are dangerous to the health of our society. ================= wally wrote: > > PS: Slightly off-topic at this point, but something I've been meaning to > ask... If the Declaration's unalienable right to life makes the death > penalty absolutely wrong, does it also make killing in war absolutely wrong? +++++ I believe the answer is that a right CAN be violated when it MUST be violated. In our early colonies, there were no means to imprison a person for life, so the death penalty was absolutely necessary for the offense of murder. In war, a nations survival is being defended (ideally) and no other choice is available. Is it still wrong? absolutely. But no other choice is available, so you must. I remember a news program about the man who shot Luther King. His father was a lowdown redneck who stole and lied to feed his family. He made an interesting observation, though. He said that if you had to lie to feed your family, it was acceptable. Now, consider that. Your family is starving in the poor south and you can put food on their table by lying. Isn't it true that you would be even lower than you already are if you let your family go hungry so you can maintain your integrity? If a person rapes, his right to liberty must be violated with his imprisonment. If a person steals, his right to liberty must be violated in an effert to change his behavior and protect society from his larceny. That's my problem with our justice system. We don't employ it with regard for the truths we have codified in our historical documents. It has become simply a tool of revenge and politics. We're not supposed to use prison sentences to compensate the victim or advance political " hard on crime " careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 Good stuff there, , thanks -- Justice is an absolute ideal, not a system based on some utilitarian compensation scheme. Doug. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:31:13 -0400 > >wally wrote: > > > But isn't there a missing link between having all the answers and >permanent > > prosperity? Namely geting people to cooperate in the implementation of >the > > TRUTH? What if enough people just don't LIKE the truth and refuse to >believe > > it? >+++++ >That actually goes to point out why I feel this subject is germaine to >12 Step Free. AA's refusal to acknowledge truths about itself, >compouinded with it's influence in and throughout our society, is a >stumbling block in our path towards the enlightened society the founders >envisioned. For a nation built on concepts of truth, AA's damages to >truth are dangerous to the health of our society. >================= >wally wrote: > > > PS: Slightly off-topic at this point, but something I've been meaning >to > > ask... If the Declaration's unalienable right to life makes the death > > penalty absolutely wrong, does it also make killing in war absolutely >wrong? >+++++ >I believe the answer is that a right CAN be violated when it MUST be >violated. In our early colonies, there were no means to imprison a >person for life, so the death penalty was absolutely necessary for the >offense of murder. In war, a nations survival is being defended >(ideally) and no other choice is available. Is it still wrong? >absolutely. But no other choice is available, so you must. I remember a >news program about the man who shot Luther King. His father was a >lowdown redneck who stole and lied to feed his family. He made an >interesting observation, though. He said that if you had to lie to feed >your family, it was acceptable. Now, consider that. Your family is >starving in the poor south and you can put food on their table by lying. >Isn't it true that you would be even lower than you already are if you >let your family go hungry so you can maintain your integrity? If a >person rapes, his right to liberty must be violated with his >imprisonment. If a person steals, his right to liberty must be violated >in an effert to change his behavior and protect society from his >larceny. >That's my problem with our justice system. We don't employ it with >regard for the truths we have codified in our historical documents. It >has become simply a tool of revenge and politics. We're not supposed to >use prison sentences to compensate the victim or advance political " hard >on crime " careers. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 I don't know if there is such a thing as a universal " Truth " or not. I DO know that I don't trust anyone who tells me that they know for sure that there is, and that they know for sure what it is. my best to all, ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 , I don't want to fall out with your over this, but my Xian exclusivity is well held in check by your worthy inclusivity: we are coming at the same matter from opposite points on one long, I believe united, front of views, values, beliefs, and faith. The " matter " is that of truth and values, and how the individual defines them for him/her self. Glad to have you concentrate my mind on such a matter, which I often wish would go away. The difficulty with our present " affirmative pluralism " is we spend too much time worrying about treading on one another's toes in the crowded lobbies of " belief " and not enough saying what the hell we mean. I'm suspicious of Buddhism, I suppose, because I think it's taken as a soft-optiuon fad for a lot of people, another way round the moral cruxes of life, conscience, and suffering not entirely dissimilar to AA ( " this too will pass . . . " " yawn yawn " ). I was a Buddhist for a couple of years, was happy to call myself one anyway, but regard it as one of the many erros of a well mis-spent youth. Hope we can along on this one. Doug. don't miss new strangebombs pic at http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/jimi.html !!!! ps attach " 12 step babe " -- she's for real, God help us!!! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Hi Doublas: I wasn't sure if you were aware of the files area set aside for this list. While you're there take a look at Baby Doe. /files/12-step-free As a quick reminder most of the people on this list are sitting on phone connections and it takes awhile to download their email as it is. The files area allows them to take a look as time allows and gives a permanent home to that file you just sent. Plus you can send a link to it Like so..... /files/12-step-free/BABY+Doe.jpg How's that for shameless promotion? Re: Re: Core Values << File: nachick-2.JPG >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Dear , Thanks for directing me to the " files zone " -- I didn't know about this. Baby Doe looks on terrifyingly good form! Best, Doug. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: RE: Re: Core Values >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:27:39 -0500 > >Hi Doublas: > >I wasn't sure if you were aware of the files area set aside for this >list. While you're there take a look at Baby Doe. > >/files/12-step-free > >As a quick reminder most of the people on this list are sitting on >phone connections and it takes awhile to download their email as it >is. The files area allows them to take a look as time allows and >gives a permanent home to that file you just sent. > > > >Plus you can send a link to it Like so..... > >/files/12-step-free/BABY+Doe.jpg > >How's that for shameless promotion? > > > > Re: Re: Core Values > > << File: nachick-2.JPG >> > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Hi , Just one note on the Boy Scout thing. From what I understand, a challenge similar to this one was dismissed because BSA is a private organization and is free to exclude those it chooses to. But this time, the court's thinking is that BSA is an organization of " public accomodation " . I tend to agree with the idea of being a private organization. I wouldn't want the courts telling me who I have to hang around with in my private life, and I feel that if BSA wants to be bigoted and hateful, that is their right. That's freedom- we are free to love or hate. BSA chooses hate, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 SEAN P CASHIN wrote: > > Hi , > A question? Is it possible to really live in someone else' vision, even that of the framers....To me, the America is not a stagnant vision of men long dead, but rather a vibrant reality.... So I guess I am more concerned about the rights of Americans here and now, than I am about the founders vision. As far sighted as they were, in the end the framers were fallible human beings imo. And I don't think America. in 2000 ce is anything that the founders could have imagined in their wildest dreams. +++++++++++++++ Well. all of that goes to accentuate my central point. The founders did not have a " vision " ; they created a nation built on what IS true. If it is real truth, it will NEVER be false. The fact that it is a " vibrant reality " goes towards proving the truth of their statements. If you look at what is wrong in our nation, it also goes to point out where we have strayed from the truth. As a gay man, I'm sure you realize the discrimination of our laws, especially the banning of gay marriages. Is that not a violation of your right to the pursuit of happiness? If you can't love without penalty, there is something wrong. Our booming prison industry is proof of what happens when we violate the rights to liberty for minorities. While white people do drugs at a higher rate per capita of the white population, blacks are imprisoned at a far higher rate per capita of their race for drug offenses. As a result of this violation, the black community suffers from broken families and poverty. As far as the right to life, killing is just wrong, man, whether it's Nicky the knee-breaker or the State of New York ( no slam against Italians there, I was just looking for a rhyme :-) ) What I'm getting at is that the founders realized that the world would change, and they knew the strength of truth. They knew that a nation built on truth would have the strongest foundation and could last forever. I feel strongly that the farther we stray from the truth, the weaker our nation becomes. When I speak against the death penalty and racist laws, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I feel I am actually extremely conservative. The way that was laid 200+ years ago is the truth, and if we stray, we will fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Dear , Your letter puts me in mind of the fact that political correctness/doctrinaire " considerateness " divides us rather than helping to unite us humans -- everyone is viewed as part of one " group " or another by some strange centralized liberal moral sensibility, which surveys the " groups " with its ethical censorship radar, and utters " no no " whenever one of the " groups " may have been injured in the delciate mechanisms of their identity. This is a form of discrimination from some a WASP high-ground in which the religious element of " Protestantism " has been emasculated by the total dominance of secular materialism in our lives, culture and social infrastructures. Leave the " P " out and we've got " WAS " -- the moral has-beens without a sting, lost in the virtual morality Disney world of Political Correctness. In Britain PC stands for Police Constable. Am I disagreeing with you? Who knows? I'm certainly not motivated by negative emotions or vicious social instincts in stating what I do (whatever that is!). Best wishes and let's just keep on doing the thinking, huh? -- unlike our favourite fellowships where the big book and the zombie group are happy to do it for you. Doug. http:www.geocities.com/bouglaf --- Coming soon totalabstinencebomb -- posting by 4 a.m. British time. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:07:38 -0400 > >SEAN P CASHIN wrote: > > > > Hi , > > >A question? Is it possible to really live in someone else' vision, even >that of the framers....To me, the America is not a stagnant vision of >men long dead, but rather a vibrant reality.... So I guess I am more >concerned about the rights of Americans here and now, than I am about >the founders vision. As far sighted as they were, in the end the >framers were fallible human beings imo. And I don't think America. in >2000 ce is anything that the founders could have imagined in their >wildest dreams. >+++++++++++++++ >Well. all of that goes to accentuate my central point. The founders did >not have a " vision " ; they created a nation built on what IS true. If it >is real truth, it will NEVER be false. The fact that it is a " vibrant >reality " goes towards proving the truth of their statements. If you look >at what is wrong in our nation, it also goes to point out where we have >strayed from the truth. As a gay man, I'm sure you realize the >discrimination of our laws, especially the banning of gay marriages. Is >that not a violation of your right to the pursuit of happiness? If you >can't love without penalty, there is something wrong. Our booming prison >industry is proof of what happens when we violate the rights to liberty >for minorities. While white people do drugs at a higher rate per capita >of the white population, blacks are imprisoned at a far higher rate per >capita of their race for drug offenses. As a result of this violation, >the black community suffers from broken families and poverty. As far as >the right to life, killing is just wrong, man, whether it's Nicky the >knee-breaker or the State of New York ( no slam against Italians there, >I was just looking for a rhyme :-) ) > >What I'm getting at is that the founders realized that the world would >change, and they knew the strength of truth. They knew that a nation >built on truth would have the strongest foundation and could last >forever. I feel strongly that the farther we stray from the truth, the >weaker our nation becomes. When I speak against the death penalty and >racist laws, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I feel I am actually >extremely conservative. The way that was laid 200+ years ago is the >truth, and if we stray, we will fall. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 --- In 12-step-freeegroups, " douglas houston " <doug_houston@h...> > > ps attach " 12 step babe " -- she's for real, God help us!!! Now thats what I call my drug of choice!!!! P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Dear , Thanks for raising my self-esteem by several points. You deserve a laugh at http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html Yours Doug > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >CC: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:27:56 -0400 > > > >, > >I really liked your response. thanks for putting so much time into it. > >I want to thank you and this list for your help in my AA withdrawal >period. What kind, thoughtful, thinking people we have on this list. It >is a pleasure to be associated with you. > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Hey Doug You are one mad dude pal! Tx for the laugh. P. > Dear , > > Thanks for raising my self-esteem by several points. > > You deserve a laugh at > > http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html > > Yours > Doug > > > >From: SEAN P CASHIN <uusean@j...> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > >To: 12-step-freeegroups > >CC: 12-step-freeegroups > >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values > >Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:27:56 -0400 > > > > > > > >, > > > >I really liked your response. thanks for putting so much time into it. > > > >I want to thank you and this list for your help in my AA withdrawal > >period. What kind, thoughtful, thinking people we have on this list. It > >is a pleasure to be associated with you. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 , Please -- I did not say in context that " AA is like Buddhism " , but that their practice favours and issues in similarly quietistic positions. There are a lot of spiritual fashion-victims around, many of them in AA, a lot out with the satanists etc, some with Buddhism -- the worth of a philosophy or religion cannot be judged by looking at its casual, deluded, or misguided adherents. I was merely remarking on the existence of such adherents and was not directly correlating that with my opinion of Buddhism or anything. By the way, I've read 1) AA " old timer " stuff and know the Oxford Group connection, but as was previously suggested by Bjorn, they seem to have a Nazi-ish mind cast. I've also read very widely in world religion -- I won't bore you with the extent of my scholarship, but I'm not the mere dilettante you seem to suggest. You have offended my doctoral sensibilities!! Good for Trimpey -- I like his " AA -- surrender to the beast " analysis, a good analogy in the psychological idiom (beast=lower instinctual drives) for the Biblical Beast. Jesus asked " Can Satan cast out Satan? " In AA I see the answer to that as being, " No, but he can sure give you a soft deal if you suck hard enough " . Didn't know Trimpey was a Methodist, which, not entirely incidentally, I am. I don't go to Church these days, though I pray daily, and consider myself an active if somewhat antinomian Xian. Yours Doug. http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >CC: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:43:43 -0400 > > > > >, > >I wasn't quite sure what you were saying in the start of you letter. I >am not concerned with offending anonymous 'group " in your my request for >your being more conscious about the anti Buddhist tone of your response. >I take Eastern thought very seriously, and am personally offended when it >frivolously put down as, " like AA. " Also, as I pointed out in my letter, >Buddhism as long been an influence in my denomination (since the 1850s) >so I also am offended on that level. > >I think that is unfair to link the problems of AA with any world >religion. AA borrowed freely from many sources in formulating the steps. > However, if you read AA history, as unfortunately I have, you find that >most of Bill 's theology was derived from a Christian sect (cult) >called the Oxford Group. Of course it was not traditional Christian >doctrine, but it claimed to be the real Christianity, unlike those staid >and tired mainstream denominations. Some Born Again groups call AA a >cult because the HP is not defined as Jesus Christ, and there is no stand >on the Trinity. One well known Methodist says that AA religion offends >his view of Christianity as well. (Jack Trimpey >www.rational.org/recovery.) So while AA claims deep Christian roots, >Christianity has not universally accepted it by any means. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 , Yeh, She could turn me on any day. She's currently appearing among the sacred objects of our favourite cult at http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html yrs Doug >From: watts_pete@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 23:45:45 -0000 > >--- In 12-step-freeegroups, " douglas houston " ><doug_houston@h...> > > > > > ps attach " 12 step babe " -- she's for real, God help us!!! > >Now thats what I call my drug of choice!!!! > >P. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 , Ha! Cisco! Hah! Pancho!!! - you already been there!! Thanks Doug. http:www.geocities.com/bouglaf >From: watts_pete@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:08:43 -0000 > >Hey Doug > >You are one mad dude pal! > >Tx for the laugh. > >P. > > > > Dear , > > > > Thanks for raising my self-esteem by several points. > > > > You deserve a laugh at > > > > http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html > > > > Yours > > Doug > > > > > > >From: SEAN P CASHIN <uusean@j...> > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > > >To: 12-step-freeegroups > > >CC: 12-step-freeegroups > > >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values > > >Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:27:56 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > >, > > > > > >I really liked your response. thanks for putting so much time >into >it. > > > > > >I want to thank you and this list for your help in my AA withdrawal > > >period. What kind, thoughtful, thinking people we have on this >list. It > > >is a pleasure to be associated with you. > > > > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >__ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Hot date with AA. LOL Re: Re: Core Values Dear , Thanks for raising my self-esteem by several points. You deserve a laugh at http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html Yours Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 , My page has been added as a link by the opposition on the disturbingly offbeat NA pages of Keeley at http://intervention.org/blindedbyscience.htm You can Email Charlie Manson from there -- he's obviously highly regarded by the 12-steppers -- and go to other highly nefarious link-homes!! I hope this case of the purloined web-page is a slight case of " if you can't beat 'em join 'em " . thanks, Yrs, Doug. http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: RE: Re: Core Values >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:47:07 -0500 > >Hot date with AA. LOL > > > Re: Re: Core Values > >Dear , > >Thanks for raising my self-esteem by several points. > >You deserve a laugh at > >http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html > >Yours >Doug > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Hi, , I didn't know the BSA kicked out atheists, and I was a den mother! Of course, the person at issue in the NJ case is a scout leader -- personally I would not accept the judgment of any minor that he was either irrevocably gay or irrevocably atheist. I don't deny that teenagers may come to those conclusions and hold them until death, but others will change, especially, I think, when it comes to atheism. School auditoriums and gyms, where meetings are held, are probably considered public accommodations, though I don't know that for sure. But I would not be surprised if the schools charged rent for these meetings, as, of course, churches do to AA gatherings. In that case, you need not be distressed about your tax dollars. (Could you please reset the date on your PC?) --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > > >, > >I agree with you in on the question of private accommodation. However, >the Boy Scouts should be up front in their beliefs. But you see the >receive funding from groups that aren't anti gay, so they soft peddle >this belief in order not to offend. How many people know they also kick >out atheists? > >The BSA is saying that excludes atheists and gays on religious grounds. >Fine. All I ask is that they are clear about this with all the groups >who they accept funds from. This case may help. I heard, for instance, >that the United Way is reconsidering funding the BS in ?Connecticut. >They are exercising their freedom to fund who they choose. > >Our Unitarian Universalist Assn. no longer cooperates with the Boy Scouts >because of their atheist/gay stance. > >So yes, as long as they are open about their beliefs, the may hold them. >I do resent my gay tax dollars supporting them in any way. Like my >property taxes paying for a public school where they meet fro free. If a >church puts them up, fine. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Now the best and coolest websites come right to you based on your >unique interests. eTour.com is surfing without searching. >And, it's FREE! >http://click./1/3013/1/_/4324/_/956959862/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 Hey Doug Didntya know Charlie M, like Bill W, thought LSD gave you valuable spiritual experiences? Helter Skelter! P. > , > My page has been added as a link by the opposition on the disturbingly > offbeat NA pages of Keeley at > > http://intervention.org/blindedbyscience.htm > > You can Email Charlie Manson from there -- he's obviously highly regarded by > the 12-steppers -- and go to other highly nefarious link-homes!! > I hope this case of the purloined web-page is a slight case of " if you can't > beat 'em join 'em " . > thanks, > Yrs, > Doug. > > http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf > > >From: " Arroyo " <arroyoh@h...> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > >To: <12-step-freeegroups> > >Subject: RE: Re: Core Values > >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:47:07 -0500 > > > >Hot date with AA. LOL > > > > > > Re: Re: Core Values > > > >Dear , > > > >Thanks for raising my self-esteem by several points. > > > >You deserve a laugh at > > > >http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html > > > >Yours > >Doug > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.