Guest guest Posted April 26, 1999 Report Share Posted April 26, 1999 hi Sue, Well I have met atheists in AA who say that while they don't believe in God, they do use the group as a power greater themselves. As a non theist, I don't find these mental gymnastics worth it, but I guess they do. How exactly is a group a higher power? What does this mean? Can't that be dangerous? sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 1999 Report Share Posted April 26, 1999 Hi Doug, As a non theist, it still rubs me the wrong way when the Judeo Christian tradition is used as the standard of good. While IMO the Bible is a great source of myth, it is fair at best in offering moral guidelines. It has been my experience that an openness to global myth is a more complete way to explore goodness and morality. I will admit though that many Christians and Jews are good by humanist values. ( Reversing the sentence shows what I am talking about .) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2000 Report Share Posted March 27, 2000 Actually, it's been pretty well established, now, that that is just another of AA's many cart-loads of crap. ============ sue styd wrote: > > Can someone please explain to me how a person can be an > atheist and and also subscribe to the AA program? > I truly don't understand this. > > Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2000 Report Share Posted March 27, 2000 It seems to me that the courts opinion does not center on any one step, but rather the principal that you can't require someone to put a non-religious interpretation on religious concepts, as AA requires an atheist to do. In this way, the whole micro-analysis of AA becomes unnecessary. =========== > I dont know if those in the know can confirm, but I suspect that Step > 11 is as important as Step 3 in court decisions that the claim AA is > not a religion is horsehit. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2000 Report Share Posted March 27, 2000 Insulting, however, you are. ============ douglas houston wrote: > > I may be nuts but an atheist I ain't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2000 Report Share Posted March 28, 2000 I wouldn't let those nitwits tend my dog let alone my will and life. ==================== douglas houston wrote: > > DEar > The common strategy of making the group the HP is certainly dangerous -- > it's a handing over of your entire volition and morality to a questionable > majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2000 Report Share Posted April 22, 2000 Can someone please explain to me how a person can be an atheist and and also subscribe to the AA program? I truly don't understand this. Sue ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2000 Report Share Posted April 22, 2000 Beats da shit outta me Sue.... They usually claim the " anything can be your Higher Power " argument, despited the fact that as you know the Steps actually say *God*, not Higher Power (which is only said once), from Step 3 onwards. Even more ridiculous, Step 11 says [from memory]: " Sought through prayer and meditiation to improve our conscious contact with God *as we understood Him*, seeking only to be granted knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry it out. " (Emphasis in original). An athiest's understanding of God of course, is that " He " doesn't exist. An athiest might say their " Higher Power " is " human values " or something, but how do you have " conscious contact " with abstract values? and more importantly how can they have a 'will for you' and a the ability to 'grant you power' that you dont already have to achieve things? I dont know if those in the know can confirm, but I suspect that Step 11 is as important as Step 3 in court decisions that the claim AA is not a religion is horsehit. Of course, the determined XA doublethinker can mangle the meanings of these words even further, but if subjected to the same level of metaphorical redefinition you could probably claim that the 12 steps are a recipe for Irish coffee (which perhaps in many senses, it is!). P. P. > > Can someone please explain to me how a person can be an > atheist and and also subscribe to the AA program? > I truly don't understand this. > > Sue > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2000 Report Share Posted April 22, 2000 At 22:53 22/04/00 +0000, you wrote: >Of course, the determined XA doublethinker can mangle the meanings of >these words even further, but if subjected to the same >level of metaphorical redefinition you could probably claim that the >12 steps are a recipe for Irish coffee (which perhaps in many senses, >it is!). > >P. I think you may well be on to something. I am experimentally interpreting the 12 steps as recipes for the following; try it and you'll see how universal they really are (is there no limit to the depth of this thing?)... 1. a most pungent compost 2. reinforcement for concrete structures 3. lip balm 4. the stuff you put on a wound that draws all the poison out 5. a purgative or bowel cleanser 6. a rubber compound for moulding soft body parts in casts 7. embalming material for filling body cavities 8. the stuff that fell as a dust cloud on the cemetery just before all the corpses came out of the ground and started eating the brains of the living 9. Irish coffee 10. some stuff you get out of a tree in Brazil that nobody has heard of that makes you numb all over 11. long molecules synthesised for the purposes of machine knitting 12. a viscous substance that stops your fridge from humming if placed judiciously underneath it Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2000 Report Share Posted April 24, 2000 The eprsoin takes the option that " the group is a higher power than oneself " -- the group becomes HP -- many equally improbable variants occur -- all completing the circuit of solipsistic belief AA needs in adherents. doug > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:26:16 -0500 > >Actually, it's been pretty well established, now, that that is just >another of AA's many cart-loads of crap. >============ >sue styd wrote: > > > > Can someone please explain to me how a person can be an > > atheist and and also subscribe to the AA program? > > I truly don't understand this. > > > > Sue ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2000 Report Share Posted April 24, 2000 The person takes the option that " the group is a higher power than oneself " -- the group becomes HP -- many equally improbable variants occur -- all completing the circuit of solipsistic belief AA needs in adherents. Doug > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:26:16 -0500 > >Actually, it's been pretty well established, now, that that is just >another of AA's many cart-loads of crap. >============ >sue styd wrote: > > > > Can someone please explain to me how a person can be an > > atheist and and also subscribe to the AA program? > > I truly don't understand this. > > > > Sue ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2000 Report Share Posted April 24, 2000 Basically, you've gotta pinch your nose real hard and relying heavily on the " leave the rest " clause. But you'll still be the only African American at the Klan rally. Just be sure to wear your hood and white gloves. > > > > Can someone please explain to me how a person can be an > > atheist and and also subscribe to the AA program? > > I truly don't understand this. > > > > Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2000 Report Share Posted April 24, 2000 I may be nuts but an atheist I ain't > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:32:59 -0000 > >Basically, you've gotta pinch your nose real hard and relying heavily >on the " leave the rest " clause. But you'll still be the only African >American at the Klan rally. Just be sure to wear your hood and white >gloves. > > > > > > > > > > Can someone please explain to me how a person can be an > > > atheist and and also subscribe to the AA program? > > > I truly don't understand this. > > > > > > Sue > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 Yes, I agree. The group of drunks thing always seemed weak, kind of like " baby steps " to the " true " HP the program prods you toward. Taking the supernatural out of it for a moment, then & assuming I was to make the group my HP makes the program even more problematic to me IMO. As I have mentioned before, my errors in life had often come from a position of abdicating/accomodating/pleasing others, not from arrogance, anger and self-will [that all came later, as I started to get better] I do believe that the very act of intention is powerful, whether we call it prayer, meditation, wishing, visualization, etc, it can have results. IMO, my unconscious agendas ruled my decisions in the past and kept me from taking the reins of my life. My active intention to right that has led to an awakening to my life and those around me. It matters little to me who wants to take credit for that - my pantheistic view calls for inclusion. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >CC: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:41:11 -0400 > > > >, > >What you say is what atheists are told, but I think in practice the whole >thing falls a part. First, I think that turning my life over to a group >of drunks sounds completely mad. Some in the group have never breathed a >sober moment, and will invite me to get high. There will be assorted >well meaning types who honestly want to help, but turn my life and will >over to them? I think not. I man all of this sounds nice in theory, but >I consider it very dangerous in practice. While in the first week or two >sober after years of heavy use, I agree it may help to have people in >your life who are less foggy to help one find their away around the world >without chemicals In fact therapy or vocational rehabilitation may be in >order. Group therapy or an organization like SMART may come in handy >also. But the goal is to learn how to think and how to handle one's >life, not to " turn it over " to others. > >I do understand that a certain kind of religious person may feel that God >(hp) got them sober or keeps them sober. But is it safe to entrust >abstinence to any group, drunks or otherwise. And then there are >religious types who don't believe that God gets involved in sobriety. >They may stay sober for God, but it is they that get and keep themselves >sober. > >The line about my best thinking has always irked me. Yes, in fact, since >abstinence is my goal, it is in fact my best thinking that will keep me >sober. There is nobody, IMO, I repeat nobody that can do the job for me. > > >I guess this is why I still consider AA faith healing. An exterior force >(AA, the group) will do what you cannot do. Believe that you can't stay >sober and you will prove yourself right. Believe they can get and keep >you sober and for a small percentage this will be a self fulfilling >prophesy as well. >I would think though that faith healing is not likely even fro the >devout. Doubt can enter at anytime. Faith in God fails, group members >let you down. Unless you have learned how to think for yourself and act >for yourself, you're screwed. > >So to finish this rambling post, I still feel that " turning " your life >over to a " group of drunks " is a dangerous and vague proposition. Few >are the atheists, even drinking or otherwise who will suspend their >reason in order to " let the miracle happen. " Better to dry up and get on >with living. Any other road, in my personal experience as well as >opinion is a recipe for disaster. Unless you can " take the leap of >faith, " and accept that God (group of drunks) is doing fro you what you >cannot do for yourself. I think it is small wonder that so many non >religious turn to RR, SMART and SOS where you can have your life and live >it too. > >All the best, > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 Gee, Doug, you can gift-wrap that insult as pretty as you like, but all of the PeaceLove & Understanding buffers you can come up with don't remove the sting of that insult. -eth > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:14:28 GMT > >Dear , >Respect, brother -- I favour " the other way round " , as younput it -- i.e. >our " humanist " values are , upon close examination, embarrassed by being >derived very largely from Judaeo-Xian teaching -- surely the highest values >of human love are inscribed most clearly and irrefutably in the Life and >Works of JC? But I'm not exclusive -- I believe that letter killeth but >the >spirit giveth life -- AA and all other forms of Nazism are strictly the >letter; someone professing atheism who does loving works and makes life >easier for others in doing the work of the spirit while denying the letter. >Anyway, God only knows what's acceptable in His sight. I just hgappen to >think that, like the 12-steps, atheism can be an " off the peg " answer for >some people -- just seems like a good idea and they lack either the will or >the brains to think further. We all like what suits us. Anyway, I believe >in God, but not " as I understand Him " -- that's the God you make up to live >the fiction and fallacy of AA -- God may understand me (I've damned if I >do!!), but that's His business. Sorry if I've come on inappropriately >about >atheism -- we're in this together and I wouldn't wish to be counted out >because of my archaic belief in the Almighty. Wish to relate, not compete. >Love. Peace. Thanks. >Doug. > > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > >To: 12-step-freeegroups > >CC: 12-step-freeegroups > >Subject: Re: atheist AA > >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:23:51 -0400 > > > > > > > >Hi Doug, > > > >As a non theist, it still rubs me the wrong way when the Judeo Christian > >tradition is used as the standard of good. While IMO the Bible is a > >great source of myth, it is fair at best in offering moral guidelines. > >It has been my experience that an openness to global myth is a more > >complete way to explore goodness and morality. I will admit though that > >many Christians and Jews are good by humanist values. ( Reversing the > >sentence shows what I am talking about > > > >.) > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 Dear , Respect, brother -- I favour " the other way round " , as younput it -- i.e. our " humanist " values are , upon close examination, embarrassed by being derived very largely from Judaeo-Xian teaching -- surely the highest values of human love are inscribed most clearly and irrefutably in the Life and Works of JC? But I'm not exclusive -- I believe that letter killeth but the spirit giveth life -- AA and all other forms of Nazism are strictly the letter; someone professing atheism who does loving works and makes life easier for others in doing the work of the spirit while denying the letter. Anyway, God only knows what's acceptable in His sight. I just hgappen to think that, like the 12-steps, atheism can be an " off the peg " answer for some people -- just seems like a good idea and they lack either the will or the brains to think further. We all like what suits us. Anyway, I believe in God, but not " as I understand Him " -- that's the God you make up to live the fiction and fallacy of AA -- God may understand me (I've damned if I do!!), but that's His business. Sorry if I've come on inappropriately about atheism -- we're in this together and I wouldn't wish to be counted out because of my archaic belief in the Almighty. Wish to relate, not compete. Love. Peace. Thanks. Doug. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >CC: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:23:51 -0400 > > > >Hi Doug, > >As a non theist, it still rubs me the wrong way when the Judeo Christian >tradition is used as the standard of good. While IMO the Bible is a >great source of myth, it is fair at best in offering moral guidelines. >It has been my experience that an openness to global myth is a more >complete way to explore goodness and morality. I will admit though that >many Christians and Jews are good by humanist values. ( Reversing the >sentence shows what I am talking about > >.) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 DEar The common strategy of making the group the HP is certainly dangerous -- it's a handing over of your entire volition and morality to a questionable majority. The group will say " leave your husband " , " quit your job " , can run your life on lines of their choiuce -- group as HP is the surest way to 12-step brain-death, but for many who can't use any other version of " god " , it's the way. D. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >CC: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:47:46 -0400 > > > >hi Sue, > >Well I have met atheists in AA who say that while they don't believe in >God, they do use the group as a power greater themselves. As a non >theist, I don't find these mental gymnastics worth it, but I guess they >do. How exactly is a group a higher power? What does this mean? Can't >that be dangerous? > >sean ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 --- >I was told that HP can be anything, as long as it isn't you. (with the >assumption that using yourself as your HP is what got you in trouble in the >first place). I guess that the supposedly therapeutic effect of >relinquishing the driver's seat of your life to a HP is supposed to happen >regardless of what you decide to imagine taking over for you. So using the >group as one's HP (G-roup O-f D-runks) was encouraged for atheists - " they >have been able to get sober & you haven't so they have power you don't ... " > > --------------------------- The trouble with this is, how do you do the steps involving " Humbly asked God(HP) to remove our shortcomings/ defects of character " -- is a " group of drunks " going to do that?? And the infamous Step 11 -- an atheist is going to PRAY to a " group of drunks " ?? I tell you what, the very fact that they say " HP " can be anything including a tree, a doorknob, or that " group of drunks " makes step 11 an instruction to engage in idolatry -- repulsive to most religions, and certainly not the same as atheism! ~Rita p.s. that puerile acronism for G-O-D would only work in 3 of the hundreds of 12-step cult groups -- AA, Debtors Anonymous ( " Group of Debtors " ) and Diabetics Anonymous ( " Group of Diabetics " ). What ridiculous acronysm do the others use for their " atheist " members? --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 Rita is right -- AA is a cesspool of infantile idolatory. Doug. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 04:14:40 -0700 > > > >--- > > > > >I was told that HP can be anything, as long as it isn't you. (with the > >assumption that using yourself as your HP is what got you in trouble in >the > >first place). I guess that the supposedly therapeutic effect of > >relinquishing the driver's seat of your life to a HP is supposed to >happen > >regardless of what you decide to imagine taking over for you. So using >the > >group as one's HP (G-roup O-f D-runks) was encouraged for atheists - > " they > >have been able to get sober & you haven't so they have power you don't >... " > > > > >--------------------------- > > The trouble with this is, how do you do the steps involving " Humbly >asked God(HP) to remove our shortcomings/ defects of character " -- is a > " group of drunks " going to do that?? And the infamous Step 11 -- an >atheist is going to PRAY to a " group of drunks " ?? I tell you what, the >very fact that they say " HP " can be anything including a tree, a doorknob, >or that " group of drunks " makes step 11 an instruction to engage in >idolatry -- repulsive to most religions, and certainly not the same as >atheism! > >~Rita > >p.s. that puerile acronism for G-O-D would only work in 3 of the hundreds >of 12-step cult groups -- AA, Debtors Anonymous ( " Group of Debtors " ) and >Diabetics Anonymous ( " Group of Diabetics " ). What ridiculous acronysm do >the others use for their " atheist " members? > > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Before you buy. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 G-ood O-rderly D-irection. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 04:14:40 Railroad Rita wrote, inter alia: > >p.s. that puerile acronism for G-O-D would only work in 3 of the hundreds of 12-step cult groups -- AA, Debtors Anonymous ( " Group of Debtors " ) and Diabetics Anonymous ( " Group of Diabetics " ). What ridiculous acronysm do the others use for their " atheist " members? --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 > Yeh, Jan a lot in common -- our lives messed up more by AA totalitarianism > than using or boozing could manage. This is my experience also, Doug. I know it's not like this for everyone, and some people's lives truly are devastated by drug and alcohol use. This mailing list is the only place I feel really comfortable exercising my first amendment right to free speech, saying the truth of what happened to me. But I'm slowly getting to the point where I can tolerate the inevitable knee-jerk reactions: you're in denial. if AA didn't work for you, it's because you're morally inferior. you're the problem. I would have to say that's what true recovery feels like to me: the ability to hear someone say, " you're not what you think you are, you're what *I* think you are, " without feeling like I have a moral responsibility to totally throw out my own sense of my identity in favor of their sense of my identity. if that makes any sense. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 Dear Judith, You have a good criterion for " true recovery " as far as I'm concerned. My own reaction to the dogma, the double edged sword of AA's " but you've got a disease/but you're morally inferior for not taking responsibility for it " , is plain confidence that they're at least wrong and quite possibly evil. My problem with my wife is I have to either blame the stepNazis and her as one for her selfish behaviour in ruining our family, or regard her as a completely amoral/immoral airhead, for whom the steps are merely a good " moral cover story " . It really is like she was two different people, a loving, kind, and sympathetic wife, and a terrifyingly dogmatic and abusive bitch -- when she went back to AA/NA full time she quite simply became full-time the latter version of herself. I've got problems here, Judith, that can eat my life from the inside out, but I go on and get by and thank God for the strength to do so. Meeting this group is a real event in my life -- like you, I find it a wonderful forum for free speech and have no cause to be ashamed or withold on anything. Best wishes, Yours, Doug. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:36:21 -0000 > > > > Yeh, Jan a lot in common -- our lives messed up more by AA >totalitarianism > > than using or boozing could manage. > >This is my experience also, Doug. I know it's not like this for >everyone, and some people's lives truly are devastated by drug and >alcohol use. This mailing list is the only place I feel really >comfortable exercising my first amendment right to free speech, >saying >the truth of what happened to me. > >But I'm slowly getting to the point where I can tolerate the >inevitable knee-jerk reactions: you're in denial. if AA didn't work >for you, it's because you're morally inferior. you're the problem. I >would have to say that's what true recovery feels like to me: the >ability to hear someone say, " you're not what you think you are, >you're what *I* think you are, " without feeling like I have a moral >responsibility to totally throw out my own sense of my identity in >favor of their sense of my identity. > >if that makes any sense. > >judith > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 -----Original Message----- >Dear People, > >On the perennial topic of AA/religion, do you know > >wwww.churchofgodanonymous Why, yes we do. In fact the founder and possibly sole member of that organization drops in and exchanges views with us right here on 12-step-free, from time to time! The whole thing seems like a great <yawn> to me. Nothing original about it. Plus I don't see much evidence on 'their' website that anything exists in the real world. Notice how it says 'groups are forming' in various states and lists a few anonymous 'spiritual leaders' who WILL LEAD groups. For all we know, the 'spiritual leaders' are just pranking the founder via e-mail, or maybe they are looking to acquire a 'ministerial license' so they can dodge taxes. --wally > >? >These are real spooks -- explicitly straight out of AA -- founder is >12stepKing -- REAL spooks -- read on into their stuff and you'll find their >Nazi cold-bloodedness when it comes to social philosophy, etc. (Their >philsophy is identical to thast expressed by the " matter of fact " " don't >believe any of that crap " line the Satanists are now dishing up . . . Sure >it must be a good idea to kill people who won't take responsibility for >their recoveries, stands to reason, don't it . . is about where they're at >between the lines). If people say AA is not a religion show them this site, >which should close the debate with anyone reasonable. It's a hideous >travesty of religion, and as a Chritian I think " the God of AA " and the God >I worship are UTTERLY distinct. Those who go down the AA path of " any God >will do " are heading in one direction theologically, hellwards, and satan >is the guy behind the liberal mask of " worship who/what you like -- yeh why >not your sponsors a*hole, --. >Rant rave rant -- but this " Church of God Anonymous " is the BENDIN END. >AA does effect what Bill W. with Jung's help called a " massive emotional >displacement " -- it displaces self-doubt etc with morally lethal doses of >approval and high pressure self-esteem so you're displaced into an ecstasy >of ignorant self-righteousness. It works if you work it!! >Doug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 VERY, VERY good poetry! I'm very impressed! I love it! Have you published? (These are definitely keepers.) --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Dear , >I knew next to nothing about AA before I was advised to go in 1985 during a >hard time when my drinking was becoming conspicuous. By my brother actually >(who subsequently went, very briefly, to meetings himself and now regards >the whole bit as a no-no). >I was high on the steps and on meeting my stepBunny wife for the first >couple of months, but read a book called " Controlled Drinking " which caused >me to question the fellowship. She was about to leave me at this point for >doubting the AAword (she uttered divorce threats at three monthly intervals >throughout our marriage). >I wasn't drinking or using -- 100% clean nicotine addict throughout. After >1 year I tried to begin moderate drinking, but she freaked out totally and >left me. Came back only when I agreed to go into Treatment. It was in >treatment that I finally chucked the whole bit, or rather shortly after >coming out -- the bullshit I heard in there was unbelievable. My wife is >also a " trained " Minnesota Counsellor -- there's a big sick scene in quiet >West Wales where we lived and she still does centring on " recovery.org.uk " . > Hopkins is supporting them, a big Welsh name. >Anyway, she fully expected me to do instant relapse etc, but nothing >happened. I drank moderately for eight years, can of beer about nine in the >evening and that was all. Ocaasional more serious indulgence, but only when >I was away on a climbing trip or otherwise out of sight. We had a strongly >monogamous marriage and a sex life to die for. But always the phantom of >the fellowship in the cupoboard at the back of her head. >By nine years of marriage she's big in Coda and not going to AA/NA -- so she >decides we can start smoking dope. (Also comes out with some weird stuff >amounting to how she knows the really top recovery people do have the odd >toot, tipple, and toke -- have any of you heard this?) Great. We smoke >dope. She decides we gotta stop smoking dope. She got some form of bad >trip from her intense highs. Worth dwelling on this perhaps -- her main > " bad past " stuff is in the amazing promiscuity she did in the late 1970s -- >real pincushion -- she had been abused as a child. So she was unstable in >our sex life. For months she'd want it dirty, then suddenly call a " no no " . > Back to good clean none of that nonsense please. The nonsense often >involved fantasies she began. She was scared of her own eroticism, and her >terror of drinking was partly that if she did she KNEW she'd start screwing >around. The two things are synonymous with her. With cannabis, our sex >life was amazing -- not " dirty " especially, but a powerful experience alll >round. It was because of her problem with her powerful sexuality that she >got panicky and had to stop smoking. Back to meetings in freak-out and born >again total abstinence = the END for us and the kids. Anyway, the poor >bloody woman has always been too scared to move an inch and had a >pathological need to have the whole family do everything her way. We went >through several failed business ventures together to promote her work as an >artists. She is a good artist (and I'm a good poet) but she always had to >be in the driving seat. Sort of monomania that the steps only encourage. >Anyway, now she's clean and serene and the queen of the scene and has some >newcomer trailing along as Mr Stable Relationship. " Hi this is Mr Stable >Relationship, not he's not an oxymoron, he's on programme " . My kids say he's >a fat loser, but I bet you he's workiung them steps like nobody's business >to keep snug up with NAhotstuff!!! >Love and peace and death to stepNazis >Doug. > >p.s. attaching poems touching on my obsession/the subject -- you asked for >it!!!! > > ORGONAUTS > >The trouble is we entered outer space, >Came through to somewhere neither dark nor light, >Then slept, to wake and let the world take place. > >We didn't hurry so we lost the race >And got dismissed to different states of night; >The trouble is we entered outer space > >Together, not infrequently, the base >Where one thing in our lives was always right, >Then slept to wake and let the world take place. > >Your subtle, my conspicuous, disgrace >Estrange us from what instincts might invite; >The trouble is we entered outer space, > >Flew up through time's dissolving carapace, >Got, cognitively speaking, out of sight, >Then slept, to wake and let the world take place. > >Out there we turn, disclose a single face >That won't come back and doesn't look contrite; >The trouble is we entered outer space, >Then slept, to wake and let the world take place. > >CONTACT > >Sad day, a patch where I crouch >Fixed to the spot where the warmth was, >Choking on the longing to swap >Forgivenesses with you, >Not to have to watch the baby die, >To see what really matters now >Making distance, passing me by. > >Quite far into the life without you, >Somewhere else where we turn to meet >By coincidence at a crossing of streets, >And the world of loss >Is as real as the charge >The connection sparks with >Till you switch it off. > >Places we are, coming into being >When the hurt's so big >And the stake's so wild >On the one bet of your life, >And all the other ways we could be >Just by choosing differently >Are there beside us like the dead we love. > > >DORA, or, Deadly Orgone Radiation. > > > " A bad conscience creates malignant behaviour. You make somebody else bad in >order to free yourself from responsibility. We call that the Emotional >Plague. " -- > > Wilhelm Reich. > > >She loves you, of course, wants you to be >The special woman who deserves the best, >Not this kitchen blotched with damp and grease, >The dirt settled on skirtings, and a man >Whose disapproval's your worst enemy. > >So she's killing your marriage. The half-life >Of her transuranic emotions seeds the air >With minute black specks, a swaying spawn, >Your mind and his its jelly, a bad drift >In worsening weather, falling pressure. > >When she comes back you'll tell her >How you dumped him out past the swamps >After giving him one last fuck, >Left him falling into the ending, >Lost in a great slaughter of starlings. > > > >On the Beach II > >Surf rushing back through banked shingle >Is you withdrawing from the world >As I recall between thrown stones >We turn in separate orbits now. > >Systole and diastole, ebb, flow, >Consciousness registered as loss >Resuming traffic with the day >Then falling into all you're not. > >I call this life, my children too, >The reasons vague and all your own, >A wind that's shifting on the sand, >Some process that you're going through. > >I go on cancelling contempt, >It doesn't suit, it will not do, >Especially when it's object's you, >For whom my love is always new. > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Do you love your Mother? >Click Here >http://click./1/3652/1/_/4324/_/956749125/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. 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Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 Dear Kayleigh, Thank you very much, you've made my day! I have published (I think Amazon have got some of my stuff) and have a third book coming out soon, " The Welsh Book of the Dead " (a title about which I've got mixed feelings). The forthcoming book is dominated by love-lorn stuff centering on the protracted break up with my dear benighted 12-step wife. I'm to close to the centre of it still too know how I feel about the poetry and I keep a low profile about some of it for the same reasons. The stuff you saw was all in that category, so I'm especially glad to hear you liked it. Also glad to hear from you, as, after getting utterly bombed with Emails flying around the group, it's been a very slow day in comparison. Thought maybe I'd been struck off for being an argumentative loony or something (which would come as no surprise -- I have my suspicions). Well, thanks again -- I'll post a bit more verse at some point perhaps, but I don't want ot turn the group into my self-publishing venture! Yours, . p.s. The quote from W. Reich with " Dora " seems to fit XA very well indeed. http://geocities.com/bouglaf > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: atheist AA >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:57:22 -0700 > >VERY, VERY good poetry! I'm very impressed! I love it! > >Have you published? (These are definitely keepers.) >--- >Kayleigh > > Zz > zZ > |\ z _,,,---,,_ > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > > > > >Dear , > >I knew next to nothing about AA before I was advised to go in 1985 during >a > >hard time when my drinking was becoming conspicuous. By my brother >actually > >(who subsequently went, very briefly, to meetings himself and now regards > >the whole bit as a no-no). > >I was high on the steps and on meeting my stepBunny wife for the first > >couple of months, but read a book called " Controlled Drinking " which >caused > >me to question the fellowship. She was about to leave me at this point >for > >doubting the AAword (she uttered divorce threats at three monthly >intervals > >throughout our marriage). > >I wasn't drinking or using -- 100% clean nicotine addict throughout. >After > >1 year I tried to begin moderate drinking, but she freaked out totally >and > >left me. Came back only when I agreed to go into Treatment. It was in > >treatment that I finally chucked the whole bit, or rather shortly after > >coming out -- the bullshit I heard in there was unbelievable. My wife is > >also a " trained " Minnesota Counsellor -- there's a big sick scene in >quiet > >West Wales where we lived and she still does centring on > " recovery.org.uk " . > > Hopkins is supporting them, a big Welsh name. > >Anyway, she fully expected me to do instant relapse etc, but nothing > >happened. I drank moderately for eight years, can of beer about nine in >the > >evening and that was all. Ocaasional more serious indulgence, but only >when > >I was away on a climbing trip or otherwise out of sight. We had a >strongly > >monogamous marriage and a sex life to die for. But always the phantom of > >the fellowship in the cupoboard at the back of her head. > >By nine years of marriage she's big in Coda and not going to AA/NA -- so >she > >decides we can start smoking dope. (Also comes out with some weird stuff > >amounting to how she knows the really top recovery people do have the odd > >toot, tipple, and toke -- have any of you heard this?) Great. We smoke > >dope. She decides we gotta stop smoking dope. She got some form of bad > >trip from her intense highs. Worth dwelling on this perhaps -- her main > > " bad past " stuff is in the amazing promiscuity she did in the late 1970s >-- > >real pincushion -- she had been abused as a child. So she was unstable in > >our sex life. For months she'd want it dirty, then suddenly call a " no >no " . > > Back to good clean none of that nonsense please. The nonsense often > >involved fantasies she began. She was scared of her own eroticism, and >her > >terror of drinking was partly that if she did she KNEW she'd start >screwing > >around. The two things are synonymous with her. With cannabis, our sex > >life was amazing -- not " dirty " especially, but a powerful experience >alll > >round. It was because of her problem with her powerful sexuality that >she > >got panicky and had to stop smoking. Back to meetings in freak-out and >born > >again total abstinence = the END for us and the kids. Anyway, the >poor > >bloody woman has always been too scared to move an inch and had a > >pathological need to have the whole family do everything her way. We >went > >through several failed business ventures together to promote her work as >an > >artists. She is a good artist (and I'm a good poet) but she always had >to > >be in the driving seat. Sort of monomania that the steps only encourage. > >Anyway, now she's clean and serene and the queen of the scene and has >some > >newcomer trailing along as Mr Stable Relationship. " Hi this is Mr Stable > >Relationship, not he's not an oxymoron, he's on programme " . My kids say >he's > >a fat loser, but I bet you he's workiung them steps like nobody's >business > >to keep snug up with NAhotstuff!!! > >Love and peace and death to stepNazis > >Doug. > > > >p.s. attaching poems touching on my obsession/the subject -- you asked >for > >it!!!! > > > > ORGONAUTS > > > >The trouble is we entered outer space, > >Came through to somewhere neither dark nor light, > >Then slept, to wake and let the world take place. > > > >We didn't hurry so we lost the race > >And got dismissed to different states of night; > >The trouble is we entered outer space > > > >Together, not infrequently, the base > >Where one thing in our lives was always right, > >Then slept to wake and let the world take place. > > > >Your subtle, my conspicuous, disgrace > >Estrange us from what instincts might invite; > >The trouble is we entered outer space, > > > >Flew up through time's dissolving carapace, > >Got, cognitively speaking, out of sight, > >Then slept, to wake and let the world take place. > > > >Out there we turn, disclose a single face > >That won't come back and doesn't look contrite; > >The trouble is we entered outer space, > >Then slept, to wake and let the world take place. > > > >CONTACT > > > >Sad day, a patch where I crouch > >Fixed to the spot where the warmth was, > >Choking on the longing to swap > >Forgivenesses with you, > >Not to have to watch the baby die, > >To see what really matters now > >Making distance, passing me by. > > > >Quite far into the life without you, > >Somewhere else where we turn to meet > >By coincidence at a crossing of streets, > >And the world of loss > >Is as real as the charge > >The connection sparks with > >Till you switch it off. > > > >Places we are, coming into being > >When the hurt's so big > >And the stake's so wild > >On the one bet of your life, > >And all the other ways we could be > >Just by choosing differently > >Are there beside us like the dead we love. > > > > > >DORA, or, Deadly Orgone Radiation. > > > > > > " A bad conscience creates malignant behaviour. You make somebody else bad >in > >order to free yourself from responsibility. We call that the Emotional > >Plague. " -- > > > > Wilhelm Reich. > > > > > >She loves you, of course, wants you to be > >The special woman who deserves the best, > >Not this kitchen blotched with damp and grease, > >The dirt settled on skirtings, and a man > >Whose disapproval's your worst enemy. > > > >So she's killing your marriage. The half-life > >Of her transuranic emotions seeds the air > >With minute black specks, a swaying spawn, > >Your mind and his its jelly, a bad drift > >In worsening weather, falling pressure. > > > >When she comes back you'll tell her > >How you dumped him out past the swamps > >After giving him one last fuck, > >Left him falling into the ending, > >Lost in a great slaughter of starlings. > > > > > > > >On the Beach II > > > >Surf rushing back through banked shingle > >Is you withdrawing from the world > >As I recall between thrown stones > >We turn in separate orbits now. > > > >Systole and diastole, ebb, flow, > >Consciousness registered as loss > >Resuming traffic with the day > >Then falling into all you're not. > > > >I call this life, my children too, > >The reasons vague and all your own, > >A wind that's shifting on the sand, > >Some process that you're going through. > > > >I go on cancelling contempt, > >It doesn't suit, it will not do, > >Especially when it's object's you, > >For whom my love is always new. > > > > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Do you love your Mother? > >Click Here > >http://click./1/3652/1/_/4324/_/956749125/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Before you buy. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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