Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

June 1, 2000

" Arroyo " wrote:

> ---------------------------------------------

> Attachment:

> MIME Type: multipart/alternative

> ---------------------------------------------

Charlene:

Never really connected powerlessness with the beginning of depression

and with my personal background that amazes me.

I'm stickin to your story to.

Re: AA and suicide

I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

from birth

to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

That's

why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

who

expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

maked a

d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning,

if not

the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Charlene

Hi Welcome to my Mind,

I think that the people who go to twelve step have a history of poor education

and poor family supports. I generally think they have not achieved at school,

are prone to superstitious thinking and have a desperate need not to be left

alone. They have not learned to be comfortable with themselves. They have not

reflected. They were probably hard living from a relatively young age and had

little structure or guidance. They may have been neglected. The others who

attend by mandated means are representative of the general population.

Drinkers and non drinkers are the same people psychopathological means so I'm

talking about those who seek and choose AA.

Brain empty,

Cheers,

Carol

____________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

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June 4, 2000

I disagree also. The people I knew well in AA included 2 former university

professors with PhD's, one of whom had gone from academia to a successful

career in MIS management, a man who had been making $3000/week in sales

commissions in the 1950's, several business executives, a couple of lawyers,

and a number of very intelligent and/or creative people who never amounted

to much before they quit drinking and drugging. They were not unduly

superstitious unless you count their religious and AA beliefs as undue

superstitions.

To characterize AA members as uneducated and superstitious is to

under-estimate the power and attractiveness of the program. No one is safe!

--wally

Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>I disagree with the statement " the people who go to twelve step have a

>history of poor education

>and poor family supports. I generally think they have not achieved at

>school,

>are prone to superstitious thinking and have a desperate need not to be

left

>alone. They have not learned to be comfortable with themselves. They have

>not

>reflected. They were probably hard living from a relatively young age and

>had

>little structure or guidance. They may have been neglected. The others who

>attend by mandated means are representative of the general population.

>Drinkers and non drinkers are the same people psychopathological means so

>I'm

>talking about those who seek and choose AA. " .

>

>This was not so with me. Appropriate alternative help was not available

>and, in desperation, I resorted to the AA program. The people " in charge "

>of it in this region exerted a lot of " power and control " over anyone

>seeking help with the alcoholic in their lives. I was suspicious of

>anything that kept people isolated and denied free thinking.

>

>I have an education, one masters and am working on another. I have been

>comfortable with myself for a long time, in fact, I prefer being alone or

>with minimal people around me....I am an artist and need private time to

>create out of my own chaos. I certainly wasn't neglected as a child...my

>parents read to me and included me in all family activities, yet I allowed

>myself to get sucked into this cultist belief system by not paying

attention

>to my intuition. My life with my husband was crazy, he had gone nuts and

no

>shrink or religion could really help...anymore than AA did in the end.

>

>What is your meaning of " psychopathological " ? That all persons who go down

>this path are of the same ilk?

>

>Carol Salo

June 5, 2000

I don't think that the people who go to AA are any more smarter or

dumber than the general population. I am not sure if I believe that

personality types who grasp the " AA message " almost immediately, as

opposed to those who take a long time to get into it, or who never buy

into it, is based on the person's intellegience. I think it is based

more on emotional state.

I do agree that many people before coming to AA have not utilized their

brain in what society would consider an appropriate manner. Then of

course, there is the effects of alcohol and drugs used over a long

period of time that makes it harder for an alcoholic to achieve.

(Short term memory was something I had a real difficult time with even

after years from a drug or a drink.) Fortunately, the damage that was

done to the brain cells was not serious enough to hinder me in my

pursuit of an education.

In my on case, when I got sober at 30 years old I had college credits

from 3 different universities but no degree. Succeeding in an academic

environment did wonders for my self esteem. I realized that since my

grades and degrees showed I wasn't the stupid, person I always believed

I was, it allowed me to extrapolate to other areas of my life and see

that the negative voices in other areas were also lies based on a lot of

what happened to me in my early childhood.

Originally Mikena@...

I disagree also. The people I knew well in AA included 2 former university

professors with PhD's, one of whom had gone from academia to a successful

career in MIS management, a man who had been making $3000/week in sales

commissions in the 1950's, several business executives, a couple of lawyers,

and a number of very intelligent and/or creative people who never amounted

to much before they quit drinking and drugging. They were not unduly

superstitious unless you count their religious and AA beliefs as undue

superstitions.

To characterize AA members as uneducated and superstitious is to

under-estimate the power and attractiveness of the program. No one is safe!

--wally

Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>I disagree with the statement " the people who go to twelve step have a

>history of poor education

>and poor family supports. I generally think they have not achieved at

>school,

>are prone to superstitious thinking and have a desperate need not to be

left

>alone. They have not learned to be comfortable with themselves. They have

>not

>reflected. They were probably hard living from a relatively young age and

>had

>little structure or guidance. They may have been neglected. The others who

>attend by mandated means are representative of the general population.

>Drinkers and non drinkers are the same people psychopathological means so

>I'm

>talking about those who seek and choose AA. " .

>

>This was not so with me. Appropriate alternative help was not available

>and, in desperation, I resorted to the AA program. The people " in charge "

>of it in this region exerted a lot of " power and control " over anyone

>seeking help with the alcoholic in their lives. I was suspicious of

>anything that kept people isolated and denied free thinking.

>

>I have an education, one masters and am working on another. I have been

>comfortable with myself for a long time, in fact, I prefer being alone or

>with minimal people around me....I am an artist and need private time to

>create out of my own chaos. I certainly wasn't neglected as a child...my

>parents read to me and included me in all family activities, yet I allowed

>myself to get sucked into this cultist belief system by not paying

attention

>to my intuition. My life with my husband was crazy, he had gone nuts and

no

>shrink or religion could really help...anymore than AA did in the end.

>

>What is your meaning of " psychopathological " ? That all persons who go down

>this path are of the same ilk?

>

>Carol Salo

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June 5, 2000

I disagree with the statement " the people who go to twelve step have a

history of poor education

and poor family supports. I generally think they have not achieved at

school,

are prone to superstitious thinking and have a desperate need not to be left

alone. They have not learned to be comfortable with themselves. They have

not

reflected. They were probably hard living from a relatively young age and

had

little structure or guidance. They may have been neglected. The others who

attend by mandated means are representative of the general population.

Drinkers and non drinkers are the same people psychopathological means so

I'm

talking about those who seek and choose AA. " .

This was not so with me. Appropriate alternative help was not available

and, in desperation, I resorted to the AA program. The people " in charge "

of it in this region exerted a lot of " power and control " over anyone

seeking help with the alcoholic in their lives. I was suspicious of

anything that kept people isolated and denied free thinking.

I have an education, one masters and am working on another. I have been

comfortable with myself for a long time, in fact, I prefer being alone or

with minimal people around me....I am an artist and need private time to

create out of my own chaos. I certainly wasn't neglected as a child...my

parents read to me and included me in all family activities, yet I allowed

myself to get sucked into this cultist belief system by not paying attention

to my intuition. My life with my husband was crazy, he had gone nuts and no

shrink or religion could really help...anymore than AA did in the end.

What is your meaning of " psychopathological " ? That all persons who go down

this path are of the same ilk?

Carol Salo

Re: AA and suicide

I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

from birth

to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

That's

why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

who

expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

maked a

d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning,

if not

the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Charlene

Hi Welcome to my Mind,

I think that

Brain empty,

Cheers,

Carol

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June 5, 2000

This is kinda funny. Why would people drawn into AA have less

education than say, Christians or Jews or Muslims or anybody who

believes all that hocus pocus in the Bible or Tora or Koran or

whatever else? I wonder how many people on this list believe in God?

I do worry that my association with AA will lead me down the path of

believing in nothing. Whatever is good about AA is because of the

people involved taking up the steps and principles. Whatever is bad

is

probably from the same thing.

The group I belong to is really into action -- play softball, call

people up, go out for coffee -- whatever you do don't sit home

contemplating your navel. The difference from regular life is that

people understand that folks coming around off of drinking or drug

problems need help to get involved. You think you can't do anything

without using so you gotta get some help from your friends to see

that

you can have fun and interact with people without mind altering

substances.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a perfect atheist. I get down on my knees

and express gratitude for the people in my life, etc. But I know that

no matter how much you pray -- nobody is gonna reach down their hand

to do a damned thing from the sky. If that was true then what about

all the starving people in the world. i think for me it's a why of

being quiet and having some perspective and gratitude..just rambling.

k

>

> > ---------------------------------------------

> > Attachment:

> > MIME Type: multipart/alternative

> > ---------------------------------------------

> Charlene:

>

> Never really connected powerlessness with the beginning of

depression

> and with my personal background that amazes me.

>

> I'm stickin to your story to.

>

> Re: AA and suicide

>

> I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

> from birth

> to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

> That's

> why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

> who

> expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

> maked a

> d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

> Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

>

> Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning,

> if not

> the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

>

> That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

>

> Charlene

>

> Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> I think that

> Brain empty,

> Cheers,

> Carol

>

> ____________________________________________________________________

> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> http://webmail.netscape.com.

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June 5, 2000

Hey Janice,

Sorry if I made you defensive. I guess I was trying to make a

point. I doubt that most people will have a problem with you

believing

in God. Most people do. It's not spontaneous, though, like it was

back

in the day before people knew how things worked. Back in the day it

rained and people wondered why. They thought God did it. Now we know

why it rains so alot more effort has to go into getting people to

think stuff is happening through some all knowing higher power deal.

Maybe my point was going towards an idea that even folks in this

group aren't making all that radical of a departure from AA. It seems

that if folks relied less on the whole God or Higher Power deal in AA

then perhaps the human beings in the groups would have to be more

accountable for their actions.

sorry for rambling

k

> > >

> > > > ---------------------------------------------

> > > > Attachment:

> > > > MIME Type: multipart/alternative

> > > > ---------------------------------------------

> > > Charlene:

> > >

> > > Never really connected powerlessness with the beginning of

> > depression

> > > and with my personal background that amazes me.

> > >

> > > I'm stickin to your story to.

> > >

> > > Re: AA and suicide

> > >

> > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are

brainwashed

> > > from birth

> > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a

" God " .

> > > That's

> > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a

person

> > > who

> > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it

doesn't

> > > maked a

> > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express

disbelief!!!)

> > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

> > >

> > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the

beginning,

> > > if not

> > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> > >

> > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> > >

> > > Charlene

> > >

> > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > > I think that

> > > Brain empty,

> > > Cheers,

> > > Carol

> > >

____________________________________________________________________

> > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> > >

> >

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June 5, 2000

KM: I believe in God. Anyone have a problem with that?

jan

Re: AA and suicide

> >

> > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

> > from birth

> > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

> > That's

> > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

> > who

> > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

> > maked a

> > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

> > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

> >

> > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning,

> > if not

> > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> >

> > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> >

> > Charlene

> >

> > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > I think that

> > Brain empty,

> > Cheers,

> > Carol

> >

> > ____________________________________________________________________

> > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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June 5, 2000

Oh.... really Mike?

It's populated with a bunch of dumbasses who can't even figure out that

praying is religious and powerlessness is a weakness. It's a bunch of people

who can't realize that their actions are their own responsibility and not a

God's. Almost without exception, AAers are the biggest morons this side of

brain-dead. Your statement is the kind of observations that cause people to

call for your being booted off this list. Don't get me wrong, Mike, I like

you and I don't want you booted. But this kind of statement flies in the

face of what is revealed when you engage AAers in discussion which is not

composed of dumb-ass slogans. Let's be clear about one thing- AA sucks and

most of it's adherents are too stupid to engage in a real conversation.

----- Original Message -----

> I don't think that the people who go to AA are any more smarter or

> dumber than the general population.

June 5, 2000

i dont give a damn what anyone belives as long as they dont

try teach me, or other non belivers they need to belive in any thing

other themselves to be sober, have self respect and self

responsibilty and then claim in denial of my " disease " if i say

dont agree with anything they say. if they dont do that, then no

problem.

dave

> > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------------------

> > > > > Attachment:

> > > > > MIME Type: multipart/alternative

> > > > > ---------------------------------------------

> > > > Charlene:

> > > >

> > > > Never really connected powerlessness with the

beginning of

> > > depression

> > > > and with my personal background that amazes me.

> > > >

> > > > I'm stickin to your story to.

> > > >

> > > > Re: AA and suicide

> > > >

> > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are

> brainwashed

> > > > from birth

> > > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a

> " God " .

> > > > That's

> > > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a

> person

> > > > who

> > > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it

> doesn't

> > > > maked a

> > > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express

> disbelief!!!)

> > > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with

theists.

> > > >

> > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the

> beginning,

> > > > if not

> > > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes

suicide.

> > > >

> > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> > > >

> > > > Charlene

> > > >

> > > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > > > I think that

> > > > Brain empty,

> > > > Cheers,

> > > > Carol

> > > >

>

__________________________________________________

__________________

> > > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account

today at

> > > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> > > >

> > >

> ------------------------------------------------

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> the

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June 5, 2000

Because I've never- NEVER- heard any Jew, Muslim aor Christian deny that

their prayers are a religious activity. What a bunch of half-wits AA is

filled with.

----- Original Message -----

> This is kinda funny. Why would people drawn into AA have less

> education than say, Christians or Jews or Muslims or anybody who

> believes all that hocus pocus in the Bible or Tora or Koran or

> whatever else?

June 5, 2000

Jan:

This group is 12 step` free which is not the same thing at all of being

God free. I am fairly new on the list, (although sometimes I feel I've

been here a lot longer) 'I'm assuming and I hope correctly, that people

on this list respect others religious beliefs, or lack of religious

beliefs. I don't believe atheism is one of the requirements of the list.

I have made it clear that I believe in God, in fact one thing that

bothered me about 12 step groups is there is quite a lot of religion

bashing, so many of the supposedly " spiritual giants " , have no problem

attacking someone whose belief in God is more conventional than the

Deism or Theism that has become in a lot of places, the 12 step

religion!

Just my opinion Jan, but whatever ones belief in God is or isn't, is

about as important to this group as whether a member is a Liberal or

Conservative.

Originally Mikena@...

KM: I believe in God. Anyone have a problem with that?

jan

Re: AA and suicide

> >

> > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

> > from birth

> > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

> > That's

> > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

> > who

> > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

> > maked a

> > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

> > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

> >

> > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning,

> > if not

> > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> >

> > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> >

> > Charlene

> >

> > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > I think that

> > Brain empty,

> > Cheers,

> > Carol

> >

> > ____________________________________________________________________

> > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

> net.

> > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install

> now:

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June 5, 2000

I read once somewhere that a survey had shown that nonchurchgoers were far more

ethical than churchgoers. Of course, you have to take this with a grain of

salt, since I don't know how " ethical " was defined, or " churchgoers, " or what

denominations were studied, or any details like that. Yet the conclusion makes

a lot of sense to me. I've definitely know people who figure that if they show

up on Sundays, it doesn't matter what they do between Monday and Saturday.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hey Janice,

>

> Sorry if I made you defensive. I guess I was trying to make a

>point. I doubt that most people will have a problem with you

>believing

>in God. Most people do. It's not spontaneous, though, like it was

>back

>in the day before people knew how things worked. Back in the day it

>rained and people wondered why. They thought God did it. Now we know

>why it rains so alot more effort has to go into getting people to

>think stuff is happening through some all knowing higher power deal.

> Maybe my point was going towards an idea that even folks in this

>group aren't making all that radical of a departure from AA. It seems

>that if folks relied less on the whole God or Higher Power deal in AA

>then perhaps the human beings in the groups would have to be more

>accountable for their actions.

>

>sorry for rambling

>

>k

>

>> > >

>> > > > ---------------------------------------------

>> > > > Attachment:

>> > > > MIME Type: multipart/alternative

>> > > > ---------------------------------------------

>> > > Charlene:

>> > >

>> > > Never really connected powerlessness with the beginning of

>> > depression

>> > > and with my personal background that amazes me.

>> > >

>> > > I'm stickin to your story to.

>> > >

>> > > Re: AA and suicide

>> > >

>> > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are

>brainwashed

>> > > from birth

>> > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a

> " God " .

>> > > That's

>> > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a

>person

>> > > who

>> > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it

>doesn't

>> > > maked a

>> > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express

>disbelief!!!)

>> > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

>> > >

>> > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the

>beginning,

>> > > if not

>> > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

>> > >

>> > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

>> > >

>> > > Charlene

>> > >

>> > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

>> > > I think that

>> > > Brain empty,

>> > > Cheers,

>> > > Carol

>> > >

>____________________________________________________________________

>> > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

>> > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

>> > >

>> >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > --

>> > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on

>the

>> > net.

>> > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com

>Install

>> > now:

>> > > http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959907416/

>> > >

>> >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > --

>> >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>--

>> > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

>> > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/960223126/

>> >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

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>> >

>

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June 5, 2000

So Joe, are you saying that people who believe in God are somehow less

intelligent or more naive than the atheist.

And Joe let me tell you something. If anyone wants to throw me off the

list because I said there is nothing wrong in believing in God than I

would consider it a badge of honor to be tossed.

What an intolerant tirade!!

Originally Mikena@...

At 22:21 05/06/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Oh.... really Mike?

>It's populated with a bunch of dumbasses who can't even figure out that

>praying is religious and powerlessness is a weakness. It's a bunch of people

>who can't realize that their actions are their own responsibility and not a

>God's. Almost without exception, AAers are the biggest morons this side of

>brain-dead. Your statement is the kind of observations that cause people to

>call for your being booted off this list. Don't get me wrong, Mike, I like

>you and I don't want you booted. But this kind of statement flies in the

>face of what is revealed when you engage AAers in discussion which is not

>composed of dumb-ass slogans. Let's be clear about one thing- AA sucks and

>most of it's adherents are too stupid to engage in a real conversation.

>----- Original Message -----

>

> > I don't think that the people who go to AA are any more smarter or

> > dumber than the general population.

I'd like to add something here. Like some others on this list I have been

on both sides of this particular fence; several years as a true believer

followed by several years as a person scratching his head, realising it was

all nonsense and wondering how he could have possibly believed all that.

I knew a number of very intelligent people in my time as a stepper. I

agree that the intelligence of the AA/NA membership is about the same as

the population as a whole- it might even be higher. The thing is, if you

are a cult member, you are trained not to use the intelligence you have-

you are trained not to think too deeply about certain things, and to accept

certain " truths " . This is altogether a different problem from not having

the wits to think about those things if you decided to try. It is more a

question of what beliefs the person has than their potential computing

power. If you believe that it is dangerous to question certain ideas, then

even as an intelligent person you will still appear to have good reason to

not question them.

This is what is dangerous about cults- they do not only attract stupid

people, If that was all their membership was, we would not have the present

crazy situation.

Joe B.

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June 5, 2000

What's the measure of intelligence? Intelligence is the ability to

acquire and apply knowledge.

For some reason, in the US, we equate intelligence with education.

One would think that there is a correlation, sometimes, between

education and a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't

necessarily make education the be all and end all in intelligence.

How does a degree in Information systems, dental hygiene, agriculture

or accounting correlate to being better able to answer the questions

of life the universe and everything? They don't. What they do is

confer a certain level of knowledge in the given field. So why do we

automatically assume someone holding a degree is more intelligent

then someone with a high school diploma? I've never understood this.

Does holding a degree in agriculture render someone immune to XA? I

would think not. But a degree in psychology might or at least you

might think it would. And yet it doesn't always.

Here's what I think.

I think there are a hell of a lot of intelligent people in XA just

like there are a lot of ignorant dumbasses. What I believe they both

have in common is a susceptibility to faith based belief systems.*

In other words if you believe in God you have an increased risk of

falling for XA hook line and sinker. The risk grows proportionately

with the level of your belief in that god and application of that

belief in your everyday life. That's why I believe, the HP thing is

so critical. Paramount for the atheist's in the rewms is to get a

god. If they don't have a god don't worry because they'll help them

create one for themselves. Only for as long as it takes to wean them

off that god onto the real god.

If you don't have faith in something outside yourself how can you

hope to overcome the addiction? At least that's the reasoning that

seems to come out of XA. (This line of reasoning also contributes

immeasurably to the defeatist mentality in the rewms but that's

fodder for another thread.) Except they twist and turn that faith

into something that is unrecognizably ugly by the time it's all over.

The AA god is an incredibly anal god who's only purpose is to protect

AA's from themselves. That in my books is as ugly as it gets.

XA's anti intellectual atmosphere uses that faith to block the

acquisition and application of knowledge by it's members to keep

them, not only from discerning the XA rat for what it is but that

they're an integral part of that rat.

* By way of explanation I see belief in god as a willingness to

suspend your own critical thinking ability in favor of a belief

system which acts and reacts based on faith vice cold hard facts.

This trait is then subverted by XA to further it's own ends which of

course is XA itself. Please note that I am not making any judgements

as to the rightness or wrongness of believing in a god.

Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

At 22:21 05/06/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Oh.... really Mike?

>It's populated with a bunch of dumbasses who can't even figure out

that

>praying is religious and powerlessness is a weakness. It's a bunch

of people

>who can't realize that their actions are their own responsibility

and not a

>God's. Almost without exception, AAers are the biggest morons this

side of

>brain-dead. Your statement is the kind of observations that cause

people to

>call for your being booted off this list. Don't get me wrong, Mike,

I like

>you and I don't want you booted. But this kind of statement flies in

the

>face of what is revealed when you engage AAers in discussion which

is not

>composed of dumb-ass slogans. Let's be clear about one thing- AA

sucks and

>most of it's adherents are too stupid to engage in a real

conversation.

>----- Original Message -----

>

> > I don't think that the people who go to AA are any more smarter

or

> > dumber than the general population.

I'd like to add something here. Like some others on this list I have

been

on both sides of this particular fence; several years as a true

believer

followed by several years as a person scratching his head, realising

it was

all nonsense and wondering how he could have possibly believed all

that.

I knew a number of very intelligent people in my time as a stepper. I

agree that the intelligence of the AA/NA membership is about the

same as

the population as a whole- it might even be higher. The thing is, if

you

are a cult member, you are trained not to use the intelligence you

have-

you are trained not to think too deeply about certain things, and to

accept

certain " truths " . This is altogether a different problem from not

having

the wits to think about those things if you decided to try. It is

more a

question of what beliefs the person has than their potential

computing

power. If you believe that it is dangerous to question certain ideas,

then

even as an intelligent person you will still appear to have good

reason to

not question them.

This is what is dangerous about cults- they do not only attract

stupid

people, If that was all their membership was, we would not have the

present

crazy situation.

Joe B.

June 5, 2000

Yo, Mike,

If you're going to complain about 'intolerant tirades' please quote them!

On the average, people who believe in God actually *are* less intelligent

and less well educated than people who don't. If you absolutely insist, I'll

dig up the 'studies' supporting this fact out of old issues of Free Inquiry.

On the other hand, who cares?? I've known quite a few highly intelligent

believers, including both my parents, some other relatives, and

TheLoveOfMyLife.

-- wally

Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

So Joe, are you saying that people who believe in God are somehow less

intelligent or more naive than the atheist.

And Joe let me tell you something. If anyone wants to throw me off the

list because I said there is nothing wrong in believing in God than I

would consider it a badge of honor to be tossed.

What an intolerant tirade!!

Originally Mikena@...

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June 5, 2000

Lol. Them's fighting words is it?

Seriously though. Which one? I believe there are over 2,000.

I would never fault anyone for believing in any god because the truth

is our positions are closer than most would like to think. While

you believe in one god and not the other 2000 odd number of gods. I

don't believe in any.

You see we're just one away from complete agreement.

The reason I asked which one is because you posted you believe in

" God " . It's so nonspecific. I believe I know exactly which God it

is you're refering to though. Just like everyone in XA knows exactly

which God is refered to when it's mentioned in the rewms. There's

really no question about it. Which is IMO exactly why the rewms are

such errr.....toxic ...... places for those who don't believe in that

God.

I believe the saddest thing about XA is that it instills a defeatest

mentality in people. You can't win against your addiction so why

try? The whole desease theory implies that the only thing you can do

is attempt to control the symptoms. If you accept this proposition

before you've even started you've already admitted to being beaten by

the desease. When someone trys and fails it further reinforces this

mentality. After awhile what's left? I'm sure the after life, if

any, starts looking better and better to some people.

Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

KM: I believe in God. Anyone have a problem with that?

jan

June 5, 2000

it is becuase of this AA is NOT a self help group, its

self-helplessness group. any group which instill the idea its

members are powerless or people, places and things and must

turm thier will over to god/hp to guide them because they are too

defective to manage on their own, is teaching helplessness and

that free will is futile.

> I believe the saddest thing about XA is that it instills a defeatest

> mentality in people. You can't win against your addiction so

why

> try? The whole desease theory implies that the only thing you

can do

> is attempt to control the symptoms. If you accept this

proposition

> before you've even started you've already admitted to being

beaten by

> the desease. When someone trys and fails it further

reinforces this

> mentality. After awhile what's left? I'm sure the after life, if

> any, starts looking better and better to some people.

>

> Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>

> KM: I believe in God. Anyone have a problem with that?

>

> jan

June 6, 2000

Interesting, . I've been enjoying your posts.

It wasn't until I experienced XA and tried to go along with all of it that I

finally realized that I didn't believe in God - at least not the

interventionist Santa-Claus God that was spoken of in the rooms or the God

of the Bible. Of course, I would not want to make the mistake that many

believers do of imposing my views on anyone else or making judgments about

them.

It's just ironic to me that it took XA to make me face my disbelief, which I

now recognize as having been there for many years. In the past I told

myself that I wasn't something as scary & mean sounding as an atheist, I

just didn't have any views in common with the religious people in my life.

It was in XA that I realized that in addition to the problem that made me

leave the church -- my views on morality differed, the social stuff -- was

not the fundamental problem. I actually didn't believe in the paradigm -

the cosmology - the metaphysics of the whole shebang. It was awful to admit

to myself. I find myself enamored of the poetic sensibilities and

non-dogmatic reverence of pantheism.

Anyway...

My fiance often talks of God, but he didn't have a religious upbringing - he

has had no negative experiences or even read the Bible, and therefore does

not connect his God with anyone else's. Me, I've had years of religious

education, gathered many negative experiences and impressions, sorted

through a lot of it in school by studying anthropological, feminist and

psychological perspectives, etc. etc. And yet it all means nothing to him -

he is not even familiar with Bible stories my five year old niece could

recite, and has no interest in learning about them. He keeps his God

separate from all of that and therefore outside of a realm of debate with

me. Which is fine, especially because he doesn't impose his views on me.

We've found some common ground lately in reading and enjoying the views and

opinions of Albert Einstein and Bishop J.S. Spong concerning God and

religion. Although my fiance still attends meetings, I'm happy to see other

books besides the big book lying dog-eared by his side of the bed.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: RE: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:28:41 -0500

>

>Here's what I think.

>

>I think there are a hell of a lot of intelligent people in XA just

>like there are a lot of ignorant dumbasses. What I believe they both

>have in common is a susceptibility to faith based belief systems.*

>In other words if you believe in God you have an increased risk of

>falling for XA hook line and sinker. The risk grows proportionately

>with the level of your belief in that god and application of that

>belief in your everyday life. That's why I believe, the HP thing is

>so critical. Paramount for the atheist's in the rewms is to get a

>god. If they don't have a god don't worry because they'll help them

>create one for themselves. Only for as long as it takes to wean them

>off that god onto the real god.

>

>If you don't have faith in something outside yourself how can you

>hope to overcome the addiction? At least that's the reasoning that

>seems to come out of XA. (This line of reasoning also contributes

>immeasurably to the defeatist mentality in the rewms but that's

>fodder for another thread.) Except they twist and turn that faith

>into something that is unrecognizably ugly by the time it's all over.

>The AA god is an incredibly anal god who's only purpose is to protect

>AA's from themselves. That in my books is as ugly as it gets.

>

>XA's anti intellectual atmosphere uses that faith to block the

>acquisition and application of knowledge by it's members to keep

>them, not only from discerning the XA rat for what it is but that

>they're an integral part of that rat.

>

>* By way of explanation I see belief in god as a willingness to

>suspend your own critical thinking ability in favor of a belief

>system which acts and reacts based on faith vice cold hard facts.

>This trait is then subverted by XA to further it's own ends which of

>course is XA itself. Please note that I am not making any judgements

>as to the rightness or wrongness of believing in a god.

>

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June 6, 2000