Re: Oppositional behavior

[Guest guest]

I would be tempted to talk to a child psychologist. We were fortunate to

have one at our school that had ADHD himself, and was experienced in

working with children with assorted problems complicated by disability

because our school has a cluster unit. He was *so* helpful, and

would talk openly with him--not in the whining, manipulative way she

would often interact with others. 's problems were not ODD type, or

I would share the advice we got, but to some extent she has matured out

of it (although her behavior at age 9 is still not what one would call

developmentally appropriate, and she *can* be quite uncooperative).

I hope you are able to get some good help!

Judith

----- Original Message -----

>

> We are having an awful time with Alycia's

> behavior. So bad that I am starting to wonder if

> she has Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

>

> Alycia is 6 1/2 years old and goes to Kindergarten

> with the support of an aide. She has multiple

> issues including Muscular Dystrophy which is

> exhibed by motor delays and fatique. As a result

> of her MD, she noticibly does not run as fast as

> the other children which gets commented upon by

> her peers....I know this bugs her because she

> complains that she can't run fast and that certain

> of her classmates say things to her about it. She

> also has learning difficulties, hearing

> impairment, vision impairment and slight physical

> facial differences. She has a lot going on and is

> probably understandable frustrated and perhaps a

> bit angry that she has to deal with this stuff.

> So, some of her misbehavior might be " acting out " .

[Guest guest]

Lori,

Have you considered a child psychologist? I think that would be your best bet. Maybe some family counselling too, just to help you and anyone else involved be together on how you deal with her so there is consistency.

I hope things get better for you soon.

Jayne

[Guest guest]

Lori,

I had to reply to you because your daughter sounds EXACTLY like my son. Same

age, same disabilities, same behaviors. One minute he'd be a doll, then next

minute he'd be terrible. I, also, dealt with this terrible behavior for a

long time. It all started around when he turned 4. I thought he was going

through a normal stage and he would out grow it until he began making our

family life miserable. I did not discuss it with my pediatrician. I went to

our pediatric neurologist. I am also a Special Education Teacher and do not

feel comfortable with a pediatrician dealing with this. We put our son on

two different behavior medications and he goes to an excellent psychologist

once a week and things seem to be improving alot. I could go on forever, but

in a nutshell, things do not sound normal. You all will be living happier

lives if you get some assistance. In addition, it is very common for

children with neurological disorders to develop behaviorally and social

problem. It is very similar to having a learning disability in math or

reading, these children just have a learning disability in maturity. Hope I

helped. Beth

Oppositional behavior

> Hi everyone,

>

> We are having an awful time with Alycia's

> behavior. So bad that I am starting to wonder if

> she has Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

>

> Alycia is 6 1/2 years old and goes to Kindergarten

> with the support of an aide. She has multiple

> issues including Muscular Dystrophy which is

> exhibed by motor delays and fatique. As a result

> of her MD, she noticibly does not run as fast as

> the other children which gets commented upon by

> her peers....I know this bugs her because she

> complains that she can't run fast and that certain

> of her classmates say things to her about it. She

> also has learning difficulties, hearing

> impairment, vision impairment and slight physical

> facial differences. She has a lot going on and is

> probably understandable frustrated and perhaps a

> bit angry that she has to deal with this stuff.

> So, some of her misbehavior might be " acting out " .

>

> It seems to me, however, that her behavior is

> beyond just " acting out " . If she were simply

> throwing tantrums, I would say " acting out " but

> instead, she is making calculated efforts to anger

> the authority figures in her life (parents,

> teachers, aide). She will figure out just what

> sort of behavior will generate a negative reaction

> from the authority figure and proceed with the

> behavior. For example, if she sees another child

> get scolded for a behavior in class, she will

> immediately imitate that child's behavior so that

> she will get scolded too. It isn't that she

> doesn't know the difference, she most certainly

> knows that the child's behavior is

> inappropriate...she is very shrewd. I have also

> noticed that when watching T.V., she will pick up

> on an actor's misbehavior and mimic it. If she is

> told not to do something, she will look you right

> in the eye and do it anyway. In the academic

> setting, she will purposely answer questions

> incorrectly. It is like she enjoys being scolded.

>

> I know that behaviorists suggest trying to ignore

> negative behavior and to try and " catch the child

> being good " so that bad behavior isn't

> inadvertantly rewarded by your attention. I have

> stuck to this method of " catching Alycia being

> good " and " ignoring the bad behavior " (within

> reason) since day one. I spend a lot of personal

> time with my daughter to avoid the syndrome of

> " bad attention " is better than no attention. When

> she starts pulling her bologna of purposely

> answering academic questions incorrectly, I stop

> the exercise then walk away thereby depriving her

> of my attention completely. None of these things

> have worked! She continues to intentionally

> elicit negative reactions from us and her

> teachers.

>

> I am thinking that I should seek the advice of her

> pediatrician but I am afraid of appearing foolish

> by complaining to a medical doctor that I have a

> " chronically naughty child " . To confuse things

> further, she can be as " Angelic " as she is

> " Devilish " . She will do things like clean her

> room, clear the dinner table, put away the

> groceries and so forth without being asked (of

> course, I lavish her with praise for doing these

> things unsolicited). It is like she has two

> personalities.

>

> Before I go off on a tangent thinking that there

> is something seriously wrong, is it possible that

> this is normal behavior for a 61/2 year old?

> (Actually this should be based on 5 1/2 since she

> is about 1 year developmentally delayed.)

>

> Thanks,

> Lori

>

>

> Brought to you by www.imdn.org - an on-line support group for those

affected by mitochondrial disease.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Judith,

Thank you for your response. Our school has a psycologist as well and I plan on

asking that this

individual be included in Alycia's core evaluation. Hopefully this will bring

some insight into the

problem.

My husband and I noticed that her behavior declined as it got closer for time to

go back to school this

past week. (She was home on school vacation). She was a terror at school

yesterday, her first day back.

She complained to us that she hates doing school work because it makes her " head

hurt " . This may be part

of the problem but I don't know how to solve it. It is a fact of life that you

have to go to school and

work hard to learn...and it isn't always fun.

Thanks for the input.

Lori

Judith and wrote:

> I would be tempted to talk to a child psychologist. We were fortunate to

> have one at our school that had ADHD himself, and was experienced in

> working with children with assorted problems complicated by disability

> because our school has a cluster unit. He was *so* helpful, and

> would talk openly with him--not in the whining, manipulative way she

> would often interact with others. 's problems were not ODD type, or

> I would share the advice we got, but to some extent she has matured out

> of it (although her behavior at age 9 is still not what one would call

> developmentally appropriate, and she *can* be quite uncooperative).

> I hope you are able to get some good help!

> Judith

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

Hi Jayne,

Thanks for the input. A child psycologist (and

family counselling) is something I am definately

going to consider.

I am also thinking of " secretly taping " the family

so that I can attempt to objectively hear myself

(and husband) as we deal with Alycia. I am

wondering if I am inadvertanly speaking down to

her, talking sarcastically to her or yelling too

much. I often catch my husband " jumping down her

throat " on the slightest provocation and I am

quick to point this out to him, however, I need to

find a way to step back and listen to myself as

well. I know that I tend to be sarcastic and I

frequently use terms like " whatever " , " ya, ya,

ya " , or " yep " when my husband says or does

something that I don't like. Alycia is picking up

my behavior and using it on her teachers when they

ask her to do tasks at school. Since she is into

mimicking inappropriate behavior, I need to behave

better myself which will be a challenge. :0)

Lori

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

Hi Beth,

I can relate to what you are saying. I keep thinking that Alycia will grow out

of this as well.

Unfortunately, I have been waiting all her life for her to grow out of it and

she is almost 7. Thinking

back, she was like this even as an infant and toddler. As a baby, she didn't

just cry for her milk, she

screamed with every inch of her body to the point of turning blue...and I was a

very responsive mother.

When she cried, I attended to her needs immediately! As a toddler, she

consistently refused to perform

for the therapists. Now she's refusing to perform for her teachers, unless she

feels like it. She has

had this " contrary " personality since the day she was born. As a toddler, it

was kind of funny to watch

her give her therapists a run for their money but it isn't funny anymore. If

she refuses to perform

during tests at school, she will get poor grades on material that she

understands simply because she

didn't feel like participating on that particular day.

She also has a diagnosis of CAPD which is characterized by inconsistant academic

performance but all of

her teachers/therapists agree that this isn't an issue of her knowing material

one day and forgetting it

the next. She is definately choosing not to demonstrate her knowlege as a way

of controlling the

authority figures around her.

I am calling the school psycologist into her Core Evaluation and I plan on

bringing this up with the

Neurologist, as you suggested. I hope we can find a solution before she

destroys herself.

Thanks,

Lori

DeArce wrote:

> Lori,

> I had to reply to you because your daughter sounds EXACTLY like my son. Same

> age, same disabilities, same behaviors. One minute he'd be a doll, then next

> minute he'd be terrible. I, also, dealt with this terrible behavior for a

> long time. It all started around when he turned 4. I thought he was going

> through a normal stage and he would out grow it until he began making our

> family life miserable. I did not discuss it with my pediatrician. I went to

> our pediatric neurologist. I am also a Special Education Teacher and do not

> feel comfortable with a pediatrician dealing with this. We put our son on

> two different behavior medications and he goes to an excellent psychologist

> once a week and things seem to be improving alot. I could go on forever, but

> in a nutshell, things do not sound normal. You all will be living happier

> lives if you get some assistance. In addition, it is very common for

> children with neurological disorders to develop behaviorally and social

> problem. It is very similar to having a learning disability in math or

> reading, these children just have a learning disability in maturity. Hope I

> helped. Beth

> Oppositional behavior

>

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > We are having an awful time with Alycia's

> > behavior. So bad that I am starting to wonder if

> > she has Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

> >

> > Alycia is 6 1/2 years old and goes to Kindergarten

> > with the support of an aide. She has multiple

> > issues including Muscular Dystrophy which is

> > exhibed by motor delays and fatique. As a result

> > of her MD, she noticibly does not run as fast as

> > the other children which gets commented upon by

> > her peers....I know this bugs her because she

> > complains that she can't run fast and that certain

> > of her classmates say things to her about it. She

> > also has learning difficulties, hearing

> > impairment, vision impairment and slight physical

> > facial differences. She has a lot going on and is

> > probably understandable frustrated and perhaps a

> > bit angry that she has to deal with this stuff.

> > So, some of her misbehavior might be " acting out " .

> >

> > It seems to me, however, that her behavior is

> > beyond just " acting out " . If she were simply

> > throwing tantrums, I would say " acting out " but

> > instead, she is making calculated efforts to anger

> > the authority figures in her life (parents,

> > teachers, aide). She will figure out just what

> > sort of behavior will generate a negative reaction

> > from the authority figure and proceed with the

> > behavior. For example, if she sees another child

> > get scolded for a behavior in class, she will

> > immediately imitate that child's behavior so that

> > she will get scolded too. It isn't that she

> > doesn't know the difference, she most certainly

> > knows that the child's behavior is

> > inappropriate...she is very shrewd. I have also

> > noticed that when watching T.V., she will pick up

> > on an actor's misbehavior and mimic it. If she is

> > told not to do something, she will look you right

> > in the eye and do it anyway. In the academic

> > setting, she will purposely answer questions

> > incorrectly. It is like she enjoys being scolded.

> >

> > I know that behaviorists suggest trying to ignore

> > negative behavior and to try and " catch the child

> > being good " so that bad behavior isn't

> > inadvertantly rewarded by your attention. I have

> > stuck to this method of " catching Alycia being

> > good " and " ignoring the bad behavior " (within

> > reason) since day one. I spend a lot of personal

> > time with my daughter to avoid the syndrome of

> > " bad attention " is better than no attention. When

> > she starts pulling her bologna of purposely

> > answering academic questions incorrectly, I stop

> > the exercise then walk away thereby depriving her

> > of my attention completely. None of these things

> > have worked! She continues to intentionally

> > elicit negative reactions from us and her

> > teachers.

> >

> > I am thinking that I should seek the advice of her

> > pediatrician but I am afraid of appearing foolish

> > by complaining to a medical doctor that I have a

> > " chronically naughty child " . To confuse things

> > further, she can be as " Angelic " as she is

> > " Devilish " . She will do things like clean her

> > room, clear the dinner table, put away the

> > groceries and so forth without being asked (of

> > course, I lavish her with praise for doing these

> > things unsolicited). It is like she has two

> > personalities.

> >

> > Before I go off on a tangent thinking that there

> > is something seriously wrong, is it possible that

> > this is normal behavior for a 61/2 year old?

> > (Actually this should be based on 5 1/2 since she

> > is about 1 year developmentally delayed.)

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Lori

> >

> >

> > Brought to you by www.imdn.org - an on-line support group for those

> affected by mitochondrial disease.

> >

>

>

> Brought to you by www.imdn.org - an on-line support group for those affected

by mitochondrial disease.

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

Lori, I am responding because Bart (autism) has had behaviors before that he

insisted on verbal prompts to eat anything. He often stops eating with a

virus. So I know we did give him the verbal prompts to get him back to

eating. That took a year to break and now he need him to say OK and I say OK

and same at school. But I noticed last week with my husband on vacation and

grandpa here that they were both giving him to many verbal prompts like eat

you (whatever) They were making me so mad. I think it is a good idea to step

back and try to take a look at the antecedents and consequences and the

resulting behavior. However, i am thinking that these behaviors go in cycles

and it must be mito related. His autism has a medical reason -Ithink-if we

could only get him tested. I hear ya. My husband will not follow a behavior

plan and it makes it hard. Like to tell Bart to come here but not tell him

why I do not like. Kathy F

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for the response. I read what you said, and I have to say that I think

the same thing is happening

here at our house and at school. Alycia has come to expect the verbal prompts

before performing.

Today, I threw her a curve ball. As usual, I told her to put away her toys (she

gets us early and plays

for awhile), get dressed, eat her breakfast, and put on her coat. While she

gets dressed, I usually set

up her toothbrush, medicine and breakfast then start my shower...unless I have

to go prompt her to get

dressed. Well...today she didn't get the prompt. Interestingly, I could hear

her upstairs making lots of

noise and goofing off...she was trying to make sure that I *knew* she wasn't

doing as she was told so that

I would come up and yell at her. But, I ignored her and took my shower. Well,

she must of got bored

because when I came out of the shower, she was sitting at the door with her coat

and boots on waiting for

me! She had even put her empty dishes in the sink!

I believe that she is doing the same thing at school. By putting on a little

display about not doing her

school work, she gets that extra little " prompt " and therefore a little special

attention from the

teacher. The teachers are handling it by making their comments generalized by

saying something like

" Everyone who doesn't do their school work will have do it during recess. " This

way, the motivation for

Alycia to do her work is given but she didn't get any special attention.

The challange is to stay one step ahead of her to try and avoid the habit of

giving her prompts.

I don't think Alycia has autisitc behaviors right now, although she used to. I

do think that her behavior

certainly stems from being poked and prodded by doctors and therapists all her

life.

Also, the behavior is cyclical as you mentioned. I find that Alycia regresses

at specific times of the

year and winter is always the toughest time of year for her. As she gets older,

she is more medically

stable so we don't get the infections and hospitalizations any more but she

seems to regress a bit in her

maturity level and her ability to retain information.

Anyway, your post was extremely helpful. I am going to try to be more aware

about developing the habit of

giving too many " prompts " .

Thanks for your help.

Lori Downs

By the way, Until Alycia was about 4, she never ate either. She was a failure

to thrive baby and

struggled to gain weight throughout her toddler years. I am not sure what

happened but now at the age of

6 1/2, she is a little " piggy girl " . She eats constantly! She must have an

incredibly fast metabolism

because she is still slim considering the enourmous amount of food (and

calories..she loves the high cal

stuff like nuts, raisins and chocolate!) that she eats. She supposedly has mito

but she is trully a

mystery because she is clearly becoming more stable and thriving as she gets

older. Her myopathy issues

are still present as demonstrated by her problem with fatigue and her fine motor

problems but it is

nothing like what she was like a few years ago. I hope this offers some of you

some hope.

KAFoley2@... wrote:

> Lori, I am responding because Bart (autism) has had behaviors before that he

> insisted on verbal prompts to eat anything. He often stops eating with a

> virus. So I know we did give him the verbal prompts to get him back to

> eating. That took a year to break and now he need him to say OK and I say OK

> and same at school. But I noticed last week with my husband on vacation and

> grandpa here that they were both giving him to many verbal prompts like eat

> you (whatever) They were making me so mad. I think it is a good idea to step

> back and try to take a look at the antecedents and consequences and the

> resulting behavior. However, i am thinking that these behaviors go in cycles

> and it must be mito related. His autism has a medical reason -Ithink-if we

> could only get him tested. I hear ya. My husband will not follow a behavior

> plan and it makes it hard. Like to tell Bart to come here but not tell him

> why I do not like. Kathy F

>

> Brought to you by www.imdn.org - an on-line support group for those affected

by mitochondrial disease.

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

Dear Loi,

My daughter does the same things at school. She wants someone to guide her

hands to write , she to has done things on her own but wants someone to

guide her to do everything. The more they help the less she does on her own.

She does it alot at home to. How do we change this habit.

Vange

Re: Oppositional behavior

> Hi Kathy,

>

> Thanks for the response. I read what you said, and I have to say that I

think the same thing is happening

> here at our house and at school. Alycia has come to expect the verbal

prompts before performing.

>

> Today, I threw her a curve ball. As usual, I told her to put away her

toys (she gets us early and plays

> for awhile), get dressed, eat her breakfast, and put on her coat. While

she gets dressed, I usually set

> up her toothbrush, medicine and breakfast then start my shower...unless I

have to go prompt her to get

> dressed. Well...today she didn't get the prompt. Interestingly, I could

hear her upstairs making lots of

> noise and goofing off...she was trying to make sure that I *knew* she

wasn't doing as she was told so that

> I would come up and yell at her. But, I ignored her and took my shower.

Well, she must of got bored

> because when I came out of the shower, she was sitting at the door with

her coat and boots on waiting for

> me! She had even put her empty dishes in the sink!

>

> I believe that she is doing the same thing at school. By putting on a

little display about not doing her

> school work, she gets that extra little " prompt " and therefore a little

special attention from the

> teacher. The teachers are handling it by making their comments

generalized by saying something like

> " Everyone who doesn't do their school work will have do it during recess. "

This way, the motivation for

> Alycia to do her work is given but she didn't get any special attention.

>

> The challange is to stay one step ahead of her to try and avoid the habit

of giving her prompts.

>

> I don't think Alycia has autisitc behaviors right now, although she used

to. I do think that her behavior

> certainly stems from being poked and prodded by doctors and therapists all

her life.

>

> Also, the behavior is cyclical as you mentioned. I find that Alycia

regresses at specific times of the

> year and winter is always the toughest time of year for her. As she gets

older, she is more medically

> stable so we don't get the infections and hospitalizations any more but

she seems to regress a bit in her

> maturity level and her ability to retain information.

>

> Anyway, your post was extremely helpful. I am going to try to be more

aware about developing the habit of

> giving too many " prompts " .

>

> Thanks for your help.

>

> Lori Downs

>

> By the way, Until Alycia was about 4, she never ate either. She was a

failure to thrive baby and

> struggled to gain weight throughout her toddler years. I am not sure what

happened but now at the age of

> 6 1/2, she is a little " piggy girl " . She eats constantly! She must have

an incredibly fast metabolism

> because she is still slim considering the enourmous amount of food (and

calories..she loves the high cal

> stuff like nuts, raisins and chocolate!) that she eats. She supposedly

has mito but she is trully a

> mystery because she is clearly becoming more stable and thriving as she

gets older. Her myopathy issues

> are still present as demonstrated by her problem with fatigue and her fine

motor problems but it is

> nothing like what she was like a few years ago. I hope this offers some

of you some hope.

>

> KAFoley2@... wrote:

>

> > Lori, I am responding because Bart (autism) has had behaviors before

that he

> > insisted on verbal prompts to eat anything. He often stops eating with

a

> > virus. So I know we did give him the verbal prompts to get him back to

> > eating. That took a year to break and now he need him to say OK and I

say OK

> > and same at school. But I noticed last week with my husband on vacation

and

> > grandpa here that they were both giving him to many verbal prompts like

eat

> > you (whatever) They were making me so mad. I think it is a good idea to

step

> > back and try to take a look at the antecedents and consequences and the

> > resulting behavior. However, i am thinking that these behaviors go in

cycles

> > and it must be mito related. His autism has a medical

reason -Ithink-if we

> > could only get him tested. I hear ya. My husband will not follow a

behavior

> > plan and it makes it hard. Like to tell Bart to come here but not tell

him

> > why I do not like. Kathy F

> >

> > Brought to you by www.imdn.org - an on-line support group for those

affected by mitochondrial disease.

>

> Brought to you by www.imdn.org - an on-line support group for those

affected by mitochondrial disease.

>