Guest guest Posted May 13, 2000 Report Share Posted May 13, 2000 This was a very moving post - thanks for sharing it with us. > warning: i am very emotional today. i'm not asking for support or anything, > just an opportunity to express my feelings. but right now i need pictures > and sounds and symbols, my own indefensible language. > > > ***** > > 's mirror exercise has me thinking about how I see myself in the things > I read here at 12sf. I've heard that when someone cheats on their spouse, > it is because of the way they feel when they are with that other person. > When I look at myself in the 12 step free mirror, I see a person with some > redeeming qualities. I see someone who really deserves a chance to figure > out who they are, and share that with the world. > > when i look at myself in the mirror of aa i see a sack of dirt. > > for the past year I've been putting these disparate self-images together. > before aa, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I saw trees bending in the > wind, fire and water: my landscape. I saw my whole past as an uninterrupted > flow of events in time and space. I knew I was weird, I defied > categorization. I thought maybe, just maybe, my weirdness was a little > entertaining most of the time. I thought I deserved to be forgiven for the > things I'd done wrong, as long as I tried to learn from them. > > if they had left the landscape it would have been easier. but they used a > strong acid solution to wipe away everything. it's taken work to put it back > together. and each step of the way, the doubts: maybe i am *bad* to want to > leave that aa experience behind. maybe i am *bad* to talk about it openly, > instead of hiding it away shamefully. > > the only strong spiritual belief i have is that, whatever power exists that > binds us all together, that power made me what I am, talks to me even still, > lives inside me. to me it feels like instinct to be here now, talking about > the bad things that happened to me after i decided to go through treatment. > > i'm comfortable being american, white, female, 40. i can define those things > in a positive way, i can see good done by americans and whites and females > and people 40 years old. i can feel remorse for the bad things done by me, > and by people who are like me, without needing to vilify or blame myself or > others. > > but i look at who i was in aa and i don't see a positive thing about that > person. that person didn't drink or use drugs, was afraid of drinking or > using drugs, and was mean because of that deep fear. > > not just afraid of using, but afraid of wanting to use, sure that wanting to > use was a sign of my own innate evil. mean because of that deep fear. fear > of illegitimacy (thank you Szasz for giving me words to describe this > feeling.) > > so i can't go there anymore. i've got to check out of that place with the aa > mirror. make it just one more event, one more punctuation mark, on the > uninterrupted flow of my life. > > and it's like, each time i do that, i reclaim a little bit of my landscape. > is that recovery? i think i may stop using the word " recovery, " because its > meaning is too bastardized by the 12 steps to be of any significance. this > is intensely personal and totally unique to me. > > me, me, me, me, me. hehe i wager you'll never hear anything like this in > a 12 step forum, unless it's for the purpose of shaming someone. humility is > not my friend. > > judith > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2000 Report Share Posted May 13, 2000 Thanks Judith. The " me " of you is a valuable thing. AA is psycho-spiritual molestation. You have been abused. You have escaped. Hurray for you. Regards, > warning: i am very emotional today. i'm not asking for support or anything, > just an opportunity to express my feelings. but right now i need pictures > and sounds and symbols, my own indefensible language. > > > ***** > > 's mirror exercise has me thinking about how I see myself in the things > I read here at 12sf. I've heard that when someone cheats on their spouse, > it is because of the way they feel when they are with that other person. > When I look at myself in the 12 step free mirror, I see a person with some > redeeming qualities. I see someone who really deserves a chance to figure > out who they are, and share that with the world. > > when i look at myself in the mirror of aa i see a sack of dirt. > > for the past year I've been putting these disparate self-images together. > before aa, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I saw trees bending in the > wind, fire and water: my landscape. I saw my whole past as an uninterrupted > flow of events in time and space. I knew I was weird, I defied > categorization. I thought maybe, just maybe, my weirdness was a little > entertaining most of the time. I thought I deserved to be forgiven for the > things I'd done wrong, as long as I tried to learn from them. > > if they had left the landscape it would have been easier. but they used a > strong acid solution to wipe away everything. it's taken work to put it back > together. and each step of the way, the doubts: maybe i am *bad* to want to > leave that aa experience behind. maybe i am *bad* to talk about it openly, > instead of hiding it away shamefully. > > the only strong spiritual belief i have is that, whatever power exists that > binds us all together, that power made me what I am, talks to me even still, > lives inside me. to me it feels like instinct to be here now, talking about > the bad things that happened to me after i decided to go through treatment. > > i'm comfortable being american, white, female, 40. i can define those things > in a positive way, i can see good done by americans and whites and females > and people 40 years old. i can feel remorse for the bad things done by me, > and by people who are like me, without needing to vilify or blame myself or > others. > > but i look at who i was in aa and i don't see a positive thing about that > person. that person didn't drink or use drugs, was afraid of drinking or > using drugs, and was mean because of that deep fear. > > not just afraid of using, but afraid of wanting to use, sure that wanting to > use was a sign of my own innate evil. mean because of that deep fear. fear > of illegitimacy (thank you Szasz for giving me words to describe this > feeling.) > > so i can't go there anymore. i've got to check out of that place with the aa > mirror. make it just one more event, one more punctuation mark, on the > uninterrupted flow of my life. > > and it's like, each time i do that, i reclaim a little bit of my landscape. > is that recovery? i think i may stop using the word " recovery, " because its > meaning is too bastardized by the 12 steps to be of any significance. this > is intensely personal and totally unique to me. > > me, me, me, me, me. hehe i wager you'll never hear anything like this in > a 12 step forum, unless it's for the purpose of shaming someone. humility is > not my friend. > > judith > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2000 Report Share Posted May 13, 2000 Dear Judith You reminded me of the obsession with drink/drugs that sadly and bafflingly remains part and parcel of the AA/NA mentality. Firstly, there're are the people who seem to get off on juicy shares about just what a fun bad time they had, secondly there are the NA types, typified by bigbrother.org, who are clear that drugs are permanently sexy, regardless of status as " user " or " recoverer " . Thirdly, those, like my poor old ex, who spend half their waking hours wondering if their spouse is drinking or not -- she used to get to me a bit by coming out with " where have you been drinking? " and similar when I'd been nowhere near a bar in months on end and neither of us was boozing or using at all for eighteen months unbroken. Out of the blue. Fear, of course, a major symptom of the real disease of the stepNazis. Yours, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: seeing myself >Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 08:42:01 -0700 (PDT) > >warning: i am very emotional today. i'm not asking for support or anything, >just an opportunity to express my feelings. but right now i need pictures >and sounds and symbols, my own indefensible language. > > >***** > >'s mirror exercise has me thinking about how I see myself in the things >I read here at 12sf. I've heard that when someone cheats on their spouse, >it is because of the way they feel when they are with that other person. >When I look at myself in the 12 step free mirror, I see a person with some >redeeming qualities. I see someone who really deserves a chance to figure >out who they are, and share that with the world. > >when i look at myself in the mirror of aa i see a sack of dirt. > >for the past year I've been putting these disparate self-images together. >before aa, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I saw trees bending in >the >wind, fire and water: my landscape. I saw my whole past as an uninterrupted >flow of events in time and space. I knew I was weird, I defied >categorization. I thought maybe, just maybe, my weirdness was a little >entertaining most of the time. I thought I deserved to be forgiven for the >things I'd done wrong, as long as I tried to learn from them. > >if they had left the landscape it would have been easier. but they used a >strong acid solution to wipe away everything. it's taken work to put it >back >together. and each step of the way, the doubts: maybe i am *bad* to want to >leave that aa experience behind. maybe i am *bad* to talk about it openly, >instead of hiding it away shamefully. > >the only strong spiritual belief i have is that, whatever power exists that >binds us all together, that power made me what I am, talks to me even >still, >lives inside me. to me it feels like instinct to be here now, talking about >the bad things that happened to me after i decided to go through treatment. > >i'm comfortable being american, white, female, 40. i can define those >things >in a positive way, i can see good done by americans and whites and females >and people 40 years old. i can feel remorse for the bad things done by me, >and by people who are like me, without needing to vilify or blame myself or >others. > >but i look at who i was in aa and i don't see a positive thing about that >person. that person didn't drink or use drugs, was afraid of drinking or >using drugs, and was mean because of that deep fear. > >not just afraid of using, but afraid of wanting to use, sure that wanting >to >use was a sign of my own innate evil. mean because of that deep fear. fear >of illegitimacy (thank you Szasz for giving me words to describe this >feeling.) > >so i can't go there anymore. i've got to check out of that place with the >aa >mirror. make it just one more event, one more punctuation mark, on the >uninterrupted flow of my life. > >and it's like, each time i do that, i reclaim a little bit of my landscape. >is that recovery? i think i may stop using the word " recovery, " because its >meaning is too bastardized by the 12 steps to be of any significance. this >is intensely personal and totally unique to me. > >me, me, me, me, me. hehe i wager you'll never hear anything like this in >a 12 step forum, unless it's for the purpose of shaming someone. humility >is >not my friend. > >judith > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite >Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2000 Report Share Posted May 13, 2000 I watched the documentary " Trekkies " and from what I could see, the program Star Trek has a better history of actually helping people to overcome their problems than 12 step treatment. There are people who have used Star Trek as a way of dealing with chronic physical and mental illness. They go to the conventions or write to the actors, and share how Star Trek is a part of their lives. And the actors are proud of what an important role they play in the lives of these everyday people. Think about it. Anyone who watches Star Trek, think about that world. Think about what happens to people who are different: they find ways to use their difference to everyone's advantage. Bad guys are the ones who take advantage of the weak. I think those are good messages, good " values " to have in a make believe world. Compare them with the values you learned in AA or treatment or whatever. What happens to people who are different in AA? to me it's a lot like public high school: the weak and the different get chewed up and spit out. It's a conformity meat grinder. I was a smart kid, and it was not a popular trait among my peers. Conformity led to violence perpetrated by those who would police what is and is not acceptable. Judith, talking too much (I should go to On and On and On Anon) On Sat, 13 May 2000 18:14:41 GMT, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > Dear Judith > > You reminded me of the obsession with drink/drugs that sadly and bafflingly > remains part and parcel of the AA/NA mentality. Firstly, there're are the > people who seem to get off on juicy shares about just what a fun bad time > they had, secondly there are the NA types, typified by bigbrother.org, who > are clear that drugs are permanently sexy, regardless of status as " user " or > " recoverer " . Thirdly, those, like my poor old ex, who spend half their > waking hours wondering if their spouse is drinking or not -- she used to get > to me a bit by coming out with " where have you been drinking? " and similar > when I'd been nowhere near a bar in months on end and neither of us was > boozing or using at all for eighteen months unbroken. Out of the blue. > Fear, of course, a major symptom of the real disease of the stepNazis. > > Yours, > > . _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2000 Report Share Posted May 13, 2000 Since most AA members keep their emotional maturity at high school level, it's no wonder it's full of cliques, populated by the best recovery-speak members. __________________________________________________________________ Re: seeing myself > I watched the documentary " Trekkies " and from what I could see, the program > Star Trek has a better history of actually helping people to overcome their > problems than 12 step treatment. > > There are people who have used Star Trek as a way of dealing with chronic > physical and mental illness. They go to the conventions or write to the > actors, and share how Star Trek is a part of their lives. And the actors > are proud of what an important role they play in the lives of these everyday > people. > > Think about it. Anyone who watches Star Trek, think about that world. Think > about what happens to people who are different: they find ways to use their > difference to everyone's advantage. Bad guys are the ones who take advantage > of the weak. I think those are good messages, good " values " to have in a > make believe world. > > Compare them with the values you learned in AA or treatment or whatever. > What happens to people who are different in AA? to me it's a lot like public > high school: the weak and the different get chewed up and spit out. It's a > conformity meat grinder. I was a smart kid, and it was not a popular trait > among my peers. Conformity led to violence perpetrated by those who would > police what is and is not acceptable. > > Judith, talking too much (I should go to On and On and On Anon) > > On Sat, 13 May 2000 18:14:41 GMT, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > > > Dear Judith > > > > You reminded me of the obsession with drink/drugs that sadly and > bafflingly > > remains part and parcel of the AA/NA mentality. Firstly, there're are > the > > people who seem to get off on juicy shares about just what a fun bad time > > > they had, secondly there are the NA types, typified by bigbrother.org, > who > > are clear that drugs are permanently sexy, regardless of status as " user " > or > > " recoverer " . Thirdly, those, like my poor old ex, who spend half their > > waking hours wondering if their spouse is drinking or not -- she used to > get > > to me a bit by coming out with " where have you been drinking? " and > similar > > when I'd been nowhere near a bar in months on end and neither of us was > > boozing or using at all for eighteen months unbroken. Out of the blue. > > Fear, of course, a major symptom of the real disease of the stepNazis. > > > > Yours, > > > > . > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Win an iMac computer from The Apples in stereo and other > FREE great stuff at RollingStone.com! > http://click./1/4023/2/_/4324/_/958244283/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2000 Report Share Posted May 14, 2000 All I learned of, in my year in Al-Anon, was my failings. I saw them in infinite detail. No answers. None. It drove me out of the program. Judith Stillwater wrote: > <snip> > > when i look at myself in the mirror of aa i see a sack of dirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2000 Report Share Posted May 15, 2000 Now that you mention it, watching (experiencing?) Star Trek is like taking a hope-filled trip into the future. Going to an AA meeting is like taking a despairing trip back to a time before modern medicine. Judith Stillwater wrote: > > I watched the documentary " Trekkies " and from what I could see, the program > Star Trek has a better history of actually helping people to overcome their > problems than 12 step treatment. > Think about it. Anyone who watches Star Trek, think about that world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2000 Report Share Posted May 15, 2000 You said a mouthfull!!!! Thanks, Carol Re: seeing myself > > > > I watched the documentary " Trekkies " and from what I could see, the > program > > Star Trek has a better history of actually helping people to overcome > their > > problems than 12 step treatment. > > > > There are people who have used Star Trek as a way of dealing with chronic > > physical and mental illness. They go to the conventions or write to the > > actors, and share how Star Trek is a part of their lives. And the actors > > are proud of what an important role they play in the lives of these > everyday > > people. > > > > Think about it. Anyone who watches Star Trek, think about that world. > Think > > about what happens to people who are different: they find ways to use > their > > difference to everyone's advantage. Bad guys are the ones who take > advantage > > of the weak. I think those are good messages, good " values " to have in a > > make believe world. > > > > Compare them with the values you learned in AA or treatment or whatever. > > What happens to people who are different in AA? to me it's a lot like > public > > high school: the weak and the different get chewed up and spit out. It's a > > conformity meat grinder. I was a smart kid, and it was not a popular trait > > among my peers. Conformity led to violence perpetrated by those who would > > police what is and is not acceptable. > > > > Judith, talking too much (I should go to On and On and On Anon) > > > > On Sat, 13 May 2000 18:14:41 GMT, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > > > > > Dear Judith > > > > > > You reminded me of the obsession with drink/drugs that sadly and > > bafflingly > > > remains part and parcel of the AA/NA mentality. Firstly, there're are > > the > > > people who seem to get off on juicy shares about just what a fun bad > time > > > > > they had, secondly there are the NA types, typified by bigbrother.org, > > who > > > are clear that drugs are permanently sexy, regardless of status as > " user " > > or > > > " recoverer " . Thirdly, those, like my poor old ex, who spend half > their > > > waking hours wondering if their spouse is drinking or not -- she used > to > > get > > > to me a bit by coming out with " where have you been drinking? " and > > similar > > > when I'd been nowhere near a bar in months on end and neither of us was > > > boozing or using at all for eighteen months unbroken. Out of the blue. > > > Fear, of course, a major symptom of the real disease of the stepNazis. > > > > > > Yours, > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite > > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Win an iMac computer from The Apples in stereo and other > > FREE great stuff at RollingStone.com! > > http://click./1/4023/2/_/4324/_/958244283/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here: > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/958283373/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2000 Report Share Posted May 15, 2000 Funny, I was just exploring pantheist and humanist web sites & found tons of references to Gene Roddenberry (creator or Star Trek), especially on the scientific pantheism page. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: seeing myself >Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:05:24 -0400 > >Now that you mention it, watching (experiencing?) Star Trek is like >taking a hope-filled trip into the future. Going to an AA meeting is >like taking a despairing trip back to a time before modern medicine. > > >Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > I watched the documentary " Trekkies " and from what I could see, the >program > > Star Trek has a better history of actually helping people to overcome >their > > problems than 12 step treatment. > > > Think about it. Anyone who watches Star Trek, think about that world. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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