Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Good call to leave that place. As far as I am aware, you MUST document how the patient made it to the stretcher, we require it! Sorry about the job, Steve Dralle, EMT-P EMSC CES Specialist American Medical Response-San , Texas Ambulate? While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated that it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non-emergency transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. and I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs on ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job but I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Need a medic? Ambulate? > > > While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated that it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non-emergency transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. and I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs on ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. > Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job but I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. > My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? > Annie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 In all the time I've been working in EMS, I have ALWAYS written the exact way a patient managed to arrive upon the stretcher. IMHO, " adjusting " this is falsifying a legal document. Whether the patient walked to the stretcher, stood and pivoted to the stretcher, slid/rolled over to the stretcher, was pulled by a sheet or lifted (bodily or with a backboard), that is how it goes on the report. If a patient ever levitates and floats to the stretcher, well I guess I'll document that, too... 8^) I also had several employers advise me to not say the patient ambulated to the stretcher. I stated that I would not lie on a medicolegal document by altering that fact. If the patient refused to allow us to move them (and was physically capable) or was already standing when we arrived, then that was how the patient got there, and how it was being documented. The one employer accepted my stand on the matter and allowed me to continue to document as such. The other employer DEMANDED I write my reports " correctly " , and stated I would be terminated for " disobedience and failing to adhere to standards " . I told him to take his best shot. I enjoyed my unemployment conpensation and the paid vacation before my new job started. That company got squashed for Medicare fraud 1 year later. It is ALWAYS in your best interest to write your PCR's in an accurate and TRUTHFUL manner. Anything less does you and your patient a disservice, AND may place you in a position of liability for fraud. Just my dos centavos... Barry E. McClung, Paramedic/Crew Chief North Blanco County EMS City, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 We're going to be hiring in Bastrop County. The process will begin next month. Barry E. McClung, EMT-P Field Training Officer Rural/Metro Ambulance - Bastrop County Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Actually, I we are hiring paramedics. You can speak with Mark Southwell at ext 220 if you are interested. Thanks, Steve Re: Ambulate? Need a medic? Ambulate? > > > While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated that it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non-emergency transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. and I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs on ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. > Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job but I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. > My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? > Annie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Baytown has a position open! Jack Re: Ambulate? Need a medic? Ambulate? > > > While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated that it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non-emergency transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. and I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs on ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. > Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job but I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. > My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? > Annie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Thanks guys. I knew I was doing the right thing, I just needed a confirmation of the fact. And this is the third ambulance company that has tried this trick. I'm just trying to keep that patch.Annie Ambulate? > > > > > > While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to > leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated that > it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non-emergency > transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. and > I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs on > ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. > > Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job but > I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. > > My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. > walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the > insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? > > Annie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:58:06 -0600 " Anne Roller " writes: > Thanks guys. I knew I was doing the right thing, I just needed a > confirmation of the fact. And this is the third ambulance company > that has > tried this trick. I'm just trying to keep that patch.Annie We screech about being considered professionals; education and self directed research are only part of the equation. Part of being a professional is maintaining a high ethical standard. If more individuals and organizations chose to take the high ethical road, the " amboolance driver " image would be relegated to the crypts that encase snake oil salesmen, Enron executives, and telephone solicitors :-). Have a happy and safe New Years and enjoy the challenges of 2003! Larry , RN NREMTP Nurse, Teacher, Medic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Annie, Call Hicks at for information. We run 24 hour shifts and have a M-F peak hour unit, out of three stations, serving Bastrop county as exclusive 911 provider.\ We'd be glad to have you come up and apply. Regards, Barry E. McClung, EMT-P Field Training Officer Rural/Metro Ambulance - Bastrop County Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 The term ambulated infers to Medicare medicade that the pt in there opinion the ambulance was not needed and your run will not be paid for, that is why they don't address that wither the run was actually needed or not is not your place to decide and if you employer is Morley correct and ethical would not change your report and is now confined to not get paid and it would be much easer to state pt was transported on soft stretcher and transported to xxx facility the go into the things you found and therapy that was needed and provided in transit and allow the boss to do the rest and there for you have not become involved in the billing part of his her business. This leaves you in a position of if the employer is doing something wrong you are not part of it and you also don't cost a ethical employer any paying runs. God knows you make 3 to 4 free runs for one paying one even if you don't do emergency calls. When I was not in a supervisory position I left the running of the business of an ems agency I worked for alone and only worried about my patient care and the safe and expedient transportation of a patient.When I became aware of an agency not being ethical or even seeming to be other wise I quit and let god sort them out. You seem to be a moral and ethical person and you are going to fined that worrying about the billing department will cost you many jobs just do your job as best you can for the patient and let management be management and go home with a clear conscious at night and fall fast to sleep with no guilt. In other words stay out of management unless you get paid for it and remember if they are breaking the law it is indeed time to find another job. Medicare has no medical personnel doing there input and they have key words they use to reject a bill and none to accept a bill and that is the position you got involved in I don't think it was an attempt to be unlawful, but I don't now and don't want to know who you worked for. Silsbee EMS 114 hwy 96 south Silsbee, Tx 77656 Ambulate? > While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated that it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non-emergency transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. and I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs on ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. > Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job but I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. > My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? > Annie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 You have the same opinion my ex-employer has. However, it is my business to write a run record that can withstand legal scrutiny. My ex-employer was also offering w/c lift services and then sending an ambulance (probably because he doesn't own a w/c van) and then billing for an ambulance with run reports and medical necessity letters gotten after the fact. Moral and ethical aside, I was offended by the remarks that I could not determine the patient's ability to ambulate eventhough the patient answered the door and walked to my stretcher waiting out side. As far as needed or not, other documentation would provide that information. I also wrote " pt. denies any complaints at this time " , And yes, I ask them. Non-emergency calls should be documented just as closely as an emergency call. Annie Ambulate? > > > > While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to > leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated that > it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non-emergency > transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. and > I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs on > ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. > > Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job but > I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. > > My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. > walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the > insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? > > Annie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Seems to me that to 'omit' pertinent information for the sole purpose of obtaining reimbursement from M'care/M'caid is as close to fraud as one can get. The question I would have then, would be, " Has a paramedic ever been charged with M'care fraud for those specific reasons? " Anyone know? If they have, I would be very curious to see the information for that. Most cases I have seen only involve the owner/CEO/operator with repect to sentencing and fines. I had the same issue with a smaller private (no offense to the privates) and left them shortly thereafter. Then there is the whistle blower laws.....one could always dial the 800 number.......... Just my honest one. Mike Anne Roller writes: > You have the same opinion my ex-employer has. However, it is my business to > write a run record that can withstand legal scrutiny. My ex-employer was > also offering w/c lift services and then sending an ambulance (probably > because he doesn't own a w/c van) and then billing for an ambulance with run > reports and medical necessity letters gotten after the fact. Moral and > ethical aside, I was offended by the remarks that I could not determine the > patient's ability to ambulate eventhough the patient answered the door and > walked to my stretcher waiting out side. As far as needed or not, other > documentation would provide that information. I also wrote " pt. denies any > complaints at this time " , And yes, I ask them. Non-emergency calls should be > documented just as closely as an emergency call. Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Falsification of a run report in order to qualify for Medicare funding is a federal felony investigated by the FBI. For the information of all, there is currently a task force of about 40 FBI agents in Texas working on Medicare and Medicaid fraud, and we can expect to see some heads roll probably next year. I know for a fact that the FBI and the Justice Department have had a person from the Bureau orient them to the EMS treatment and billing practices, so they're savvy about what goes on. If you'd like for your company manager to be one of the first to do the " perp walk " I suggest you contact the FBI and tell them what you know. Then contact Greta van Susteren to be there with the cameras when the cuffs go on. Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:16:24 EST wegandy1938@... writes: > > If you'd like for your company manager to be one of the first to do > the " perp walk " I suggest you contact the FBI and tell them what you know. In another thread, we were discussing the 'poor state of leadershi[p' in EMS; this could be an interesting way to remove some of the reasons that EMS is troubled by a lack of ethics. Hopefully, to quote Voltaire, it would 'Encourage the others " to do the right thing. Larry , RN NREMTP Nurse, Teacher, Medic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Ann -- I solved those two problems as follows at our mutual employment by: #1 re: walked/ambulated -- Pt. moved to stretcher whether they walked or scooted across to the stretcher; and #2 re: IV's -- no peripheral venous access due to (i.e., contractures, hematoma at IV site, or whatever the reason) Hope this helps. Carol P.S. Happy New Year to everyone and stay safe if you're working tonight like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 A footnote to my previous response. No intention meant to be dishonest, just meant to document that the patient was moved with assistance when two-person sheet life or whatever was not used. Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Doesn't matter. I quit and am unemployed at present. But the company has several other practices that are being investigated by TDH and the FBI. Peanut butter sandwiches taste better than food at the Pen. love ya, Annie;) Re: Ambulate? > Ann -- > > I solved those two problems as follows at our mutual employment by: > > #1 re: walked/ambulated -- Pt. moved to stretcher whether they walked or > scooted across to the stretcher; and > > #2 re: IV's -- no peripheral venous access due to (i.e., contractures, > hematoma at IV site, or whatever the reason) > > Hope this helps. > > Carol > > P.S. Happy New Year to everyone and stay safe if you're working tonight like > me. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 I would have to agree with you both. I use to work for a place like that, and I refused to state that they were non-ambulatory if they walked to the cot or got up out of a wheel chair and sat on the cot. I think that you did the right thing, and Steve is right, you have to document the way the pt presented to you. I always have and will continue to. WD -- In , " Dralle, Steve " <SDralle@a...> wrote: > Good call to leave that place. As far as I am aware, you MUST document how the patient made it to the stretcher, we require it! > > Sorry about the job, > Steve Dralle, EMT-P EMSC > CES Specialist > American Medical Response-San , Texas > > > > > Ambulate? > > > While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated that it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non-emergency transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. and I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs on ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. > Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job but I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. > My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? > Annie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 You can always pick up the phone and report them to Medicare for fraud, which is what I did, as well as the FBI. Don't know if they are still in business or not, but I know where I was working closed down. For that matter, the GM for their branch where I was, was signing false names to CNM forms. Yet, another phone call. WD -- In , " Anne Roller " <quiltingparamedic@m...> wrote: > Thanks guys. I knew I was doing the right thing, I just needed a > confirmation of the fact. And this is the third ambulance company that has > tried this trick. I'm just trying to keep that patch.Annie > > > Ambulate? > > > > > > > > > While being employed at a " transfer " service, I was recently ordered to > > leave " pt. ambulated to stretcher " off my run reports. The owner stated > that > > it " confuses Medicare/ Medicaid " : that I have no concept of non- emergency > > transport and besides he has a " letter of medical necessity " on his pt. > and > > I am unaware of the pt's true condition. I was also ordered to start IVs > on > > ALL emergency calls. Both of these orders were refused. > > > Unfortunately, the red-headed part of me walked out on yet another job > but > > I am so sick of being a part of what I consider fraud. > > > My question is: is it the customary flow of a run report to state " pt. > > walked/ambulated to stretcher " or do we leave that part off and let the > > insurance companies believe the pt. levitated to the stretcher? > > > Annie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 In response to Gene's post about 40 FBI agents investigating M/M fraud: I got to meet a few of them on a professional level while working for a private service in Uvalde a couple of years ago. I found them to be pleasant, though very inquisistive. My employer had a vastly different opinion of them. BTW, this employer never ordered us to lie on a runsheet, but he was not very concerned if certain facts were not included in the documentation. He is now out of the ambulance business Stevge Pike Re: Ambulate? Falsification of a run report in order to qualify for Medicare funding is a federal felony investigated by the FBI. For the information of all, there is currently a task force of about 40 FBI agents in Texas working on Medicare and Medicaid fraud, and we can expect to see some heads roll probably next year. I know for a fact that the FBI and the Justice Department have had a person from the Bureau orient them to the EMS treatment and billing practices, so they're savvy about what goes on. If you'd like for your company manager to be one of the first to do the " perp walk " I suggest you contact the FBI and tell them what you know. Then contact Greta van Susteren to be there with the cameras when the cuffs go on. Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.