Guest guest Posted July 31, 2000 Report Share Posted July 31, 2000 I read LJ's response to last night, and responded to it. This morning, I still had not seen my post, so I sent a second. I prefer my second response--it's less emotional. Still, I wanted to explain why there are 2 similar responses from me to the same post. Please note that this is an explanation and not an apology. I can't help noticing that when 12 step apologists participate in 12 step free, they seem shocked when someone openly disagrees with them. They seem to have difficulty accepting the idea that anyone could possibly disagree with them. They seem to think I have an obligation to make them feel warm and welcome. It's an extension of the idea that my experience is less valid, less real than theirs. Sometimes it seems they feel that, just because they say they are right, they expect me to accept what they say as the truth. You know, I did that once and I won't get fooled again. One reason I post here is to understand my defensiveness; so I look at this dynamic. The unquestioning acceptance of the 12 step approach to chemical dependence is reflected by this " I'm right because I say I'm right, and if you disagree with me I'll verbally abuse you till you shut up " attitude in individuals. For many years, I asked no questions. I blamed myself for every problem I've ever had. True, it's one way of interpreting my experience, but it's not a particularly helpful or constructive frame of reference--at least, it has not been in my case. I live with a big AA machine in my home state. I can't realistically imagine AA going away overnight in Minnesota. But I can't continue living with myself, and pretending that AA is a good organization. AA hurt me. Saying it's a good organization is like saying it's good for others to hurt me. I have to believe that there are people in AA who have goals similar to mine: to help people learn to live independently and solve their problems in a healthy, constructive way. Ignoring the abuses and excesses associated with *A is not a step in the direction of my goals. judith _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2000 Report Share Posted July 31, 2000 Let go and let God. > I live with a big AA machine in my home state. I can't realistically imagine > AA going away overnight in Minnesota. But I can't continue living with > myself, and pretending that AA is a good organization. AA hurt me. Saying > it's a good organization is like saying it's good for others to hurt me. I > have to believe that there are people in AA who have goals similar to mine: > to help people learn to live independently and solve their problems in a > healthy, constructive way. Ignoring the abuses and excesses associated with > *A is not a step in the direction of my goals. > > judith > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Say Bye to Slow Internet! > http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2000 Report Share Posted July 31, 2000 Allow me to introduce myself. I'm little miss personal insight. I live on the other side of the looking glass, in the land of spontaneous, original thought and emotion. Look to your right-- you will find a small bottle that says " drink me. " To your left is a little cookie that says " eat me. " (now now, don't misinterpret " eat me! " that's not the kind of personal insight I offer!) I know you fear these objects, but the bottle really will not force its contents into your mouth; neither will the cookie force itself down your throat. If you go chasing rabbits, and you know you're going to fall, tell 'em a hookah smoking caterpillar has given you the call... judith, bafflin' em with bullshit > Let go and let God. > > > > > > I live with a big AA machine in my home state. I can't > realistically imagine > > AA going away overnight in Minnesota. But I can't continue living > with > > myself, and pretending that AA is a good organization. AA hurt me. > Saying > > it's a good organization is like saying it's good for others to > hurt me. I > > have to believe that there are people in AA who have goals similar > to mine: > > to help people learn to live independently and solve their problems > in a > > healthy, constructive way. Ignoring the abuses and excesses > associated with > > *A is not a step in the direction of my goals. > > > > judith > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Say Bye to Slow Internet! > > http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html > _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2000 Report Share Posted July 31, 2000 Why? What's He want to do? Nuke XA? Fine. . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: explanation >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:40:24 -0000 > >Let go and let God. > > > > > > I live with a big AA machine in my home state. I can't >realistically imagine > > AA going away overnight in Minnesota. But I can't continue living >with > > myself, and pretending that AA is a good organization. AA hurt me. >Saying > > it's a good organization is like saying it's good for others to >hurt me. I > > have to believe that there are people in AA who have goals similar >to mine: > > to help people learn to live independently and solve their problems >in a > > healthy, constructive way. Ignoring the abuses and excesses >associated with > > *A is not a step in the direction of my goals. > > > > judith > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Say Bye to Slow Internet! > > http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2000 Report Share Posted July 31, 2000 A really simple explanation for your " defensiveness " -- when people are attacked, they defend themselves. There's something wrong if they don't. AA and similar groups twist this natural reaction into " denial " or " hostility. " Damn, if I'm attacked I'm hostile. I don't think it would be healthy if I weren't. If I weren't being attacked and I thought I was, that would be cause for concern. I don't believe that I react that way. Lots of time was spent in treatment trying to convince us poor slobs that defense mechanisms are bad. I completely disagree. It's unhealthy if they're not there, unless you're misinterpreting the " attack " cues. Unfortunately, a lot of time in treatment was also spent pretending counselors weren't attacking me, though I knew they were, so that my behavior wouldn't be interpreted in a way that would give me a poor prognosis, or keep me there for a week or two more. Like you, lots of people probably do convince themselves they are wrong, not the counselors or AA members, and that is such a shame. > I read LJ's response to last night, and responded to it. This > morning, I still had not seen my post, so I sent a second. I prefer my > second response--it's less emotional. Still, I wanted to explain why there > are 2 similar responses from me to the same post. Please note that this is > an explanation and not an apology. > > I can't help noticing that when 12 step apologists participate in 12 step > free, they seem shocked when someone openly disagrees with them. They seem > to have difficulty accepting the idea that anyone could possibly disagree > with them. They seem to think I have an obligation to make them feel warm > and welcome. It's an extension of the idea that my experience is less valid, > less real than theirs. Sometimes it seems they feel that, just because they > say they are right, they expect me to accept what they say as the truth. You > know, I did that once and I won't get fooled again. > > One reason I post here is to understand my defensiveness; so I look at this > dynamic. The unquestioning acceptance of the 12 step approach to chemical > dependence is reflected by this " I'm right because I say I'm right, and if > you disagree with me I'll verbally abuse you till you shut up " attitude in > individuals. For many years, I asked no questions. I blamed myself for every > problem I've ever had. True, it's one way of interpreting my experience, but > it's not a particularly helpful or constructive frame of reference--at > least, it has not been in my case. > > I live with a big AA machine in my home state. I can't realistically imagine > AA going away overnight in Minnesota. But I can't continue living with > myself, and pretending that AA is a good organization. AA hurt me. Saying > it's a good organization is like saying it's good for others to hurt me. I > have to believe that there are people in AA who have goals similar to mine: > to help people learn to live independently and solve their problems in a > healthy, constructive way. Ignoring the abuses and excesses associated with > *A is not a step in the direction of my goals. > > judith > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Say Bye to Slow Internet! > http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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