Re: AA's Getting Honest

[Guest guest]

Thanks,

This post tells me you are deeply for real in re-evaluating AA. I know what

you mean by revulsion at the " all men are equally diseased " stuff, and I've

seen it put other people off. Good luck,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: AA's Getting Honest

>Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 12:25:59 -0400

>

>

> AA's New Time Religion

>

>

> >

> > Good Morning....

> >

> > Told Ken I was happy to have him add me to your list. Have written to

> > Apple, too.

> >

> > What wonderful sites. So clear in their logic and accurate in their

> > descriptions and criticisms of AA.

> >

> > One of the saddest things, I think, about AA, is the How It Works

> > manifest introduced to the newcomer. Soooo many really hurting people,

> > and here I refer only to those who are not court-mandated or

> > intervention forced to attend.

> > Like me, I went because I was ready to quit drinking, period.....All I

> > wanted was to be told how to QUIT. And to be given all the rest of it

> > without being told how to QUIT was pretty depressing. Is it no wonder

> > so many AA's spend years trying to get it all straight.

> >

> > The AA's tell it that it takes at least 5 years for the member to be

> > able to be really honest. I can't help but say it takes 5 years, at

> > least, to be completely brainwashed.

> >

> > What exactly does " being honest " mean in AA?

> >

> > Love to hear your opinion and anyone else's.

> >

>

>I think this question was meant to be directed to the list.

>

>AA is so nebulous with its getting honest part. I can't believe what a

>fool

>I was to keep going because I thought they " had all the answers " and that

> " more would be revealed in time " if I just " kept coming back " .

>

>SMART recovery has a Cost Benefit Analysis, which I consider to be " getting

>honest " about my drinking. I learbned that in about an hour and doing the

>list of costs and benefits of my using and not using was very helpful.

>

>In AA no the other hand, you can go to meetings for years and years without

>ever really hearing anything explained. Getting honest, I think means

>writing down all your past sins and then telling someone else (Steps 4 and

>5). Some people humiliate themselves and tell a whole bunch of AA's at a

>meeting their dark secrets.

>

>One time an AA member convinced me to go to a Men's Big Book 12 Step Study

>meeting. I was so gullible and feeling so powerless at the time that I

>thought I would drink if I said no. At that meeting I heard some

>absolutely

>sickening admissions from one guy. These admissions had nothing at all to

>do with their drinking; however these guys claimed that they were born

>alcoholics and so what they did years before they ever drank were in fact

> " alcoholic behaviors " . I don't mean to offend anyone on this list but

>these

>guys were talking about having sex with a dog. I was sickened and

>shocked,

>not really by his deeds (I'd been in AA for over 5 years at the time and

>had

>met plenty of lunatics), but by the way the other people there treated him.

>The other two dozen or so guys at this AA meeting all seemed to nod or show

>approval that they understood that such deeds were indeed part of our

> " disease " .

>

>I used to think that it really didn't matter whether I considered my

>addiction a disease or not. Now I am starting to see just how damaging the

>disease concept is. I left that meeting really screwed up as I believed

>that I shared the same " illness " as this guy who was into beastialty. I

>felt as " dirty " and awful as that guy because I too was a born addict who

>had all kinds of character defects. In my mind I didn't have a problem

>with

>a learned behavior of drinking but an awful, dirty disease that I was

>completely powerless over.

>

>Chris

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Just reading your account brings back a lot of negative feelings I had

over the years in my trip with AA.

Yeah, I've heard the " with the dog " thing myself and what really brings

one down is to be told that you are really no better than that yourself

bcause you suffer from " alcoholism " ; its the old " not yet by the Grace

of God " reasoning. " No wonder so many of us end up on some phych's

couch!

Years ago I was in a women's group and one of our members just suffered

the loss of her six-year old boy who was dismembered in front of her

house by the local school bus driver who ran over him. I won't

describe the misery this woman was in because I can't.....it was hard

enough to watch.

We were on the 11th Step.....which I never did begin to comprehend and

the women were trying to get herto work it. Her grief was palpable.

Many came upwith doing 4th over her anger towards the bus driver.

Not me, thank god, because I couldn't tell her to do something I didn't

believe myself. I just asked her if part of the pain wasfrom not being

able to save him and feeling that she had abandoned him. (I had four

children of my own, the youngest an 8 year old boy) She nodded yes,and

Istarting crying, too. I told her I understood her feelings.

The most AA had to offer this woman was slogans. Youknow them and I

know them. No one was willing to let this woman suffer and grieve and

just accept and love her til she was able to somehow go on.

No sir! Most people in the groups got perturbed that she couldn't just

work the program, deal with her defects, etc., etc.

AA's make a big show of support at funerals and are " there " for you and

a few will in compassion stick by the mourner but most get on with the

very, very, very serious business of themselves and can't see passed

working their programs to just be human for awhile.

I had another friend whose son drowned at the age of 18. She lft the

program whenshe was told to pray to " god " and be grateful for her

sobriety. She was diagnosed with breast cancer the day they found his

body.

The list goes on and on........

The only real examle of a perfectly working program was a man I'l call

Jake....wile driving drunk one day he heard over the radio of a woman

who had just killed herself and her four chilren...it was his wife and

his children. Because he had a metal plate in his head from a previous

shooting he was not the brightest of people. But he sobered up after

this and stayed sober through AA. He could never pontificate on

anything in the program but accepted what he had done to push his wife

to such extremes and did his best to live a decent life. He always

said " KISS " . We know what that means. And that's all he ever said.

I knew each of these people personally and have not exaggerated their

stories.

I was always " horseshit " as a sponsor and very seldom, but three times,

had I ever tried it. I guess " god " does work in mysterious ways. Ha!

[Guest guest]

>

> I used to think that it really didn't matter whether I considered my

> addiction a disease or not. Now I am starting to see just how

damaging the

> disease concept is. I left that meeting really screwed up as I

believed

> that I shared the same " illness " as this guy who was into

beastialty. I

> felt as " dirty " and awful as that guy because I too was a born

addict who

> had all kinds of character defects. In my mind I didn't have a

problem with

> a learned behavior of drinking but an awful, dirty disease that I

was

> completely powerless over.

>

> Chris

This " disease " diagnosis is the biggest lie in the addiction world.

And it is a BIG lie. Most people believe it because they were

persuaded to believe it.

They called me a high-bottom drunk because i couldn't identify with

the rapists and doggie lovers. They said i just hadn't drank enough

and that my time was just around the corner.

Hearing this over and over again made me lose trust in myself. And

then if I said sonething that was rational, they said it was " the

disease talking " and to ignore it.

The " disease " bullshit can break a person's spirit.

Anywhere but in AA it would be referred to as BRAINWASHING.

I hate them.

[Guest guest]

Wow, I totally misread your response to me the other day. I thought you were

an AA-apologist lurker. I'm always glad when someone proves me wrong about

that kind of assumption. I try not to hate AA but I figure it's not worth my

effort to try too hard. Now, if I saw some evidence of positive reform

within AA, that would be a different story. But all I see is evasive

maneuvering to avoid accountability.

judith

> This " disease " diagnosis is the biggest lie in the addiction world.

> And it is a BIG lie. Most people believe it because they were

> persuaded to believe it.

> They called me a high-bottom drunk because i couldn't identify with

> the rapists and doggie lovers. They said i just hadn't drank enough

> and that my time was just around the corner.

> Hearing this over and over again made me lose trust in myself. And

> then if I said sonething that was rational, they said it was " the

> disease talking " and to ignore it.

> The " disease " bullshit can break a person's spirit.

> Anywhere but in AA it would be referred to as BRAINWASHING.

> I hate them.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi,

I was trying to be sarcastic.

These AA people will take a big complex problem and throw out a over

simplistic formula, like " let go and let God " or " first things first " .

It is sickening how they get away with this stuff.

I hate AA and I know it is a waste to spend time on hating AA but I

think I need to waste a little of my time now in order to heal. (LOL)

I like to joke around, maybe too much.

The AA aproach is so out of touch with reality that I have to joke

about it sometimes. I used to work in an emergency room and

sometimes we had to joke about the horrible things to place a barrier

that life wouldn't be so horrible. AA has been so horrible for me, i

sometimes joke, maybe in an inappropriate way, in order to keep my

sanity.

I still hate AA.

> Wow, I totally misread your response to me the other day. I thought

you were

> an AA-apologist lurker. I'm always glad when someone proves me

wrong about

> that kind of assumption. I try not to hate AA but I figure it's not

worth my

> effort to try too hard. Now, if I saw some evidence of positive

reform

> within AA, that would be a different story. But all I see is evasive

> maneuvering to avoid accountability.

>

> judith

[Guest guest]

I heard of women who woke up in motels and didn't know where they were

or who they were with.....

Of women who were'nt sure of who the father of their children were....

I was aghast.....was this what I was? Only a drink away from THIS?

Of sleeping on benches in a public park?

I was a lot of things, but this???

Who was I to say that I was a good mother?

Just because I hadn't destroyed my kids didn't mean that I wouldn't if I

took a drink....

I was a good mother, and many of my sisters in AA were, too.

Oh, " god " send your kids to Alateen, they need it. Okay, off my teenage

National Honor Society kid went, and came home with a " Yeah, they were

nice, but what were they talking about? " I guess that successful, good

mother, happily married daughter of mine is in denial to this day. If

she had been a royal f-up at the age of 36, she would be accepted and a

perfect adult child of an alcoholic...

But unfortunatley, she is a highly repsedted and well-paid employee of

nationally known insurance company with a brilliant, well-raised child

and a marriage that has lasted 18 years and counting. Such is the

price of denial..

My second child, a son, who I must admit to harming in my insanity of

recovery, has through deterinaton and sheer guts, found a life that

that I respect and admire. That he loves me and treats me with a love I

someties wonder is deserved, leaves me in humility, not because of the

program but because of his decency.

My third child I adore beyone measure and am amazed at her success in

life and her ability to get what she wants and have no shame in the

demands she places on life......

My fourth child, a son was born in sobriety and a to this day is a love

to his siblings and all who are related to him.....

But, I am an " alcoholic " . All that I have ever touched must be

" diseased " . In need of therapy If not, we are all in denial..

My childen, all successful, self-supporting and living their lives as

they choose are not healthy, they are in denial.......they need

help....theyneed intervention, for they are the adult children on an

" alcoholic " . They dont know how sick they really are. If they only

knew how warped they really are from my contagious " disease " , they would

seek help.

Oh, " God " , what can I do to hekp these poor victims of my " disease " .

[Guest guest]

> Hi,

> I was trying to be sarcastic.

> These AA people will take a big complex problem and throw out a over

simplistic formula, like " let go and let God " or " first things first " .

> It is sickening how they get away with this stuff.

> I hate AA and I know it is a waste to spend time on hating AA but I

think I need to waste a little of my time now in order to heal. (LOL)

Yes. Yes, I heartily agree with you. Check this out, I wrote it about a year

ago.

/message/12-step-free/6093

> I like to joke around, maybe too much.

Don't worry about it, I'm just glad you posted again

> The AA aproach is so out of touch with reality that I have to joke about

it sometimes. I used to work in an emergency room and sometimes we had to

joke about the horrible things to place a barrier that life wouldn't be so

horrible. AA has been so horrible for me, i sometimes joke, maybe in an

inappropriate way, in order to keep my sanity.

> I still hate AA.

That's OK by me.

judith

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[Guest guest]

Tinquerbelle@... wrote:

Not me, thank god, because I couldn't tell her

to do something I didn't

believe myself. I just asked her if part of the pain wasfrom

not being

able to save him and feeling that she had abandoned him.

(I had four

children of my own, the youngest an 8 year old boy) She nodded

yes,and

Istarting crying, too. I told her I understood her

feelings.

The most AA had to offer this woman was slogans. Youknow them

and I

know them. No one was willing to let this woman suffer and

grieve and

just accept and love her til she was able to somehow go on.

Hi Tinquerbelle,

While reading your post I was reminded of a touching story I heard once

about a little girl who was being scolded by her parents after returning

home from the elderly neighbors' house one day:

"Where have you been all morning?"

"I've been helping Mrs. ." (Mr.

had passed away the day before.)

"Silly child, what can a little girl possibly do

for Mrs. at a time like this?"

"Well, Mrs. needs to cry, and I've been sitting

on her lap, helping her."

Dave

[Guest guest]

At 03:49 05/08/00 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi,

>I was trying to be sarcastic.

>These AA people will take a big complex problem and throw out a over

>simplistic formula, like " let go and let God " or " first things first " .

>It is sickening how they get away with this stuff.

>I hate AA and I know it is a waste to spend time on hating AA but I

>think I need to waste a little of my time now in order to heal. (LOL)

>I like to joke around, maybe too much.

>The AA aproach is so out of touch with reality that I have to joke

>about it sometimes. I used to work in an emergency room and

>sometimes we had to joke about the horrible things to place a barrier

>that life wouldn't be so horrible. AA has been so horrible for me, i

>sometimes joke, maybe in an inappropriate way, in order to keep my

>sanity.

>I still hate AA.

Q: How many AA members does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: None. If someone says the lightbulb doesn't work, they just aren't

trying hard enough.

A: None. It worked for all those people who came before us and it should

work for us too.

A: None. If we have a problem with the lightbulb, it is us who need to

change...

A: None. That lightbulb may not be perfect, but who are we to judge?

(Etc, ad nauseam)

Joe B.