Guest guest Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 She didn't write any comments on the report but the message said that 241 was the low limit thus I'm to assume my level of 313 is " ok " ? My post was probably very confusing because I didn't send the header. or is 313 the level of a 100+ year old man? Yikes! My doctor had me take this test as a result of some of my health complaints. Kind of a shock to hear your hormones are gone at 46... <sigh> I've read some of the material here and saw that mumps can cause problems in this area. Since I'm the only person I know that has had them twice I suspect this might be a cause. > > > > > > Hi everyone. > > > > I've just gotten my first results from hormone testing. Can any of > > you with knowledge on this subject tell me where I'm at and what > (if > > anything) I should being up with my Doctor when I see her on the > 5th > > of May > > > > % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0 4.0 % > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 313 241 827 ng/dL > > Free Testosterone 10.3 8 30 ng/dL > > > > Thank you! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Hi , and welcome. Some men have profound symptoms of hypogonadism when levels are " low-in-range " . If your symptoms are bad but the doc won't treat you, get a second opinion. Your test results should be followed up with another, more complete panel of tests. They should include T, free T, total estrogens, estradiol (E2), LH, FSH, prolactin, DHEA (or DHEA-S). Your doc may suggest referring you to a specialist, or you might want to seek one for a second opinion anyway. Don't go to the first endocrinologist the doc might suggest, and don't just pick one out of the phone book. See " Finding a Male Hormone Doctor " in the files section here. One difficulty is establishing what should be " normal " for YOU. Very few of us know prior T levels were. T 313 means one thing for a man who came down from 380 in a few years, another for a man who came down from 650. Best, Bruce > > > Hi everyone. > > I've just gotten my first results from hormone testing. Can any of > you with knowledge on this subject tell me where I'm at and what (if > anything) I should being up with my Doctor when I see her on the 5th > of May > > % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0 4.0 % > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 313 241 827 ng/dL > Free Testosterone 10.3 8 30 ng/dL > > Thank you! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Thanks Bruce. Well I've been doing more research and as far as matching the symproms of low T I seem to have all of them with the exception of getting shorter! How radical is the Male HRT? Are the guys doing this cutting edge / weirdos or is this pretty mainstream? I'm a little twitchie about replacing my hormones and possible changing myself. > > > > > > Hi everyone. > > > > I've just gotten my first results from hormone testing. Can any of > > you with knowledge on this subject tell me where I'm at and what (if > > anything) I should being up with my Doctor when I see her on the 5th > > of May > > > > % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0 4.0 % > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 313 241 827 ng/dL > > Free Testosterone 10.3 8 30 ng/dL > > > > Thank you! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Hi , There are several approaches to male HRT. Sometimes mild cases can be helped by diet, weight control, cutting out alcohol and the like. There are also dynamic stimulation therapies using HCG or Clomid to " jump start " natural T production. Then there are several methods of testosterone replacement. Benefits of male HRT obviously have to outweigh risks and headaches. Another choice would be to do nothing, if symptoms are mild and tolerable.. IMO you should use a doctor who is knowledgeable about male HRT, who makes it regular part of his/her practice, and who has experience having treated lots of men. One who goes by the AACE hypognadism guidelines (see the files section). Do not settle for less. Poor HRT, from docs who only think they know what they're doing, can be worse than no treatment at all. You don't want an overly conservative doc (some feel it's their mission to talk men out of hormone therapy). They might consider themselves " mainstream " , but they aren't going to help. Likewise you don't want an over-zealous one who thinks every man should be on HRT, and will start you on treatment whether you need it or not. You want someone who is going to HELP you. IMO that's not radical. By all means get more info. before deciding whether to proceed. In any case it's good medical practice to find out WHY your T is low. Hence the broader range of tests I mentioned. The tests your doc runs next will say a lot about her competence. Best, Bruce > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone. > > > > > > I've just gotten my first results from hormone testing. Can any of > > > you with knowledge on this subject tell me where I'm at and what (if > > > anything) I should being up with my Doctor when I see her on the 5th > > > of May > > > > > > % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0 4.0 % > > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 313 241 827 ng/dL > > > Free Testosterone 10.3 8 30 ng/dL > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Yes, I had it too. I only remember the discomfort in the hours afterwards. –dz- Re: [ ] new member Ok no fair. I had no anesthesia for the biopsy Rhonda Re: [ ] new member > > Hi Bob, the biopsy wasn't too bad but they gave me > Versid and I don't remember a thing. I didn't have any > trouble afterwards except laying on my side for a > couple of hours. I wish I'd brought a book. > The treatment is pretty tough but some people do > real well. The MOST important thing is water. The more > you drink the better you'll do. I'm talking 1 ounce > per 2 pounds body weight every day. at least. > Antidepressants are usually a good idea. I didn't have > problems with depression but I was already on prozac. > And having a good support system is important. > Sorry we had to meet under these circumstances but > welcome to the group. > Sharon > > --- bob <rfiller@...> wrote: > > > > Hi all. I just found out last week that I have hcv. > > I thought that I > > had hep b in 1978, but apparently it was hep c all > > this time. Was > > supposed to have had knee surgery and when pre-op > > blood work was done > > my liver enzymes were sky high. Have since stopped > > drinking alcohol and > > enzyme levels are coming down. My blood work last > > friday said that my > > viral load was 241,000. Not too bad. Am having > > biopsy done on friday > > morning. Some fprm of treatment after that I am > > sure. Anyone have > > anything to tell me about what to expect with biopsy > > procedure & > > treatment options. I work shift work have read a lot > > of horror stories > > about interferon. I have to be able to work my > > shifts. Need info on > > things that will help battle fatigue & depression > > since they seem to be > > the most prevelent. Am scared to death, but want to > > get well. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 , LA FEAT has a new parent support group that is new and is starting May 4th. Also visit their website lafeat.org and email them Q's if you have any. I hope this is in your area and close to you. LA FEAT WESTSIDE COFFEE ESCAPE PLEASE COME JOIN US FOR SOME FRIENDLY CONVERSATION, SUPPORT, INFORMATION, OR JUST SIMPLY TO `ESCAPE' FROM YOUR DAILY ROUTINE. LA FEAT MEMBERS AND NON-MEMBERS, PARENTS, GRANDPARENTS, AUNTS, UNCLES, SIBLINGS, AND FRIENDS OF AUTISTIC CHILDREN ARE ALL WELCOME TO COME DATE: WEDNESDAY, MAY 4 TIME: 9:30AM - ? PLACE: STARBUCKS OVERLAND AND WASHINGTON IN CULVER CITY SPONSORED BY MEMBERS OF LA FEAT (Los Angeles Families for Effective Autism Treatment) Good luck to you on your journey. --- <tenhrkid@...> wrote: > I have three children, one of whom has Aspergers. He > is the middle > child and the most compassionate and loving of the > three. He attends a __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 Thanks for your advice Bruce. I appreciate your comments. It's a pretty weird deal I'm going through. I printed out some of the material here and on some of the other groups. I thought that by reading it and highlighting things that rang true for me (Symptoms) that I might get a better feeling for this. So far I've got a very bright set of pages. The Table of Symptoms of Hypotestosteronaemaia (What a mouthful!) is fairly complete. Loss of Libido. I didn't notice but my wife said loudly YES YOU DO! ED (Althought I thought it was hypertencion meds) Diminished early morning erections? Try NONE! Fatigue and lassitude - Sigh... Increased sweating? Here I wouldn't say so - not all the time anyway. Anxiety - Yes! Reduced sense of well being - Yep. Decline in cognitive function, memory etc. Oh boy. And not a good thing for a guy in my biz. Irritability - HUH? YOUR DAMN RIGHT! ;-) Loss of drive and enthusiasm - <sigh> The Occasional symptoms I've got a majority of and the rest an " I'm not sure " but who measures seminal volume or hair growth etc. Now, the question you had that really put things in a new light was if these problems were cause enough to do anything about them. I read this and can't imagine I ever wondered. Yikes! I think I will bring my files with highlights to her and ask her to flip through them one way or the other. I respect what she has done for me in the past and hope we three will all be on the same frequency when and if she suggests some form of treatment. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone. > > > > > > > > I've just gotten my first results from hormone testing. Can any of > > > > you with knowledge on this subject tell me where I'm at and what (if > > > > anything) I should being up with my Doctor when I see her on the 5th > > > > of May > > > > > > > > % Free Testosterone 3.3 2.0 4.0 % > > > > TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 313 241 827 ng/dL > > > > Free Testosterone 10.3 8 30 ng/dL > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 > Benefits of male HRT obviously have to outweigh risks and headaches. This of course assumes a lot since I'm not being treated for HRT but in the event that does become an option can you give me the 101 on risks and headaches? I understand (I think) the lifetime commitment to whatever the treatment is. What else can you tell me and what would you suggest? My doctor is pretty open to suggestions if I've done my research. For example I had a dry cough with a med and did some internet surfing and found another that looked " good " she checked it out and oked it as a replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Hi, When did you start on the effexor, and when did you come off it? The effects of SSRIs/SNRIs can sometimes last long after you quit. Vornan > Hello. I am 44 years old. 2-1/2 years ago, on the urging of my wife, I > had my T checked. It was very low- around 250 (normal range around > 300-1100). The test was prompted by a vanishing libido. > > I was on effexor and BP meds at the time and the doctor was concerned > that these medications, especially effexor, might be at least > partially responsible for the low libido. So he tapered me off effexor > and onto lexapro (both pills are for anxiety, which I started getting > pretty bad about 15 years ago), and switched me to a different bp > prescription. My libido didn't improve, and during the space of a > couple months my T went even lower, to just about 200. > > He put me on androgel, and I think I felt something improve, but it > was only a fleeting improvement, maybe a day or two. Then I started > feeling even worse and my breasts got tender. So he took me off that > and put me on HCG. > > I was lucky to find this doctor, but unfortunately for me, as soon as > I got the HCG we moved away, so I continued giving myself shots > (500IU, every other day) for about a year. I can't say I really felt > better at all, although my testosterone did go up to about 750. > However, my E2 went up as well- before any therapy it was around 22, > and after a year on HCG it was 42. > > I found another doctor who works with hypogonadism. After seeing him I > stopped HCG injections for a month, and got another blood test. My T > went back to around 200 and my E2 dropped to 22. The doctor then put > me on a compounded T cream. He also had me take DIM to keep my > estradiol low. After two months my T went up to 550 and my E2 crept up > to 26. I had been taking 400mg of Source Naturals DIM every night. I > had read somewhere that it was desirable to keep E2 to approximately > 15, so I upped my DIM to 600mg/day (I think I know better now about E2 > amounts, having read postings and references in the " files " section of > the forum). > > So I've done all of this and I still don't feel better. On occasion I > will have a very fleeting period when I feel a bit of an urge and > sometimes I'll wake up with an erection (maybe once every 3 weeks). > > Based on advice I've gotten from this website, I just bought Indoplex > and will start taking it next week. > > A few other comments and questions to people: > 1. My insurance plan changed and this new doctor is no longer covered. > So I'm seeing another doctor who a) doesn't want to " do " HRT, and > doesn't trust non-endocrinologists with HRT. So I'm not sure how easy > it will be to get blood tests right now. My doctor wouldn't order them > for me because he doesn't think I should be messing around w/this > stuff, and unfortunately, I can't find an endo who will work with me > on this. My other doctor (I'm still in contact with the doctor who put > me on the T cream, and have made arrangements to see him on a cash > basis; however, I don't think my insurance will pay for blood tests > that he orders). So I'm wondering if I can use " feel " as a reliable > indicator of T and E2 levels. I'm counting on the indoplex to do more > for me than the other brand did. > > 2. My second doctor (I'm now on number 3) wanted me on T cream rather > than HCG because he's more familiar with the T cream. Do people think > that HCG is still a better option for people who can make testosterone > with HCG? I kind of think so, but I want to know other peoples' > opinions. > > 3. I find it really frustrating that I've been through all of this > with very little to show for it in terms of libido. The lack of sex is > really taking a toll on my marriage. Any suggestions people can offer > would be appreciated. > > 4. One other question, that's kind of unrelated: for the past 15 years > or so I've had ingrown hairs in my chin that would never disappear. I > went to dermatologists and had liquid nitrogen treatments, and been > given pills and creams, but they would never go away. I mean one would > go away, but almost within a day a new one would take its place > somewhere else on my chin. Anyway, they recently went away completely. > 100%. I haven't had an ingrown hair in months. The only thing this new > development correspond to is me starting testosterone cream and DIM. > I'm wondering if the DIM has anything to do with this. Any thoughts? > > If you think that the ingrown hair was somehow estrogen related, I > then wonder if my testosterone has been getting low for over a decade. > I know that the answer is of course " yes, " but I'm talking about a > bigger than normal drop. > > I also mentioned above that I've had anxiety for the past 15 years or > so. I'm wondering if it's also related to possible low testosterone > for a long period of time. > > My libido has been getting low for a decade or more- it just got > really low within the last 3-4 years. > > Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > > Finally, I want to say that I'm very happy to have found this forum. I > don't read it all the time, but I find useful information on it each > time I do read it. So, thanks to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Jh, My doc told me the " latest " treatment is to start a man out on t shots for 6 months to a year to get levels up and then add in HCG. I have found the new SNRI, cymbalta, to be very helpful with anxiety. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Hi, The medications involved such as blood pressure, anti-anxiety, depression and I think even cholesterol medications can hit you with lowering your T level. Your interest fades with ED effects even though it may not be a total wipe out. They change things like the ease of erections, interest, frequency, duration, sensitivity, etc. Too often people start TRT to cure ED and that is usually wrong. E2 can happen when the body responds to a rising T level. Spurts of T such as patches, creams and injections upsets the body's hormone regulation system and starts converting T to E2 when it sees a ramp up of T. Hormone pellets provide a constant dose 24/7 as they dissolve over 4 months usually avoiding the problem with E2. Pellets under the skin allow you to reach the 800 - 1000 level more easily in my humble opinion. You need to read a good book called " The Testosterone Syndrome " , by Dr. Shippen. You will not believe how important proper high normal T levels can be. It not only helps the sex drive but the brain. The outlook toward sex and the effect of a blowing dress can almost be like a shock when your level is in the high normal range of 800-1000. The normal GP can not help you with hormone therapy. An average endocrinologist is probably not going to be able to determine how to treat you if your regulation of hormones is upset. There are so few good ones in the US. My doctor is Dr. R. Don Gambrell of Augusta GA and his mentor now deceased was Dr. Greenblatt a pioneer in hormone therapy for both men and women since the 50's. They used pellets of crystaline hormone that dissolve under the skin in about 4 months. I mentioned Dr. R. Don Gambrell, Augusta GA who is the best endocrinologist I know of in the US. He will answer questions and your ability to communicate in technical detail will probably allow you to get more help from him to pass on to your GP. He may speak to your GP about your case in a consulting mode if you request some arrangement be made, if possible. I'm not speaking for Dr. Gambrell, but I know him well enough to think such a thing could happen. I am the webmaster of his web site. http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/ An E-mail to him will be your beginning of getting the best help I think you can receive. After some form of TRT is chosen by your doctor such as patches, creams or injections, this can cause trouble too. Some people can not get the hormone to be absorbed correctly. I think the crowd is beginning to all get the message that the dosage needs to be nearly daily for patches and every few days for injections to smooth out the rate of increase. It is the ramping up of T that causes the temporary fantastic erection performance. Once the level stabilizes at the new high level, the ED comes back as it has not been cured. Too often people start TRT to cure ED and that is usually wrong. I wish I had a way for you to ensure good results with your choice of doctors. I must emphasis the importance of reading up on this as you may litterally know more about the subject than some of the doctors you could see who have gotten educated on the subject only by the pharmaceutical reps selling almost worthless products. The patient won't die but will waste a lot of money on the products and stop when he gets no results to his liking. You must be able to pickup on a bad doctor and move on. You have to ask loads of questions about what he found wrong and what alternative treatments he has considered before recommending for you. You must expose his lack of depth if that is the case. Not kidding. ernestnolan > Hello. I am 44 years old. 2-1/2 years ago, on the urging of my wife, I > had my T checked. It was very low- around 250 (normal range around > 300-1100). The test was prompted by a vanishing libido. > > I was on effexor and BP meds at the time and the doctor was concerned > that these medications, especially effexor, might be at least > partially responsible for the low libido. So he tapered me off effexor > and onto lexapro (both pills are for anxiety, which I started getting > pretty bad about 15 years ago), and switched me to a different bp > prescription. My libido didn't improve, and during the space of a > couple months my T went even lower, to just about 200. > > He put me on androgel, and I think I felt something improve, but it > was only a fleeting improvement, maybe a day or two. Then I started > feeling even worse and my breasts got tender. So he took me off that > and put me on HCG. > > I was lucky to find this doctor, but unfortunately for me, as soon as > I got the HCG we moved away, so I continued giving myself shots > (500IU, every other day) for about a year. I can't say I really felt > better at all, although my testosterone did go up to about 750. > However, my E2 went up as well- before any therapy it was around 22, > and after a year on HCG it was 42. > > I found another doctor who works with hypogonadism. After seeing him I > stopped HCG injections for a month, and got another blood test. My T > went back to around 200 and my E2 dropped to 22. The doctor then put > me on a compounded T cream. He also had me take DIM to keep my > estradiol low. After two months my T went up to 550 and my E2 crept up > to 26. I had been taking 400mg of Source Naturals DIM every night. I > had read somewhere that it was desirable to keep E2 to approximately > 15, so I upped my DIM to 600mg/day (I think I know better now about E2 > amounts, having read postings and references in the " files " section of > the forum). > > So I've done all of this and I still don't feel better. On occasion I > will have a very fleeting period when I feel a bit of an urge and > sometimes I'll wake up with an erection (maybe once every 3 weeks). > > Based on advice I've gotten from this website, I just bought Indoplex > and will start taking it next week. > > A few other comments and questions to people: > 1. My insurance plan changed and this new doctor is no longer covered. > So I'm seeing another doctor who a) doesn't want to " do " HRT, and > doesn't trust non-endocrinologists with HRT. So I'm not sure how easy > it will be to get blood tests right now. My doctor wouldn't order them > for me because he doesn't think I should be messing around w/this > stuff, and unfortunately, I can't find an endo who will work with me > on this. My other doctor (I'm still in contact with the doctor who put > me on the T cream, and have made arrangements to see him on a cash > basis; however, I don't think my insurance will pay for blood tests > that he orders). So I'm wondering if I can use " feel " as a reliable > indicator of T and E2 levels. I'm counting on the indoplex to do more > for me than the other brand did. > > 2. My second doctor (I'm now on number 3) wanted me on T cream rather > than HCG because he's more familiar with the T cream. Do people think > that HCG is still a better option for people who can make testosterone > with HCG? I kind of think so, but I want to know other peoples' > opinions. > > 3. I find it really frustrating that I've been through all of this > with very little to show for it in terms of libido. The lack of sex is > really taking a toll on my marriage. Any suggestions people can offer > would be appreciated. > > 4. One other question, that's kind of unrelated: for the past 15 years > or so I've had ingrown hairs in my chin that would never disappear. I > went to dermatologists and had liquid nitrogen treatments, and been > given pills and creams, but they would never go away. I mean one would > go away, but almost within a day a new one would take its place > somewhere else on my chin. Anyway, they recently went away completely. > 100%. I haven't had an ingrown hair in months. The only thing this new > development correspond to is me starting testosterone cream and DIM. > I'm wondering if the DIM has anything to do with this. Any thoughts? > > If you think that the ingrown hair was somehow estrogen related, I > then wonder if my testosterone has been getting low for over a decade. > I know that the answer is of course " yes, " but I'm talking about a > bigger than normal drop. > > I also mentioned above that I've had anxiety for the past 15 years or > so. I'm wondering if it's also related to possible low testosterone > for a long period of time. > > My libido has been getting low for a decade or more- it just got > really low within the last 3-4 years. > > Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > > Finally, I want to say that I'm very happy to have found this forum. I > don't read it all the time, but I find useful information on it each > time I do read it. So, thanks to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Hi and welcome I feel your pain been there and was down with ED, trouble reaching an orgasm, low libido, skin problems rash and hives, low pain in my prostate, trouble peeing up all night going and Panic attacks. I have had low T for over 21 yrs.and been on everything but Hcg. I am primary my testis don't work anymore. When I first joined this group about 2 yrs. ago and read about high E2 Estradiol in men. I got tested and was very high when I got my E2 down I did it on Arimidex 1/2 of a one mg. pill everyday for a month. All of the above problems went away. I was able to have sex with my wife for the first time in over 10 yrs. It was all high E2 but trying to keep it in check was a big problem the Arimidex is to strong and I have gone to low and it is worse then to high. I have been on the gels sense they came out but never felt my old self. I have joint and muscle pain if I don't do shots so my Dr. has mixed them and this was making my E2 problem go nuts. A lot of the guys I talk to have told me to go on just the shots but my Dr. did not want to try doing this so we kept trying upping the gels and the added shots. All this did was make me worse so my Dr. finely gave in and I am now on the shots 150 mgs every week this is the trick to success every week. I have been on shots before some 19 yrs. ago but they were every month then every other week. I was on a roller coaster ride up after the shot then down hill until the next one. Today doing 150 mgs. of Depo T every week I am feeling my best ever. All I can tell you is to keep at it find out what Dr.'s are on your insurance list and start calling. Ask how many men do they treat and if the test for high E2 if so do they use Arimidex to keep it down. I know you are using indolplex/DIM but if they are using Arimidex it is a good indicator they know what they are doing. Also ask if they treat men that are secondary with Hcg. You will know when you have found one. As for what type of TRT should you do I am giving you 2 links to how a Dr. treats men with low T I find this to be a dam good start this men is dam good at what he does. He is about helping his fellow man. http://us.f525.mail./ym/login?.rand=2en4k19hlghb8 http://us.f525.mail./ym/login?.rand=2en4k19hlghb8 Plus have you read the book " The Testosterone Syndrome " by Dr. Shippen get it and read it. I went 15 yrs. unable to have sex and reach an orgasm now I am 61 and my sex life is like it was when I was 20 so stay in there. I use Zinc this helps a lot on the E2 and makes my testis feel fuller and my sperm is much bigger. If the links do not work let me know and I will cut & paste the info in here for you. I also take Cialis 20 mgs. every 72 hrs. as per my Dr. my ED got 80 % better when I got my E2 down and this is working very good I get morning wood every day and can have sex at the drop of a hat. Doing this has also kept my BP down. Phil jh376 <no_reply > wrote:Hello. I am 44 years old. 2-1/2 years ago, on the urging of my wife, I had my T checked. It was very low- around 250 (normal range around 300-1100). The test was prompted by a vanishing libido. I was on effexor and BP meds at the time and the doctor was concerned that these medications, especially effexor, might be at least partially responsible for the low libido. So he tapered me off effexor and onto lexapro (both pills are for anxiety, which I started getting pretty bad about 15 years ago), and switched me to a different bp prescription. My libido didn't improve, and during the space of a couple months my T went even lower, to just about 200. He put me on androgel, and I think I felt something improve, but it was only a fleeting improvement, maybe a day or two. Then I started feeling even worse and my breasts got tender. So he took me off that and put me on HCG. I was lucky to find this doctor, but unfortunately for me, as soon as I got the HCG we moved away, so I continued giving myself shots (500IU, every other day) for about a year. I can't say I really felt better at all, although my testosterone did go up to about 750. However, my E2 went up as well- before any therapy it was around 22, and after a year on HCG it was 42. I found another doctor who works with hypogonadism. After seeing him I stopped HCG injections for a month, and got another blood test. My T went back to around 200 and my E2 dropped to 22. The doctor then put me on a compounded T cream. He also had me take DIM to keep my estradiol low. After two months my T went up to 550 and my E2 crept up to 26. I had been taking 400mg of Source Naturals DIM every night. I had read somewhere that it was desirable to keep E2 to approximately 15, so I upped my DIM to 600mg/day (I think I know better now about E2 amounts, having read postings and references in the " files " section of the forum). So I've done all of this and I still don't feel better. On occasion I will have a very fleeting period when I feel a bit of an urge and sometimes I'll wake up with an erection (maybe once every 3 weeks). Based on advice I've gotten from this website, I just bought Indoplex and will start taking it next week. A few other comments and questions to people: 1. My insurance plan changed and this new doctor is no longer covered. So I'm seeing another doctor who a) doesn't want to " do " HRT, and doesn't trust non-endocrinologists with HRT. So I'm not sure how easy it will be to get blood tests right now. My doctor wouldn't order them for me because he doesn't think I should be messing around w/this stuff, and unfortunately, I can't find an endo who will work with me on this. My other doctor (I'm still in contact with the doctor who put me on the T cream, and have made arrangements to see him on a cash basis; however, I don't think my insurance will pay for blood tests that he orders). So I'm wondering if I can use " feel " as a reliable indicator of T and E2 levels. I'm counting on the indoplex to do more for me than the other brand did. 2. My second doctor (I'm now on number 3) wanted me on T cream rather than HCG because he's more familiar with the T cream. Do people think that HCG is still a better option for people who can make testosterone with HCG? I kind of think so, but I want to know other peoples' opinions. 3. I find it really frustrating that I've been through all of this with very little to show for it in terms of libido. The lack of sex is really taking a toll on my marriage. Any suggestions people can offer would be appreciated. 4. One other question, that's kind of unrelated: for the past 15 years or so I've had ingrown hairs in my chin that would never disappear. I went to dermatologists and had liquid nitrogen treatments, and been given pills and creams, but they would never go away. I mean one would go away, but almost within a day a new one would take its place somewhere else on my chin. Anyway, they recently went away completely. 100%. I haven't had an ingrown hair in months. The only thing this new development correspond to is me starting testosterone cream and DIM. I'm wondering if the DIM has anything to do with this. Any thoughts? If you think that the ingrown hair was somehow estrogen related, I then wonder if my testosterone has been getting low for over a decade. I know that the answer is of course " yes, " but I'm talking about a bigger than normal drop. I also mentioned above that I've had anxiety for the past 15 years or so. I'm wondering if it's also related to possible low testosterone for a long period of time. My libido has been getting low for a decade or more- it just got really low within the last 3-4 years. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Finally, I want to say that I'm very happy to have found this forum. I don't read it all the time, but I find useful information on it each time I do read it. So, thanks to all of you. --------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 Hi, You have hypogonadism but have not had good results with treatment. I suspect there's a reason why hormone therapy hasn't worked, but it remains undiscovered by your past docs. Examples: hCG won't work if your problem is testicular; high SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) could be reducing bioavailable T; high prolactin would screw up any hormone therapy. If you can find an endocrinologist who does hormone replacement therapy, get your doc to refer you to him/her. See " Finding a male hormone doc " in the files section. Many endos know surprisingly little about hypogonadism. If you can't find one who does, maybe it's worth going to one who will at least do a full panel of tests. As far as your present primary care doc goes, dump him and find another covered under your insurance program. Because he isn't helping you. You have a life-disrupting disorder with serious long-term health consequences. It needs to be treated. Bruce > Hello. I am 44 years old. 2-1/2 years ago, on the urging of my wife, I > had my T checked. It was very low- around 250 (normal range around > 300-1100). The test was prompted by a vanishing libido. > > I was on effexor and BP meds at the time and the doctor was concerned > that these medications, especially effexor, might be at least > partially responsible for the low libido. So he tapered me off effexor > and onto lexapro (both pills are for anxiety, which I started getting > pretty bad about 15 years ago), and switched me to a different bp > prescription. My libido didn't improve, and during the space of a > couple months my T went even lower, to just about 200. > > He put me on androgel, and I think I felt something improve, but it > was only a fleeting improvement, maybe a day or two. Then I started > feeling even worse and my breasts got tender. So he took me off that > and put me on HCG. > > I was lucky to find this doctor, but unfortunately for me, as soon as > I got the HCG we moved away, so I continued giving myself shots > (500IU, every other day) for about a year. I can't say I really felt > better at all, although my testosterone did go up to about 750. > However, my E2 went up as well- before any therapy it was around 22, > and after a year on HCG it was 42. > > I found another doctor who works with hypogonadism. After seeing him I > stopped HCG injections for a month, and got another blood test. My T > went back to around 200 and my E2 dropped to 22. The doctor then put > me on a compounded T cream. He also had me take DIM to keep my > estradiol low. After two months my T went up to 550 and my E2 crept up > to 26. I had been taking 400mg of Source Naturals DIM every night. I > had read somewhere that it was desirable to keep E2 to approximately > 15, so I upped my DIM to 600mg/day (I think I know better now about E2 > amounts, having read postings and references in the " files " section of > the forum). > > So I've done all of this and I still don't feel better. On occasion I > will have a very fleeting period when I feel a bit of an urge and > sometimes I'll wake up with an erection (maybe once every 3 weeks). > > Based on advice I've gotten from this website, I just bought Indoplex > and will start taking it next week. > > A few other comments and questions to people: > 1. My insurance plan changed and this new doctor is no longer covered. > So I'm seeing another doctor who a) doesn't want to " do " HRT, and > doesn't trust non-endocrinologists with HRT. So I'm not sure how easy > it will be to get blood tests right now. My doctor wouldn't order them > for me because he doesn't think I should be messing around w/this > stuff, and unfortunately, I can't find an endo who will work with me > on this. My other doctor (I'm still in contact with the doctor who put > me on the T cream, and have made arrangements to see him on a cash > basis; however, I don't think my insurance will pay for blood tests > that he orders). So I'm wondering if I can use " feel " as a reliable > indicator of T and E2 levels. I'm counting on the indoplex to do more > for me than the other brand did. > > 2. My second doctor (I'm now on number 3) wanted me on T cream rather > than HCG because he's more familiar with the T cream. Do people think > that HCG is still a better option for people who can make testosterone > with HCG? I kind of think so, but I want to know other peoples' > opinions. > > 3. I find it really frustrating that I've been through all of this > with very little to show for it in terms of libido. The lack of sex is > really taking a toll on my marriage. Any suggestions people can offer > would be appreciated. > > 4. One other question, that's kind of unrelated: for the past 15 years > or so I've had ingrown hairs in my chin that would never disappear. I > went to dermatologists and had liquid nitrogen treatments, and been > given pills and creams, but they would never go away. I mean one would > go away, but almost within a day a new one would take its place > somewhere else on my chin. Anyway, they recently went away completely. > 100%. I haven't had an ingrown hair in months. The only thing this new > development correspond to is me starting testosterone cream and DIM. > I'm wondering if the DIM has anything to do with this. Any thoughts? > > If you think that the ingrown hair was somehow estrogen related, I > then wonder if my testosterone has been getting low for over a decade. > I know that the answer is of course " yes, " but I'm talking about a > bigger than normal drop. > > I also mentioned above that I've had anxiety for the past 15 years or > so. I'm wondering if it's also related to possible low testosterone > for a long period of time. > > My libido has been getting low for a decade or more- it just got > really low within the last 3-4 years. > > Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > > Finally, I want to say that I'm very happy to have found this forum. I > don't read it all the time, but I find useful information on it each > time I do read it. So, thanks to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 Kirsten first you need a lyme literate dr. I think alot of people in your neck of the woods see my LLMD in MO, Dr Crist. You have to see a LLMD. Yes, what you are experiencing is a herx and normal. You seem to be on 2 many meds at one time that is why you are feeling really bad. They can take it slower. Also the sauna kills the bugs too so you are herxing from this as well. -- [ ] new member Hello everyone, I'm in an information gathering phase and am happy to have found this group My story is as follows: I was disgnosed with Lyme 5 years ago. I had become very ill and by the time the test came back positive, I could not move my head nor arms due to pain. I was treated with 21 days of tetracycline. About 2 years ago I saw a podiatrist due to severe pain in my feet. A long trail of doctors landed me at a rheumatologist who said I had rheumatoid arthritis. For a year I took various RA drugs-- methotrexate, enbrel, humira prednisone to no avail. During that year the pain spread to my hands, certain muscles and knees, elbows and upper back on occasion. I take pain meds to get through my day, and took a medical leave from work. I am fortunate to have a supportive family (husband, parents and three daughters). I finally saw a new rheumatologist who took many vials of blood and believes I may have chronic Lyme, or undertreated disease. He put me on minocin, ceftin and plaquinel pending the tests coming back. I stopped all the other drugs and started the antibiotics a week ago. I do some alternative therapy-- my husband built me a sauna, and I use it three times a week, plus physical therapy in a pool three times a week. A nutritionist gave me supplements and I have vastly altered my diet. I am now feeling 5 times worse. The new doctor says this is normal-- I have looked up the herxheimer reaction (sp) and have some understanding of this. I'm quite frightened, and angry about all the changes I have had to make in my life due to this mystery illness and pain. I am certain many of you have experienced similar issues, and look forward to getting to know others. Right now, I would love to hear other experiences with chronic Lyme, and the antibiotic therapy. Thank you very much for your time! Kirsten, MN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 In a message dated 5/3/2005 2:46:16 PM Central Standard Time, fsmfarms@... writes: I think alot of people in your neck of the woods see my LLMD in MO, Dr Crist. You have to see a LLMD. I've never heard of this, and haven't had any doctor know of a " LLMD " ..... please send me more information. And what is " MO " .... Missouri??? Thanks in advance Do I need to wait until the test results are back, before seeing another doctor? Kirsten in Minnesota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Welcome Lee: Sure hope you are looking to get your Total T level up where it belongs. You are certainly NOT in range for a 39 year old man. The only depression I suffered was when I experienced the first limp dick of my life. It made me so furious, I immediately called my doctor and insisted he give me his first available appointment. How some guys can let that go by as if its nothing I do not understand. Not being able to get an erection is FAR WORSE than breaking my neck in my book, yet -- to hear some of the guys on this group talk you'd think their limp dicks were no more serious than a hangnail to them. And those guys that let it happen twice -- how can you do that? Some guys have stated that they let it go by for months on into years -- I would commit suicide if I had to suffer with a limp dick 2 days in a row, much less a week, month or years!!! I do not understand that kind of denial. I've been on TRT for 8 months now (using 25 Gram compounding pharmacy testosterone cream) and, as long as I take my Cialis-20 every other day I am like I was since age 11 -- a regular sex maniac. I have never had any medical problems of any kind, my weight has never been out of control -- I feel like a million bucks. Hope you will seriously check into getting your T-level up into the range for a man of your young years. Take care and keep in touch. Best Regards, Gene --- patrolbase18 <patrolbase18@...> wrote: --------------------------------- Hello my name is lee. After almost a year of testing and drug therapy my levels are finally in range. I've been through it all. From patch to androgel to finally depo injections. I'm 39 and healthy. I guess its time to help other people at least with some information as well as maybe gaining more. I've been as low as 92 and now in range with my last test at 577. I'm interested in what guys have to say about other symtoms such as depression and weight gain. Additionally, I was wondering how people finally figured out where the problem was other than the sexual side. Of course the usual stuff about side effects and long term use would be helpful. thanks lee --------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Lee- For me the pronounced symptoms were: Exhaustion, very bad memory- " Foggy Brain " , and had a chip on my shoulder at work- lost a lot of social capital over the course of a year. Sex was possible, but not exciting for me. I figured it out when I started lifting weights and the symptoms got a little better- I knew weight lifting can raise T production so that pointed me to learning about low T. Glad you are doing well and glad to have you on the group! Dano > Hello my name is lee. After almost a year of testing and drug therapy > my levels are finally in range. I've been through it all. From patch to > androgel to finally depo injections. I'm 39 and healthy. I guess its > time to help other people at least with some information as well as > maybe gaining more. I've been as low as 92 and now in range with my > last test at 577. > > I'm interested in what guys have to say about other symtoms such as > depression and weight gain. Additionally, I was wondering how people > finally figured out where the problem was other than the sexual side. > Of course the usual stuff about side effects and long term use would be > helpful. > > thanks > > lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Dano, Pretty much the same thing for me. Exhaustion was the big thing. I could sleep for 12 hours on the weekend and get up and would want to doze on the couch. As far as strength goes I saw a major decline over 3-4 years. I play adult baseball and 5-6 years ago was able to compete in the 18-28 league. I saw my batting average decline to almost zero and my running speed drop to a poke. Looking back now I seek when it all started. Depression was the other thing that really hit me. I blamed it on a lot of other things like a bad marriage and a job that was drudgery but I had not been that way in the past. It took the doc to explore that part and realize there was a physical reason for it. Once I got on therapy and I got on a good cycle almost all of my symptoms are gone. I get side effects from the shots but they are only a minor issue. Acne and some moodiness when I'm at the peak of my dose but no " roid rage " here. thanks for the info Lee dano2718 <no_reply > wrote: Lee- For me the pronounced symptoms were: Exhaustion, very bad memory- " Foggy Brain " , and had a chip on my shoulder at work- lost a lot of social capital over the course of a year. Sex was possible, but not exciting for me. I figured it out when I started lifting weights and the symptoms got a little better- I knew weight lifting can raise T production so that pointed me to learning about low T. Glad you are doing well and glad to have you on the group! Dano > Hello my name is lee. After almost a year of testing and drug therapy > my levels are finally in range. I've been through it all. From patch to > androgel to finally depo injections. I'm 39 and healthy. I guess its > time to help other people at least with some information as well as > maybe gaining more. I've been as low as 92 and now in range with my > last test at 577. > > I'm interested in what guys have to say about other symtoms such as > depression and weight gain. Additionally, I was wondering how people > finally figured out where the problem was other than the sexual side. > Of course the usual stuff about side effects and long term use would be > helpful. > > thanks > > lee --------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Hi Lee d, Welcome to the group - you will find this group both beneficial from an information standpoint but also from a " your not alone " stand point. For me it started with becoming anemic. I would get exhausted when I would run or do anything strenuous. The Doc put me on iron and told me to quit giving blood so often. This did help but then the sex side effects were kicking in like ED and lack of desire. Started looking for info on the internet and found this group. Educated myself and made an appointment with my urologist. That was ~ 5 months ago and I am still working on that sweet spot of balancing everything out, but life is so much better. I too tried the patches and gel and ended up giving myself shots. I like this the best and have seen the best results. Now I am working on E2 management. I really have not seen and negative side affects with the shots. Currently taking 100 mg every 7 days to the thigh, 50 mg of zinc and 2 mg of copper daily, and I have ordered some indoplex with DIM. Dan in Arkansas lee d <patrolbase18@...> wrote: Dano, Pretty much the same thing for me. Exhaustion was the big thing. I could sleep for 12 hours on the weekend and get up and would want to doze on the couch. As far as strength goes I saw a major decline over 3-4 years. I play adult baseball and 5-6 years ago was able to compete in the 18-28 league. I saw my batting average decline to almost zero and my running speed drop to a poke. Looking back now I seek when it all started. Depression was the other thing that really hit me. I blamed it on a lot of other things like a bad marriage and a job that was drudgery but I had not been that way in the past. It took the doc to explore that part and realize there was a physical reason for it. Once I got on therapy and I got on a good cycle almost all of my symptoms are gone. I get side effects from the shots but they are only a minor issue. Acne and some moodiness when I'm at the peak of my dose but no " roid rage " here. thanks for the info Lee dano2718 <no_reply > wrote: Lee- For me the pronounced symptoms were: Exhaustion, very bad memory- " Foggy Brain " , and had a chip on my shoulder at work- lost a lot of social capital over the course of a year. Sex was possible, but not exciting for me. I figured it out when I started lifting weights and the symptoms got a little better- I knew weight lifting can raise T production so that pointed me to learning about low T. Glad you are doing well and glad to have you on the group! Dano > Hello my name is lee. After almost a year of testing and drug therapy > my levels are finally in range. I've been through it all. From patch to > androgel to finally depo injections. I'm 39 and healthy. I guess its > time to help other people at least with some information as well as > maybe gaining more. I've been as low as 92 and now in range with my > last test at 577. > > I'm interested in what guys have to say about other symtoms such as > depression and weight gain. Additionally, I was wondering how people > finally figured out where the problem was other than the sexual side. > Of course the usual stuff about side effects and long term use would be > helpful. > > thanks > > lee --------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Glad you are getting it normalized- I've found now I just need time to relax and ruminate about how much I've lost in the past few years and how subtly it got so bad. But it's all getting better now. FWIW- I wouldn't call it a cycle - that's what body builders do - go on and off their " cycle " - HRT is for life. Casual sports with friends also deteriorated as I got sick to where I knew something was way off. > > Hello my name is lee. After almost a year of testing and drug therapy > > my levels are finally in range. I've been through it all. From patch to > > androgel to finally depo injections. I'm 39 and healthy. I guess its > > time to help other people at least with some information as well as > > maybe gaining more. I've been as low as 92 and now in range with my > > last test at 577. > > > > I'm interested in what guys have to say about other symtoms such as > > depression and weight gain. Additionally, I was wondering how people > > finally figured out where the problem was other than the sexual side. > > Of course the usual stuff about side effects and long term use would be > > helpful. > > > > thanks > > > > lee > > > > > --------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 You're right cycle is a bad adjective. Schedule may be a better one. I can best describe it as a roller coaster of meds. First I was on two weeks between shots and then the doc made me go cold turkey for 6 weeks to get a bottom reading for my T. Then I went to three weeks between shots - that was almost as bad. Felt good for two weeks and then cratered. Up and down for 3-4 months. Finally got fed up and gave him an ear full of pleading and had the test results to back it up. Now I'm reasonably normal test results and I am feeling much better. I'm curious though what everone else's normal range is. At 39 yo and a test of 577 I still don't feel 100% but then I haven't been 100% in some time. What does everyone else think normal is?? L dano2718 <no_reply > wrote: Glad you are getting it normalized- I've found now I just need time to relax and ruminate about how much I've lost in the past few years and how subtly it got so bad. But it's all getting better now. FWIW- I wouldn't call it a cycle - that's what body builders do - go on and off their " cycle " - HRT is for life. Casual sports with friends also deteriorated as I got sick to where I knew something was way off. > > Hello my name is lee. After almost a year of testing and drug therapy > > my levels are finally in range. I've been through it all. From patch to > > androgel to finally depo injections. I'm 39 and healthy. I guess its > > time to help other people at least with some information as well as > > maybe gaining more. I've been as low as 92 and now in range with my > > last test at 577. > > > > I'm interested in what guys have to say about other symtoms such as > > depression and weight gain. Additionally, I was wondering how people > > finally figured out where the problem was other than the sexual side. > > Of course the usual stuff about side effects and long term use would be > > helpful. > > > > thanks > > > > lee > > > > > --------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Lee: You can find a chart of what your Total T level should be, by age, at this website: http://www.natural-hrt.com/andropause04.html Ideally, you should be in the upper third range for optimum well being. Everyone's mileage varies -- my total T is hanging around the upper 1200s -- low 1300's right now. As long as I keep the E2 and Prolactin under control, I'm ornery as ever! Welcome again Lee! Best Regards, Gene >> What does everyone else think normal is?? > > L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 I'm 39 also and on my last blood test mine was 434. It's been as high as 1157 in November 2004 and dropped down to 606 in March. But I really didn't feel any different at 1157 than I do now at 434. I still feel like crap. I would still like to get back up towards 1000 but I don't know how I'm going to get that done. > > > Hello my name is lee. After almost a year of testing and drug > therapy > > > my levels are finally in range. I've been through it all. From > patch to > > > androgel to finally depo injections. I'm 39 and healthy. I guess > its > > > time to help other people at least with some information as well > as > > > maybe gaining more. I've been as low as 92 and now in range with > my > > > last test at 577. > > > > > > I'm interested in what guys have to say about other symtoms such > as > > > depression and weight gain. Additionally, I was wondering how > people > > > finally figured out where the problem was other than the sexual > side. > > > Of course the usual stuff about side effects and long term use > would be > > > helpful. > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > lee > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 , You may want to start reading the FAQ's then read here: http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/HOW_TO_hair_test.html http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/ANDY_INDEX.html#supplements http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/Andy_dose_sched.html Two wonderful books and websites are: " Children with Starving Brains " by Jaquelyn McCandless, MD http://www.autism-rxguidebook.com/DesktopDefault.aspx This will help explain biomedical intervention better and her website is wonderful too. We use digestive enzymes www.enzymestuff.com (read the excerpt of the book " Enzymes for Autism and other Neurological Conditions " by DeFeliece) from www.houstonni.com And if you want to learn more about the thimerosal/autism connection: www.evidenceofharm.com and purchase the book to read!!! I would have hair samples of your children done to determine toxicity. You will learn more about this on the first link above. Welcome! Jackie--- > I'm a new member. About two weeks ago, we had my 4 1/2 year old son > seen by a speech therapist. He has had trouble with Speech Development > and we wanted to give him a little help with young 5's kindergarten > coming in the fall. Our 3 1/2 year old son was with us and the speech > therapist felt that he showed signs of Autism. This began our research > of Autism and our stumbling upon Mercury Poisoning and Thimerisol. > We've started some diet changes for our 3 boys: 4 1/2, 3 1/2, and 10 > months and will be seeking mercury detox eventually. All information > will be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 , Welcome to the list. Glad you found us. A couple books you may want to read: " Evidence of Harm " by Kirby (just out) and " What Your Doctor May NOT Tell You About Childhood Vaccines " by Cave, MD. Make sure your kids don't get any mercury amalgam dental fillings and that you and your wife don't get any more. S S <tt> I'm a new member. About two weeks ago, we had my 4 1/2 year old son <BR> seen by a speech therapist. He has had trouble with Speech Development <BR> and we wanted to give him a little help with young 5's kindergarten <BR> coming in the fall. Our 3 1/2 year old son was with us and the speech <BR> therapist felt that he showed signs of Autism. This began our research <BR> of Autism and our stumbling upon Mercury Poisoning and Thimerisol. <BR> We've started some diet changes for our 3 boys: 4 1/2, 3 1/2, and 10 <BR> months and will be seeking mercury detox eventually. All information <BR> will be greatly appreciated. <BR> <BR> Are their any legal proceedings in the process concerning Immunizations <BR> and Thimerosol.<BR> <BR> I found a good website: www.generationrescue.org<BR> <BR> I'll be very interested to be part of the cummunication.<BR> <BR> <BR> -<BR> Flat Rock, MICHIGAN<BR> <BR> <BR> </tt> <br><br> <tt> =======================================================<BR> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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