Massage

[Guest guest]

Nice note on training the massage therapists to do CA work.

In Arizona back office CA's have to have a certain amount of board certified training before they can legally work with patients. Does Oregon require such training for them to work in the back office.

Anglen

[Guest guest]

I have hired and used massage therapists in my practice for many years.

I pay between $12-15 dollars per hour for their services.They are guaranteed

3-4 hours per half day shift, and help with front desk, copying, etc, when

they do not have patients to see.

I recognize that they can generate $60 per hour in their own practices.

The massage therapists generally work for me for a period of time, varies

from 1 year to 11 years, and most of them eventually develop their private

practice and then leave me

My massage therapists get trained to have a CA license as well. I also train

them in the use of Frequency Specific Microcurrent, extensive variations on

soft tissue release techniques, and in teaching my patients exercise rehab.

Part of why they like about working for me is the constant continuing

education.

Having the massage therapists provide these services upgrades what I am able

to do. Instead of just a quick 2 minute review of exercise and giving them a

handout, the LMT will take 10-20 minutes to extensively watch the patient do

the exercise, and really coach them. the microcurrent is another time

intensive procedure that I would not have time to do myself.

Marc

Marc Heller, DC

mheller@...

www.DrMarcHeller.com

Re: massage

I hired a massage student 3 days a week. She is better than any

massage therapist, Ive known, She is a licensed CA, can help with

therapies, front desk, etc, I pay her 11.00/hour and she generates

75.00/hour.

Dennis Nowack DC

> To All

> For all of you who have massage therapists in your office or have

had. I would like to have some idea of how you pay them. Do you

hire them as an employee and pay them and hourly wage? Is it

possible that you pay them piecework?or do you have some other

amazing and mutually beneficial agreement. We are currently in

negotiations with our massage therapist and would like any input

that you may have.

> Rodney

OregonDCs rules:

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foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

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2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

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it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or

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her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

yes, CA licensure requires 6 hours of training, rather minimal

Marc Heller, DCmheller@...www.DrMarcHeller.com

-----Original Message-----From: ang320@... [mailto:ang320@...]Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Re: massageNice note on training the massage therapists to do CA work.In Arizona back office CA's have to have a certain amount of board certified training before they can legally work with patients. Does Oregon require such training for them to work in the back office. Anglen OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

I have tried accupuncture, and felt that it had not helped. I had it done

by a very reputable Indian woman in our Pain Clinic, too.

As for the massage, my back is very severe, and my doctor is afraid that

massage could rile up the disk situation. I would do it if it were done by a

P.T., though. That is because I did have some therapy that involved here

" working " the knots out of my back muscles. That particular therapy has a

name,

which I can not conjure up at the moment.

That day at the doctor's, I hadn't even mentioned massage when he spurted

out that comment!

Carole M. (the elder)

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

that release thing does not sound familiar.

Carole

[Guest guest]

Carole, was the work you had done called Myofascial Release? I haven't tried

it, but it sounds interesting.

Sharon

Re: massage

Hi Robin,

I have tried accupuncture, and felt that it had not helped. I had it done

by a very reputable Indian woman in our Pain Clinic, too.

As for the massage, my back is very severe, and my doctor is afraid that

massage could rile up the disk situation. I would do it if it were done by a

P.T., though. That is because I did have some therapy that involved here

" working " the knots out of my back muscles. That particular therapy has a

name,

which I can not conjure up at the moment.

That day at the doctor's, I hadn't even mentioned massage when he spurted

out that comment!

Carole M. (the elder)

[Guest guest]

revaddict wrote:

> It's

> a little sore today from all that stress. I sure hope this helps.

me too!! ouch! it is a bummer that both the injury and the remedy

hurt like heck!

:*carolyn.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Welcome to the group.

I had 3 cervical facet injections a week and 1/2 ago, they helped

somewhat, but I need it done to several more joints, which I am

planning in the next 2 weeks.

I think one hour of massage is way too much for your neck and

back. Also you should feel good afterwards, not more sore. Don't go

back until this flare is over. And then don't let him work on you so

long. I was in Physical Therapy recently and eventually I had to

tell him to stop with the massage on my upper back because it was

making the sore spots even more sore and they wouldn't release. He

couldn't do my neck at all because it spasmed even with gentle

massage. I think the reason my neck was so sensitive was because of

the inflamed facet joints which my doctors failed to diagnose after

many months. I finally saw another doctor, who knew right away.

I don't know how sensitive your neck is. But does your insurance

cover Physical Therapy. Last year, before my neck got really, really

bad, I had a physical therapist, who did mobilization, a bit of

shoulder massage and myofacial release in my neck area and that

really helped and I felt great afterwards. However, if your neck is

super sensitive, it may not help in which case you might want to try

accupuncture. This is gentle, no massage and does help to relax

muscles. It will not help with the facet joint problems though.

Rochelle

In neck pain , Merlich

<cruisintheseas@...> wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I am new the group and wanted to say hi. I am a 47 year old

with cervical facet syndrome. I also had shoulder surgery last Sept

for a torn rotator cuff, and bone spur.

> I had cervical facet joint injections on the right side of my

neck 2 weeks ago. It helped alot. I have tight knots on my neck

and upper back, and bursitis in my right shoulder now. Several

people suggested massage. My insurance covers it at the

chiropractors office, so I started going last week. I am booked

once a week. He commented on how tight I was, and did an hour on

just my back and neck. I am so sore now though, and I have more

pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the

massages. I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night.

Not sure if this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Don't quit your job - take classes online and earn your degree

in 1 year. Start Today

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Welcome to the group.

I had 3 cervical facet injections a week and 1/2 ago, they helped

somewhat, but I need it done to several more joints, which I am

planning in the next 2 weeks.

I think one hour of massage is way too much for your neck and

back. Also you should feel good afterwards, not more sore. Don't go

back until this flare is over. And then don't let him work on you so

long. I was in Physical Therapy recently and eventually I had to

tell him to stop with the massage on my upper back because it was

making the sore spots even more sore and they wouldn't release. He

couldn't do my neck at all because it spasmed even with gentle

massage. I think the reason my neck was so sensitive was because of

the inflamed facet joints which my doctors failed to diagnose after

many months. I finally saw another doctor, who knew right away.

I don't know how sensitive your neck is. But does your insurance

cover Physical Therapy. Last year, before my neck got really, really

bad, I had a physical therapist, who did mobilization, a bit of

shoulder massage and myofacial release in my neck area and that

really helped and I felt great afterwards. However, if your neck is

super sensitive, it may not help in which case you might want to try

accupuncture. This is gentle, no massage and does help to relax

muscles. It will not help with the facet joint problems though.

Rochelle

In neck pain , Merlich

<cruisintheseas@...> wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I am new the group and wanted to say hi. I am a 47 year old

with cervical facet syndrome. I also had shoulder surgery last Sept

for a torn rotator cuff, and bone spur.

> I had cervical facet joint injections on the right side of my

neck 2 weeks ago. It helped alot. I have tight knots on my neck

and upper back, and bursitis in my right shoulder now. Several

people suggested massage. My insurance covers it at the

chiropractors office, so I started going last week. I am booked

once a week. He commented on how tight I was, and did an hour on

just my back and neck. I am so sore now though, and I have more

pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the

massages. I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night.

Not sure if this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Don't quit your job - take classes online and earn your degree

in 1 year. Start Today

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I have herniated discs at c3-4,C4-5, & C5-6. when I had massage by the

physical therapist, I would get kind of nauseated after and a little dizzy. He

stopped it because he said my disc was unstable and the massage could be making

the muscle pull around the disc and put more pressure on the nerves. But it

sure felt good at first! But if you don't have discs involved, maybe it's a

position issue. Be sure to check with an MD.

I feel like there's just no winning no matter what I do. The good stuff

usually turns out bad.

Good luck to you, Dee

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I have herniated discs at c3-4,C4-5, & C5-6. when I had massage by the

physical therapist, I would get kind of nauseated after and a little dizzy. He

stopped it because he said my disc was unstable and the massage could be making

the muscle pull around the disc and put more pressure on the nerves. But it

sure felt good at first! But if you don't have discs involved, maybe it's a

position issue. Be sure to check with an MD.

I feel like there's just no winning no matter what I do. The good stuff

usually turns out bad.

Good luck to you, Dee

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new

house payment

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Dee mentioned body position dring the massage. I would not be able

to be massaged for an hour face down because my neck would hurt too

much. Of course now I realize that was from the inflamed facet

joints. The last PT used a massage chair where you are at a 45

degree angle for the massage. This was much more comfortable.

However, he still massaged too long. I'm afraid I had the same

problem with the accupuncturist, who needed me to be face down for

20 minutes while the needles worked their magic. There was always a

spot on the left side of my neck that hurt like the dickens - once

again I know now it was the inflamed facet joint.

Rochelle

-- In neck pain , Green Darner

<swampgirl55@...> wrote:

>

> Hi ,

> I have herniated discs at c3-4,C4-5, & C5-6. when I had massage

by the physical therapist, I would get kind of nauseated after and a

little dizzy. He stopped it because he said my disc was unstable

and the massage could be making the muscle pull around the disc and

put more pressure on the nerves. But it sure felt good at first!

But if you don't have discs involved, maybe it's a position issue.

Be sure to check with an MD.

> I feel like there's just no winning no matter what I do. The

good stuff usually turns out bad.

>

> Good luck to you, Dee

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo -

Calculate new house payment

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Dee mentioned body position dring the massage. I would not be able

to be massaged for an hour face down because my neck would hurt too

much. Of course now I realize that was from the inflamed facet

joints. The last PT used a massage chair where you are at a 45

degree angle for the massage. This was much more comfortable.

However, he still massaged too long. I'm afraid I had the same

problem with the accupuncturist, who needed me to be face down for

20 minutes while the needles worked their magic. There was always a

spot on the left side of my neck that hurt like the dickens - once

again I know now it was the inflamed facet joint.

Rochelle

-- In neck pain , Green Darner

<swampgirl55@...> wrote:

>

> Hi ,

> I have herniated discs at c3-4,C4-5, & C5-6. when I had massage

by the physical therapist, I would get kind of nauseated after and a

little dizzy. He stopped it because he said my disc was unstable

and the massage could be making the muscle pull around the disc and

put more pressure on the nerves. But it sure felt good at first!

But if you don't have discs involved, maybe it's a position issue.

Be sure to check with an MD.

> I feel like there's just no winning no matter what I do. The

good stuff usually turns out bad.

>

> Good luck to you, Dee

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo -

Calculate new house payment

>

>

[Guest guest]

.....don't stop now! Massage is a wonderful tool for long term

health. I've been a regular for years so I can tell you it will get

better with regular treatment. That said, I often feel sick afterward

if I forget to drink at least 1 big bottle of water. Think of it this

way....your body was just flooded with lactic acid and you want to

wash it out. If you don't, you'll feel sick and tired until your body

gets rid of it.

>

I am so sore now though, and I have more pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the massages.

I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night. Not sure if

this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

[Guest guest]

.....don't stop now! Massage is a wonderful tool for long term

health. I've been a regular for years so I can tell you it will get

better with regular treatment. That said, I often feel sick afterward

if I forget to drink at least 1 big bottle of water. Think of it this

way....your body was just flooded with lactic acid and you want to

wash it out. If you don't, you'll feel sick and tired until your body

gets rid of it.

>

I am so sore now though, and I have more pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the massages.

I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night. Not sure if

this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you everybody. I did drink a liter of water afterwards, but will add

another bottle after the next one. I will give it a second chance. I just

don't understand why I have such tight knots on my neck and upper back.

I will tell him to take it a little easier next time.

mail4misha <mail4misha@...> wrote:

.....don't stop now! Massage is a wonderful tool for long term

health. I've been a regular for years so I can tell you it w ill get

better with regular treatment. That said, I often feel sick afterward

if I forget to drink at least 1 big bottle of water. Think of it this

way....your body was just flooded with lactic acid and you want to

wash it out. If you don't, you'll feel sick and tired until your body

gets rid of it.

>

I am so sore now though, and I have more pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the massages.

I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night. Not sure if

this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms

[Guest guest]

Thank you everybody. I did drink a liter of water afterwards, but will add

another bottle after the next one. I will give it a second chance. I just

don't understand why I have such tight knots on my neck and upper back.

I will tell him to take it a little easier next time.

mail4misha <mail4misha@...> wrote:

.....don't stop now! Massage is a wonderful tool for long term

health. I've been a regular for years so I can tell you it w ill get

better with regular treatment. That said, I often feel sick afterward

if I forget to drink at least 1 big bottle of water. Think of it this

way....your body was just flooded with lactic acid and you want to

wash it out. If you don't, you'll feel sick and tired until your body

gets rid of it.

>

I am so sore now though, and I have more pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the massages.

I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night. Not sure if

this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think in my case that the knots in my upper back and spasming

muscles at the side of my neck may be due to inflamed facet joints.

When my neck was feeling really good, the knots in my upper back

practically disappeared and then with my recent bout with facet

joint inflamation came back with a vengence. Also the muscle spasm

at the side of my neck is better after the facet joint injection.

I'm hoping my next injections will lead to further improvement.

Rochelle

P.S. Has your neck pain from the massage improved?

-- In neck pain , Merlich

<cruisintheseas@...> wrote:

>

> Thank you everybody. I did drink a liter of water afterwards, but

will add another bottle after the next one. I will give it a second

chance. I just don't understand why I have such tight knots on my

neck and upper back.

> I will tell him to take it a little easier next time.

>

>

> mail4misha <mail4misha@...> wrote:

> .....don't stop now! Massage is a wonderful tool for

long term

> health. I've been a regular for years so I can tell you it w ill

get

> better with regular treatment. That said, I often feel sick

afterward

> if I forget to drink at least 1 big bottle of water. Think of it

this

> way....your body was just flooded with lactic acid and you want to

> wash it out. If you don't, you'll feel sick and tired until your

body

> gets rid of it.

>

>

> >

> I am so sore now though, and I have more pain than when i started.

> > Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the massages.

> I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night. Not sure if

> this is normal when first starting or not.

> > Thanks

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as

$579/mo. Intro-*Terms

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think in my case that the knots in my upper back and spasming

muscles at the side of my neck may be due to inflamed facet joints.

When my neck was feeling really good, the knots in my upper back

practically disappeared and then with my recent bout with facet

joint inflamation came back with a vengence. Also the muscle spasm

at the side of my neck is better after the facet joint injection.

I'm hoping my next injections will lead to further improvement.

Rochelle

P.S. Has your neck pain from the massage improved?

-- In neck pain , Merlich

<cruisintheseas@...> wrote:

>

> Thank you everybody. I did drink a liter of water afterwards, but

will add another bottle after the next one. I will give it a second

chance. I just don't understand why I have such tight knots on my

neck and upper back.

> I will tell him to take it a little easier next time.

>

>

> mail4misha <mail4misha@...> wrote:

> .....don't stop now! Massage is a wonderful tool for

long term

> health. I've been a regular for years so I can tell you it w ill

get

> better with regular treatment. That said, I often feel sick

afterward

> if I forget to drink at least 1 big bottle of water. Think of it

this

> way....your body was just flooded with lactic acid and you want to

> wash it out. If you don't, you'll feel sick and tired until your

body

> gets rid of it.

>

>

> >

> I am so sore now though, and I have more pain than when i started.

> > Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the massages.

> I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night. Not sure if

> this is normal when first starting or not.

> > Thanks

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as

$579/mo. Intro-*Terms

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

I get very tight muscles and knots in my neck and shoulders, especially that big

muscle where your neck and shoulders meet. My chiro told me that it's from my

reversed cervical curve in my neck. There really is nothing that I can do

except go for chiro treatments which I don't like because my body gets almost

addicted to it. I always thought of going for a massage but was nervous.

Please let me know how you make out in the future if you don't mind. Have you

ever gotten an MRI done on your neck?

Jenie

Merlich <cruisintheseas@...> wrote:

Thank you everybody. I did drink a liter of water afterwards, but will add

another bottle after the next one. I will give it a second chance. I just

don't understand why I have such tight knots on my neck and upper back.

I will tell him to take it a little easier next time.

mail4misha <mail4misha@...> wrote:

.....don't stop now! Massage is a wonderful tool for long term

health. I've been a regular for years so I can tell you it w ill get

better with regular treatment. That said, I often feel sick afterward

if I forget to drink at least 1 big bottle of water. Think of it this

way....your body was just flooded with lactic acid and you want to

wash it out. If you don't, you'll feel sick and tired until your body

gets rid of it.

>

I am so sore now though, and I have more pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the massages.

I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night. Not sure if

this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo.

Intro-*Terms

[Guest guest]

No MRI yet. I also have gone to the chiropractor, and it really helps, but i

have to go weekly. My pain doctor (who i also work for) is dead set against

neck adjustments, and feels that there is a risk of stroke. It happened to a

wife of a friend of his. I am much better today than i was on Saturday after my

massage. I am going to give it one more try in 2 weeks and if i am worse

afterwards, I am going to cancel the rest of them.

I had facet joint injections on my neck a few weeks ago, and am now pain

free...seems like it has moved down to my mid and lower back now. LOL...traded

one for the other

Thank you for all of your kind replies. This is a great group.

---------------------------------

Sponsored Link

Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms

[Guest guest]

Hi sorry for the late welcome but welcome to the group. I am

sorry to be so late but I have re-injured my back and I just had a

double fusion 6 months ago. So far nothing is helping it get better

and its been over 2 weeks so I am getting worried. As for your

massage, I used to get them on a regular basis for my lower back and

neck pain BUT I always warned whoever did it to be very careful of

certain sore spots. I had already learned the first few times I had

one done that if they massaged me too hard in those spots I would be

worse afterwards. I am betting that is what happened to you. If you

have spots that really hurt when you massage them yourself then tell

whoever does your massage NOT to do much on those areas. And if you

feel it hurting when you are getting a massage then tell them to

STOP right away. A massage can be a little painful when you are very

tight and stiff BUT for it to hurt very much is not going to help

you it will just make you hurt worse as you found out. Most-mssage

therapist do not want to hurt an injured person and will be careful

to do anything you ask them NOT To do. I hope by now you are feeling

better and have found a therapist that will treat you a little

better. Again welcome to the group sorry for the delay in welcoming

you I just haven't been able to sit online much. I Am sorry that

pain has brought you here but you couldn't find a more wonderful

caring bunch of people than in this group.-- In PainInTheNeck-

Back , Merlich <cruisintheseas@...> wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I am new the group and wanted to say hi. I am a 47 year old

with cervical facet syndrome. I also had shoulder surgery last Sept

for a torn rotator cuff, and bone spur.

> I had cervical facet joint injections on the right side of my

neck 2 weeks ago. It helped alot. I have tight knots on my neck

and upper back, and bursitis in my right shoulder now. Several

people suggested massage. My insurance covers it at the

chiropractors office, so I started going last week. I am booked

once a week. He commented on how tight I was, and did an hour on

just my back and neck. I am so sore now though, and I have more

pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the

massages. I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night.

Not sure if this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Don't quit your job - take classes online and earn your degree

in 1 year. Start Today

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi sorry for the late welcome but welcome to the group. I am

sorry to be so late but I have re-injured my back and I just had a

double fusion 6 months ago. So far nothing is helping it get better

and its been over 2 weeks so I am getting worried. As for your

massage, I used to get them on a regular basis for my lower back and

neck pain BUT I always warned whoever did it to be very careful of

certain sore spots. I had already learned the first few times I had

one done that if they massaged me too hard in those spots I would be

worse afterwards. I am betting that is what happened to you. If you

have spots that really hurt when you massage them yourself then tell

whoever does your massage NOT to do much on those areas. And if you

feel it hurting when you are getting a massage then tell them to

STOP right away. A massage can be a little painful when you are very

tight and stiff BUT for it to hurt very much is not going to help

you it will just make you hurt worse as you found out. Most-mssage

therapist do not want to hurt an injured person and will be careful

to do anything you ask them NOT To do. I hope by now you are feeling

better and have found a therapist that will treat you a little

better. Again welcome to the group sorry for the delay in welcoming

you I just haven't been able to sit online much. I Am sorry that

pain has brought you here but you couldn't find a more wonderful

caring bunch of people than in this group.-- In PainInTheNeck-

Back , Merlich <cruisintheseas@...> wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I am new the group and wanted to say hi. I am a 47 year old

with cervical facet syndrome. I also had shoulder surgery last Sept

for a torn rotator cuff, and bone spur.

> I had cervical facet joint injections on the right side of my

neck 2 weeks ago. It helped alot. I have tight knots on my neck

and upper back, and bursitis in my right shoulder now. Several

people suggested massage. My insurance covers it at the

chiropractors office, so I started going last week. I am booked

once a week. He commented on how tight I was, and did an hour on

just my back and neck. I am so sore now though, and I have more

pain than when i started.

> Will this go away and get better, or should i stop the

massages. I felt a little sick afterwards, and dizzy last night.

Not sure if this is normal when first starting or not.

> Thanks

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

YES, by a BEAR! ;o)

###

rasheedaas <rasheedaas@...> wrote:

Well I sure second everything you say about massage.

When I had a litle more money I used to get them when I could afford to.

I was living with the Sikhs then, and they do great massages! I've

always said if everyone could get a massage once a week, we'd have no war.

{don't you think GBush needs a hug?}

ellen

> > >

> > > I agree with you, Ellen, especially where this person does not

> > *clearly* have Lyme. I think all of us need to learn as much as we

> > can so that we can make informed decisions regarding our health

care.

> > >

> > > But I would also point out that both Buhner and Dr. K do recommend

> > antibiotics in the treatment of Lyme Disease. I don't have Buhner's

> > book handy, but do remember reading that, while he is

> > anti-antibiotics, he sees the need in Lyme Disease. Dr. K

recommended

> > abx for Lyme sarcoidosis - don't know if he recommends it otherwise.

> > >

> > > We also have to remember that natural substances carry their own

> > risks, and can be just as dangerous as man-made substances.

They are

> > not benign.

> > >

> > > In the end, we pays our money and takes our chances.

> > >

> > > D.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Bored stiff? Loosen up...

> Download and play hundreds of games for free on Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

lol.

At least you didn't say -

by a man-eating shark.

e

> > > >

> > > > I agree with you, Ellen, especially where this person does not

> > > *clearly* have Lyme. I think all of us need to learn as much as we

> > > can so that we can make informed decisions regarding our health

> care.

> > > >

> > > > But I would also point out that both Buhner and Dr. K do recommend

> > > antibiotics in the treatment of Lyme Disease. I don't have Buhner's

> > > book handy, but do remember reading that, while he is

> > > anti-antibiotics, he sees the need in Lyme Disease. Dr. K

> recommended

> > > abx for Lyme sarcoidosis - don't know if he recommends it otherwise.

> > > >

> > > > We also have to remember that natural substances carry their own

> > > risks, and can be just as dangerous as man-made substances.

> They are

> > > not benign.

> > > >

> > > > In the end, we pays our money and takes our chances.

> > > >

> > > > D.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Bored stiff? Loosen up...

> > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Games.

> >

> >